Nadal shouldn't be whining about not having clay courts at the ATP World Tour Finals

I just like "YEC". That's what it is.. it is the Year-Ending Championship. It does what it says on the tin and is a lot less pretentious than the "World Tour Finals". I like The Masters because it is a tournament based on merit regarding the 8 best players on tour.. the masters of the tour. I don't think it has to be representative of the season just because it's the final event of the season (well Davis Cup is actually the final event). It's a celebration of the very best players and we get to see only the best play the best play the best.. repeatedly. Now, it's likely that more than 50% of those qualified will tend to prefer HC to clay or grass and then maybe 30-40% prefer clay and then the smallest percentage might prefer grass, so a neutral outdoor HC would be the most "fair" surface. The way to eliminate this bias is to give these premier players of the tour a curve ball. What that curve ball should be, I don't know, but nobody makes it to the YEC's by virtue of their "fast HC" accomplishments, so a basic solution would be to host it in fast (very fast) HC conditions and to keep it indoors. Paris can stay slow, and the YEC is this unique tournament that presents challenges to all 8 players that they simply haven't dealt with for the rest of the year, and it becomes a battle of wits and adaptation.

This is novel, but probably wouldn't be popular with the players. So, what's the next best solution? Well, to have it on the most played on surface, which generally speaking is outdoor HC.. which is fine but dull, as we already have 2 Slams held in such conditions and this YEC is supposed to be a unique celebration and get together of the elite players throughout the year. It's an honour to qualify for the event and it is something that these pros aim for.
 
Bring a new surface to the YEC's.. maybe har-tru.

http://hartru.com/

It's like clay+hard and an ideal compromise and a ******* child of almost all of what is represented throughout the rest of the year.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
Bring a new surface to the YEC's.. maybe har-tru.

http://hartru.com/

It's like clay+hard and an ideal compromise and a ******* child of almost all of what is represented throughout the rest of the year.
Click to expand...

It is like a higher bouncing slow hard court, in my experience. Not sure if it is particularly representative, guys like Nadal and Wawrinka would probably be in heaven as it is closer to red clay than any type of hard court IMO. Great surface though, and I would love to see it at more bigger events. I like your idea of a secret rotating surface for the WTF that is used to promote the tour around the world, however unfeasible it may be.
 
President said:
It is like a higher bouncing slow hard court, in my experience. Not sure if it is particularly representative, guys like Nadal and Wawrinka would probably be in heaven as it is closer to red clay than any type of hard court IMO. Great surface though, and I would love to see it at more bigger events. I like your idea of a secret rotating surface for the WTF that is used to promote the tour around the world, however unfeasible it may be.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's what I was kinda thinking but I wonder if they have a fast version of this court that still allows for the clay style movement - this would be quite unique but allow for the typical strengths of those who love clay and HC conditions to come through.
 
For everyone comparing this to RG always being on clay, NEWSFLASH... RG like tournament is on grass, it is called wimbledon. It is also on hard, it is called US open and Australian open. Gosh, some people are so thick.

Great posts in this thread @President
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
Yeah that's what I was kinda thinking but I wonder if they have a fast version of this court that still allows for the clay style movement - this would be quite unique but allow for the typical strengths of those who love clay and HC conditions to come through.
Click to expand...

That would be interesting indeed, I do think that medium-fast and high bouncing conditions offer the best general quality of play (to my eye, at least). Low bouncing and slow is the worst, it is hard to really crush anything because of the low bounce, and the slow speed makes it impossible to dictate play with the medium paced shots you are forced to produce because of the bounce. It just becomes a battle of depth, which a guy like Djokovic excels at. It takes a lot of skill for sure, but is not particularly aesthetically pleasing IMO.
 
President said:
Both of your ideas are good. For the "5th major" idea, I think we should include all players, similar to a normal slam draw, like you had suggested earlier. The alien conditions idea is very cool, as long as it is truly varied. As I have reiterated too many times in this thread, I have a problem with the current name combined with the current format. You never felt like this tournament had the implication that it was the season finishing event, and that it is supposed to be representative of the season (which would make sense, given that it includes the top 8 players of the entire season, not just the specific slow low-bouncing indoor conditions it is held in)? I think many people misinterpret this event in that light, and I think it wouldn't hurt to change that perception. Maybe I am just out of touch, but I really think that if it stays the way it is, we should at least change the name to the "ATP Indoor Championships", and (IMO) change the qualifications to entry.
Click to expand...
OK.. so lets play the French open with only the top 128 clay court players,same for Wimbly and AO and US.....does that make any sense?
 
wow, what a writer with his head in the sand...does he have any idea that over time, over Nadal's career, and in tennis history it's hardcourts that have been overemphasized?..why would he want to come across this stupid?

and you can blame Wimbledon for not having a grass court Masters
 
marc45 said:
wow, what a writer with his head in the sand...does he have any idea that over time, over Nadal's career, and in tennis history it's hardcourts that have been overemphasized?..why would he want to come across this stupid?

and you can blame Wimbledon for not having a grass court Masters
Click to expand...

I also happen to think all his years in Oz would have benefited him if they stayed with Rebound Ace, he got nailed there
 
Towser83 said:
This is like saying it's not fair RG is always on clay. Neither of the HC slams are indoors so makes sense to have next biggest event indoors. Would Nadal have prefered the AO had been indoors all these years? If there was an idoor hard slam he might still be searching for the career slam (or maybe he'd have een more motivated, who knows) It's weird because Nadal is the guy who defied people saying he'd never win on grass and then HC and then faster HC, so I always thought he would just find a way to win at the WTF on indoor hard anyway. But It does prove he wants to win it and it's not a meaningless exhibition.
Click to expand...

again, I'm guessing he'd prefer Oz stayed on the quicker high-bouncing Rebound Ace
 
Feather said:
Hardly matters! There should be a premier tournament for indoors. Then make WTS outdoor and make US Open or Aus open indoor. Indoor Tennis needs its space.

You need to keep one thing in perspective. It used to be held on carpets. Can't we go back to the lightning quick carpet courts? Carpet indoor sounds right
Click to expand...

another failure by the writer of the article...doesn't seem to get that's another point in the hardcourts have been over-emphasised argument, not clay
 
Aussie Darcy said:
Lol so what's the alternative? Every day the organisers change the court from grass to clay to hard? Seems a bit impossible! Or have several courts and big stadiums? Once clay, one hard, one grass? It's ridiculous and expensive!
I can't believe Nadal dared to complain. We had 0 grass masters in 2015 compared to 3 for clay. There was 22 clay tournaments in 2015 compared to 7 grass. 22 to 7. Nadal is such a sook, he should go get "injured" again and vanish for 6 months. He couldn't even win one of the multiple clay masters this year. #weak.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing Nadal would be quite happy with a rotation of clay, grass, and hard every three years...again, anybody wanting more grass court tennis as a big event, talk to Wimbledon...they don't want that
 
TMF said:
I believe that it’s not fair that a player like me really never played on a surface that was a little bit more favourable.
Click to expand...
I cannot believe Usain Bolt has never ever been given to run in a downhill lane! But than again Matt Damon liked ABBA on Mars.
 
Think its ok w indoors really since its so few of them(though i hate indoors, but I'm nice to indoors lovers)

That said I wish they rather moved it around to places w not big tournaments like south america, south africa, India too to promote the sport.
 
Towser83 said:
This is like saying it's not fair RG is always on clay. Neither of the HC slams are indoors so makes sense to have next biggest event indoors. Would Nadal have prefered the AO had been indoors all these years? If there was an idoor hard slam he might still be searching for the career slam (or maybe he'd have een more motivated, who knows) It's weird because Nadal is the guy who defied people saying he'd never win on grass and then HC and then faster HC, so I always thought he would just find a way to win at the WTF on indoor hard anyway. But It does prove he wants to win it and it's not a meaningless exhibition.
Click to expand...
he said nothing about it being indoors! learn to comprehend...
 
jimmy0slams said:
A bit rich coming from Nadal, considering the changing of balls and slowing down of Wimby, USO, and Aus is the only reason he ever won any of them.
Click to expand...
Federer won all his slams during this supposed 'slowing down' as well!

don't be foolish...
 
Alright, change it to grass then.

3004407_o.gif
 
I think this question is asked a lot a lot.

Grass still today favors smaller rallies, vollies and service holds. Wimbledon is not USOpen even when USOpen is faster court. You see so many tiebreaks at Wimbledon, proving its easier to hold serve than on faster hard courts. Its hard to move quick, change direction while running on grass.

Clay still today favors longer rallies, less vollies and service breaks. Roland Garros is not Australian Open even. You see so few tiebreaks at Roland Garros, proving its easier to break serve than on slower hard courts. Its easy to move quick, change direction while running on clay. (I will find data on this and post when I get time).

Hard court are in between and it favors all three kind of wins (So many players have won Wimbledon+USOpen or French+USOpen but so few with both Wimbledon+French). So it makes sense to play best players from all courts at somewhat neutral surface.

Making it outdoors, I am not against at all. Depends on where they will hold it, I am living somewhere where its snowing, can't play outdoor tennis here, maybe some other place its possible.

This is not fast court indoors like Bercy was in 2010 or Basel plays. Its already slowed down enough to not be compared to grass courts. Djokovic and Federer wrecked the tour last year here, unlike Wimbledon where they still had to fight. This is somewhat neutral court. Although, it favors hard court player a bit more, but it is equidistant from grass and clay. I think ATP has done great job.
 
DRII said:
he said nothing about it being indoors! learn to comprehend...
Click to expand...

He's said it's not fair it's always on the same surface... which is indoor hard.

Then he said it could be on clay (because we know he doesn't want it on grass)

Not sure what you're getting at here. Fact is he wants it on clay so he can win it.
 
President said:
I do think that if we really want to consider the WTF the crowning event of the season, having it on slow low-bouncing indoor hard every single time is a bit silly. The way it is now (and the way it has pretty much always been), it is basically the final event of the indoor hardcourt season, which is totally fine, but IMO is not really in line with how they market the event as the ultimate clincher to the season. They should either change the format, or not market it the way they do IMO (although I can see why they do, they want to sell as many tickets as possible).
Click to expand...
I agree, the finals should be on carpet....
 
drm025 said:
The difference between WTFs and RG is that Federer could win RG playing only one top 8 player in the semis (Del potro) who didn't beat any top 8 players to get there and hasn't repeated that performance since. And, had it been BO3, he may have lost to Del Potro, anyway.
Click to expand...

So you're saying RG is easier to win the the WTF?
 
Towser83 said:
So you're saying RG is easier to win the the WTF?
Click to expand...
Just saying the draw can "open up" at any event but the WTFs. Aside from withdrawals, you are always playing a top 8 player, a tough ask when it's on your worst surface. Of the top players, Nadal is one of the few who has to deal with this.
 
drm025 said:
Just saying the draw can "open up" at any event but the WTFs. Aside from withdrawals, you are always playing a top 8 player, a tough ask when it's on your worst surface. Of the top players, Nadal is one of the few who has to deal with this.
Click to expand...

Though being best of 3 makes it easier to spring an upset than in a slam. You can also lose a match (or even 2 though that's unlikely) in the group stage which detractors of the event like to point out. For most of the time his biggest threat there was also Federer, a guy he owned overall. Djokovic has been great there recently but Nadal even beat him at the event twice. They're not the obstacle Nadal was at RG, giving Federer one shot to do it.

The fact that it's on indoor hard is unfourtunate for Nadal but had he won it he wouldn't be saying this. It's only because after 10 years it's the only major event that has hasn't won. He's lucky one of the HC slams isn't on indoor hard instead of just the WTF which isn't going to be that big a mark on his career should he never win it.
 
Towser83 said:
Though being best of 3 makes it easier to spring an upset than in a slam. You can also lose a match (or even 2 though that's unlikely) in the group stage which detractors of the event like to point out. For most of the time his biggest threat there was also Federer, a guy he owned overall. Djokovic has been great there recently but Nadal even beat him at the event twice. They're not the obstacle Nadal was at RG, giving Federer one shot to do it.

The fact that it's on indoor hard is unfourtunate for Nadal but had he won it he wouldn't be saying this. It's only because after 10 years it's the only major event that has hasn't won. He's lucky one of the HC slams isn't on indoor hard instead of just the WTF which isn't going to be that big a mark on his career should he never win it.
Click to expand...

With Federer and Djokovic winning 10 of the last 12 WTFs (maybe 11 of the last 13 in a little over a week) then I'd say, yes, they are as big an obstacle as Nadal was at RG. Plus, there are 2 of them and only one Nadal. His best 2 showings at the WTFs (2010 and 2013) he only lost to Federer or Djokovic. In 2006 and 2007, he was eliminated by Fed in the semis. So, 4 of the 6 times he played he was eliminated by Federer or Djokovic, and the other 2 times he took a loss to one of them as well. He most likely will never have the opportunity to win without having to go through either of them. At this point, neither of them have won RG going through him as well.
 
Luckydog said:
London's court has been as slow as clay.Nadal should pay more attention to his preparing the fight,even if it will be a better lose.
Click to expand...

it's slow, but it's low (bounce)....but I agree, at this point it's unlikely to change during his career, so just fight

funny, I keep hearing "grass" come up here, which is code for Fed of course.....folks seem to forget Nadal is a five-time Wimbledon finalist, and twice a champion....if the WTF was on a hard, grass, clay rotation throughout his career he would have been thrilled....the recent losses at Wimbledon somehow seem to dull the senses and makes folks think that a WTF event in 2006 to 2011 on grass would have been hated by Nadal
 
Last edited:
marc45 said:
it's slow, but it's low (bounce)....but I agree, at this point it's unlikely to change during his career, so just fight

funny, I keep hearing "grass" come up here, which is code for Fed of course.....folks seem to forget Nadal is a five-time Wimbledon finalist, and twice a champion....if the WTF was on a hard, grass, clay rotation throughout his career he would have been thrilled....the recent losses at Wimbledon somehow seem to dull the senses that a WTF event in 2006 to 2011 on grass would have been hated by Nadal
Click to expand...
At that time, he could have won anywhere, not just grass. So wouldn't have mattered.
 
Towser83 said:
He's said it's not fair it's always on the same surface... which is indoor hard.

Then he said it could be on clay (because we know he doesn't want it on grass)

Not sure what you're getting at here. Fact is he wants it on clay so he can win it.
Click to expand...
he doesn't care about it being indoors, its the horrificly slow dead bounce surface that Nadal hates.
 
drm025 said:
With Federer and Djokovic winning 10 of the last 12 WTFs (maybe 11 of the last 13 in a little over a week) then I'd say, yes, they are as big an obstacle as Nadal was at RG. Plus, there are 2 of them and only one Nadal. His best 2 showings at the WTFs (2010 and 2013) he only lost to Federer or Djokovic. In 2006 and 2007, he was eliminated by Fed in the semis. So, 4 of the 6 times he played he was eliminated by Federer or Djokovic, and the other 2 times he took a loss to one of them as well. He most likely will never have the opportunity to win without having to go through either of them. At this point, neither of them have won RG going through him as well.
Click to expand...

They have won the lion's share yes, and he will probably have to face one of them becuase if they are 1, 2, or he is 1 or 2 in the world he will have to face one of them in the group stages. But Federer and Djokovic never really peaked at the same time though. Aside from the 2008 win by Djokovic, their titles have never crossed over (Fed winning from 2003 to 2011 and aside from the 2008 win, Djokovic winning from 2012 to 2014) When fed was THE player to beat, Nadal didn't really have to worry abut Djokovic (he beat him in straight sets 2007 and 2010) and he shouldn't really have to worry about Federer in Djokovic's era. He also beat Federer in 2013, so he's beaten both guys and never really had to worry about both at the same time. That's not like Nadal at RG who never lost to Fed or Djokovic until this year. Nadal has beaten pretty much everyone at the WTF. In 2009 neither Fed or Djokovic won but Nadal went down in the group stages losing all 3 matches. One was to Djokovic the others to Davydenko and Soderling. Davydenko seemed to have Nadal's number on hc and of course won the event but then if you say there are 3 players who are a step too far, maybe it's just time to accept your shortcomings at an event. He also skipped 2008 which was an event he a chance at.

Basically Federer's big problem at RG was Nadal. When Nadal had an inevitable off year, he took that chance and won it. sometimes you only get one chance. Moving the WTF to clay because it suits one guy is not fair, anymore than changing RG to hc or grass wouldn't be fair. It is what it is, indoor hard deserves one big event and if you don't end up winning it you just accept that no one wins everything.
 
DRII said:
he doesn't care about it being indoors, its the horrificly slow dead bounce surface that Nadal hates.
Click to expand...
He's dying to see the O2 playing on clay for years!
I know you are dying too since he hasn't won the WTF which is the biggest hole in his resume.
 
DRII said:
he doesn't care about it being indoors, its the horrificly slow dead bounce surface that Nadal hates.
Click to expand...

He never said anything about the bounce.... in your words, learn to comprehend.

He basically wants it on clay, that's what the crux of this is. Complaining about the bounce is just as ridiculous. That's the way that court plays. He may hate it out it's his job to overcome that like he has with every other major event. Maybe other people should complain that RG doesn't play like Madrid, or it's not blue clay. Or someone complaining that the AO bounces too high and US Open is too slow, Wimbledon is too slow. Surfaces and conditions shouldn't change to suit one player. We've already seen surfaces change, Wimbledon getting slower, and the two hc slams as well. Wy can't players just adapt?
 
The Master of the end of the year has been always played on hard court: “The surface can’t be changed because ATP has so decided. I think that it’s not fair to play always on the same surface simply because tennis is also played on court and grass. Probably because of ATP, Rafael has never won, until now, a Master. Which is the problem? The problem is very simple. When you ask the players where they want to play it, most of them, specialist of fast surfaces, answer hard court. This shouldn’t happen, ATP should take a decision apart from the players.”

http://www.**************.org/Editor/Img/toni-nadal-img7413_668.jpg

http://www.**************.org/Toni-...end-of-year-because-of-them-articolo7169.html

:rolleyes:
 
Gorecki said:
It's not fair that FO is always on Clay....
Click to expand...
Every tournament category consists of multiple surfaces, except for the WTFs. The FO has an "equivalent" on grass (wimbledon) and 2 "equivalents" on hard (AO and USO). You can be a grand slam champion without winning the FO. Multiple surfaces are played on for grand slams, masters, 500s, 250s, and Davis Cup. The year-end championships as of late only offers one venue for you to win. It's simply unfortunate for anyone if that venue has conditions which aren't favorable to your game. Not unfortunate that it is harder for them to win the specific tournament in London (every tournament has set conditions which favor some and dont favor others), but unfortunate that it is harder to win a year-end championships.
 
If it was on clay every year though, you can be sure that Nadal wouldn't have said a thing. Unless one year they turned it into blue clay (still clay), then he'd whine hardcore and threaten to not enter the tournament should he qualify next year.
 
drm025 said:
Every tournament category consists of multiple surfaces, except for the WTFs. The FO has an "equivalent" on grass (wimbledon) and 2 "equivalents" on hard (AO and USO). You can be a grand slam champion without winning the FO. Multiple surfaces are played on for grand slams, masters, 500s, 250s, and Davis Cup. The year-end championships as of late only offers one venue for you to win. It's simply unfortunate for anyone if that venue has conditions which aren't favorable to your game. Not unfortunate that it is harder for them to win the specific tournament in London (every tournament has set conditions which favor some and dont favor others), but unfortunate that it is harder to win a year-end championships.
Click to expand...

Extremely big and smelly ox feces... congratilations on missing the point!

you cannot be a FO winner without winning in clay. you cannot be the winner of USO without it being on fast hard... henceforth, you cannot be wtf champion without it being in indoor fast hard. it has been either fast hard or even faster carpet , with one exception of 74 being grass!

END OF DISCUSSION. NADAL SHOULD STOP BEETCHING
 
Gorecki said:
Extremely big and smelly ox feces... congratilations on missing the point!

you cannot be a FO winner without winning in clay. you cannot be the winner of USO without it being on fast hard... henceforth, you cannot be wtf champion without it being in indoor fast hard. it has been either fast hard or even faster carpet , with one exception of 74 being grass!

END OF DISCUSSION. NADAL SHOULD STOP BEETCHING
Click to expand...
And you missed my point because the argument isn't that the venue at London should change surfaces. The WTFs is a moving tournament, the slams are not.... It has been played at many different venues over the years. In that regard, it's much more possible to vary the surface.

As has been said by many, there is no issue keeping it the way it is if it is recognized as an indoor hard championships, cause that's what it is.
 
LazyNinja19 said:
This. I didn't want to put in the effort of writing it down for people who don't even want to understand his point of view.

This is essentially what Rafa has been trying to say. WTF or the YEC is considered to be the year ending tournament where Top 8 players of the year are shortlisted, which includes tournaments played on ALL 3 HC, Clay and Grass. So when you're including the performance on all the surfaces for being worthy of selection, then it's only fair that the WTF be played on all of those surfaces, rotating it each year/every couple of years. If you want to host it ONLY on Indoor Hards, then consider it as another HC tourney.
It's like saying that the top students who majored in Biology, Chemistry and Physics in College are selected for a final exam, but that exam will only have questions on Chemistry. How is it fair to the other students? Just an example.

Now before people say blah blah why not RG on Grass etc., that's because it is not a season capping tournament.

All that being said, I do think that Nadal is a bit of whiner though. :D
Click to expand...
Good post.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

FlashFlare11
ATP World Tour Finals to be Played in London in 2013
Replies
25
Views
5K
dudeski
dudeski
abmk
The lineup at the World Tour finals 2018
Replies
20
Views
937
NEW_BORN
NEW_BORN
D
Nadal avoiding hard courts or Federer avoiding clay?
2 3
Replies
124
Views
8K
Povl Carstensen
P
Tennis sensation
2010 ATP World Tour Finals
Replies
28
Views
3K
Tennis sensation
Tennis sensation
M
Federer and Nadal's records at ATP World Tour Finals
Replies
7
Views
1K
mattennis
M
Back
Top