nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
That's greatest returner
Nadal vs. Alcaraz. Who possesses a superior peak on hard courts?
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metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
Much more embarrassing I'd say. Both due to Alcaraz's reputation vs Berr's at the time(or even ever) and because 2019 Fed >>> 2025 Joe (even off the ground really) and could at least lock up his serve consistently.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Djokovic on hc
Vs Spain 82-18
Vs Russia 35-11
Vs USA 62-10
Vs Czech 42-2
Spain is actually doing very well because these other three nations have brilliant hard court players.
This is simply not true. According to the AO site's own stats, the dominance ratio was almost dead even. Alcaraz was troubling Djokovic's serve as much as Djokovic was troubling Alcaraz's. Novak just won the big points, as he's done many, many times in his career.
Trying to compare it to a young Nadal standing 15 feet behind the baseline and getting walloped by an in-form attacking player is basically meaningless. Alcaraz would not have stood back and rolled every second forehand to the service line for Tsonga to tee off on. Who knows how a hypothetical Alcaraz-Tsonga match would have gone.
inflation_era
Professional
No shot tolerance for Carlitos.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
was just perusing the highlights and about a minute 40 in, Djokovic rolls in a WTA (or Murray) tier second serve halfway inside the service box, and Aalcaraz, bravely standing 5 feet back, hits it back about halfway inside the other service box. Ned could have never.
jl809
Legend
Early prediction here is that Alcaraz never, ever produces anything on HC remotely close to AO 09 or USO 10. They’re in that tier of levels we put in hypotheticals with USO 11 Djoker or USO 06 Fed to generate discussions. Why? Ned was powerful off both wings, fast, deadly on the passing shots, serving big (in the case of 10dal) and most importantly of all, was uber consistent from the back of the court and fit as a fiddle to be able to maintain said consistency over 5 sets without going on benders
Honestly the AO 09 SF and F have these 40 minute highlight reels for a reason and it was Fed, not Ned, who was responsible for the F not being known as the greatest HC match of all time because of his 5th set meltdown
Honestly the AO 09 SF and F have these 40 minute highlight reels for a reason and it was Fed, not Ned, who was responsible for the F not being known as the greatest HC match of all time because of his 5th set meltdown
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Racquet_smash
Professional
Being more aggressive is useless if you miss most of your shots. Alcaraz had trouble keeping in sliced 150kmh 2nd serves.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Most of your shots another hyperbole.
Van Diesel LMAO
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Tsonga played at a much higher level than what either of Djokoraz showed last night, bud.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I say less because he at least won a set. Berrettini took like five games and was tripping and falling all over the court.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Alcaraz has the better approach for grass, i.e. instinctive, aggressive, trying to shorten points. Nadal is a routines man who stays in the present and wants everything in place, which is perfect for clay momentum. Nadal was never the kind of guy to just ditch the routines and go with instinct and wild abandon, but that would have been better for him on grass.
Racquet_smash
Professional
And that's why he should have ditched Toni far earlier in my opinion. He could have won more Wimbledon titles as well as the Finals wirh a much better approach to these kind of courts.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Even then I’d still take RAFA. 06-08 Fred was way better on any surface compared to ancient 23-24 Joker.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Carlos is not special on grass. I think he has just been extremely lucky with WC.
Ned did that literally all the time back in those days lol. If you watched the full match, you'd have seen lovely variation on the second serve from Djokovic and Alcaraz playing around with his return position - he tried standing closer in and Novak punished him with flatter second serves that Carlos often couldn't quite handle. There were a lot of little mini-chess matches like that going on in this match, both players making adjustments. The 08 semi was Nadal not really knowing what to do against a well-playing, big-serving attacker and not ever really doing anything different. I'm not sure how people are coming away with the idea that Carlos's performance was somehow worse.
Alcaraz made the most errors in the first set, which he won. If anything, he should have been more aggressive throughout the match. Didn't quite find the right balance of measured aggression, but it was clearly a more fruitful balance than what Nadal did in that 08 semifinal.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Brainless beat down
I like it. And it was what it really was. Let's not mince words at all out of any obligation to protect big 3 as a whole.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Alcaraz has made more winners than UE today. He is not nadal like grinder.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
I won’t go that far to say he’s not special on grass. He’s shown too much natural ability and he appears to be more comfortable there than he does on faster lower bouncing HC.
That being said he’s definitely lucky in that he never had to go through the grass monster than was peak/prime Fed, or even a prime Murray caliber player at Wimby. 06-07dal beats 23-24 Joker even easier. He was just far more consistent from the back of the court and that’s how you beat Joker.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Good, and even comfortable on grass is not special. I dont think he is better than Rafa with his 2 grass slams, and I did not think Rafa was special on grass. Very good and high quality, but only because of the player, not the surface.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
I mean, he wasnt a top 10 grass player in my opinion, at least not career wise. He had a few really good years. But I guess he was special in 08.
Oleksandr.Usyk
Rookie
Djokovic would do the same to Young Nadal as well today. Even easier. In three straight sets. Easy day in the Office. I take this as a classic TW forum nostalgy meltdown after Djokovic does something special what Federer, Nadal Sampras or Borg could only dream about. It is somehow similar to the Tyson Fury's and AJ's epic meltdowns after they got schooled by Usyk.
Oleksandr.Usyk
Rookie
I admire and pity you in the same time that you have to use this obvious true facts and throw them against the wall. But they will not care. For those people facts are just insults.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
All time? Sure, but at the time he was clearly the 2nd best GC of that era when the field was far deeper on grass.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
You think young Nadal, who was noted for his world class groundstroke consistency and movement, would lose a battle of baseline consistency to Djokovic even more handily than Alcaraz did?
Sometimes I wonder if people here actually know about the sport they’re talking about.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
Crazy how that is not even a thing anymore on grass lol
Oleksandr.Usyk
Rookie
Easy day for Djokovic. I played tennis years, I watch tennis years. Young Nadal 2008 would get exposed as he got several times against lesser opponents than Alcaraz on hard courts. We have to really push down a nostalgy narrative. Rafa Lost to Youzhny, Seppi, Tsonga, Davyděnko, pre glutein diet Djokovič... Simon. 2007 Nadal lost to Mallise, Gucione, Ferrer - that's a madness. I am not sure if you are trolling me right now or no.... But this would be cat Djokovic vs mouse Nadal... Unfortunately with opposite story plot of Tom And Jerry.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
A lot of people only saw the less mobile Nadal of his later years.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
That depends. At the 2005 Canadian Open, Nadal was unplayable, and at 2008 Canadian Open Nadal looked as good as ever. Nadal was vulnerable at the time (2005-2008) to a certain type of opponent on hardcourt, i.e. hard, flat hitters.
Is Djokovic's strength hitting players off the court? At the 2019 Australian Open in the latter stages, yes, but not generally.
Oleksandr.Usyk
Rookie
That's a pity that Rafa was less mobile in 2007 and 2008 against Malisse, Gucione, Seppi, Tsonga, Davyděnko, Ferrer, Simon etc. ... I guess he was after party that he lost those matches. It almost looks that Rafa always in the Wrong time on the wrong place no matter what year of his career ... But never his Mistake that he lost. Lol.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
He wasn't less mobile than when he was in his 30s.
Nadal's peak mobility was 2005. He won 11 tournaments that year, and his year was cut short.
Oleksandr.Usyk
Rookie
By this approach any player in history was unplayable on some tournament...... Nalbandian was the best player of all times in his run particular tournaments etc. ....
Oleksandr.Usyk
Rookie
Of course, that was an irony from me.... Because I feel this cyber bullying of Alcaraz is out of hand - for real. Extremely unfair.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Nadal did it a lot more than Nalbandian.
Nadal's 2005, for an 18-19 year old, is ridiculous. 11 tournaments won before October was over, a 36 match winning streak on clay (and counting), 1 major and 4 masters won.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
Nadal AO 2009, USO 2010 and USO 2013 is something Alcaraz hasn't reached yet on HC.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
We could just as easily say that people are blinded by recency bias when discussing the game today.
messiahrobins
Legend
True but alcaraz has beaten Sinner on hard so if Sinner goes onto do as well as some think he will (i am sceptical) then i still think it is a bit early to judge
Racquet_smash
Professional
I don't think this is a good argument.
It's like saying that beating 2001 Federer at USO is like beating the tournament goat. Obviously, Federer was nowhere near what he would eventually become. Same goes for Sinner here as by 2022 he didn't even win a M1000
messiahrobins
Legend
Alcaraz beat Sinner last year on hard though
Racquet_smash
Professional
But not at slam level.
messiahrobins
Legend
Very true
Turning Pro
Hall of Fame
At least Nadal had a 2-1 Us open slam final edge over the HC Goat on his favourite surface.
Caz I suppose is 2-0 on Grass slam finals....
Caz I suppose is 2-0 on Grass slam finals....
Donkus_Reborn
Semi-Pro
Nadal only won US Open 2010 because Djokovic was yet to hit his peak, only won 2009 because Federer choked, and his last victory at AO was because Djokovic was banned and the only reason he won 2017 US Open was because he was slumping. Only reason, in fact Federer and Nadal both made the finals at AO17 was because Djokovic was slumping as well at the start of the year.
Just remember Nadal in his 3rd best season in 2008 lost to frikkin tsonga 2-3-2, and Murray at the US Open. Nadal in 2011 - his best season in terms of level of play was getting killed by Djokovic on all surfaces. 2010 Nadal only had success on hard because everyone was crap
Funny that when everyone who was capable of playing well, were playing well, Nadal was no where to be seen once the clay court season ends. He only won things on HC because every good player was slumping or injured.
Just remember Nadal in his 3rd best season in 2008 lost to frikkin tsonga 2-3-2, and Murray at the US Open. Nadal in 2011 - his best season in terms of level of play was getting killed by Djokovic on all surfaces. 2010 Nadal only had success on hard because everyone was crap
Funny that when everyone who was capable of playing well, were playing well, Nadal was no where to be seen once the clay court season ends. He only won things on HC because every good player was slumping or injured.
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