Nadal: Novak Djokovic reached a higher level than Roger Federer

NoleFam

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Rafael Nadal believes that Roger Federer is the greatest player he’s come up against during his career based upon the titles he’s won, but he admitted that Novak Djokovic had reached the highest level of tennis that he has faced.

The 16-time Grand Slam champion has played in one of the strongest eras ever seen in tennis, with the trio winning a remarkable 47 majors between them. Federer leads the way in terms of titles won – lifting 19 Slams and 95 ATP titles – but Nadal would not overlook Djokovic as the strongest player he’d faced.

The Serb has lifted 12 major trophies and became just the third man in history to hold all four Slams at one time when he won the French Open in 2016. Djokovic has also beaten Federer twice at Wimbledon – more than any other player – and is one of just two men to beat Nadal at Roland Garros. And Nadal suggested Djokovic’s level surpassed Federer’s at his peak, labelling him as ‘invincible’.

Asked whether Federer was the best he’d ever come up against, Nadal told SER: ‘ Well, it’s complicated. ‘What with titles and what he’s accomplished that says he’s the best in the history of our sport. ‘Is he the best I’ve played against? Well, maybe, yes, I’ve also played the great Djokovic, we’ve run into other really good players. ‘But it’d be unfair to say that Federer isn’t the best I’ve ever played against because the titles and his track record prove that to be the case. ‘But at a technical level, when Djokovic has been at the top of his game, I have to say that I’ve been up against an invincible player.’

Djokovic was forced to withdraw from his Wimbledon quarter-final. The 30-year-old will make his comeback from an elbow injury at the start of next season, having been out of action since retiring from his Wimbledon quarter-final against Tomas Berdych. With Djokovic struggling with injury and form, Nadal and Federer cleaned up at Grand Slam level in 2017 – splitting the four majors equally among themselves. Should the six-time Australian Open return to his best, and Federer and Nadal maintain their excellent form, then 2018 could be something very special.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/05/rafae...c-reached-higher-level-roger-federer-7135524/

So does Nadal have a point and correct, or he doesn't have point and is incorrect?
 
NoleFam said:
Rafael Nadal believes that Roger Federer is the greatest player he’s come up against during his career based upon the titles he’s won, but he admitted that Novak Djokovic had reached the highest level of tennis that he has faced.

The 16-time Grand Slam champion has played in one of the strongest eras ever seen in tennis, with the trio winning a remarkable 47 majors between them. Federer leads the way in terms of titles won – lifting 19 Slams and 95 ATP titles – but Nadal would not overlook Djokovic as the strongest player he’d faced.

The Serb has lifted 12 major trophies and became just the third man in history to hold all four Slams at one time when he won the French Open in 2016. Djokovic has also beaten Federer twice at Wimbledon – more than any other player – and is one of just two men to beat Nadal at Roland Garros. And Nadal suggested Djokovic’s level surpassed Federer’s at his peak, labelling him as ‘invincible’.

Asked whether Federer was the best he’d ever come up against, Nadal told SER: ‘ Well, it’s complicated. ‘What with titles and what he’s accomplished that says he’s the best in the history of our sport. ‘Is he the best I’ve played against? Well, maybe, yes, I’ve also played the great Djokovic, we’ve run into other really good players. ‘But it’d be unfair to say that Federer isn’t the best I’ve ever played against because the titles and his track record prove that to be the case. ‘But at a technical level, when Djokovic has been at the top of his game, I have to say that I’ve been up against an invincible player.’

Djokovic was forced to withdraw from his Wimbledon quarter-final. The 30-year-old will make his comeback from an elbow injury at the start of next season, having been out of action since retiring from his Wimbledon quarter-final against Tomas Berdych. With Djokovic struggling with injury and form, Nadal and Federer cleaned up at Grand Slam level in 2017 – splitting the four majors equally among themselves. Should the six-time Australian Open return to his best, and Federer and Nadal maintain their excellent form, then 2018 could be something very special.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/05/rafae...c-reached-higher-level-roger-federer-7135524/

So does Nadal have a point and correct, or he doesn't have point and is incorrect?
Click to expand...

Meh. Neither Djokovic or Nadal have played a level that has caused them to pass Federer’s GS count.
 
NoleFam said:
Rafael Nadal believes that Roger Federer is the greatest player he’s come up against during his career based upon the titles he’s won, but he admitted that Novak Djokovic had reached the highest level of tennis that he has faced.

The 16-time Grand Slam champion has played in one of the strongest eras ever seen in tennis, with the trio winning a remarkable 47 majors between them. Federer leads the way in terms of titles won – lifting 19 Slams and 95 ATP titles – but Nadal would not overlook Djokovic as the strongest player he’d faced.

The Serb has lifted 12 major trophies and became just the third man in history to hold all four Slams at one time when he won the French Open in 2016. Djokovic has also beaten Federer twice at Wimbledon – more than any other player – and is one of just two men to beat Nadal at Roland Garros. And Nadal suggested Djokovic’s level surpassed Federer’s at his peak, labelling him as ‘invincible’.

Asked whether Federer was the best he’d ever come up against, Nadal told SER: ‘ Well, it’s complicated. ‘What with titles and what he’s accomplished that says he’s the best in the history of our sport. ‘Is he the best I’ve played against? Well, maybe, yes, I’ve also played the great Djokovic, we’ve run into other really good players. ‘But it’d be unfair to say that Federer isn’t the best I’ve ever played against because the titles and his track record prove that to be the case. ‘But at a technical level, when Djokovic has been at the top of his game, I have to say that I’ve been up against an invincible player.’

Djokovic was forced to withdraw from his Wimbledon quarter-final. The 30-year-old will make his comeback from an elbow injury at the start of next season, having been out of action since retiring from his Wimbledon quarter-final against Tomas Berdych. With Djokovic struggling with injury and form, Nadal and Federer cleaned up at Grand Slam level in 2017 – splitting the four majors equally among themselves. Should the six-time Australian Open return to his best, and Federer and Nadal maintain their excellent form, then 2018 could be something very special.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/05/rafae...c-reached-higher-level-roger-federer-7135524/

So does Nadal have a point and correct, or he doesn't have point and is incorrect?
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this. Interesting article and thoughts from Rafa here. I remember him saying similar things not long after 2011 season so Rafa has had this philosophy for a while.

I don't have much else to add but it seems like Nadal has been pretty explicit in terms of how he divides the line with Djokovic and Federer assessing their unique place in the sport to him.
 
every7 said:
Thanks for posting this. Interesting article and thoughts from Rafa here. I remember him saying similar things not long after 2011 season so Rafa has had this philosophy for a while.

I don't have much else to add but it seems like Nadal has been pretty explicit in terms of how he divides the line with Djokovic and Federer assessing their unique place in the sport to him.
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@merwy makes a good point about the match up advantage or lack of when he plays one versus the other, but yea it seems he feels Djokovic is the toughest for him definitely. I remember him saying something like this after that 2016 Doha match.
 
Well Rafael speaks truth..
It's simple maths.
Before 2017, if you look at their H2H then Novak beat Rafael almost twice more than Fed.
Fed did great this year to beat him 4 times, or the H2H record looked one sided.
TO be fair to Fed, Rafa-Nole are same age and Fed is 5 years elder.. Hence the H2H is not in favour of Fed.
 
Djokovic generally plays Nadal harder than Fed does, or at least it would likely appear that way from his perspective. So his comments are his valid opinion, but it's certainly not some objective matter-settling judgement.
 
NoleFam said:
Rafael Nadal believes that Roger Federer is the greatest player he’s come up against during his career based upon the titles he’s won, but he admitted that Novak Djokovic had reached the highest level of tennis that he has faced.

The 16-time Grand Slam champion has played in one of the strongest eras ever seen in tennis, with the trio winning a remarkable 47 majors between them. Federer leads the way in terms of titles won – lifting 19 Slams and 95 ATP titles – but Nadal would not overlook Djokovic as the strongest player he’d faced.

The Serb has lifted 12 major trophies and became just the third man in history to hold all four Slams at one time when he won the French Open in 2016. Djokovic has also beaten Federer twice at Wimbledon – more than any other player – and is one of just two men to beat Nadal at Roland Garros. And Nadal suggested Djokovic’s level surpassed Federer’s at his peak, labelling him as ‘invincible’.

Asked whether Federer was the best he’d ever come up against, Nadal told SER: ‘ Well, it’s complicated. ‘What with titles and what he’s accomplished that says he’s the best in the history of our sport. ‘Is he the best I’ve played against? Well, maybe, yes, I’ve also played the great Djokovic, we’ve run into other really good players. ‘But it’d be unfair to say that Federer isn’t the best I’ve ever played against because the titles and his track record prove that to be the case. ‘But at a technical level, when Djokovic has been at the top of his game, I have to say that I’ve been up against an invincible player.’

Djokovic was forced to withdraw from his Wimbledon quarter-final. The 30-year-old will make his comeback from an elbow injury at the start of next season, having been out of action since retiring from his Wimbledon quarter-final against Tomas Berdych. With Djokovic struggling with injury and form, Nadal and Federer cleaned up at Grand Slam level in 2017 – splitting the four majors equally among themselves. Should the six-time Australian Open return to his best, and Federer and Nadal maintain their excellent form, then 2018 could be something very special.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/05/rafae...c-reached-higher-level-roger-federer-7135524/

So does Nadal have a point and correct, or he doesn't have point and is incorrect?
Click to expand...

There could certainly be a rational argument that Djokovic at his peak is/was the greatest player ever but that Federer was better over a long period. So this is a perfectly plausible statement from Nadal and given that up until this year he had more trouble playing Djoko than Fed that would clearly influence him as well.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this (until the Big 3 have finished their careers how can we make a proper judgement anyway?) just saying it's an argument that can be made.
 
I'd say that yes, Djokovic's level has been more dominant of the field than Federer's at their best.

Problem is, as Nadal stated, that Federer kept up near-best results for far longer stretches of time than Djokovic did. So even if Djokovic was at a slightly higher level of play at their respective peaks, Federer had a much higher level on average, which led to his 19 Grand Slams to Djokovic's 12. One doesn't need to utterly dominate everyone in order to win a Grand Slam, just get to the final and win it.

This is what led to Federer's 18/19 finals. He won against every player but one for 5 years.

Djokovic has had the period of dominance of 2015-2016, where he took out 31 top 10 players in 2015, only losing to 5. Unfortunately for him, he was unable to sustain it for very long, falling off and allowing Nadal and Federer to win 2 more majors. Each.

Furthermore, the relative ELO of both during their strongest moment was exceedingly high, but Djokovic's was higher. It draws more credibility to Nadal's statement.
 
It's true in Nadal's particular case, or in other words, match-up as said by merwy.

Peak Nole is flawless from the baseline, meanwhile peak Federer still has that BH to exploit (for Nadal, of course).

Vs the whole field, it's hard to tell which peak is better though in theory 2011 Djokovic is more impressive than any Fed's year.
 
Usual clickbait, nothing to see here, the title of the article is quite different from what's inside (at least it's not the polar opposite, like this tripe, for example: https://www.express.co.uk/sport/ten...up-Olympics-Grand-Slams-ATP-World-Tour-Finals: "Roger Federer has hinted he has retired from the Davis Cup", and in the article "I havent officially retired from the Davis Cup"). And it's perfectly logical for Nadal to say that, considering the losses he's had to Djokovic; however, you can be sure he'll change his tune in a heartbeat should he lose a few more times in a row to Federer, especially if Djokovic comes back a lesser player than he was before and Nadal is now able to beat him again.
 
Match-up wise, Djokovic has been tougher for Nadal, no question.

It seems like Nadal views Federer as the best he has played against in terms of accomplishments, while he views Djokovic as the best he has played against in terms of the difficulty of the match-up.
 
No question that all three are all time greats. I think Djokovic and Federer have had more sustained dominance across many seasons at a time. From a matchup standpoint, 2017 notwithstanding, the clear advantage goes to Djokovic against Nadal. Anyway - all three all time greats. I hope we see a good season from them all in 2018.
 
NoleFam said:
Rafael Nadal believes that Roger Federer is the greatest player he’s come up against during his career based upon the titles he’s won, but he admitted that Novak Djokovic had reached the highest level of tennis that he has faced.

The 16-time Grand Slam champion has played in one of the strongest eras ever seen in tennis, with the trio winning a remarkable 47 majors between them. Federer leads the way in terms of titles won – lifting 19 Slams and 95 ATP titles – but Nadal would not overlook Djokovic as the strongest player he’d faced.

The Serb has lifted 12 major trophies and became just the third man in history to hold all four Slams at one time when he won the French Open in 2016. Djokovic has also beaten Federer twice at Wimbledon – more than any other player – and is one of just two men to beat Nadal at Roland Garros. And Nadal suggested Djokovic’s level surpassed Federer’s at his peak, labelling him as ‘invincible’.

Asked whether Federer was the best he’d ever come up against, Nadal told SER: ‘ Well, it’s complicated. ‘What with titles and what he’s accomplished that says he’s the best in the history of our sport. ‘Is he the best I’ve played against? Well, maybe, yes, I’ve also played the great Djokovic, we’ve run into other really good players. ‘But it’d be unfair to say that Federer isn’t the best I’ve ever played against because the titles and his track record prove that to be the case. ‘But at a technical level, when Djokovic has been at the top of his game, I have to say that I’ve been up against an invincible player.’

Djokovic was forced to withdraw from his Wimbledon quarter-final. The 30-year-old will make his comeback from an elbow injury at the start of next season, having been out of action since retiring from his Wimbledon quarter-final against Tomas Berdych. With Djokovic struggling with injury and form, Nadal and Federer cleaned up at Grand Slam level in 2017 – splitting the four majors equally among themselves. Should the six-time Australian Open return to his best, and Federer and Nadal maintain their excellent form, then 2018 could be something very special.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/05/rafae...c-reached-higher-level-roger-federer-7135524/

So does Nadal have a point and correct, or he doesn't have point and is incorrect?
Click to expand...
Read his words carefully. Did he really make a statement, or is he nuancing his answer? I'd say the latter. Nadal has a reputation for being a lot less intelligent than he really is, because of his rather broken English.

Reading between the lines I'd say he is trying to give both players equal credit without saying too much. Very diplomatic. ;)
 
Nadal has worked them both out on the biggest stages, so don't really care what he says :)

4830160-tumblr_n5hlboihpp1rgn3nyo5_400.gif

deee58b067fe93e226d576e2bfa75afa08b70d48_hq.gif
 
TripleATeam said:
I'd say that yes, Djokovic's level has been more dominant of the field than Federer's at their best.
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I wouldn't. Federer wouldn't have lost to players like Andy Murray, Kei Nishikori or Stan Wawrinka in big matches.

TripleATeam said:
Problem is, as Nadal stated, that Federer kept up near-best results for far longer stretches of time than Djokovic did. So even if Djokovic was at a slightly higher level of play at their respective peaks, Federer had a much higher level on average, which led to his 19 Grand Slams to Djokovic's 12. One doesn't need to utterly dominate everyone in order to win a Grand Slam, just get to the final and win it.
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The problem really is that Djokovic had so-so competition during these periods. Nobody to test himself against in terms of "peak level". It must be noted that a past prime Federer gave peak Novak a run for his money in many matches.

TripleATeam said:
This is what led to Federer's 18/19 finals. He won against every player but one for 5 years.
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Federer had tougher competition before finals, really. Also proved you wrong by hammering Stan and Andy in big matches in 2015. He was just slightly past his best at 33/34 and the field didn't test him like other eras.

TripleATeam said:
Djokovic has had the period of dominance of 2015-2016, where he took out 31 top 10 players in 2015, only losing to 5. Unfortunately for him, he was unable to sustain it for very long, falling off and allowing Nadal and Federer to win 2 more majors. Each.
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That's also seen as a true weak period, with only old man Fed and Andy Murray as his best competition.

Pretty bad nobody is around to stop 35/36 year old Fed from winning slams. It'd be a mark against him if he didn't beat mid 30s Fed at his very peak but it really isn't something to use as proof.

TripleATeam said:
Furthermore, the relative ELO of both during their strongest moment was exceedingly high, but Djokovic's was higher. It draws more credibility to Nadal's statement.
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Elo is a rubbish way to determine who had the higher peak.
 
NoleFam said:
Rafael Nadal believes that Roger Federer is the greatest player he’s come up against during his career based upon the titles he’s won, but he admitted that Novak Djokovic had reached the highest level of tennis that he has faced.

The 16-time Grand Slam champion has played in one of the strongest eras ever seen in tennis, with the trio winning a remarkable 47 majors between them. Federer leads the way in terms of titles won – lifting 19 Slams and 95 ATP titles – but Nadal would not overlook Djokovic as the strongest player he’d faced.

The Serb has lifted 12 major trophies and became just the third man in history to hold all four Slams at one time when he won the French Open in 2016. Djokovic has also beaten Federer twice at Wimbledon – more than any other player – and is one of just two men to beat Nadal at Roland Garros. And Nadal suggested Djokovic’s level surpassed Federer’s at his peak, labelling him as ‘invincible’.

Asked whether Federer was the best he’d ever come up against, Nadal told SER: ‘ Well, it’s complicated. ‘What with titles and what he’s accomplished that says he’s the best in the history of our sport. ‘Is he the best I’ve played against? Well, maybe, yes, I’ve also played the great Djokovic, we’ve run into other really good players. ‘But it’d be unfair to say that Federer isn’t the best I’ve ever played against because the titles and his track record prove that to be the case. ‘But at a technical level, when Djokovic has been at the top of his game, I have to say that I’ve been up against an invincible player.’

Djokovic was forced to withdraw from his Wimbledon quarter-final. The 30-year-old will make his comeback from an elbow injury at the start of next season, having been out of action since retiring from his Wimbledon quarter-final against Tomas Berdych. With Djokovic struggling with injury and form, Nadal and Federer cleaned up at Grand Slam level in 2017 – splitting the four majors equally among themselves. Should the six-time Australian Open return to his best, and Federer and Nadal maintain their excellent form, then 2018 could be something very special.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/05/rafae...c-reached-higher-level-roger-federer-7135524/

So does Nadal have a point and correct, or he doesn't have point and is incorrect?
Click to expand...
Considering Rafa's h2h against Federer and Djokovic I'd say Rafa is spot on. Rafa is more or less even with Djokovic but leads Fed in their h2h by a wide margin.
 
NoleFam said:
Rafael Nadal believes that Roger Federer is the greatest player he’s come up against during his career based upon the titles he’s won, but he admitted that Novak Djokovic had reached the highest level of tennis that he has faced.

The 16-time Grand Slam champion has played in one of the strongest eras ever seen in tennis, with the trio winning a remarkable 47 majors between them. Federer leads the way in terms of titles won – lifting 19 Slams and 95 ATP titles – but Nadal would not overlook Djokovic as the strongest player he’d faced.

The Serb has lifted 12 major trophies and became just the third man in history to hold all four Slams at one time when he won the French Open in 2016. Djokovic has also beaten Federer twice at Wimbledon – more than any other player – and is one of just two men to beat Nadal at Roland Garros. And Nadal suggested Djokovic’s level surpassed Federer’s at his peak, labelling him as ‘invincible’.

Asked whether Federer was the best he’d ever come up against, Nadal told SER: ‘ Well, it’s complicated. ‘What with titles and what he’s accomplished that says he’s the best in the history of our sport. ‘Is he the best I’ve played against? Well, maybe, yes, I’ve also played the great Djokovic, we’ve run into other really good players. ‘But it’d be unfair to say that Federer isn’t the best I’ve ever played against because the titles and his track record prove that to be the case. ‘But at a technical level, when Djokovic has been at the top of his game, I have to say that I’ve been up against an invincible player.’

Djokovic was forced to withdraw from his Wimbledon quarter-final. The 30-year-old will make his comeback from an elbow injury at the start of next season, having been out of action since retiring from his Wimbledon quarter-final against Tomas Berdych. With Djokovic struggling with injury and form, Nadal and Federer cleaned up at Grand Slam level in 2017 – splitting the four majors equally among themselves. Should the six-time Australian Open return to his best, and Federer and Nadal maintain their excellent form, then 2018 could be something very special.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/05/rafae...c-reached-higher-level-roger-federer-7135524/

So does Nadal have a point and correct, or he doesn't have point and is incorrect?
Click to expand...
Is Federer greater? Well yes, because of his accomplishments he will be considered the greatest. Was Djokovic at his peak better? Well it's a difficult question to answer, and i really dont care that much.

Its probably 10 years between their peaks, and the changes in technology, conditions and tactics will surely be in favour of the younger player. Djokovic has also had the pleasure of watching Nadal/Roger and develop his game watching/playing them. As i have said earlier, Messi is without doubt a better player than Maradona, but is it really interesting? Its about 25 years between their peaks, so it's easier to see, but 10 years isnt irrelevant.

You also have to take surface into consideration. Nadals peak level on clay is obviously better than Djokovic imo, claiming anything else would be strange given that the FO stat is 10-1. Personally i also think peak Fed would defeat Djoker on grass, grass is Djokers worst surface after all. On medium/slow HC, Djokovic might have the highest level ever.
 
So he's talking purely about a match up against himself? He said something similar after his defeat to Djokovic at Doha 2016 didn't he? Nothing too controversial here really, Djokovic has laid plenty of impressive beat downs on Rafa over the years, Paris 09, Rome 11, Doha 16 just to name a few. Probably my top three Novak levels against Rafa. Nothing Rafa could have done IMO, especially when it's played on hard-court against a peaking Novak.
 
The Green Mile said:
So he's talking purely about a match up against himself? He said something similar after his defeat to Djokovic at Doha 2016 didn't he? Nothing too controversial here really, Djokovic has laid plenty of impressive beat downs on Rafa over the years, Paris 09, Rome 11, Doha 16 just to name a few. Probably my top three Novak levels against Rafa. Nothing Rafa could have done IMO, especially when it's played on hard-court against a peaking Novak.
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Nadal has also laid plenty of impressive beat downs on Djokovic over the years - 24 to be precise as opposed to Djokovic's 26.

 
clayqueen said:
Nadal has also laid plenty of impressive beat downs on Djokovic over the years - 23 to be precise as opposed to Djokovic's 25.
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Rome 07 and FO 08 are probably my personal favorites when it comes to beat downs, though many of Nadal's wins are hard fought victories.
 
Gary Duane said:
Read his words carefully. Did he really make a statement, or is he nuancing his answer? I'd say the latter. Nadal has a reputation for being a lot less intelligent than he really is, because of his rather broken English.

Reading between the lines I'd say he is trying to give both players equal credit without saying too much. Very diplomatic. ;)
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Rafa "has a reputation for being a lot less intelligent than he really is" in Fedfans' alternate universe, not in the real world.
 
The Green Mile said:
So he's talking purely about a match up against himself? He said something similar after his defeat to Djokovic at Doha 2016 didn't he? Nothing too controversial here really, Djokovic has laid plenty of impressive beat downs on Rafa over the years, Paris 09, Rome 11, Doha 16 just to name a few. Probably my top three Novak levels against Rafa. Nothing Rafa could have done IMO, especially when it's played on hard-court against a peaking Novak.
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Both Fed and Nole have delivered comprehensive beatdowns to Rafa on HC.
 
clayqueen said:
Considering Rafa's h2h against Federer and Djokovic I'd say Rafa is spot on. Rafa is more or less even with Djokovic but leads Fed in their h2h by a wide margin.
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After 38 matches:

Rafa-Nole: 22-16
Rafa-Fed: 23-15.

Pretty similar. H2H wise, Djoker hasn't seen better success against Nadal after 38 matches than Federer.
 
I think he's is talking about his POV....of course Djokovic has given him far more problems than Federer has throughout his career. Doesn't mean he was at a higher level
 
The Green Mile said:
Rome 07 and FO 08 are probably my personal favorites when it comes to beat downs, though many of Nadal's wins are hard fought victories.
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How did you come to the conclusion that Nadal's victories over Djokovic are hard fought? Would you care to look at the facts:

http://www.stevegtennis.com/head-to-head/men/Novak_Djokovic/Rafael_Nadal/

Up to 2011, Nadal virtually owned Djokovic until Djokovic was re-created in 2011 and since 2012, Rafa has played either injured or recovering from injury.
 
mike danny said:
After 38 matches:

Rafa-Nole: 22-16
Rafa-Fed: 23-15.

Pretty similar. H2H wise, Djoker hasn't seen better success against Nadal after 38 matches than Federer.
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I actually believe that Djokovic and Nadal are an even match against each other but Nadal has found it easier to get the better of Federer.
 
clayqueen said:
I actually believe that Djokovic and Nadal are an even match against each other but Nadal has found it easier to get the better of Federer.
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Match-up wise, yes, Federer is easier for Nadal than Djokovic is. But that's just the nature of match-ups, which is the essence of tennis.
 
mike danny said:
After 38 matches:

Rafa-Nole: 22-16
Rafa-Fed: 23-15.

Pretty similar. H2H wise, Djoker hasn't seen better success against Nadal after 38 matches than Federer.
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Fed would never lead the H2H against Nadal even after 50 matches though, and Djokovic would never trail by 13 wins. ;)
 
TheAssassin said:
Fed would never lead the H2H against Nadal even after 50 matches though, and Djokovic would never trail by 13 wins. ;)
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Maybe, but Fed trailing by 13 wins was the result of him meeting Nadal in 2013 in his worst form, with Nadal unable to return the favor as often in 2015. ;)

That's the sole reason the H2H was this lopsided in the first place, which many Nadal fans fail to acknowledge.
 
Sabratha said:
The problem really is that Djokovic had so-so competition during these periods. Nobody to test himself against in terms of "peak level". It must be noted that a past prime Federer gave peak Novak a run for his money in many matches. That's also seen as a true weak period, with only old man Fed and Andy Murray as his best competition.
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Yes, I had thought I addressed the competition issue. It seems I neglected to. However, that ends up becoming a whole "weak era" debate, and I'm not going into that here. There's no way to solve that, so I normally follow the idea that all else being equal, what do the stats say?

Sabratha said:
I wouldn't. Federer wouldn't have lost to players like Andy Murray, Kei Nishikori or Stan Wawrinka in big matches.
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First, Kei? I was referring to 2015-2016 Djokovic, who beat Kei in every match they played, losing only 2 sets in 8 matches. That aside, you don't know how well Federer would fare against these players. Since 2007, Djokovic has had only 3 losses to Wawrinka, 2 of which were Grand Slam finals. You'd have never expected that until you saw it happen. Similarly, we've never seen Federer face Wawrinka in a Grand Slam final. You don't know what would happen. H2H only takes you so far, and Wawrinka finds ways to subvert expectations.

As for Murray, I admit Fed has him mostly figured out, but it was a bad matchup for him early on, which is the peak Federer we are referring to, no? However, yes, Federer would probably not lose to Murray too often. Their record in big matches is 5-2. Djokovic - Murray is 8 - 3 in big matches, so I don't see too much of a difference, admittedly, though I may be looking through rose-colored glasses.

Sabratha said:
Federer had tougher competition before finals, really. Also proved you wrong by hammering Stan and Andy in big matches in 2015. He was just slightly past his best at 33/34 and the field didn't test him like other eras.
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Yeah, maybe, since he had newcomers Murray and Djokovic in his half of the draw before their ranking caught up to their skill. But I don't know, 2006 Australian vs 2016 Australian looks like 2016 had the harder draw. No real challenge in both 2005 US and 2015 US. 2005 WIM was definitely harder for Fed than 2015 WIM for Djokovic. But looking at each, I don't see too big of a discrepancy. At least nothing big enough to amount to an upset against a peak version of either. I could be wrong.

Sabratha said:
Elo is a rubbish way to determine who had the higher peak.
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Well, it tests how good one is against their competition. Ideally, ELO shows how good a player is against the greats that preceded them and the points in the sport remain constant. However, I'm not saying it doesn't have its flaws, I'm just saying that if we assume competition is constant (which of course, it isn't, but again, won't go into that) Djokovic measures up better against the field than Federer did. The way to measure a "strong field" via ELO would be to see distribution of points- if they are concentrated near the top in a few players, the competition is either weak, or those players are extremely strong. If it is distributed well, then it could be there just isn't any good players, or that everyone is good. Competition weighting is all based on opinion.

That aside, it was just another point; ignore it if you believe it's bad.
 
clayqueen said:
How did you come to the conclusion that Nadal's victories over Djokovic are hard fought? Would you care to look at the facts:

http://www.stevegtennis.com/head-to-head/men/Novak_Djokovic/Rafael_Nadal/
.
Click to expand...

Sure, let's look at the facts:

In Djokovic's 26 wins, he's won 55.7% of all points and has a 1.39 dominance ratio.

In Nadal's 24 wins, he's won 53.7% of points and has a 1.23 DR.

Djokovic has straight-setted Nadal 20 times. Nadal has straight-setted Djokovic 14 times.

Djokovic has 8 matches where he's won 58+% of all points. Nadal has 3 such matches.

What about 56+%? Djokovic has eclipsed that mark 14 times in their h2h, Nadal 7. How about 60+%? 4 times for Djokovic, once for Nadal.

@The Green Mile had no agenda, best I can tell, and his recollections are backed up by the stats. Even a cursory glance at their matches would reveal this. Nadal has more wins of the hard-fought variety, while Djokovic has more blow-out wins. No shame in being honest.
 
TheFifthSet said:
Sure, let's look at the facts:

In Djokovic's 26 wins, he's won 55.7% of all points and has a 1.39 dominance ratio.

In Nadal's 24 wins, he's won 53.7% of points and has a 1.23 DR.

Djokovic has straight-setted Nadal 20 times. Nadal has straight-setted Djokovic 14 times.

Djokovic has 8 matches where he's won 58+% of all points. Nadal has 3 such matches.

What about 56+%? Djokovic has eclipsed that mark 14 times in their h2h, Nadal 7. How about 60+%? 4 times for Djokovic, once for Nadal.

@The Green Mile had no agenda, best I can tell, and his recollections are backed up by the stats. Even a cursory glance at their matches would reveal this. Nadal has more wins of the hard-fought variety, while Djokovic has more blow-out wins. No shame in being honest.
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What you've missed out is that Djokovic's numbers are all since 2011 when he was reincarnated. Whilst I reluctantly give him 2011, Rafa was constantly injured or recovering from injury between 2012 and 2016 so was evidently not playing at his best and that's when Djoko got most of his wins.
 
clayqueen said:
What you've missed out is that Djokovic's numbers are all since 2011 when he was reincarnated. Whilst I reluctantly give him 2011, Rafa was constantly injured or recovering from injury between 2012 and 2016 so was evidently not playing at his best and that's when Djoko got most of his wins.
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Then how did he win 4 slams? Don't say "because he was good enough to play injured and still win." Nadal was imperious on clay where Djokovic (a pretty good clay player himself) couldn't stop him. He could, however, stop him in 2015, when Nadal was actually recovering from injury. Also, Nadal couldn't have had a dominant 2013 if he were recovering from injury.

Frankly, this seem like "Djokovic's peak doesn't count because Nadal didn't win at that time" to me. We could say the same about pre-2011: "Djokovic was suffering from stamina issues. That means it doesn't count."
 
mike danny said:
Maybe, but Fed trailing by 13 wins was the result of him meeting Nadal in 2013 in his worst form, with Nadal unable to return the favor as often in 2015. ;)

That's the sole reason the H2H was this lopsided in the first place, which many Nadal fans fail to acknowledge.
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Yeah it's skewed, everyone knows that. But Fed wouldn't do as good or better against Nadal than Djokovic has in any scenario.
 
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