Nadal needs either 2 more slams or the Aus Open to surpass Federer

#51
If he wins 2 more slams then he is tied at 20 with Fed and his superior H2H will act as the tiebreaker. If he wins one more Aus Open, the DCGS will be enough to break the deadlock as well. This is of course assuming Federer doesn't add to his major tally.
Can’t agree - WTFs will be in the discussion. H2H is a minor criteria
 
#52
Federer will have more titles and weeks at no.1, carelessly(or carefully) omitted from your post.
In that scenario Rafa wouldn't be outright GOAT - but if Djoker has the weeks at # 1 and YE # 1 records, both he and Rafa have a 10+ title lead in M1000 and Rafa equals or passes the slam record Fed couldn't claim it either which is what we've been told ad-nauseum for 10 years.
 

Zoid

Professional
#53
You can adjust the H2H to match surface prevalence on the tour, and I think it's been done quite a bit. Nadal -due to the massive clay advantage- retains the H2H lead even after this adjustment. Though H2H is not much of substance in this debate.

I agree that conditions play a substantial role in who would be GOAT, but I would hope we are in agreement that we should use the existent conditions of the tour in the analysis of who is goat.
Sure, but is not helpful if trying to gauge a fair h2h in terms of players rather than conditions, imagine if Fed had only played rafa on clay 3 times, and instead had 16 indoor matches - obviously the h2h would be far kinder to him.

I think h2h is a minor factor and place more weight on beating the field
 
#54
In that scenario Rafa wouldn't be outright GOAT - but if Djoker has the weeks at # 1 and YE # 1 records, both he and Rafa have a 10+ title lead in M1000 and Rafa equals or passes the slam record Fed couldn't claim it either which is what we've been told ad-nauseum for 10 years.
So, is it Federer vs Djokodal? We are comparing Fedal’s accomplishments against each other otherwise YE 1 would be a moot point since Sampras holds the record.
 
#55
So, is it Federer vs Djokodal? We are comparing Fedal’s accomplishments against each other otherwise YE 1 would be a moot point since Sampras holds the record.
What I'm saying is that in a future scenario where:

  • Djoker holds the weeks at # 1 record
  • Djoker holds the YE # 1 record
  • Rafa equals or beats the slam record
None of the three individually have a clear claim to GOAThood unless Djoker is also has equaled or passed the slam record - this flies in the face of the premature GOAT narrative of the last decade.
 
#56
Nadal at 20 slams vs Federer at 20 slams would cause some interesting debates. Nadal fans would say he is now ahead due to the head to head. Federer fans would say he is ahead due to a more balanced record at the slams, and more time at #1.

Djokovic at 20 slams is clearly ahead of Federer at 20 slams and Nadal at 20 slams though. By that point he would have the most time at #1, definitely more years at #1, probably atleast equal WTF titles to Federer, the Masters record (most likely), there would be nothing to argue against him other than irrelevant things like lack of style of mechanical, blah blah.
 
#57
What I'm saying is that in a future scenario where:

  • Djoker holds the weeks at # 1 record
  • Djoker holds the YE # 1 record
  • Rafa equals or beats the slam record
None of the three individually have a clear claim to GOAThood unless Djoker is also has equaled or passed the slam record - this flies in the face of the premature GOAT narrative of the last decade.
What was premature about it? By the end of 2009 there were few tennis fans saying Petros is still greater and Laver, contrary to the opinion now wasn’t even considered the best player of his own time. Jack Kramer mention Lew(lol) Hoad and Pancho Gonzales as being greater, so did a few others from the time. He was elevated to GOAT status much later.

Regarding the big 3 GOAT synopsis: Federer is still numero uno, followed by Nadal and then Djokovic. If all three are tied at the slams, Djoker will definitely be the best, followed by Fed and Rafa will be last. ‘Course I am not taking into account Nadal winning slams other than FO and also getting another YE 1.
 
#59
I don’t see how. In both cases, Nadal has either LESS of everything or, at best, is equal. Let’s compare:
-less slams (or equal)
-worse record at 3 of the 4 top tournaments
-less total titles and wins
-less tier 2 titles (0:6), more tier 3 titles, less tier 4&5 titles
-less years and weeks at no. 1
-less slam finals, SFs, QFs
-ridiculously worse consistency records
-less Top 10 wins

The only thing he has more is time at no. 2 and consecutive weeks at no. 2. You could add the Olympics as well, and the famous H2H, but that won’t go far. What good is a 3:1 positive H2H at Melbourne, when you are 6:1 behind in titles?

In fact, right now everything about Rafa screams no. 2, which is perfectly fine and an amazing achievement, but some Rafa fans aren’t happy with that. I just wanted to make sure it stays that way for you - no offense to the good Rafa fans which are really good people. :)
You forgot masters, career winning % and dominance at one slam.
 
#61
If Nadal wins one more AO and two more RGs then that pretty much seals the deal for GOAT. Most slams at 21 and DCGS tops Fed. It doesn't matter if Fed has more titles, WTFs or weeks at #1. Plus Nadal has a trump card of Olympic gold.
I wonder why WTF doesn't count for rafe fans . Let me guess. Rafa has got 0 Novak 5 and Fed 6.:):)

The problem with Nadal fans they apply double standards to other's achievements. So biased.


:):)
 
#62
What was premature about it? By the end of 2009 there were few tennis fans saying Petros is still greater and Laver, contrary to the opinion now wasn’t even considered the best player of his own time. Jack Kramer mention Lew(lol) Hoad and Pancho Gonzales as being greater, so did a few others from the time. He was elevated to GOAT status much later.

Regarding the big 3 GOAT synopsis: Federer is still numero uno, followed by Nadal and then Djokovic. If all three are tied at the slams, Djoker will definitely be the best, followed by Fed and Rafa will be last. ‘Course I am not taking into account Nadal winning slams other than FO and also getting another YE 1.
Premature considering that he took the ''GOAThood'' after being owned in slams by a guy coming through that was younger than him (2 - 6) - maybe he should have been proclaimed the interim GOAT.

Agree that Fed is # 1 at the moment.
 
#64
If Nadal wins one more AO and two more RGs then that pretty much seals the deal for GOAT. Most slams at 21 and DCGS tops Fed. It doesn't matter if Fed has more titles, WTFs or weeks at #1. Plus Nadal has a trump card of Olympic gold.
Nope.

He’d still be behind fed and Novak at Wimbledon, AO and USO. How can a GOAT be behind others at 3 out of the 4 slams?

Murray has more Olympic gold than Nadal, which nullifies your argument. Nadal fans don’t care about the WTF because Nadal hasn’t won it (and probably never will - beating the top 8 in one tournament is obviously too hard for him)

Then apply more titles and weeks at number 1, Nadal is clearly behind even though he’s ahead in the slam count. He’d have 14/21 slams at the one slam on the same surface lol. That’s nearly 70% of victories at RG.

Not GOAT material.
 
#66
Nope. This comment is hilarious
Rafa has a 6 title deficit at one tournament, the WTF which is a big liability on his resume, no doubt. Sorry to tell you but as Fed's records start to fall over the next couple of years his comparitive lack of M1000 titles compared to Djokovic and Nadal will be a big liability for him.
 
#67
Plus Rafa may end with 10+ lead in M1000 titles which would offset the WTF deficit.
GREAT!! Since Djokovic will end with likely more masters than rafa or at worst the same number, and also that he has 5,6,7 or 8 more WTF more than Rafa that means a few slams short for DJokovic vs nadal is fine and Djokovic is way better than Nadal! Plus add the H2H!! Yayy

Also since Federer will end with titles** than Nadal that will mean he will remain GOAT if he is a slam or two short. YAY!!!


(** as well as likely more Slams, WTF, ATP 500, ATP 200, YE no 1, weeks at no)!!
 
#68
Rafa has a 6 title deficit at one tournament, the WTF which is a big liability on his resume, no doubt. Sorry to tell you but as Fed's records start to fall over the next couple of years his comparitive lack of M1000 titles compared to Djokovic and Nadal will be a big liability for him.
If you agree with that than how do you feel about the likely scenario when all is said and done where Nadal ends his career without the record for:

Slams (Fed probably maybe Djok)
WTF (Fed/Djok)
Masters 1000 (Djokovic will probably take this plus he has all 9 masters and Nadal wont)
ATP 500
Heck he wont event have the most mug ATP 250s
YE 1 (Sampras/Djok/Fed??)
Weeks No 1 (Fed/Djok)
Best H2H (Djok)

Is this a big liablity for nadal as you say? Are Nadal's records falling apart?
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
#69
If he wins 2 more slams then he is tied at 20 with Fed and his superior H2H will act as the tiebreaker. If he wins one more Aus Open, the DCGS will be enough to break the deadlock as well. This is of course assuming Federer doesn't add to his major tally.
Correct.
 
#71
If he wins 2 more slams then he is tied at 20 with Fed and his superior H2H will act as the tiebreaker. If he wins one more Aus Open, the DCGS will be enough to break the deadlock as well. This is of course assuming Federer doesn't add to his major tally.
Djokovic needs 3 more slams to tie Nadal. A DCGS will do the job too. Tsitispas needs 18
 
#72
If you agree with that than how do you feel about the likely scenario when all is said and done where Nadal ends his career without the record for:

Slams (Fed probably maybe Djok)
WTF (Fed/Djok)
Masters 1000 (Djokovic will probably take this plus he has all 9 masters and Nadal wont)
ATP 500
Heck he wont event have the most mug ATP 250s
YE 1 (Sampras/Djok/Fed??)
Weeks No 1 (Fed/Djok)
Best H2H (Djok)

Is this a big liablity for nadal as you say? Are Nadal's records falling apart?
My posts are not intended to paint Rafa as the GOAT. They are to point out that if those records fall, Fed definately isn't which is what we've been told non-stop for years despite great evidence that Rafa and DJoker could well take some of his major records. I have repeatedly said that it is quite likely that there will be no clear case for any of the three current ATG's to be GOAT in a couple of years time as they share different important records.
 
#73
GREAT!! Since Djokovic will end with likely more masters than rafa or at worst the same number, and also that he has 5,6,7 or 8 more WTF more than Rafa that means a few slams short for DJokovic vs nadal is fine and Djokovic is way better than Nadal!

Also since Federer will end with titles** than Nadal that will mean he will remain GOAT if he is a slam or two short. YAY!!!
It's ok to discuss hypothetical situations and their ramifications, but to assert things that haven't happed as truth like you have above is rediculous.

If the following scenario plays out, there is no clear claim to GOAThood for Fed:

  • Slam record: Rafa
  • YE # 1 record Djoker
  • Weeks at # 1 record Djoker
  • WTF titles: Djoker
  • M1000 record Nadal / Djoker
I've admitted multiple times in many posts that this would leave no clear path for all three of them with Djoker having the slightly strongest case of all of them.
 
#75
It's ok to discuss hypothetical situations and their ramifications, but to assert things that haven't happed as truth like you have above is rediculous.

If the following scenario plays out, there is no clear claim to GOAThood for Fed:

  • Slam record: Rafa
  • YE # 1 record Djoker
  • Weeks at # 1 record Djoker
  • WTF titles: Djoker
  • M1000 record Nadal / Djoker
I've admitted multiple times in many posts that this would leave no clear path for all three of them with Djoker having the slightly strongest case of all of them.
lmao you literally said rafa will end up with 10 more masters than federer and that makes up for 6 less WTF. Not only is that 10 unlikely, the more likely scenario is that nadal will not have the slam count, djokovic will have either the same slams as ned (or a a few less) but more WTF, same masters, more weeks no 1, more ye no 1 and a better h2h and according to your logic that makes up for djokovics lack of a slam or 2 versus nadal

There is never any clear GOAThood to Nadal. In that above scenario djokovic is better (Nadal aint getting the masters record)
 
#77
My posts are not intended to paint Rafa as the GOAT. They are to point out that if those records fall, Fed definately isn't which is what we've been told non-stop for years despite great evidence that Rafa and DJoker could well take some of his major records. I have repeatedly said that it is quite likely that there will be no clear case for any of the three current ATG's to be GOAT in a couple of years time as they share different important records.
In that case there is no clear case for Nadal being an ATG on clay, as it is possible that 8 or 9 players will surpass his clay slam count and other records and push him out of ATG status there. Also what if Shapavalov gets to 25 slams? He might even do this within the next 25 slams coming up. Oh no what if Fed wins another slam?
 
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#81
If he wins 2 more slams then he is tied at 20 with Fed and his superior H2H will act as the tiebreaker. If he wins one more Aus Open, the DCGS will be enough to break the deadlock as well. This is of course assuming Federer doesn't add to his major tally.
Nadal surpassed Federer long ago by having Multiple majors on Multiple surfaces...the beauty of FO 2019 is it now makes Nadal the most successful player of all time at 33.
 
#82
H2H is useless dues to surface skew
15 outdoor hard (8-7 to rafa)
6 indoor hard (5-1 to roger)
16 clay (14-2 rafa)
3 grass (2-1 to fed)

It's clear that outdoor hard courts are pretty much even, Fed dominates him on indoor hard almost as much as rafa dominates on clay. Grass is even here but I think everyone would agree if they played 10 matches Fed would be north of 5 wins.

Fed's ability to go deep in clay tournaments and meet rafa meant he hurt his own h2h - rafa has not done a great job getting to the tail-end of indoor hard events/most grass events when fed is there.

Not to mention it's a bad match up for Fed.

GOAT is determined by conditions available at the time more than the player - 2 clay slams a year? Rafa is GOAT, 2 grass slams? Fed is GOAT, WTF on clay? Rafa is GOAT.

Fed doesnt win AO 17 if that court isn't as fast as it was.

They are each so good (Rafa, Fed, and Novak) that whoever gets the tip of favourability in the condiitons will usually win
outdoor hard at Majors is 3-1 Nadal. over 5 sets Nadal has the advantage on any surface, there are no 5 set matches indoors which renders indoor tennis irrelevant on the basis Federer fans ignore the masters 1000 table.
 
#83
outdoor hard at Majors is 3-1 Nadal. over 5 sets Nadal has the advantage on any surface, there are no 5 set matches indoors which renders indoor tennis irrelevant on the basis Federer fans ignore the masters 1000 table.
But wont this all be useless if a Mueller or Brown come and take out Nadal first at wimby? Mueller is 2-1 vs Nadal at wimby and brow is 2-0 on grass. Aren;t we getting carried away talking about fedal whe most likely nadal will lose 4R?
 
#84
But wont this all be useless if a Mueller or Brown come and take out Nadal first at wimby? Mueller is 2-1 vs Nadal at wimby and brow is 2-0 on grass. Aren;t we getting carried away talking about fedal whe most likely nadal will lose 4R?
Nah, Nadal doesn't choke vs the likes of Millman and Anderson.....
 
#86
lmao you literally said rafa will end up with 10 more masters than federer and that makes up for 6 less WTF. Not only is that 10 unlikely, the more likely scenario is that nadal will not have the slam count, djokovic will have either the same slams as ned (or a a few less) but more WTF, same masters, more weeks no 1, more ye no 1 and a better h2h and according to your logic that makes up for djokovics lack of a slam or 2 versus nadal

There is never any clear GOAThood to Nadal. In that above scenario djokovic is better (Nadal aint getting the masters record)
Nadal is clear now as GOAT...Multiple majors Multiple surfaces, leader of Masters 1000 table, leader of Major count when all three ATGs at peak at same time....FO 2019 was the decider...nadal came out on top.
 
#88
Nadal is clear now as GOAT...Multiple majors Multiple surfaces, leader of Masters 1000 table, leader of Major count when all three ATGs at peak at same time....FO 2019 was the decider...nadal came out on top.
Nadal is currently strong 3rd wheel to Djokovic. And peak for peak in slams we saw what happened at AO.

Nadal never beating Djokovic at AO automatically makes him inferior to Nadal while DJokovic beaten him everywhere and FO. Sorry.

Also Ned with 0 WTF is not in GOAT discussion. Biggest ATP event.
 
#89
No Nadal won a slam versus mug anderson, possibly the wekest slam finaslit of all time. Nadal will struggle more versus guys who repeatdly beat him like mueller or brown mugerdson is fine
This the mug Anderson who schooled Federer on Federer's best surface and the Anderson who has been ranked higher his whole career than Cecchinatto......…..
 
#91
Nadal is currently strong 3rd wheel to Djokovic. And peak for peak in slams we saw what happened at AO.

Nadal never beating Djokovic at AO automatically makes him inferior to Nadal. Sorry.
Nadal 2-1 Djokovic US Open....Multiple majors multiple surfaces....Olympic Gold...all too easy for nadal. Not Rafa's fault Djokovic cant handle Thiem on clay
 
#94
This the mug Anderson who schooled Federer on Federer's best surface and the Anderson who has been ranked higher his whole career than Cecchinatto......…..
Yes mug anderson who beat ancient federer in a one off however it is different to mug fabio who beat ned on clay repeatdly or brown and mueller who repeatdly beat nadal and have winnnig h2h
 
#96
Yes mug anderson who beat ancient federer in a one off however it is different to mug fabio who beat ned on clay repeatdly or brown and mueller who repeatdly beat nadal and have winnnig h2h
Under 40 is ancient....oh im loving the saltiness, makes FO 2019 my favourite beatdown lol
 
#98
Under 40 is ancient....oh im loving the saltiness, makes FO 2019 my favourite beatdown lol
No players can peak around then. Thats why this year peak Nadal lost on clay to a range of mugs and will lose nexy year to more mugs on clay despite being peak. This is the best version of Nadal on clya we have every seen and he still lost to mugs and a set to mug thiem

Anyway these are moot points. Nadal will finish with neither of the following records so discussiing indivudla touranments is moot/useless. Talk about djokovic instead:

Ned will not have:
Slam record (fed/djoker)
WTF record (lol)
Olympics record (murray)
Masters 1000 (djoker)
ATP 500
ATP 250
Weeks at no 1
YE no 1
H2H (Djokovic will lead fed and ned)
 
In that scenario Rafa wouldn't be outright GOAT - but if Djoker has the weeks at # 1 and YE # 1 records, both he and Rafa have a 10+ title lead in M1000 and Rafa equals or passes the slam record Fed couldn't claim it either which is what we've been told ad-nauseum for 10 years.
No because what might happen is Shapavolov gets the weeks at no 1 and YE no 1 over djokovic and beats their masters records too. That means Nadal and DJokovic don't have any of those records to their name and only fed will be left with the slam record, WTF record etc which would make him GOAT as Nadal and Djokovic have no records then. This might happen and upset the current situation/reality where federer has the slam record/ wtf record/ ye no 1/ weeks no 1/ 3rd masters etc
 
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