Incognito
Legend
Novak is GOAT but …..not on clay, not on Grass and not at the USO.
Nadal owns Phillippe Chartrier - But Djokovic....
- Thread starter Hitman
- Start date
intrepidish
Hall of Fame
This thread...
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Legend
Another Djokovic thread about nothing.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
2-0 in slam finals. Ultimately greatness comes down to performing at ones best in the most pressurised moments, i.e slam finals and Olympics medal matches. They are the most mentally pressurized moments. I have said mulitple times how highly i regard Djokovic's Olympic win over Alcaraz.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Thats harsh. He didnt vulture in 2011. By the end of 2014 when it was a strong era with Murray Delpo Ferrer, Wawrinka, Verdasco Berdych, Cilic (all of whom significantly better than Zverev Tsitspas and Medvedev and Kyrgios) all in their pomp as well as the Big 3, Djokovic had won 7 slams so he was an ATG at that time already.
He is a God of tennis. Is he as great as Nadal and Federer will always be a debate, and i suspect in a few years Sinner and Alcaraz will be in that debate.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
LOl how have you worked that out? Thats like saying Nadal's best moment came at Wimbledon in 2008. Obviously it is an absurd suggestion.
Djokovic will get his adulation in due course, but it will be on RLA. Maybe he gets a plaque there as well. He should at least get a statue.
when he gets his big send off there, perhaps we will have a thread saying Nadals greatest moments came on RLA, after all it is where he got the slam record and a DCGS. Not sure i would buy into that personally but everyone sees things a bit different i guess.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Not sure Borg played for second best bookmarks tbh.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Nadal didn't make nearly as much history on RLA as Djokovic did on Chatrier. He set multiple records there as outlined in the OP.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Didn't they just give Djokovic a trophy for breaking the slam record and winning the race? A RG trophy with all his wins? Says it all really.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
I didn't see a universal outpouring of credit given to Nadal after the Miracle in Melbourne, lest we forget where the Slam Record at the time was set and he got his DCGS. I saw lots of talk about asterisks because the GOAT of that event wasn't present. Funny thing is, i dont recall Nadal being present at the FO in 2023 or 2016 either.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Nadal set the slam record on RLA and got the DCGS there. I would venture to suggest an own goal has been scored on this topic a little bit.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Djokovic got the NCYGS on Chatrier (1st man in history to do it on 3 surfaces), and did all the stuff in the OP including setting the Slam record, the DCGS and TCGS.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
The level of insecurity being shown - How dare anyone else be celebrated for achieving anything on THAT court.
Many players have achieved incredible milestones in their careers at different slams.
Ashe is special for Nadal in the sense he completed the career slam and the career golden slam on it.
PC is special for Federer because he completed the career slam and finally caught Pete.
The bitterness is palpable, but it doesn't change the magical milestones Djokovic achieved on PC, it is a special court for him in a unique way, he completed his dream of winning all four slams, his career long ambition of breaking the slam record and winning gold for his country...yeah, but how dare you speak about it, because of Nadal. Talk about lame.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
It's just a fact that Djokovic made a lot of history on Chatrier, which came after some heartbreaking defeats. He had a lot of disappointment on that court before he ended having great success, and making history on it. I don't see what's controversial about pointing that out. It's not like the court will ever belong to anyone but Nadal. It even has his footprint on it. Lol.
UnderArmServeOP
Hall of Fame
Leave it to Hole fans to try undermining another players celebration. Crazy.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Nadal got the DCS and Slam Record on RLA. Fine if people want to project Djokovic having his most iconic moments on Chatrier, but then by the same token, they have to accept Nadal had his on RLA. The points being raised are identical.
Personally i think its a bit daft to argue that players best moments came at events they suffered their biggest defeats on. Everyone has their own view point. I'll remember Rafa more for RG and the USO. i am surprised Novak fans seem to want to focus on Chatrier so much. I do wonder if perhaps that is because the AO ultimately doesnt have the prestige of the other Majors? Ive no idea, but i will always consider Djokovic's best moments on RLA, just like Federer and Sampras on Centre Court.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Exactly. This is the worst court and slam for Djokovic success wise, yet he still managed to have a career on it, that barring only two players, pretty much everyone else would want, because he has three slams and gold on it.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Nah, leave to insecure fans to not even see when the OP was made - Yeah, the day that Djokovic won the Olympics....it was brought back up by a Federer fan. But of course, its those pesky Djokovic fans again....
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Same with Nadal on RLA isnt it. Identical in fact. Federer fans will make same argument for Flushing Meadows i guess. Its just a strange thing to bring up really as hardly unique
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I have no idea what you're arguing when it's laid out in full detail. No one said it's the court Djokovic will be most remembered for, since he "only" has 3 there when he has 10 at the AO and 7 at Wimbledon. We're talking about the milestones for his career that were set there. Actually, a lot of the most important milestones of his career happened there.
NCGYS, CGS, DCGS, TCGS, Super Slam and Career Golden Slam all happened there. So again, what are you talking about exactly?
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Don't forget - COMPLETED TENNIS
Ask Djokovic, if he doesn't have wonderful memories coming back to that court. LOL - I'm sure he will tell you that while it is not his most successful court, he has some very special iconic moments that helped him become in the eyes of most, the greatest player of all time.
UnderArmServeOP
Hall of Fame
Exactly, resurrecting an year old thread conveniently when Rafa's RG achievements are being celebrated. Nole fans don't even try to hide it anymore lol
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I think it's just interesting that it's his worst court but then at the same time it is also the court where he won all his career Slams, completed things that hadn't been done before in the game on the men's side, and completed tennis.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Did you even read the rest of what I said....?
It was brought back from the dead by a Federer fan....try harder.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea that's the most important one but I did mention it in the last post though, lol.Don't forget - COMPLETED TENNIS
Ask Djokovic, if he doesn't have wonderful memories coming back to that court. LOL - I'm sure he will tell you that while it is not his most successful court, he has some very special iconic moments that helped him become in the eyes of most, the greatest player of all time.
UnderArmServeOP
Hall of Fame
Airspun is a Djoko fan bro. Is PP might be Fed but if you've seen his posts, you'll know.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
This is exactly the point. After long after he is gone, many new players will forge their achievements on these courts, including RLA.
What exactly is the insecurity for? Only one player is allowed to have achievements per court? LOL
I guess then what Federer did at Centre Court doesn't count, because Martina won more overall....
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
They did for Nadal as well on RLA lol. He literally broke Federer's record there and got his DCGS. Nadal got the Golden Slam at Flushing Meadow. Nadal got all his big milestones on his worse surface as well. You miss my point, which is i personally am not one for massively celebrating achievements on a court where the guy i support suffered his most disappointing losses in his career. I genuinely find it a bemusing thing to do, but each to their own.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
True True.
Anyways, this is sport and new legacies will always be written. That is how it works. The greatest of the court remains the greatest, but you cannot be the greatest if only your achievements matter.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
It's just projection bro from salty fans. Lol. At the end of the day, Nadal is now retired. There's not going to be many threads of his in the gppd section. One day soon, that will happen to Djokovic as well.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
I dont think there was any malice intended by whoever brought it up at all. It just seems a weird thing to celebrate given Djokovic suffered arguably his most career defining losses on Chatrier but it perhaps does also illustrate that Roland Garros is significantly more prestigious than the AO, which i dont think there can be much debate about given the global coverage Rafa's ceremony got, which i dont think would have happened at any slam other than Wimbledon. It was interesting actually listening to commentators, some of whom clearly were a bit envious of Nadal's ceremony, wheeling out the argument that Nadal made Roland Garros much more well known, which said everything i needed to know about many of these 'experts'
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I'm clearly wasting my time since I laid out 7 different milestones Djokovic reached on Chatrier but you are trying to argue Nadal did that on RLA. He obviously didn't and it's ok, since he achieved great things on multiple courts himself. Pointing out that Djokovic did great things on Chatrier doesn't undermine Nadal's RG success.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I know there is a lot of projection from salty fans, a lot of is coming from the fact that Djokovic is still out there and can still add to his career, while the other's are gone. It is what it is, I mean looking at the overtime being put into this thread, because it pressed so much is sad. Hopefully it all calms down when Djokovic also rides off into the sunset. Those achievements are legit factual milestones that will be part of tennis history, no one's opinion on what counts doesn't change that. Anyways bro, I think its all good.
mtommer
Hall of Fame
Nah, they don't. I don't care. Neither do many others. Neither do many others who run the tournament. They certainly have no desire to erect a statue of him there or recognize him how you feel he should be. So, perhaps it's you and other fans of his who care and most don't care about his fans, you, or him. *shrug*
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
You are missing the point. By your criteria, Nadal's biggest milestones came on RLA. The point being made is identical. All i am saying it is a strange thing to celebrate as the career lows outweigh the career highs. The secondary point though, and its once that maybe is not immediately obvious, but can definitely be inferred, is the status of Roland Garros, and i have always suspected as far back as the 80s there has been a resentment towards Roland Garros from many within Australia Britain and the USA, the traditional superpowers of tennis going back decades, non of whom had clay courts as surfaces they brought players up on. The commentators i was listening to were doing so many snide backhanded compliments you could feel the envy towards what Roland Garros is and has been. I know this last bit is a bit off topic but it kind of is very relevant
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
It actually makes perfect sense. He got his wins there later than at all other slams, because he had to wait a long time before getting a chance to win it.
Let's be real, RG 2016 would barely make it into the top-20 of his best slam wins if it wasn't about the career slam. It is ONLY remembered because it was the last slam he had to complete for a career slam. This is just based on emotions of fans, without any logic in it. Because if we take his first wins at every slam, this one was clearly the worst (by both level of play and competition), not even close.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Well, they just gave him a trophy for breaking the slam record there, only something they were going to give once it was official the other two were retired.. No one is asking for a statue or a celebration, that's you projecting. Anyways, I'm done here.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea pretty much. Just because Nadal won more there than anyone probably ever will in history doesn't mean fans of another player can't talk about his success there.
Well that's it. There a lot of bitterness and projection of their own insecurities. It's just a fact that he made some of his own history and tennis history at RG, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out.I know there is a lot of projection from salty fans, a lot of is coming from the fact that Djokovic is still out there and can still add to his career, while the other's are gone. It is what it is, I mean looking at the overtime being put into this thread, because it pressed so much is sad. Hopefully it all calms down when Djokovic also rides off into the sunset. Those achievements are legit factual milestones that will be part of tennis history, no one's opinion on what counts doesn't change that. Anyways bro, I think its all good.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic will get his recognition at the AO., deservedly so. I am am totally baffled by this desire to celebrate his career on Chatrier as if he should get some sort of recognition though (i assume that's the motive here). I mean Borg dwarfs Djokovic on Chatrier. Id argue so does Kuerten as well as he dominated there in his time. Federer himself completed the Grand Slam set at the FO.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
As did Nadal on RLA so i am delighted you agree there were never any asterisks. Like i say we have identical scenarios here. So all is good.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
No different to Federer 2009 then.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Didn't say it was during his whole career. However, remove the asterisk era and he barely has any records. Yeah, that is vulturing. And no, the likes of Ferrer, Berdych, Cilic were not any better than the younger generation.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Of course that is the reason, which is obvious because again it's his worst court, but if he failed like so many ATGs before him, he never would have done any of those things.
His level of play in RG 2016 was the highest of any of his RG wins and probably only RG 2013 is a rival to it. His peak level of play in AO 2016 and RG 2016 were the highest of his career imo. So yea, having Nadal out of the way was a huge plus for him to do it, but you still have to win 7 matches; that's not easy playing 4 days in a row, with so much pressure to win 4 in a row and complete the career Slam.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Don't think anyone says otherwise. Actually, Federer fans never even tried to deny it, even though his competition was significantly stronger than Djokovic's 2016. Most Federer fans do agree that him not having to face Nadal is what made the main difference that year, not that he suddenly played much better than in all other years.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
These three were miles better than Tsitsipas Medvedev and Zverev. I agree not as good as Sinner and Alcaraz.
I agree that Djokovics records probably came a bit too late to be that meaningful and he may be the Margaret Court of this era, time will tell, but he is part of tennis royalty and obviously in the same league as Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer and Nadal. That is undisputed fact and he deserves all the adulation i am sure he will eventually get (that said i was shocked at how empty the stadium was for his match today, lots of empty seats)
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Nadal did make his own history at RLA by setting the Slam record and winning his DCS, and nothing wrong with talking about those. They're obviously not identical though but if you want to believe they are, then fine.
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Just for the record, so that i do not inadvertently tar you with an unfair brush, do you agree that Nadal's AO 2022 win was in no way asterisked?
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Makes sense. You don't have much to compare. Of course, years like 2023 made us redefine the meaning of weak slams, lol.
It's not just Nadal. He also avoided Wawrinka, who beat him the year before, and didn't even have a 30 years old Federer to challenge him this time. His main rival was Murray who totally collapsed after 1 set. (and honestly, should have lost in the first round)
messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
Well they are lol. Literally identical points. Ive no issue with any of this, i just wonder why a Djokovic fan would celebrate his achievements on Chatrier apparently more than RLA. Seems bizarre to me. Nothing Djokovic achieved in his career would have been much beyond Borg's career or Sampras without what he did on RLA. Same with Nadal on Chatrier.
Trust me, just chill, Djokovic will get his big moment eventually, and it will be on RLA.
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