Nadal shouldn't be whining about not having clay courts at the ATP World Tour Finals

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In an interview with Britain's Daily Mail(Put clay on the O2 courts and give my knees a break!), Nadal told Stuart Fraser:

"I believe that it’s not fair that a player like me really never played on a surface that was a little bit more favourable. I always played on the worst surface possible for me.

"If it’s indoor at the 02, then great, but you can build a different type of surface there. It is a fantastic place to organise a World Tour Finals. The atmosphere is just amazing and I am very happy it is there. I enjoy it every time I have had the chance to be there, but we can play on clay there too." -Rafael Nadal

According to Chris Chase from USA Today, he said Nadal shouldn't be to complaining about O2 courts are not on clay.
Rafael Nadal shouldn't be whining about not having clay courts at the ATP World Tour Finals
 
I do think that if we really want to consider the WTF the crowning event of the season, having it on slow low-bouncing indoor hard every single time is a bit silly. The way it is now (and the way it has pretty much always been), it is basically the final event of the indoor hardcourt season, which is totally fine, but IMO is not really in line with how they market the event as the ultimate clincher to the season. They should either change the format, or not market it the way they do IMO (although I can see why they do, they want to sell as many tickets as possible).
 
welcome again to the...
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This is like saying it's not fair RG is always on clay. Neither of the HC slams are indoors so makes sense to have next biggest event indoors. Would Nadal have prefered the AO had been indoors all these years? If there was an idoor hard slam he might still be searching for the career slam (or maybe he'd have een more motivated, who knows) It's weird because Nadal is the guy who defied people saying he'd never win on grass and then HC and then faster HC, so I always thought he would just find a way to win at the WTF on indoor hard anyway. But It does prove he wants to win it and it's not a meaningless exhibition.
 
President said:
I do think that if we really want to consider the WTF the crowning event of the season, having it on slow low-bouncing indoor hard every single time is a bit silly. The way it is now (and the way it has pretty much always been), it is basically the final event of the indoor hardcourt season, which is totally fine, but IMO is not really in line with how they market the event as the ultimate clincher to the season. They should either change the format, or not market it the way they do IMO (although I can see why they do, they want to sell as many tickets as possible).
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They aren't going to re-conceive the event. It has now a long tradition of 45 years of being the season end finals. For most of that history it has been rated, because of that, as only a little lower than a slam in value. No reason to change it.

It hasn't always been indoor. There were 3 instances when it was outdoor. Once on grass at Koyoong in the 70's and twice in Houston on outdoor hard last decade. The reasons for it being indoor are as follows.

1/ Most of tennis is played in the northern hemisphere (and I am from the Southern Hemisphere saying this) - hence it is colder and poorer outdoor conditions generally come November. Hence, the choice to play indoor.

2/ November is on the back Oct/Nov indoor season. It makes sense to have the premier event post-USO as part of the indoor season.

I am kind of frustrated that Nadal has complained about it. So much of tennis has gone in his direction, to favour him, in the last 10 years (coincidently - I don't mean to imply that any one has done things with him in mind), in terms of the massive slow down of surfaces etc. The one place that doesn't favour him, he wants to slow down even more and have higher bounces?
 
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timnz said:
They aren't going to re-conceive the event. It has now a long tradition of 45 years of being the season end finals. For most of that history it has been rated, because of that, as only a little lower than a slam in value. No reason to change it.

It hasn't always been indoor. There were 3 instances when it was outdoor. Once on grass at Koyoong in the 70's and twice in Houston on outdoor hard last decade.
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5 WTF vs 4 of Feds at Indoor, would you still put Fed ahead of Novak on Indoor hard?
 
timnz said:
They aren't going to re-conceive the event. It has now a long tradition of 45 years of being the season end finals. For most of that history it has been rated, because of that, as only a little lower than a slam in value. No reason to change it.

It hasn't always been indoor. There were 3 instances when it was outdoor. Once on grass at Koyoong in the 70's and twice in Houston on outdoor hard last decade.
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Sure, and I am fine with the way it is as long as we change the way it is perceived and don't consider it as as an ultimate season ending event and rather just an end to the indoor hardcourt season, which happens to be at the end of the year. I just think the way people talk about this event/the ATP markets is slightly disingenuous. Really, you would think an event that is at the end of the year that features only the top 8 players would be representative of the tour, but instead it is only representative of a court condition that is not seen at any of the 4 biggest events on tour (slow, low-bouncing, indoor hardcourt) or for the vast majority of the season. I realize that this is the way it has been for years, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. Maybe we can just call it the ATP Indoor Championships or something, and perhaps lower the point value. I will probably get a lot of hate for this, but that is my honest opinion.
 
I can't believe Nadal is still beating this drum. Toni mentioned this same thing back in '09 and thereafter.

Only Nadal would expect an indoor tournament played in November to be played on clay. It's a ludicrous suggestion and beyond self serving.
 
It should be on carpet with a m1000 and a couple of other carpet events as a lead up,how would the golden bull like that?Also it shouldn't have the same surface or conditions as any of the slams and being only the top 8 players for the year competing makes it harder to win than a slam.NEXT BEST THING TO THE 4 MAJORS!
 
President said:
Sure, and I am fine with the way it is as long as we change the way it is perceived and don't consider it as as an ultimate season ending event and rather just an end to the indoor hardcourt season, which happens to be at the end of the year. I just think the way people talk about this event/the ATP markets is slightly disingenuous. Really, you would think an event that is at the end of the year that features only the top 8 players would be representative of the tour, but instead it is only representative of a court condition that is not seen at any of the 4 biggest events on tour (slow, low-bouncing, indoor hardcourt) or for the vast majority of the season. I realize that this is the way it has been for years, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. Maybe we can just call it the ATP Indoor Championships or something, and perhaps lower the point value. I will probably get a lot of hate for this, but that is my honest opinion.
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You're not alone in your thinking. The tournament is unique in its setup unlike any other tournament. To win a tournament among just the top 8 is a great accomplisment, but because it's only offered in one condition, obviously some will have the advantage over others every time. Other events give you the chance to get into the tournament and adjust to conditions which don't favor your game.

It would make more sense for it to include the top 8 indoor players. In 2012, for instance, Nadal earned a birth into the WTFs due to his success in the first half of the year only on slow outdoor hard courts and clay. Wimbledon was his last tournament of the year, yet he was invited to the top indoor tournament of the year.
 
President said:
Sure, and I am fine with the way it is as long as we change the way it is perceived and don't consider it as as an ultimate season ending event and rather just an end to the indoor hardcourt season, which happens to be at the end of the year. I just think the way people talk about this event/the ATP markets is slightly disingenuous. Really, you would think an event that is at the end of the year that features only the top 8 players would be representative of the tour, but instead it is only representative of a court condition that is not seen at any of the 4 biggest events on tour (slow, low-bouncing, indoor hardcourt) or for the vast majority of the season. I realize that this is the way it has been for years, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. Maybe we can just call it the ATP Indoor Championships or something, and perhaps lower the point value. I will probably get a lot of hate for this, but that is my honest opinion.
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This. I didn't want to put in the effort of writing it down for people who don't even want to understand his point of view.

This is essentially what Rafa has been trying to say. WTF or the YEC is considered to be the year ending tournament where Top 8 players of the year are shortlisted, which includes tournaments played on ALL 3 HC, Clay and Grass. So when you're including the performance on all the surfaces for being worthy of selection, then it's only fair that the WTF be played on all of those surfaces, rotating it each year/every couple of years. If you want to host it ONLY on Indoor Hards, then consider it as another HC tourney.
It's like saying that the top students who majored in Biology, Chemistry and Physics in College are selected for a final exam, but that exam will only have questions on Chemistry. How is it fair to the other students? Just an example.

Now before people say blah blah why not RG on Grass etc., that's because it is not a season capping tournament.

All that being said, I do think that Nadal is a bit of whiner though. :D
 
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President said:
Sure, and I am fine with the way it is as long as we change the way it is perceived and don't consider it as as an ultimate season ending event and rather just an end to the indoor hardcourt season, which happens to be at the end of the year. I just think the way people talk about this event/the ATP markets is slightly disingenuous. Really, you would think an event that is at the end of the year that features only the top 8 players would be representative of the tour, but instead it is only representative of a court condition that is not seen at any of the 4 biggest events on tour (slow, low-bouncing, indoor hardcourt) or for the vast majority of the season. I realize that this is the way it has been for years, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. Maybe we can just call it the ATP Indoor Championships or something, and perhaps lower the point value. I will probably get a lot of hate for this, but that is my honest opinion.
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Why change the way it is perceived? I think it is great that they have the best 8 players in the world fighting out for the top prize outside of the slams. They all earned getting a place - so having 8 is great.

Save us from another high bouncing, slow surface. It is really sad that tennis has taken the bad direction of becoming so very slow. Hence, the number 5 tournament of the year should be on a faster surface (especially since you have 2 very slow slams - AO and FO, and 2 medium paced slams - Wimbledon and US Open).
 
Pretty sure he's been saying this or some variation of it for years now though. This thread is not really necessary. Then again, look at the OP.
 
drm025 said:
You're not alone in your thinking. The tournament is unique in its setup unlike any other tournament. To win a tournament among just the top 8 is a great accomplisment, but because it's only offered in one condition, obviously some will have the advantage over others every time. Other events give you the chance to get into the tournament and adjust to conditions which don't favor your game.

It would make more sense for it to include the top 8 indoor players. In 2012, for instance, Nadal earned a birth into the WTFs due to his success in the first half of the year only on slow outdoor hard courts and clay. Wimbledon was his last tournament of the year, yet he was invited to the top indoor tournament of the year.
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Exactly this. I know it will probably never happen, but if they really want to be intellectually honest and at the same time keep the event the way it is (indoor hardcourt extravaganza), it should be the best 8 players of the indoor hardcourt season IMO. But ideally for me, it would rotate between different surfaces, perhaps within the same tournament (which I realize would be incredibly difficult and probably unrealistic). That would really drive home the "top 8 players of the entire year" theme, to me. Just my opinion.
 
LazyNinja19 said:
This. I didn't want to put in the effort of writing it down for people who don't even want to understand his point of view.

This is essentially what Rafa has been trying to say. WTF or the YEC is considered to be the year ending tournament where Top 8 players of the year are shortlisted, which includes tournaments played on ALL 3 HC, Clay and Grass. So when you're including the performance on all the surfaces for being worthy of selection, then it's only fair that the WTF be played on all of those surfaces, rotating it each year/every couple of years. If you want to host it ONLY on Indoor Hards, then consider it as another HC tourney.
It's like saying that the top students who majored in Biology, Chemistry and Physics in College are selected for a final exam, and that exam contains only the questions on Chemistry. How is it fair to the other students? Just an example.

Now before people say blah blah why not RG on Grass etc., that's because players for RG aren't shortlisted. It is not a year capping tournament.
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This is it......the season is played on different surfaces through the year so if you make it into the top 8 you must have to be able to adapt to different conditions.What you're saying is ...lets give everyone a go on their favourite surface!nadal doesnt have to play there .
 
timnz said:
Why change the way it is perceived? I think it is great that they have the best 8 players in the world fighting out for the top prize outside of the slams. They all earned getting a place - so having 8 is great.

Save us from another high bouncing, slow surface. It is really sad that tennis has taken the bad direction of becoming so very slow. Hence, the number 5 tournament of the year should be on a faster surface (especially since you have 2 very slow slams - AO and FO, and 2 medium paced slams - Wimbledon and US Open).
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My point is that they make it seem (when they are promoting it) like it is the ultimate ending event of the season that has the best players of the season. The problem is that the season is played out across vastly different conditions, and the vast majority of points are accrued from events that are completely different from the conditions at the WTF. The players at the WTF are almost certainly not the top 8 players in the specific conditions that are represented at the World Tour Finals.
 
LETitBE said:
This is it......the season is played on different surfaces through the year so if you make it into the top 8 you must have to be able to adapt to different conditions.What you're saying is ...lets give everyone a go on their favourite surface!nadal doesnt have to play there .
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Student 1 majored in Biology. He did take Physics and Chemistry too.

Student 2 majored in Chemistry. He did take Biology and Physics too.

Student 3 majored in Physics. He did take Biology and Chemistry too.

They're the toppers of their respective Majors, and are shortlisted for another final exam. The final exam has questions only on Chemistry. It is fair. They studied all the subjects throughout the year.

/FailLogic

Let. It. Be.
 
Towser83 said:
This is like saying it's not fair RG is always on clay. Neither of the HC slams are indoors so makes sense to have next biggest event indoors. Would Nadal have prefered the AO had been indoors all these years? If there was an idoor hard slam he might still be searching for the career slam (or maybe he'd have een more motivated, who knows) It's weird because Nadal is the guy who defied people saying he'd never win on grass and then HC and then faster HC, so I always thought he would just find a way to win at the WTF on indoor hard anyway. But It does prove he wants to win it and it's not a meaningless exhibition.
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The difference between WTFs and RG is that Federer could win RG playing only one top 8 player in the semis (Del potro) who didn't beat any top 8 players to get there and hasn't repeated that performance since. And, had it been BO3, he may have lost to Del Potro, anyway.
 
President said:
My point is that they make it seem (when they are promoting it) like it is the ultimate ending event of the season that has the best players of the season. The problem is that the season is played out across vastly different conditions, and the vast majority of points are accrued from events that are completely different from the conditions at the WTF. The players at the WTF are almost certainly not the top 8 players in the specific conditions that are represented at the World Tour Finals.
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Hardly matters! There should be a premier tournament for indoors. Then make WTS outdoor and make US Open or Aus open indoor. Indoor Tennis needs its space.

You need to keep one thing in perspective. It used to be held on carpets. Can't we go back to the lightning quick carpet courts? Carpet indoor sounds right
 
Feather said:
Hardly matters! There should be a premier tournament for indoors. Then make WTS outdoor and make US Open or Aus open indoor. Indoor Tennis needs its space.

You need to keep one thing in perspective. It used to be held on carpets. Can't we go back to the lightning quick carpet courts? Carpet indoor sounds right
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Sure, I agree with what you have said. Indoor tournaments can have a finishing event. My whole point was with the way the ATP promotes this event as the "season ending championships", aka the ultimate finishing tournament of the top players of the season. You would think it is representative of the whole season, but instead it only reflects the conditions of the last 1.5 months. IMO, they should change their promotion tactics and only include the top 8 players of the indoor season rather than the whole season. Gaston Gaudio, for example, was totally embarrassed in 2005 when he was considered one of the "top 8 players", but had to play in conditions completely counter to his game. The way it is now, it should be called the "ATP Indoor Championships", or something like that, rather than the World Tour Finals. Let's not pretend it represents the best player of the season. It's either that, or have a rotating surface (which most people seem to hate) for this event.
 
President said:
My point is that they make it seem (when they are promoting it) like it is the ultimate ending event of the season that has the best players of the season. The problem is that the season is played out across vastly different conditions, and the vast majority of points are accrued from events that are completely different from the conditions at the WTF. The players at the WTF are almost certainly not the top 8 players in the specific conditions that are represented at the World Tour Finals.
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What you are saying is reasonable, given today's situation. In the 70s and 80s indoor was a huge part of the calendar - so the top players didn't mind playing it. I think the answer more lies in reducing slow hard outdoor court tournaments and having more faster indoor tournaments so that the Wtf is more representative of what the players are playing.
 
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President said:
Sure, I agree with what you have said. Indoor tournaments can have a finishing event. My whole point was with the way the ATP promotes this event as the "season ending championships", aka the ultimate finishing tournament of the top players of the season. You would think it is representative of the whole season, but instead it only reflects the conditions of the last 1.5 months. IMO, they should change their promotion tactics and only include the top 8 players of the indoor season rather than the whole season. Gaston Gaudio, for example, was totally embarrassed in 2005 when he was considered one of the "top 8 players", but had to play in conditions completely counter to his game. The way it is now, it should be called the "ATP Indoor Championships", or something like that, rather than the World Tour Finals. Let's not pretend it represents the best player of the season.
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The points argument is nonsense. Take that out. After AO, before RG, before the three clay masters we have the masters Miami and IW. using your logic it doesn't mean any sense. Your point can be argued anywhere. Assume there is a clay courter who is exceptionaly good and sucks totally on grass. He sweep clay masters and RG, could be seeded second for Wimbledon and could go out in first round.

The rolling one year points system is there for all tournaments, Wimbledon does a minor tweaking. It's the same for WTF also. This became ONLY a issue in these forums coz Nadal didn't win
 
Feather said:
The points argument is nonsense. Take that out. After AO, before RG, before the three clay masters we have the masters Miami and IW. using your logic it doesn't mean any sense. Your point can be argued anywhere. Assume there is a clay courter who is exceptionaly good and sucks totally on grass. He sweep clay masters and RG, could be seeded second for Wimbledon and could go out in first round.

The rolling one year points system is there for all tournaments, Wimbledon does a minor tweaking. It's the same for WTF also. This became ONLY a issue in these forums coz Nadal didn't win
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I don't think the points argument is nonsense, because the way the World Tour Finals are promoted is that they feature the top 8 players of the season in an epic showdown. Only the top 8 players, very different from the majors; it's not like the majors exclude players apart from those below 120 or something. I just always felt like the event didn't make sense to me, and this was since the early 2000's, nothing to do with Rafael Nadal. It is explicitly meant to be the season ending event that features the top 8 players, but is played in a condition that is completely unrepresentative of probably 85%+ of the points that make up the rankings of the top 8 guys. I just think that in order to fulfill its "goal" (ultimate ending tournament of the 8 best players of the whole season), it should rotate surfaces. Otherwise, we should feature only the top indoor players, which would be fine as well, since indoor tournaments are indeed a bit underrepresented.
 
President said:
I don't think the points argument is nonsense, because the way the World Tour Finals are promoted is that they feature the top 8 players of the season in an epic showdown. Only the top 8 players, very different from the majors; it's not like the majors exclude players apart from those below 120 or something. I just always felt like the event didn't make sense to me, and this was since the early 2000's, nothing to do with Rafael Nadal. It is explicitly meant to be the season ending event that features the top 8 players, but is played in a condition that is completely unrepresentative of probably 85%+ of the points that make up the rankings of the top 8 guys. I just think that in order to fulfill its "goal" (ultimate ending tournament of the 8 best players of the whole season), it should rotate surfaces. Otherwise, we should feature only the top indoor players, which would be fine as well, since indoor tournaments are indeed a bit underrepresented.
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Do you really mean this? So you want WTF to do something no other tournament does? Makes sense.

So RG should take top clay court players. Wimbledon top grass players, like that?

All tournaments in ATP follow rankings. So does WTF
 
Feather said:
Do you really mean this? So you want WTF to do something no other tournament does? Makes sense.

So RG should take top clay court players. Wimbledon top grass players, like that?

All tournaments in ATP follow rankings. So does WTF
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No, but the WTF has always been a unique tournament. Its unique format has just never made sense to me due to the nature of the surface they choose to use and the way they market/promote it as the "season ending championship". To me, that moniker suggests a "general" type of feel, like it is at least somewhat representative of the season as a whole, which it obviously isn't in it's present (and historic) incarnation. RG never claimed to a be a tournament made up of only the top claycourters, and Wimbledon was never a tournament that only hosted the top grass court players. The WTF always claimed to have the best 8 players of the season though (that is, and has always been, its major selling point, unlike the majors), yet they play in conditions that are not indicative in the slightest of the conditions that the players earned their top 8 status in. That is basically my whole point; the WTF chose to be unique and is supposed to have the 8 best players in the world, so it seems silly to compare it to tournaments like RG and the USO which are conventional tournaments.

This is just my personal opinion, I really don't have an agenda with respect to a specific player or players. I have always felt this way, the way they market/sell/promote/hype the tournament makes little sense to me.
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Student 1 majored in Biology. He did take Physics and Chemistry too.

Student 2 majored in Chemistry. He did take Biology and Physics too.

Student 3 majored in Physics. He did take Biology and Chemistry too.

They're the toppers of their respective Majors, and are shortlisted for another final exam. The final exam has questions only on Chemistry. It is fair. They studied all the subjects throughout the year.

/FailLogic

Let. It. Be.
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Lol so what's the alternative? Every day the organisers change the court from grass to clay to hard? Seems a bit impossible! Or have several courts and big stadiums? Once clay, one hard, one grass? It's ridiculous and expensive!
I can't believe Nadal dared to complain. We had 0 grass masters in 2015 compared to 3 for clay. There was 22 clay tournaments in 2015 compared to 7 grass. 22 to 7. Nadal is such a sook, he should go get "injured" again and vanish for 6 months. He couldn't even win one of the multiple clay masters this year. #weak.
 
It is a valid point that indoor being a small part of the season, having the year ending championships on indoor doesn't make sense. The solution, though, is to have more indoor tournaments again rather than diminish its importance even more by downgrading the WTF to just an indoor championship. I am open to the idea of doing away with a WTF altogether and capping the indoor swing with a fifth slam indoors, maybe in China. Shanghai used to host the WTF for a few years anyway. But relegating it to a Masters status is not the way to go imo. We need to preserve what little diversity is left in tennis.
 
President said:
No, but the WTF has always been a unique tournament. Its unique format has just never made sense to me due to the nature of the surface they choose to use and the way they market/promote it as the "season ending championship". To me, that moniker suggests a "general" type of feel, like it is at least somewhat representative of the season as a whole, which it obviously isn't in it's present (and historic) incarnation. RG never claimed to a be a tournament made up of only the top claycourters, and Wimbledon was never a tournament that only hosted the top grass court players. The WTF always claimed to have the best 8 players of the season though (that is, and has always been, its major selling point, unlike the majors), yet they play in conditions that are not indicative in the slightest of the conditions that the players earned their top 8 status in. That is basically my whole point; the WTF chose to be unique and is supposed to have the 8 best players in the world, so it seems silly to compare it to tournaments like RG and the USO which are conventional tournaments.

This is just my personal opinion, I really don't have an agenda with respect to a specific player or players. I have always felt this way, the way they market/sell/promote/hype the tournament makes little sense to me.
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I understand your point but let me just ask. Are you saying to cut the entire tournament out if it's not comparable to the slams and that? How does one decide the surface. Say it's Fed v Nadal. Fed wants grass, Nadal wants clay. How do you choose? Or are you just saying scrap the entire YEC as it's not indicative of who was the best in the year? (which I do understand)
 
Aussie Darcy said:
I understand your point but let me just ask. Are you saying to cut the entire tournament out if it's not comparable to the slams and that? How does one decide the surface. Say it's Fed v Nadal. Fed wants grass, Nadal wants clay. How do you choose? Or are you just saying scrap the entire YEC as it's not indicative of who was the best in the year? (which I do understand)
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I think it should either just be billed as the "ATP Indoor Championships" and have the best 8 indoor players, or they should have a rotating surface (either every year or within each tournament, although I understand the latter would probably be very impractical). I think it is a great idea, but the way it is implemented is not really representative of what it is meant to be: a showdown of the top 8 players of the season (as I understand the intent). I am not infallible, of course and could very well be wrong.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
I understand your point but let me just ask. Are you saying to cut the entire tournament out if it's not comparable to the slams and that? How does one decide the surface. Say it's Fed v Nadal. Fed wants grass, Nadal wants clay. How do you choose? Or are you just saying scrap the entire YEC as it's not indicative of who was the best in the year? (which I do understand)
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Federer would love to play nadal on carpet! not grass or anything else,carpet indoor and let nadal feel the pain!
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Student 1 majored in Biology. He did take Physics and Chemistry too.

Student 2 majored in Chemistry. He did take Biology and Physics too.

Student 3 majored in Physics. He did take Biology and Chemistry too.

They're the toppers of their respective Majors, and are shortlisted for another final exam. The final exam has questions only on Chemistry. It is fair. They studied all the subjects throughout the year.

/FailLogic

Let. It. Be.
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Ok...lets make it on clay with the net 6 inches higher than normal and outdoors but only in 30 degree heat in the shade with lively balls and 3 minutes between points.......all players hit a ball over the net with a tennis raquet,varied conditions sort out the men from the boys.nadal majors in clay and thats HIS problem.
 
First and foremost can we please have a bit of context around this statement from Rafa....every chance reporter has asked him whether he would like to see WTF played on Clay...if so then what on earth would you expect him to say?

Secondly I agree with some other posters in that the WTF does have a certain feel to it where it's just the end of the Indoor Hardcourt season as opposed to a true reflection and celebration of the entire season. I know it's tough due to the time of year and anything in Northern Hemisphere really having to be played indoors but it would be good to see WTF played on alternative surfaces which may play to different players strengths.
 
Dave1982 said:
First and foremost can we please have a bit of context around this statement from Rafa....every chance reporter has asked him whether he would like to see WTF played on Clay...if so then what on earth would you expect him to say?

Secondly I agree with some other posters in that the WTF does have a certain feel to it where it's just the end of the Indoor Hardcourt season as opposed to a true reflection and celebration of the entire season. I know it's tough due to the time of year and anything in Northern Hemisphere really having to be played indoors but it would be good to see WTF played on alternative surfaces which may play to different players strengths.
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Why not play all the slams on alternative surfaces......this tourny is #5 in the season as far as prestige goes and its been slowed and tampered with enough as it is!
 
Dave1982 said:
First and foremost can we please have a bit of context around this statement from Rafa....every chance reporter has asked him whether he would like to see WTF played on Clay...if so then what on earth would you expect him to say?

Secondly I agree with some other posters in that the WTF does have a certain feel to it where it's just the end of the Indoor Hardcourt season as opposed to a true reflection and celebration of the entire season. I know it's tough due to the time of year and anything in Northern Hemisphere really having to be played indoors but it would be good to see WTF played on alternative surfaces which may play to different players strengths.
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As long as the alternative surfaces have fast surfaces included - and often. Far too much slow court tennis these days.
 
President said:
Sure, and I am fine with the way it is as long as we change the way it is perceived and don't consider it as as an ultimate season ending event and rather just an end to the indoor hardcourt season, which happens to be at the end of the year. I just think the way people talk about this event/the ATP markets is slightly disingenuous. Really, you would think an event that is at the end of the year that features only the top 8 players would be representative of the tour, but instead it is only representative of a court condition that is not seen at any of the 4 biggest events on tour (slow, low-bouncing, indoor hardcourt) or for the vast majority of the season. I realize that this is the way it has been for years, but that doesn't mean it can't be better. Maybe we can just call it the ATP Indoor Championships or something, and perhaps lower the point value. I will probably get a lot of hate for this, but that is my honest opinion.
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That is how they named these kinds of tourneys in the old days. I agree with you and I think it makes a lot of sense. My big problem with the WTF is that it is played on a surface that is not played on any of the four slams. IMHO, that is a huge foul.
 
It's on HC which is the most representative surface for the year. On clay would be considerably less representative and on grass much less so still.

What isn't really represented is fast HC, and keeping it generally indoors as a distinguishing feature is also ideal.

Make Paris legitimately fast and make the YEC fast and brand it specifically with that in mind. It would not be the culmination of the year but just as an extra defining peak of the year that happens to take place at the end of the year in the guise of a 5th Major.

Give it a 128 draw. Make it the 5th Major. Done. Oh, and the venue can rotate every year.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
It's on HC which is the most representative surface for the year. On clay would be considerably less representative and on grass much less so still.

What isn't really represented is fast HC, and keeping it generally indoors as a distinguishing feature is also ideal.

Make Paris legitimately fast and make the YEC fast and brand it specifically with that in mind, not as the culmination of the year but just as an extra defining peak of the year that happens to take place at the end of the year.

Give it a 128 draw. Make it the 5th Major. Done.
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I would be totally fine with this. What I do have a problem with is the notion that this is the "final event of the year that crowns the best player of the year from the elite field of the top 8 players", which, IMO, many people (including the ATP) have hyped it up as. It is an event in very specific conditions that is completely unlike the vast majority of the season (and to be honest not even really representative of the hardcourts that make up the majority of the tour, the USO in prior years has hardly been close at all to the WTF, although this year they seem to have made it slightly higher bouncing), and as a result is not some kind of special season ending event. It can be the culmination of the indoor season just like the US Open is the culmination of the fast outdoor HC season or RG is the finishing event of the clay court season. That would be totally fine. Let's just not call it the "Masters Cup" or the "World Tour Finals", with the implication (that many people do latch on to) that it is representative of the rest of the tour and some kind of defining ultimate event.
 
Yeah but it is the World Tour Finals. It is like a treat for the special consistent and excellent few who were able to finish the year in the top 8. That is the unique selling point of the event regardless of the surface used. Typically, the finish top 8 means the player has to have been fairly consistent and good across all conditions, and indeed when we look at those who have qualified, they are generally rather useful on all surfaces. The closest to fair is that the tournament takes place on a neutral-ish outdoor HC. According to the logic in this thread, it should never take place on grass.

Frankly, that's dull.

You know what I want?

Conditions alien to everybody.

I want the top 8 players to have to solve totally alien conditions and watch them deal with that challenge. Make the event really unique.

Otherwise, give it a Slam draw and just hold it consistently indoors on fast HC and make it a 5th Major. I still like the idea that this Major would rotate venues and be used as a key way to market tennis.

Also, nobody really sees it as the defining ultimate event, in that nobody places the YEC over a Slam.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
Yeah but it is the World Tour Finals. It is like a treat for the special consistent and excellent few who were able to finish the year in the top 8. That is the unique selling point of the event regardless of the surface used. Typically, the finish top 8 means the player has to have been fairly consistent and good across all conditions, and indeed when we look at those who have qualified, they are generally rather useful on all surfaces. The closest to fair is that the tournament takes place on a neutral-ish outdoor HC. According to the logic in this thread, it should never take place on grass.

Frankly, that's dull.

You know what I want?

Conditions alien to everybody.

I want the top 8 players to have to solve totally alien conditions and watch them deal with that challenge. Make the event really unique.

Otherwise, give it a Slam draw and just hold it consistently indoors on fast HC and make it a 5th Major. I still like the idea that this Major would rotate venues and be used as a key way to market tennis.

Also, nobody really sees it as the defining ultimate event, in that nobody places the YEC over a Slam.
Click to expand...

Both of your ideas are good. For the "5th major" idea, I think we should include all players, similar to a normal slam draw, like you had suggested earlier. The alien conditions idea is very cool, as long as it is truly varied. As I have reiterated too many times in this thread, I have a problem with the current name combined with the current format. You never felt like this tournament had the implication that it was the season finishing event, and that it is supposed to be representative of the season (which would make sense, given that it includes the top 8 players of the entire season, not just the specific slow low-bouncing indoor conditions it is held in)? I think many people misinterpret this event in that light, and I think it wouldn't hurt to change that perception. Maybe I am just out of touch, but I really think that if it stays the way it is, we should at least change the name to the "ATP Indoor Championships", and (IMO) change the qualifications to entry.
 
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