Nadal might accomplish more, but to me Federer is the greater player

i remember ralph going through sets on clay/hard where he missed like one or two first serves total.

i know he isnt roddick, but that is still amazing execution..and guys just cant return his serve...even the great djokovic has issues with nadal's serve.
 
i did not say he isn't talented. i said he is less talented than federer. and that is why he appeals more to me.

but you said that Nadal gives us mortals hope. I don't think you can say that about an uber-talent like Nadal. I remember watching 17 year old Nadal lose in three competitive sets to Hewitt at the 2004 AO and afterwards he got a standing ovation and both Mcenroe and Hewitt sang praises about his abilities in the oncourt interview. So, I have always considered Nadal to be one of the most talented guys on tour.
 
but you said that Nadal gives us mortals hope. I don't think you can say that about an uber-talent like Nadal. I remember watching 17 year old Nadal lose in three competitive sets to Hewitt at the 2004 AO and afterwards he got a standing ovation and both Mcenroe and Hewitt sang praises about his abilities in the oncourt interview. So, I have always considered Nadal to be one of the most talented guys on tour.

he gives me hope because through him, i can appreciate how hard work can overcome talent gaps.
 
he gives me hope because through him, i can appreciate how hard work can overcome talent gaps.

the gap in talent between federer and nadal isn't that big.

Nadal was a tennis prodigy.

the guy when he was 15 years old was bossing around albert costa ( a former RG champ) on clay and thrashed moya when he was still a teenager.

you make it sound like nadal is david and federer is goliath.

Not really.
 
the gap in talent between federer and nadal isn't that big.

Nadal was a tennis prodigy.

the guy when he was 15 years old was bossing around albert costa ( a former RG champ) on clay and thrashed moya when he was still a teenager.

you make it sound like nadal is david and federer is goliath.

Not really.

look. lets not just even talk about the talent. lets look at how he had changed his game and worked on it to catch up with Federer. that in itself, is such inspiration already.
 
Great posts from both TheFithSet and objectivity. It was great to see both perspectives.

I also would like to add something. A few months ago I remember scrolling through some interview and Rob Koenig made an interesting statement. He said Federer was like the cricket player Sachin Tendulkar. In that he had the stats, records, trophies and the resume and he was the best in the business. Nadal on the other hand was like Shoaib Akthar (I hope I spelled that right I'm not a cricket buff), in that he was a match winner! If everything was on stake you would bet on him. When the going got tough Nadal would find a way to pull through and win the big matches while Federer like Tendulkar pleased the crowd with pure shot making magic and just dominated the sport like no other.

Also objectivity you are right in that Nadal is not as naturally talented as Federer but in no way does that mean he gives is hope. There is no way any of us could pull off 1/4th of what Nadal does on our best day. Nadal's talent is criminally underrated around here.
 
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I have to say, the bolded part is something I absolutely never understood. If Federer was in the 99th percentile in terms of talent, Nadal would be in the 97th or 98th. I think he is extremely talented. You hear people complain about technology (racquets, strings) making things too easy for players, but tell me this, why can't other players, despite having 11 oz racquets strung with poly strings, do what Nadal can? For me, the answer to that question is that Nadal is supremely talented. Nadal plays like a demon and I can't say he gives me hope as a mortal. When I want that, I re-watch Gilles Simon's finest performances.

I totally agree. I find it hard to believe that some posters think Nadal is not as talented as Federer. "Talent" is not all about hiting many winners as possible or playing beatifully. Nadal is super talented because of his incredible forehand, the great passing shots of both wings ( I personally think he is the best in history at making passing shots), pinpoint accuracy serves, solid groundstrokes and great defence, superhuman stamina and not to mention his mentall toughness that is second to none. He is also a big match player and can win matches against his opponents when he is not playing that well. If these qualites is not talent, then what is it?
 
TheFifthSet: Bang on target.

Now in terms of talent: I don't see any logic in rooting for someone along the lines of talent , whether the talent be more or less.
You cannot measure it in any absolute terms. For example, try as he might, Federer just cannot move like Nadal on clay. That takes natural feel for the surface, so doesn't that give Nadal that edge in terms of talent there?

Similarly, try as he might, Nadal cannot slice nearly as well as Federer does. Doesn't that give Federer an edge?

The point I'm trying to make is that talent is a subjective premise.

Why do I like Roger? Contrary to popular reasons, it is because I believe he works extremely hard. If you looked at Roger's temperament in his early days you would know he absolutely did not have what it took to be anything more than a one-time Wimbledon-winner. It took him extreme training of his mind and a good dosage of perspective (Peter Carter's untimely demise) to get his head straight. But he is still a very emotional guy. And it shows. He's not a macho man. Nadal is actually a lot more cool-headed despite being more expressive on the court.

Now I'll come to the central reason of why I think Roger is better. Because I think he's an artist. And no, not an artist in terms of 'talent' alone although he obviously has that in spades. An artist in terms of pure love for the game. The sort I have never seen before. I've never seen anyone express themselves through the game better than Federer does. He's a lot more creative of the two. Nadal reminds me of a machine. Federer is actually more human. And being human allows him to be more creative. Winning is important to him and make no mistake, he's an extremely disciplined guy. But creating is just as important. Federer wants to win using the entire geometry of the court, expanding his arsenal all the time and USING every shot he has in the bag.
Nadal plays to win or compete.
Federer imo, plays to win but more than that he plays for the sheer love of the game. He loves reaching and squeezing out every bit of potential he has and that which the game inherently offers. If that weren't the case, he'd have retired, and never risked having losing records against the younger generation. And this in turn helps him to do things with an innate sense of integrity. One which I believe Nadal never had. His love for the game is what makes me his fan. Everything else is secondary.

Another reason is that I love his sense of independence. He is his own person and won't take anyone's opinion as the final verdict on anything without reasoning it out. Nadal and Toni often act like mouth-pieces of one another and it's almost astonishing to watch given Nadal's age. He's not that young anymore.
 
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Don't care how many trophies Nadal takes home(especially in THIS era), I can't consider him greater than Federer, sorry.
If some section of tennis fans don't wanna call Fed as the GOAT,Fine that's their lookout.
Fed is and always will be the GOAT imo until a player comes along and takes tennis to a new level (much like Roger did when he burst on the scene ) but I can't see how that can happen because Fed brought a multitude of attributes that when combined make him the GOAT in most tennis fans's mind.

Nadal's game has little to no variety,plays the same style on every surface and profits because they favour his ugly playing style, he would've got slaughtered without his Babolauncher in the 90s, would've lost on clay too.
 
I'm going to have to play the Devil's advocate here, and mention string/racquet technology.....?

everybody plays with the same equipment these days.

i dont see anyone today playing like nadal and hitting with the same spin/speed combo.

Federer had the best spin/speed combo but he has regressed.

My apologies, what I meant was in respect to Brugera and that generation. Technology has assisted the current generation of players in the example you gave.
 
nadal-federer-final-comic.jpg

Don't rub it in so much.............:twisted:
 
I totally agree. I find it hard to believe that some posters think Nadal is not as talented as Federer. "Talent" is not all about hiting many winners as possible or playing beatifully. Nadal is super talented because of his incredible forehand, the great passing shots of both wings ( I personally think he is the best in history at making passing shots), pinpoint accuracy serves, solid groundstrokes and great defence, superhuman stamina and not to mention his mentall toughness that is second to none. He is also a big match player and can win matches against his opponents when he is not playing that well. If these qualites is not talent, then what is it?

I am with you. I don't understand the "talent" thing. I guess because I wasn't vested in anybody before Nadal came to prominence, so I wasn't paying attention to any particular person on tour.

The first time I saw Nadal play I was astounded. Nobody had ever literally knocked my socks off like that.

And nothing about that has changed. I think he has all of the elements that you named and I totally concur.
 
My take:

I don't see a talent gap between any of the Big 4. I simply see them as having different skill sets.

The reason I see Nadal as the most talented is because everyone else plays a copied style. It is a style that's been around for years and is now being refined.

Nadal plays a game that no one has ever played, and definitely if they did (someone back in the day that I never heard of) they weren't anywhere near as successful with.

Imitation isn't as impressive to me, as being a prototype.
 
My take:

I don't see a talent gap between any of the Big 4. I simply see them as having different skill sets.

The reason I see Nadal as the most talented is because everyone else plays a copied style. It is a style that's been around for years and is now being refined.

Nadal plays a game that no one has ever played, and definitely if they did (someone back in the day that I never heard of) they weren't anywhere near as successful with.

Imitation isn't as impressive to me, as being a prototype.

You don't believe Federer is more talented than Murray? :confused:
 
My take:

I don't see a talent gap between any of the Big 4. I simply see them as having different skill sets.

The reason I see Nadal as the most talented is because everyone else plays a copied style. It is a style that's been around for years and is now being refined.

Nadal plays a game that no one has ever played, and definitely if they did (someone back in the day that I never heard of) they weren't anywhere near as successful with.

Imitation isn't as impressive to me, as being a prototype.

Nadal is basically a Borg 2.0 look at the stroke comparisons. There is a talent gap in the top 4. Fed and Murray would be the most gifted by Nadal and Djokovic are more hardworking. Nadal had said numerous times that he never possessed the natural talent of Federer.
 
My take:

I don't see a talent gap between any of the Big 4. I simply see them as having different skill sets.

The reason I see Nadal as the most talented is because everyone else plays a copied style. It is a style that's been around for years and is now being refined.

Nadal plays a game that no one has ever played, and definitely if they did (someone back in the day that I never heard of) they weren't anywhere near as successful with.

Imitation isn't as impressive to me, as being a prototype.

his completely unique style is something i totally agree. his game is really completely unique. unfortunately its something not everyone here agrees with.
 
Nadal's game isn't unique. A huge topspin forehand, good movement, stamina is something the clay courters of the 90's possessed etc...He's no more original than Federer.
 
Nadal is basically a Borg 2.0 look at the stroke comparisons. There is a talent gap in the top 4. Fed and Murray would be the most gifted by Nadal and Djokovic are more hardworking. Nadal had said numerous times that he never possessed the natural talent of Federer.

Absolutely laughable to say that Murray is more talented than Nadal. Andy himself would laugh his *** off at you. Nadal was considered much more of a prodigy at a very young age than Murray ever was. Murray also puts in a lot more time in the gym IMO than Nadal, he had to build his fitness step by step whereas for Nadal it came naturally. Silly to say that Murray works less hard than Nadal IMO. If Murray is so talented, why can't he consistently hit a good forehand (which is basically true, sad as it seems. He either has to push or ball bash with that stroke unless he is playing REALLY well) or a good second serve?

On the subject of equipment, an important thing to remember is that poly strings helped Federer a LOT. When Federer used to play with a full head of gut he made an INCREDIBLE number of unforced errors. Federer is naturally a very loose playing player, without poly strings its very possible that he would have just been totally unable to string points together off the ground on a consistent basis at the top level. When Federer switched to his current hybrid string bed his baseline game immediately improved. Same thing happened with Serena in 2012.
 
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This isn't a hate thread, mind you. I think what Nadal has accomplished this year is phenomenal. While it has caused me a fair bit of anguish, since it has deprived Fed and Nole of a lot of success, there is no denying that Rafa has had a year for the ages, considering the circumstances. I concede, albeit with reluctance, that Nadal may very well be remembered as the best/most accomplished of his era. His achievements speak for themselves.

Regardless, I can't ever see him as being "greater" than Fed for the same reason I can't view Ted Williams as being greater than DiMaggio. It's a subjective thing, I guess, and I wouldn't fault anyone for vehemently disagreeing with me. What any reasonable person can admit, though, is that this era was tailor made for Nadal. That's not his fault, and there's a fine line between admitting that and not acknowledging his rightful status in the annals of tennis history, which is as one of the greatest ever. But let it be known: there is pretty much literally nothing that could have been done to assure Nadal had more success in this era, other than avoiding the injury bug. Same goes, unfortunately, for Novak, which is a drag to admit. The courts are slower now than they have been at any point in tennis history. The racquet technology enables players to hit shots from defensive positions and return them with interest in a way it never has before. It used to be that on indoor courts, once you took charge in a rally, the other player would have to produce something special to neutralize the point. Now, you see guys merely bunt the ball back while on their back foot,in an extremely awkward position, and the ball will land on the back of the line and the point will be on level terms once more. It's so seamless and commonplace that long rallies with seemingly "amazing" gets barely register in the minds of most tennis fans. The balance of power has shifted, some might say irrevocably, to the defensive-minded player. That's why, to me, there isn't much parity in today's game. Once you've learned how to play on one surface, you've learned how to play on all of them. There are no single-surface specialists, because the adjustments you would have to make from one surface to another have been rendered all but obsolete. That's why todays "all-surface" players are anything but.

That doesn't diminish Nadals accomplishments for me, but it does add some clarity as to how he was able to be so successful despite playing the same type of game on every surface, employing the same rudimentary game plan for years without any seismic adjustments. I hope people reading this thread can see the difference between me hating on Nadal and me attempting to explain why he hit the jackpot playing in todays game.

Sure, Nadal to date has conquered his rivals. That script might be re-written at some point. After all, it wasn't until age 29-30 that the narrative of Federer only losing to Nadal consistently was changed. But it probably won't be. Nadal has a stranglehold on nearly all of his significant rivals. Colour me extremely impressed, but not shocked; after all, in this era once you learn how to play on one surface you learn how to play on them all. In that same vain, once you learn how to master one style of play (a margin-based counter-punching game with occasional offense), you master them all. That's the main reason I can't buy into the notion that the competition tennis has gotten much much stronger in the past 5 years, approaching a level we have never seen before. The level of baseline play is indeed unprecedented, but the all-court component is gone, due in large part to the technology and gradual death of fast surfaces. What's so gaudy about that? That's like if the NBA abolished the 3 point line. It'd go from a league with a good balance between rim-attackers and shooters to a league dominated by guys driving to the hole all game long. In that league, players like Bird, Petrovic and Reggie Miller wouldn't look so hot anymore. After all, why work on a skill that simply isn't relevant anymore? Volleys, chip and charges, stealthy approaches, and to an extent slice backhands, they are all merely complementary skills to have. Nothing more, nothing less. That is just absurd to me. Right now, if you are the best baseliner in tennis, you are the best PLAYER in tennis. It's a startlingly tight correlation. In the 90s, that didn't guarantee you were the best. Oh sure, Agassi and Chang were plenty successful.


But Sampras was the undisputed player of the 90s. Borg was the greatest baseliner of his era and the greatest player, but he served and volleyed at Wimby and developed a workmanlike net game. Laver was the greatest of his era but Rosewall was his superior from the back of the court, many would argue. Laver compensated for this by improving his running forehand and developing a lethal drive BH to combat Rosewall's slice. In other words, these guys couldn't fall back on their mastery of one facet of the game. On paper, Nadal will rival all of these players. Heck, he might be better whichever way you'd wanna argue it. But to me, I'll always feel that the Nadal-breed of players got the lions share of the luck playing in today's game. Meaning, baseliners with topspin-rife shots and counterpunching tendencies.

How does this tie in with Federer? Simply put, I am of the belief that if you put him in any era, he would be immensely successful. He is a jack of all trades in the same way Laver was. He beat Sampras serving and volleying. He beat Djokovic, Agassi, Murray and to a lesser extent Nadal from the back of the court in the biggest stages of the game. His variety ensured that he would be utterly dominant on fast and medium speed courts, and tremendously successful on slow ones (and don't tell me there are still lightning fast courts in todays game). At his peak you simply could not serve the man off the court. His defensive return was almost as good as Agassi's offensive return. His passing shots were elite on all surfaces. He took your time away on fast surfaces. On slow ones, you were guaranteed a war of attrition if intended to rally with him.

I believe his net game was underrated. It wasn't as great as Pete's or Rafters or Edbergs, but (of course) in this era it didn't need to be. That's why his net game during Wimby 2001 was better than it was when he was in his prime. Why hone a skill that wasn't all that necessary anymore? All I know is, many tried defeating Sampras using his own his own game during his reign at Wimbledon. Only two succeeded. And the other one might've had the best or second best first serve of his era, and possibly one of the 10 best overall serves of all time (Krajicek). Federer didn't have that luxury, especially at 19 when his serve was still developing. That counts for something.

Anyways, I'm not gonna say that i KNOW that Fed could dominate in any era and Nadal wouldnt, because to speak with such conviction is the mark of a foolish man. I merely believe it to be the case. I believe that Nadal, to dominate from the 60s-90s to the same extent that he did in the 2000's, he would had to have dramatically altered his game. Could he have been able to? Knowing his resolve, I wouldn't put it entirely past him. But I also believe that Federer wouldn't have to undergo any significant paradigm shift to succeed anywhere, on any surface and in any conditions. His game is timeless in a way that Nadal's isn't. While I have limitless respect for Nadal's prowess as a player, Federer has already proven (to me) that he is the greater player. Just one guys opinion.

It was a very nice post. I loved reading every line and I have to say I read it thrice before I reply to this. Mainly because it's not only well written but sums up my points also. It's all that I wanted to say ever

As a kid who didn't know anything about Tennis when I started watching Stefan Edberg decades ago, it was a big let down when the man retired. It was such a joy to watch him. Pete sampras was another player I loved. Tennis is going in a direction that I don't like. It has started getting boring watching endless rallies. I think the day Roger Federer retires will be a real sad day for Tennsi
 
Interesting view you've indicated generally.

Rafa will always be more consistent due to his playing style (net clearance being one area). However, it may even diminish when (and if) he plays when he's 32.

But is it even true in any case? Let us compare Fed in 2006 and Rafa in 2010 if Fed is really making more errors.

I would like to see some stats.
 
Nadal is basically a Borg 2.0 look at the stroke comparisons. There is a talent gap in the top 4. Fed and Murray would be the most gifted by Nadal and Djokovic are more hardworking. Nadal had said numerous times that he never possessed the natural talent of Federer.

What does "hard working" mean in your context? If you mean it is the ability to grind your opponents down to win points and win matches, than it is part of their "talent". Like I said in my prevous post, "talent" is not all about flashy shots or beautiful style.
 
I am with you. I don't understand the "talent" thing. I guess because I wasn't vested in anybody before Nadal came to prominence, so I wasn't paying attention to any particular person on tour.

The first time I saw Nadal play I was astounded. Nobody had ever literally knocked my socks off like that.

And nothing about that has changed. I think he has all of the elements that you named and I totally concur.

Talent is where you get better results with the same effort you put in. Your natural given abilities.
And Nadal seems to put a lot more effort and mental effort compared to Fed. But we can't prove that. Maybe Fed trains more than Rafa. Who knows. But if Rafa said in his book, he thinks Fed was born to play tennis, I guess it has to be true.

But, so what. That doesn't matter. It evens out in the end. Talented people are usually not mentally as strong, cuz they get results easier. And also they are more lazy, since they feel they don't need to work as hard.

Talent has positive and negative effects. The most successful people in the world aren't the most talented. I think, this is a fact.

But you are right. This talent thing is exaggerated. Why do we praise people for talent? They didn't do anything to get it. It's just pure luck, they were born with it. Why should some people be entitled to results, just because of talent?

As much as I love Fed, I'm happy that Rafa has proven that the world makes sense. I don't want to live in a world where talent owns hard work. Because this would be discriminating and admitting some people have "noble" blood and are better.

I think it's fair that hard work owns talent. If I had to chose between Feds talent and Rafas hard work, I would chose Rafa. Talent can't make you good it's not a guarantee. It's just potential. But hard work can guarantee you great results.
 
Absolutely laughable to say that Murray is more talented than Nadal. Andy himself would laugh his *** off at you. Nadal was considered much more of a prodigy at a very young age than Murray ever was. Murray also puts in a lot more time in the gym IMO than Nadal, he had to build his fitness step by step whereas for Nadal it came naturally. Silly to say that Murray works less hard than Nadal IMO. If Murray is so talented, why can't he consistently hit a good forehand (which is basically true, sad as it seems. He either has to push or ball bash with that stroke unless he is playing REALLY well) or a good second serve?

On the subject of equipment, an important thing to remember is that poly strings helped Federer a LOT. When Federer used to play with a full head of gut he made an INCREDIBLE number of unforced errors. Federer is naturally a very loose playing player, without poly strings its very possible that he would have just been totally unable to string points together off the ground on a consistent basis at the top level. When Federer switched to his current hybrid string bed his baseline game immediately improved. Same thing happened with Serena in 2012.

Murray is more naturally talented. Just look at his touch. So are Gasquet and Nalbandian but talent does not equal success. Just go see the difference between a Federer practice session and a Nadal/Djokovic practice session. Thats the difference between talent and hard work. Nadal is physically talented. He would have been great at a lot of sports while Federer had a natural inclination for racket sports.
 
What does "hard working" mean in your context? If you mean it is the ability to grind your opponents down to win points and win matches, than it is part of their "talent". Like I said in my prevous post, "talent" is not all about flashy shots or beautiful style.

I mean intensity in which they work off court and off season. Just compare a practice session of Federer where he just carves ball back and just plays around with the ball for couple hours while Nadal is blasting the ball EVERY TIME running up and down and just the overall intensity is a lot higher.
 
I mean intensity in which they work off court and off season. Just compare a practice session of Federer where he just carves ball back and just plays around with the ball for couple hours while Nadal is blasting the ball EVERY TIME running up and down and just the overall intensity is a lot higher.

But Nadal has superior genetics, he can push his body more. And those practices are public, Fed never tries for those. He trains way harder when not watched.

Maybe Fed puts as much as relative effort as Rafa. Who puts more effort? A skinny guy lifting 200 pounds or body builder lifting 400 pounds?

I think Fed is doing what his body is allowing him to. Rafa trains more, but not in relative terms. if we consider his genetics.

And Fed is playing way more matches than Rafa. Even if Rafa trains more, he then gets injured, so he has to rest for a month, while Fed is busy training and playing matches.

All I'm saying is that we can't be sure, that Rafa trains more in relative terms.
 
"hmmm...the H-2-H ain't looking good...new tact: "TALENT"...yeah, that's the ticket!"

Federer is the greater player out of the two and Nadal will not accomplish more.
Another great post from Chico! Such uncommon insight!


a very nice post, and i think you make many good valid points.

let me share why Nadal is the "greater" player to me. these are just my personal feelings. i use quotation marks for the "greater", because in terms of statistics, there is almost no doubt that Federer is the greatest player ever. hence what i meant by "greater" is just this notion, that Nadal has achieved so much despite being handed an inferior draw in terms of talent.


i have no doubt that Federer is way more talented than Nadal,

and probably the most talented tennis player ever.


but that is why Nadal endears himself so much to me. despite being clearly outclassed in terms of natural talent, with great humility and incredible determination, he still fashioned a career that is almost on par with Federer. he gives us mortals hope, that hardwork and determination can overcome fate's cruel hands, and that even a god can bleed.

that's why Rafa to me is the "greater" player.
Waaay more talented? More on that later vvvv ....



Great text. I agree with you. Nadal doesn't only have to beat Federer to be considered really better.

Some more things should be done.
Ok, so fighter 'A' beats fighter 'B' like a drum - that doesn't make fighter 'A' better than fighter 'B'?? ..... er, got it ;-)

"Some more things should be done??" - What would you suggest Nadal do: start LOSING to him? :-)


one of the easiest ways to see how much more talented Federer is over Nadal,

is to see how early he takes the ball. that

takes incredible hand-eye coordination. Nadal simply does not have that.

He takes the ball relatively late, and has to compensate using grit.BY USING A REVERSE-FOREHAND FINISH]
Re-read what you just wrote and explain why anyone should take anything---ANYTHING--you say seriously. This isn't about Fed vs Nadal....this is fanboy insanity:

Nadal "simply doesn't have incredible eye-hand coordination?!!" <--(your words)

^^^
Wow.
Just.
Wow.




i did not say he isn't talented. i said he is less talented than federer.
Actually you went waaay beyond just that: you said you had NO DOUBT that Fed was WAY MORE TALENTED that Nadal.




Actually i think federer is able to take the ball early not because of his superior hand-eye but more his stroke style and grip.

Try taking the ball early with an extreme western versus an eastern grip.

you will see the difference.

In any case i have seen nadal take the ball early when he feels confident and blast winners off half-volleys.

They both have different talents. Game-wise i just relate more to federer...Whereas nadal's stretch backhand passing shots and forehand crazies from 15 feet behind the baseline are tough to fathom.
Just the opposite: generally-speaking, the more 'western' the grip the further in front you have to take the ball. Conversely, moving towards Eastern and Continental grips allow for a later contact point. In the case of Fed, it's a combination of his laid back wrist plus his straight-arm-at-contact (which does take super human timing!) puts a premium on taking the ball "out in front."

What allows Nadal to sometimes take the ball 'later' (on his forehand) considering his more western-ish grip than Fed is when Nadal uses his "reverse forehand" finish (over his hitting arm shoulder), a technique that others such as Sampras & Davenport even used on occassion.

Great posts from both TheFithSet and objectivity. It was great to see both perspectives.
Respectfully, I thought they were two similar (Fed fav) perspectives only in different words. No big deal though..

RF20 said:
I also would like to add something. A few months ago I remember scrolling through some interview and Rob Koenig made an interesting statement. He said Federer was like the cricket player Sachin Tendulkar. In that he had the stats, records, trophies and the resume and he was the best in the business. Nadal on the other hand was like Shoaib Akthar (I hope I spelled that right I'm not a cricket buff), in that he was a match winner! If everything was on stake you would bet on him. When the going got tough Nadal would find a way to pull through and win the big matches while Federer like Tendulkar pleased the crowd with pure shot making magic and just dominated the sport like no other.

Also objectivity you are right in that Nadal is not as naturally talented as Federer but in no way does that mean he gives is hope. There is no way any of us could pull off 1/4th of what Nadal does on our best day.


I think Nadal's talent is criminally underrated around here.
^^^
This +1.



Don't care how many trophies Nadal takes home(especially in THIS era), I can't consider him greater than Federer, sorry.
If some section of tennis fans don't wanna call Fed as the GOAT,Fine that's their lookout.
Fed is and always will be the GOAT imo until a player comes along and takes tennis to a new level (much like Roger did when he burst on the scene ) but I can't see how that can happen because Fed brought a multitude of attributes that when combined make him the GOAT in most tennis fans's mind.

Nadal's game has little to no variety,plays the same style on every surface and profits because they favour his ugly playing style,


monfed said:
he would've got slaughtered without his Babolauncher in the 90s, would've lost on clay too.
Slaughtered....lost on clay.

That's good monfed.......that's really good...... lol :rolleyes:



I am with you. I don't understand the "talent" thing. I guess because I wasn't vested in anybody before Nadal came to prominence, so I wasn't paying attention to any particular person on tour.

The first time I saw Nadal play I was astounded. Nobody had ever literally knocked my socks off like that.

And nothing about that has changed. I think he has all of the elements that you named and I totally concur.
As one who didn't have a "fanboy" interest in the Fed-Rafa wars but who also thought Fed was GOAT, I have to admit, I'm starting to look at Rafa differently. Not the GOAT (certainly not yet), but differently. ^^ Good post.


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Talent is where you get better results with the same effort you put in. Your natural given abilities.
And Nadal seems to put a lot more effort and mental effort compared to Fed. But we can't prove that. Maybe Fed trains more than Rafa. Who knows. But if Rafa said in his book, he thinks Fed was born to play tennis, I guess it has to be true.

But, so what. That doesn't matter. It evens out in the end. Talented people are usually not mentally as strong, cuz they get results easier. And also they are more lazy, since they feel they don't need to work as hard.

Talent has positive and negative effects. The most successful people in the world aren't the most talented. I think, this is a fact.

But you are right. This talent thing is exaggerated. Why do we praise people for talent? They didn't do anything to get it. It's just pure luck, they were born with it. Why should some people be entitled to results, just because of talent?

As much as I love Fed, I'm happy that Rafa has proven that the world makes sense. I don't want to live in a world where talent owns hard work. Because this would be discriminating and admitting some people have "noble" blood and are better.

I think it's fair that hard work owns talent. If I had to chose between Feds talent and Rafas hard work, I would chose Rafa. Talent can't make you good it's not a guarantee. It's just potential. But hard work can guarantee you great results.

i don't always agree with you, but my god, this is the post of the year for me. fantastic.
 
You know ı am not going to lie ı find Djokovic and Nadal 2012 AO final very boring. It wasnt as epic as people made out to be in my book but altough ı used to be huge Sampras fan in 90s. Some of matches he played with İvanisevic it was so boring as well. So to find the right balance is very difficult ı guess.

Until finding the balance brings in the $/£, then it isn't going to happen, but I agree with you.

But is it even true in any case? Let us compare Fed in 2006 and Rafa in 2010 if Fed is really making more errors.

I would like to see some stats.

You've lost me, can you explain what you mean by this?
 
There are no single-surface specialists, because the adjustments you would have to make from one surface to another have been rendered all but obsolete. That's why todays "all-surface" players are anything but.

That doesn't diminish Nadals accomplishments for me, but it does add some clarity as to how he was able to be so successful despite playing the same type of game on every surface, employing the same rudimentary game plan for years without any seismic adjustments. I hope people reading this thread can see the difference between me hating on Nadal and me attempting to explain why he hit the jackpot playing in todays game.

Sure, Nadal to date has conquered his rivals. That script might be re-written at some point. After all, it wasn't until age 29-30 that the narrative of Federer only losing to Nadal consistently was changed. But it probably won't be. Nadal has a stranglehold on nearly all of his significant rivals. Colour me extremely impressed, but not shocked; after all, in this era once you learn how to play on one surface you learn how to play on them all. In that same vain, once you learn how to master one style of play (a margin-based counter-punching game with occasional offense), you master them all. That's the main reason I can't buy into the notion that the competition tennis has gotten much much stronger in the past 5 years, approaching a level we have never seen before. The level of baseline play is indeed unprecedented, but the all-court component is gone, due in large part to the technology and gradual death of fast surfaces. What's so gaudy about that? That's like if the NBA abolished the 3 point line. It'd go from a league with a good balance between rim-attackers and shooters to a league dominated by guys driving to the hole all game long. In that league, players like Bird, Petrovic and Reggie Miller wouldn't look so hot anymore. After all, why work on a skill that simply isn't relevant anymore? Volleys, chip and charges, stealthy approaches, and to an extent slice backhands, they are all merely complementary skills to have. Nothing more, nothing less. That is just absurd to me. Right now, if you are the best baseliner in tennis, you are the best PLAYER in tennis. It's a startlingly tight correlation. In the 90s, that didn't guarantee you were the best. Oh sure, Agassi and Chang were plenty successful.

Your point is valid, but you are overstating it and making it appear like that is something that happened recently during Nadal's and Djok's era. This was the same scenario even in 2004. Can you name the "surface specialists" from Fed's generation ? Barring Tim Henman, there were no S/V'ers in the top strata. Fed's compatriots like Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Roddick, Blake, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Coria, Ferrero etc. all played the same irrespective of the surface. You are saying as if when Fed was in his prime, the surfaces and players played like in the 90's - which was when true adjustments were required.

No, Fed got the same advantage that Nadal did as far as adjustments across surfaces were concerned.

How does this tie in with Federer? Simply put, I am of the belief that if you put him in any era, he would be immensely successful. He is a jack of all trades in the same way Laver was. He beat Sampras serving and volleying. He beat Djokovic, Agassi, Murray and to a lesser extent Nadal from the back of the court in the biggest stages of the game. His variety ensured that he would be utterly dominant on fast and medium speed courts, and tremendously successful on slow ones (and don't tell me there are still lightning fast courts in todays game). At his peak you simply could not serve the man off the court. His defensive return was almost as good as Agassi's offensive return. His passing shots were elite on all surfaces. He took your time away on fast surfaces. On slow ones, you were guaranteed a war of attrition if intended to rally with him.

No, I disagree that Fed would have the same success in the 90's. Your own point about him being a jack-of-all-trades is the root cause of that. To be IMMENSELY successful in the 90's (like Sampras or Fed/Nadal in the 2000's), you HAD to be a master of ONE trade - either attacking/S/V tennis or baseline tennis. You had to choose between a Sampras/Rafter/Becker style or a Courier/Agassi/Chang style. You cannot expect HUGE success by being a jack-of-both styles, like Fed was. He is essentially a baseliner who could play S/V very well on the RIGHT surface - grass. Very similar to Borg, Lendl. There is a reason he didn't play S/V outside of Wim even during the 2001-2003 timeframe. Because he knew it wouldn't cut it against guys like Agassi. If you see his 2001 USO match against Agassi, he hardly played S/V. For someone who can supposedly play excellent S/V tennis, you should figure he would've done that quite a bit against even Agassi. He did approach the net more than he does today, but that doesn't make him a "would've-been-a-great-S/V'er-in-the-90's" player.

His return is very good, but I would not put it on par with Agassi's or Hewitt's. A lot of it has to do with the fact that he has a 1HBH, an inherent weakness for returning kick serves to the BH (Sampras struggled for a similar reasons against Edberg). I think people make too much of that 2001 match. How come nobody talks about Berdych's victory over Fed in the 2010 Wim match ? Fed was younger than Sampras was in 2001.

I believe his net game was underrated. It wasn't as great as Pete's or Rafters or Edbergs, but (of course) in this era it didn't need to be. That's why his net game during Wimby 2001 was better than it was when he was in his prime. Why hone a skill that wasn't all that necessary anymore? All I know is, many tried defeating Sampras using his own his own game during his reign at Wimbledon. Only two succeeded. And the other one might've had the best or second best first serve of his era, and possibly one of the 10 best overall serves of all time (Krajicek). Federer didn't have that luxury, especially at 19 when his serve was still developing. That counts for something.

I believe his net game is overrated, much more overrated than Sampras' baseline game was. That match against Sampras used as a barometer for Fed's net skills is as useful as someone using Lendl's or Borg's S/V game at Wim to show that they "could've" been great S/Vers too. No, it doesn't prove that all. I wonder why nobody says any such thing about Borg ? The fact that Fed never played that way outside of Wim suggests, to me, that he was a baseliner who S/V'ed on grass.
 
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TheFifthSet, aside from Wimbledon, I don't think it is inconceivable for a player like Nadal to win AO and US Open in 90s conditions. You have to give Nadal credit for working on his HC game. They didn't roll out the red carpet for him. Nadal worked tremendously hard for that US and AO title. It took him like 6 years of beatings before he finally won a title. If guys like Michael Chang, Cedric Pioline, and Alex Corretja were able to get to QF/SF/Final at the USO in the 90s, I don't see any reason to doubt that the great Rafael Nadal would not be able to succeed. Nadal serves better than these guys, is a better athlete, has a much bigger forehand, and defends better.

Hey fellas, sorry for the untimely bump, haven't had internet in a while so I always meant to respond to this thread but couldn't.

Anyways Sid, I totally agree, and I gave Nadal his due in my OP. He'd be a force in any era. All I was saying that if you gave him the choice to play in whichever era he wanted, he wouldn't change a darn thing. This era is as tailor-made to his game as the 60's were to Wilt Chamberlain. Would he win slams on HC in the 90's? Conceivable. Likely, even. Wimbledon? Probably not, but I wouldn't put it entirely past him. But 5 non-clay slams? That could only happen in the 2000's, IMO.
 
Your point is valid, but you are overstating it and making it appear like that is something that happened recently during Nadal's and Djok's era. This was the same scenario even in 2004. Can you name the "surface specialists" from Fed's generation ? Barring Tim Henman, there were no S/V'ers in the top strata. Fed's compatriots like Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Roddick, Blake, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Coria, Ferrero etc. all played the same irrespective of the surface. You are saying as if when Fed was in his prime, the surfaces and players played like in the 90's - which was when true adjustments were required.

No, Fed got the same advantage that Nadal did as far as adjustments across surfaces were concerned.

Agree. Didn't say otherwise. It's just that those circumstances benefitted Nadal vastly more than Fed. It wasn't unfair by any means. It is what it is. But, what you said doesn't in any way contradict my original point that Federer would probably adapt better to any other generation than Nadal.



No, I disagree that Fed would have the same success in the 90's. Your own point about him being a jack-of-all-trades is the root cause of that. To be IMMENSELY successful in the 90's (like Sampras or Fed/Nadal in the 2000's), you HAD to be a master of ONE trade - either attacking/S/V tennis or baseline tennis. You had to choose between a Sampras/Rafter/Becker style or a Courier/Agassi/Chang style. You cannot expect HUGE success by being a jack-of-both styles, like Fed was. He is essentially a baseliner who could play S/V very well on the RIGHT surface - grass. Very similar to Borg, Lendl. There is a reason he didn't play S/V outside of Wim even during the 2001-2003 timeframe. Because he knew it wouldn't cut it against guys like Agassi. If you see his 2001 USO match against Agassi, he hardly played S/V. For someone who can supposedly play excellent S/V tennis, you should figure he would've done that quite a bit against even Agassi. He did approach the net more than he does today, but that doesn't make him a "would've-been-a-great-S/V'er-in-the-90's" player.

You make a salient case, but it's one I totally disagree with. Why are there so few examples of guys who can do everything well, dominating? Why are there so few jacks-of-all-trades to be found racking up slams in the 90's? Well, simply put: there aren't very many guys of that mould AROUND AT ALL, lol. How many players are there in history that have a more complete game than Federers? I could name them on one hand. But that's not to say there weren't ANY all-courters doing well in the 90's. Sampras was an all-courter until the late 90's. Stich was pretty much a poor mans Fed -- and he won slams on clay and grass, and the only reason he didn't win more is because he was a severe headcase. Federer's versatility would help, not hinder him. The reason you can't name so many of those types of players is because they weren't around in that timespan, not because they couldn't hack it. Nobody from the 90's had a game as complete as Fed's.

Also, you make it seem as if it was a CHOICE for the players you listed to play that way. The truth is, bar Sampras, all of those guys HAD to have the style that they had to succeed as immensely as they did. Courier, Agassi and Chang were NEVER going to be fantastic net-rushers or big servers (well, Courier's serve was pretty good). Agassi was merely adequate at the net, and had a steady but unspectacular serve. Chang wasn't great at the net, was too short to have a big serve, and Courier had brick hands. Rafter didn't have a very good return, and with his ground game was never going to be a great baseliner. Becker had an erratic BH (yup, this does sound familiar ;) ), and Edberg couldn't dominate with his forehand. All of these guys adopted the style of play that they did because they all had deficiencies that prevented them from having an all-encompassing game. Doesn't really apply to Fed that much.
 
His return is very good, but I would not put it on par with Agassi's or Hewitt's. A lot of it has to do with the fact that he has a 1HBH, an inherent weakness for returning kick serves to the BH (Sampras struggled for a similar reasons against Edberg). I think people make too much of that 2001 match. How come nobody talks about Berdych's victory over Fed in the 2010 Wim match ? Fed was younger than Sampras was in 2001.

His overall return isn't Agassi's caliber, I would never say it was. However, his defensive return was as good or better. Very rarely was he out-aced, and I believe he won a higher percentage of first serve return points won. Agassi had only one glaring weakness on the return, it was that he could be vulnerable against big servers (I know I know, who couldn't :D ). He didn't have great reach or a great defensive return and often cheated towards one side and left him susceptible to getting aced. Clearly his offensive return blows Fed's and just about everybody's out of the water -- nobody attacked second serves like him.

I think the 2001 match is indeed a little overanalyzed, but it's can't be ignored as a model for how Fed-Sampras matches would play out. If Sampras was playing like a bum, I would make little to nothing out of it. But the fact is, Federer beat Sampras playing his own game, and Sampras didn't play poorly at all. He served at an extremely high percentage and played one of his best matches that year.

The Federer match versus Berdych doesn't really have the same gravitas -- it isn't as historically significant and it was essentially a baseline tug-of-war. And to boot, Federer didn't play very well at all.
I believe his net game is overrated, much more overrated than Sampras' baseline game was. That match against Sampras used as a barometer for Fed's net skills is as useful as someone using Lendl's or Borg's S/V game at Wim to show that they "could've" been great S/Vers too. No, it doesn't prove that all. I wonder why nobody says any such thing about Borg ? The fact that Fed never played that way outside of Wim suggests, to me, that he was a baseliner who S/V'ed on grass.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Borg had a very workmanlike net game. To me Fed's was so much more natural and just BETTER. Borg had fantastic approaches, though, and they compensated for his lack of natural volleying talent. That is, he still had natural volleying skills in spades...but IMO not as much as Fed did. Even a post-prime Fed gave Murray fits approaching the net in their final at Wimby. And Murray has some of the best passes ever. Absolute clinic. Given the time and resources, Federer would have excelled using any style of play.

Also, I don't see how Fed's net game is more overrated than Sampras' baseline game. Fed won a slam predominantly serving and volleying (2003 Wimby), in convincing fashion, only losing one set. Whereas Sampras never even sniffed a French Open final and won only 3 titles on clay.

Granted, Sampras had trouble moving on clay...but still lol.
 
I don't understand why people act like this era was tailor made for Nadal with the implication that it didn't suit Federer's game. The fact is, the modern conditions suit Federer very much, IMO. He hits with heavy topspin himself. Nadal is a different animal, but after him, is there another player that hits with significantly more topspin than Federer?

To be clear, my argument is not that the conditions today do not suit Nadal, but rather that they suit Federer as well.

I think the issue with Federer v Nadal has far more to do with the specifics of the matchup than any court conditions.
 
let me share why Nadal is the "greater" player to me. these are just my personal feelings. i use quotation marks for the "greater", because in terms of statistics, there is almost no doubt that Federer is the greatest player ever. hence what i meant by "greater" is just this notion, that Nadal has achieved so much despite being handed an inferior draw in terms of talent. i have no doubt that Federer is way more talented than Nadal, and probably the most talented tennis player ever. but that is why Nadal endears himself so much to me. despite being clearly outclassed in terms of natural talent, with great humility and incredible determination, he still fashioned a career that is almost on par with Federer. he gives us mortals hope, that hardwork and determination can overcome fate's cruel hands, and that even a god can bleed.

that's why Rafa to me is the "greater" player.
 
I don't understand why people act like this era was tailor made for Nadal with the implication that it didn't suit Federer's game. The fact is, the modern conditions suit Federer very much, IMO. He hits with heavy topspin himself. Nadal is a different animal, but after him, is there another player that hits with significantly more topspin than Federer?

To be clear, my argument is not that the conditions today do not suit Nadal, but rather that they suit Federer as well.

I think the issue with Federer v Nadal has far more to do with the specifics of the matchup than any court conditions.

Definitely agree that this era, if not for the existence of Nadal (or even with his existence) greatly benefits Fed, too (not nearly as much as it benefits Nadal IMO but it definitely does) as I've said on a few occasions. No argument there. None at all :) -- and its not why I made the thread, to argue that Federer got swindled.
 
let me share why Nadal is the "greater" player to me. these are just my personal feelings. i use quotation marks for the "greater", because in terms of statistics, there is almost no doubt that Federer is the greatest player ever. hence what i meant by "greater" is just this notion, that Nadal has achieved so much despite being handed an inferior draw in terms of talent. i have no doubt that Federer is way more talented than Nadal, and probably the most talented tennis player ever. but that is why Nadal endears himself so much to me. despite being clearly outclassed in terms of natural talent, with great humility and incredible determination, he still fashioned a career that is almost on par with Federer. he gives us mortals hope, that hardwork and determination can overcome fate's cruel hands, and that even a god can bleed.

that's why Rafa to me is the "greater" player.

Nothing wrong with this perspective either. It is a fairly subjective thread I would say, so to each their own. I find Federer to be greater not just because of his superior talent but also because of how he was able to tame his inherently mercurial nature. He was one of the most notorious hotheads in tennis, and it was that aspect of his personality that limited his success. That, to me, was as great an obstacle as any Nadal had to overcome. It made the difference between a Mount Rushmore career and a Safin career (which would still be great). While his veins aren't as icy and Nadals and he isn't as strong mentally, that to me showed great character. Upon the death of his former coach, he finally had that moment of clarity, that introspective glance into himself, and realized that he needed to make sure that all of the people who invested their time in making him a better player didn't waste their time. He put it all together just in the nick of time, when most-all had written him off. Thats a great narrative in and of itself. While Nadal is constantly labelled as an underdog, a guy who had to scratch and claw to earn everything he had in life, he was every bit the child prodigy Fed was, more so actually. Hes not as talented but hes not exactly an unsung hero.

Another thing that makes Fed a lot more endearing and "mortal" to me: his doubt. Early in his career he had very little belief in himself. Nadal, conversely, ALWAYS had an uncanny belief in himself. Even as a young kid, he never shied from the big moment. To watch Fed transform from fragile headcase to champion was, as a fan, as rewarding an experience as any. What good is talent if you can't tap into it when you need it the most? For all of Federers triumphs, his losses have endeared me to him the most; his anguish after a tough loss is clear as day. Despite his generally classy handshakes, hes never been able to hide the despair on his face after an L. In fact I dont know if I've ever seen an athlete who bottles up his post-loss emotions that much. And yet.....nobody recovers from tough losses better than he does. In the end, losses that break most players don't put a dent in Federers psyche anymore, because at the end of the day he loves tennis too much to quit or to rest on his laurels. Federer is a tennis players tennis player. He loves tennis whereas Nadal has stated before that he loves the competition as much or more than the tennis itself. All about preference. I think Federer will be remembered as a greater player -- and if not, that doesn't matter too much to be, because I'LL remember him as the greater player.
 
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yeah I think surface homogenization has favored Nadal although I wouldn't overstate it that much. It probably helped him in 08 Wimb and 09 Oz both against Fed in the final. These 2 games turned the h2h big time against Fed and could have gone either way. But Nadal has since won plenty against Fed and surface bias or homogenization would be an unfair excuse. Since then. Nadal is a co-goat Fed fans. Accept it.
 
yeah I think surface homogenization has favored Nadal although I wouldn't overstate it that much. It probably helped him in 08 Wimb and 09 Oz both against Fed in the final. These 2 games turned the h2h big time against Fed and could have gone either way. But Nadal has since won plenty against Fed and surface bias or homogenization would be an unfair excuse. Since then. Nadal is a co-goat Fed fans. Accept it.

Wasn't really making excuses. This thread is mainly my personal opinion. i DO think Nadal was luckier than Federer to play in this era but its not like I'm not giving him his due.
 
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I didn't say it was unfair.

sorry I never said you did. Sorry if I implied it. Just trying to encourage impartial debate which you are good at. My post was directly after yours so sorry I accept that you thought it was aimed at you but it wasn't more a general observation with the "accept it" comment I made. the surface homogenization was prompted by you and I agreed with it in terms of slightly favoring Nadal. The unfair thing wasn't about you but more talk tennis in general.
 
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sorry I never said you did. Sorry if I implied it. Just trying to encourage impartial debate which you are good at. My post was directly after yours so sorry I accept that you thought it was aimed at you but it wasn't more a general observation with the "accept it" comment I made.

Yeah no worries man, I misread your post anyway haha, hence the edit, so my bad. It's just that a couple people didn't totally get the objective of my original post so I kinda skimmed the end of your post without reading it. Knee jerk reaction on my part :p
 
let me share why Nadal is the "greater" player to me. these are just my personal feelings. i use quotation marks for the "greater", because in terms of statistics, there is almost no doubt that Federer is the greatest player ever. hence what i meant by "greater" is just this notion, that Nadal has achieved so much despite being handed an inferior draw in terms of talent. i have no doubt that Federer is way more talented than Nadal, and probably the most talented tennis player ever. but that is why Nadal endears himself so much to me. despite being clearly outclassed in terms of natural talent, with great humility and incredible determination, he still fashioned a career that is almost on par with Federer. he gives us mortals hope, that hardwork and determination can overcome fate's cruel hands, and that even a god can bleed.

that's why Rafa to me is the "greater" player.

yep...I think in terms of "talent" and this word is extremely subjective that Fed has more of it. He's a more skillful player with all the range of skills. Nadal has fought to get past him. Credit of course to Fed though to be the man that set the bar. If it was vice versa in terms of who was first and who set the bar then Fed may have done it. But Nadal challenged and eventually surpassed or at least equalled him and he didn't.
 
Nadal has no chance whatsoever to accomplish more than Federer so the whole thread is moot and pointless.

Sorry, just telling it the way it is.
 
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