Nadal vs Murray Madrid 2016 Highlights

StrongRule said:
By the way, 2008 Djokovic surely wins RG with his 2016 draw, I don't doubt that for a moment.
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Maybe, maybe not. 2008 Djokovic had his own struggles starting with the 1st round. In any case, Agut was not even an easy match for peak Djokovic to deal with.
 
Phenomenal said:
Of course great memories for you fans. Seeing Nadal not contender or suggesting he couldn't win against Djokovic just ridiculous to me.
It is probably due to 2015-2016 Djokovic wins where most was outside of clay and 2015 is different than 2016.
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Nadal was the 2nd favorite for the tournament so I wouldn't exactly say that.
 
Hitman said:
Sorry. Not giving Nadal a hypothetical win in 2016. Not going to add any more to this discussion, as before we simply disagree. I predicted Djokovic v Murray final without hesitation before it happened, so not going to backtrack on a correct prediction because of the usual - If Nadal was not injured narrative. I'm out.
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This is Nadal's career not any narrative. I would say the same for Djokovic if i felt the same. Non Nadal fans obviously cannot understand Nadal or his fans feelings.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
What are you disagreeing about. Let's see some proof.

See this.

Djokovic -125
Nadal +350
Murray +400
Wawrinka +1600

I am telling you it was just some bad apples who wanted to declare Nadal as done. I was among them in 2015 but when Nadal did win mc in 2016 I reconsidered. These guys didn't, they wanted miracles to happen. But those were extreme fanatics.

bleacherreport.com

2016 French Open Odds: Djokovic Betting Favorite to Win Title over Nadal, Murray

Top seed Novak Djokovic has never won the French Open men’s singles title, as he finished second in 2012, 2014 and 2015. However, that has not stopped oddsmakers from making the world’s No...
bleacherreport.com bleacherreport.com
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This +400 is also because Nadal was in other half and Djokovic had to play Nadal before finals.

Andy did have to beat Stan but Stan is unpredictable as hell. Nadal was much stronger contender in people's mind. I don't trust TTW so can't say the same for them.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Now anyone with half knowledge of odds can see how much of an overwhelming favorite Djokovic was even before the tournament started. He basically lost 1 set to the final and that was during rain.

While our clayray had to save mps to just survive r1. He did win first set in the final when djokovic was nervous but when nerves were gone, Djokovic was lights out better than Andy. So much so that everyone started feeling SORRY for Andy. Like how they would feel sorry for Andy vs Nadal at rg in the years past.

@Hitman
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Murray had spent 5 more hours on court because of playing too low of a level throughout the tournament until the Wawrinka match. He should have wasted those guys instead of playing around wasting much needed energy. By the time he reached Djokovic, his tank was on low.
 
NoleFam said:
Murray had spent 5 more hours on court because of playing too low of a level throughout the tournament until the Wawrinka match. He should have wasted those guys instead of playing around wasting much needed energy. By the time he reached Djokovic, his tank was on low.
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Yes but that's where your real tennis level comes in question. Djokovic always played more hrs than Rafa before their matches and was tired. Except in 2015 of course. And Murray being inferior clay player struggled more than Djokovic almost always.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Yes but that's where your real tennis level comes in question. Djokovic always played more hrs than Rafa before their matches and was tired. Except in 2015 of course. And Murray being inferior clay player struggled more than Djokovic almost always.
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5 hours difference is a massive amount of more time though. Kind of like how Medvedev ran out of against Sinner this year because of spending too much time on court. Djokovic in 2021 USO is another example. All that adds up as the tournament progresses and can play a role in the final. Of course, Djokovic's top level is just higher. He would have beaten Murray regardless if he was fresher with the level he played in the last 3 sets.
 
Phenomenal said:
Was there any people in the world believes after the first 2 round Murray has more chance than Nadal? Man it's just hilarious.
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It was 2015-2016. Expectations for Nadal were a lot lower in those years, even from his fans. Berdych beat Nadal at the 2015 Australian Open 6-2, 6-0, 7-6, having not beaten Nadal since 2006 prior to that. Fognini beat Nadal on clay multiple times in 2015 in a troll like manner, Nadal played probably his worst match off the ground in the 2015 Madrid final against Murray, and Djokovic beat Nadal 7-5, 6-3, 6-1 in the 2015 French Open quarter final. Nadal beat Fognini in a bonkers match in the 2015 Hamburg final, 7-5, 7-5, where there were 12 breaks of serve, and it felt like a big win at the time. Then came an even more bonkers match between Nadal and Fognini at the 2015 US Open, where Nadal led by 2 sets a break, and again there were a tonne of service breaks, and this time Fognini won. I think the hearts of all Nadal fans sank at that moment.

Ironically, Nadal's best and most consistent form of 2015 was late in the year, post-US Open, although he didn't win a tournament at that time of the year.

2016 in some ways was even worse than 2015, with a first round loss at the Australian Open, where Verdasco hit 90+ winners against Nadal again (like in 2009) and this time beat Nadal in 5 sets, and a fourth round loss to Pouille at the US Open, and had to withdraw with a wrist injury during the French Open and couldn't play Wimbledon. In the majors, Nadal was worse in 2016 than 2015. However, Nadal's form in winning Monte Carlo and Barcelona in 2016 was probably his highest point of the entire 2015-2016 period. 2017 was a big revival year for Nadal that seemed a long way off in 2016. In 2017, it was suddenly Nadal and Federer all the rage again, when 2016 had been about Murray and Djokovic.
 
NoleFam said:
5 hours difference is a massive amount of more time though. Kind of like how Medvedev ran out of against Sinner this year because of spending too much time on court. Djokovic in 2021 USO is another example. All that adds as the tournament progresses and can play a role in the final. Of course, Djokovic's top level is just higher. He would beaten Murray regardless with the less he played in the last 3 sets.
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I don't know how much that hampered Murray.

Djokovic didn't outlast Murray. Djokovic went to net what 40 times? He played superior tennis and out attacked Murray. Who was almost about to lose 1 2 2 in last three sets.

Djokovic himself was in blinding form. He lost just 1 set in a rained out match vs RBA.
 
NoleFam said:
Nadal was the 2nd favorite for the tournament so I wouldn't exactly say that.
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Yeah probably before the tournament. Regardless it would be a good match had they faced. Could have been classic or might be more comfortable for 1 player just we will never know.
nolefam_2024 said:
This +400 is also because Nadal was in other half and Djokovic had to play Nadal before finals.

Andy did have to beat Stan but Stan is unpredictable as hell. Nadal was much stronger contender in people's mind. I don't trust TTW so can't say the same for them.
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Had Nadal continue to give breadsticks those odds would change a lot by the time these 2 meet. Again i never said Nadal was lock or anything but he would have good chance and Djoker is not unbeatable here.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I don't know how much that hampered Murray.

Djokovic didn't outlast Murray. Djokovic went to net what 40 times? He played superior tennis and out attacked Murray. Who was almost about to lose 1 2 2 in last three sets.

Djokovic himself was in blinding form. He lost just 1 set in a rained out match vs RBA.
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That's what I'm saying. He would have beaten Murray regardless if he wasn't tired because he played really well in those last 3 sets.
 
Mustard said:
I thought Murray had a good chance of winning the final, and I was bitterly annoyed at the time at Murray's performance in sets 2-4.
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It just look bizarre to me after the way tournament went. But it is probably due to their Rome meetings so i understand looking from there.
 
Phenomenal said:
Yeah probably before the tournament. Regardless it would be a good match had they faced. Could have been classic or might be more comfortable for 1 player just we will never know.

Had Nadal continue to give breadsticks those odds would change a lot by the time these 2 meet. Again i never said Nadal was lock or anything but he would have good chance and Djoker is not unbeatable here.
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Nadal destroyed his 1st two opponents. I don't think his odds would have gone down at all after that. It would have been a closer match than the 2015 one for sure, at least. Djokovic was the favorite though and to me that is the highest level he ever played at RG.
 
Phenomenal said:
Yeah probably before the tournament. Regardless it would be a good match had they faced. Could have been classic or might be more comfortable for 1 player just we will never know.

Had Nadal continue to give breadsticks those odds would change a lot by the time these 2 meet. Again i never said Nadal was lock or anything but he would have good chance and Djoker is not unbeatable here.
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Ofcourse djoker is not unbeatable. Just like Nadal is not unbeatable in other years.

It just would be far difficult to beat Djokovic in 2016. Tbh not much to think about. Nadal had yet to win a set in 7 matches that time. I think you are forgetting that.

But if Nadal was in other half with Murray he would be favored far more. No one expected Murray to beat Nadal and Djokovic back to back.
 
NoleFam said:
Nadal destroyed his 1st two opponents. I don't think his odds would have gone down at all after that. It would have been a closer match than the 2015 one for sure, at least. Djokovic was the favorite though and to me that is the highest level he ever played at RG.
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Not just favorite.

Overwhelming favorite. I am not making stuff up. The odds support that.
 
Mustard said:
It was 2015-2016. Expectations for Nadal were a lot lower in those years, even from his fans. Berdych beat Nadal at the 2015 Australian Open 6-2, 6-0, 7-6, having not beaten Nadal since 2006 prior to that. Fognini beat Nadal on clay multiple times in 2015 in a troll like manner, Nadal played probably his worst match off the ground in the 2015 Madrid final against Murray, and Djokovic beat Nadal 7-5, 6-3, 6-1 in the 2015 French Open quarter final. Nadal beat Fognini in a bonkers match in the 2015 Hamburg final, 7-5, 7-5, where there were 12 breaks of serve, and it felt like a big win at the time. Then came an even more bonkers match between Nadal and Fognini at the 2015 US Open, where Nadal led by 2 sets a break, and again there were a tonne of service breaks, and this time Fognini won. I think the hearts of all Nadal fans sank at that moment.

Ironically, Nadal's best and most consistent form of 2015 was late in the year, post-US Open, although he didn't win a tournament at that time of the year.

2016 in some ways was even worse than 2015, with a first round loss at the Australian Open, where Verdasco hit 90+ winners against Nadal again (like in 2009) and this time beat Nadal in 5 sets, and a fourth round loss to Pouille at the US Open, and had to withdraw with a wrist injury during the French Open and couldn't play Wimbledon. In the majors, Nadal was worse in 2016 than 2015. However, Nadal's form in winning Monte Carlo and Barcelona in 2016 was probably his highest point of the entire 2015-2016 period. 2017 was a big revival year for Nadal that seemed a long way off in 2016. In 2017, it was suddenly Nadal and Federer all the rage again, when 2016 had been about Murray and Djokovic.
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I know he was better post USO in 2015 ironically. Yeah that Hamburg win was satisfying finally against Fognini. His record was worse but he was better in 2016 than 2015 on clay.
Nadal lost a close match against Delpo in the olympics. I was most upset in the Pouille match USO.
 
NoleFam said:
Nadal destroyed his 1st two opponents. I don't think his odds would have gone down at all after that. It would have been a closer match than the 2015 one for sure, at least. Djokovic was the favorite though and to me that is the highest level he ever played at RG.
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Maybe true just not easy or maybe not possible to compare with the other years. Because he didn't faced Nadal or not even Federer. Because nobody pushed him. His 2013 or 2012 version hyphotetical 2011 normal conditions: ) might be bette or reached higher levels inside like 2012 F but not whole.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Not just favorite.

Overwhelming favorite. I am not making stuff up. The odds support that.
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To you and @Hitman 's point, yea Djokovic was the massive favorite for RG that year. All the pressure was on him. Nadal was #2 because it's RG but not a lot of people believed he would win the title. I probably could pull expert picks before the tournament and I'm sure almost all picked Djokovic.
 
StrongRule said:
That performance was awful even by Murray's slam final standards though. But some Djokovic fans think that collapsing against Djokovic means playing great.
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Come on, at least he won a set so it couldn't have been that bad compared to some of his straight set losses.
 
NoleFam said:
To you and @Hitman 's point, yea Djokovic was the massive favorite for RG that year. All the pressure was on him. Nadal was #2 because it's RG but not a lot of people believed he would win the title. I probably could pull expert picks before the tournament and I'm sure almost all picked Djokovic.
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Yes pull it

More evidence the better.

But these experts are dumbasses. I prefer oddsmakers tbh because they are playing with money.
 
Phenomenal said:
Maybe true just not easy or maybe not possible to compare with the other years. Because he didn't faced Nadal or not even Federer. Because nobody pushed him. His 2013 or 2012 version hyphotetical 2011 normal conditions: ) might be bette or reached higher levels inside like 2012 F but not whole.
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Well I look beyond whether he played the big 3 (Federer didn't in 2009 either) and look at the ballstriking, shot tolerance, aggression, movement, etc. and it was at its highest in 2016 in my opinion. I would put 2012, 2013 and 2016 as his 3 highest levels at RG imo. I put 2016 at the top because of the shot tolerance and he wasn't having many lapses or going off his stride too long in matches.
 
NoleFam said:
Well I look beyond whether he played the big 3 (Federer didn't in 2009 either) and look at the ballstriking, shot tolerance, aggression, movement, etc. and it was at its highest in 2016 in my opinion. I would put 2012, 2013 and 2016 as his 3 highest levels at RG imo. I put 2016 at the top because of the shot tolerance and he wasn't having many lapses or going off his stride too long in matches.
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I think 2015 was better than 2016 but 2016 was great as well. 2015 his forehand looked amazing. Sadly he couldn't beat Stan. But had ridiculous clay season.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Yes pull it

More evidence the better.

But these experts are dumbasses. I prefer oddsmakers tbh because they are playing with money.
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ESPN all picked Djokovic and Murray. Tennis.com picks were different and 2 picked Nadal.

www.espn.com

French Open picks: Some doubts with Djoker, Serena

Sure, Novak Djokovic and Serena Williams are the world No. 1 players, but not all of our experts believe the favorites will win the French Open.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
 
Mainad said:
Interesting that he only ever won 1 title at Hamburg (2008) and made 1 other final (2007) which is by far his lowest tally for any big clay event. Clearly altitude wasn't the only consideration. What was it about Hamburg that he fared so poorly there by comparison?
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What are you taking about?
Nadal had three participations in Hamburg as Masters 1000.
In 2003, when he was only 16 years old, he defeated a former RG champion in that edition, such as Carlos Moya, his current coach.
And 2007 when he was a finalist and reached the final exhausted, losing sets 2 and 3 to Federer in an ugly way and in 2008, he took revenge and defeated the Swiss player in three sets.
So, your premise that he only won one title there was not because he had too many problems but rather that the Hamburg tournament left its Masters 1000 category starting with the 2009 season and was degraded to be an ATP 500 until today.
:notworthy:
 
I don't think Djokovic was massive favourite or should say he shouldn't be the massive favourite.

Forgot to add had 2015 never happened people's thoughts would reverse 180.
 
DSH said:
What are you taking about?
Nadal had three participations in Hamburg as Masters 1000.
In 2003, when he was only 16 years old, he defeated a former RG champion in that edition, such as Carlos Moya, his current coach.
And 2007 when he was a finalist and reached the final exhausted, losing sets 2 and 3 to Federer in an ugly way and in 2008, he took revenge and defeated the Swiss player in three sets.
So, your premise that he only won one title there was not because he had too many problems but rather that the Hamburg tournament left its Masters 1000 category starting with the 2009 season and was degraded to be an ATP 500 until today.
:notworthy:
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Ok, wasn't aware he hadn't played it as much.
 
Phenomenal said:
I don't think Djokovic was massive favourite or should say he shouldn't be the massive favourite.

Forgot to add had 2015 never happened people's thoughts would reverse 180.
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You can say whatever you want. Retroactively..

Fact is he was.

Should we count what Djokovic had done prior Roland Garros now?

Destroyed fedal and Murray in January. Won IW Miami back to back without dropping much sets.

Had won 4 of the last 5 slams and was in final of fifth.

Was in virtually in final of every Roland Garros since 2012.

Had highest ever point accumulated at that time and was holding 3/4 slams and 6/9 masters and ATP finals.

You can think he shouldn't be that big a favorite but you don't remember then. Djokovic was -125 favorite for Roland Garros. That's as ridiculous as almost all of Nadal's Roland Garros odds.
 
NoleFam said:
Well I look beyond whether he played the big 3 (Federer didn't in 2009 either) and look at the ballstriking, shot tolerance, aggression, movement, etc. and it was at its highest in 2016 in my opinion. I would put 2012, 2013 and 2016 as his 3 highest levels at RG imo. I put 2016 at the top because of the shot tolerance and he wasn't having many lapses or going off his stride too long in matches.
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Yeah i can mainly talk about my guy but i don't think Federer's best was 2009 whatsoever considering the early challenges.
I disagree making certain point about one is better than other. But idk as much as you do for Djokovic. Yeah very likely his 3 best years are those years. What about 2014?

Mentally physically it's just so much different playing against Nadal to others. So how will those skills looked shot tolerance against Nadal etc.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
You can say whatever you want. Retroactively..

Fact is he was.

Should we count what Djokovic had done prior Roland Garros now?

Destroyed fedal and Murray in January. Won IW Miami back to back without dropping much sets.

Had won 4 of the last 5 slams and was in final of fifth.

Was in virtually in final of every Roland Garros since 2012.

Had highest ever point accumulated at that time and was holding 3/4 slams and 6/9 masters and ATP finals.

You can think he shouldn't be that big a favorite but you don't remember then. Djokovic was -125 favorite for Roland Garros. That's as ridiculous as almost all of Nadal's Roland Garros odds.
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Yeah they are just different tournaments all i'm saying using Doha 2016 or WTF 2015 to RG just doesn't make many sense to me. But Rafa's 2015 clay was horrible so his odds for this reason was very low.
 
NoleFam said:
Why not? He was dominating the game and his win percentage on clay in 2015-2016 was 91%.
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Because of RG15 F Without Nadal i mean after winning agaisnt him he didn't win the F against Stan where he must be heavy favourite. That year showed he couldn't be lock or smth imo.
 
Phenomenal said:
Yeah they are just different tournaments all i'm saying using Doha 2016 or WTF 2015 to RG just doesn't make many sense to me. But Rafa's 2015 clay was horrible so his odds for this reason was very low.
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Those all count.

If sinner goes into RG winning any of the next masters, would you say he should not be strong favorite because he never won RG? Ofcourse not.

Yes rg results will carry most weight but Djokovic had absolutely bodied entire ATP at that time.

Remember how Andy's mom started smiling when Djokovic got knocked out in Wimbledon? No one was thinking beating Djokovic is easy. Most would come defeated on the court.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Those all count.

If sinner goes into RG winning any of the next masters, would you say he should not be strong favorite because he never won RG? Ofcourse not.

Yes rg results will carry most weight but Djokovic had absolutely bodied entire ATP at that time.

Remember how Andy's mom started smiling when Djokovic got knocked out in Wimbledon? No one was thinking beating Djokovic is easy. Most would come defeated on the court.
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If Sinner or any doesn't win any clay masters + no history at RG yes he can't be strong favourite to me.
 
Phenomenal said:
Because of RG15 F Without Nadal i mean after winning agaisnt him he didn't won the F against Stan where he must be heavy favourite. That year showed he couldn't be lock or smth imo.
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He was dominating every surface. He was the favorite for every tournament he entered. 2015 RG final was literally the only big loss he had in a Slam from 2014 Paris Masters - 2016 Roland Garros.
 
Phenomenal said:
If Sinner or any doesn't win any clay masters + no history at RG yes he can't be strong favourite to me.
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Was Djokovic not a strong favorite in 2011 Roland Garros ?

Also i said if sinner wins a masters on clay in Madrid or Rome.

Just like Djokovic had won in Madrid 2016 already on top of a year and half of absolutely running through everyone.
 
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nolefam_2024 said:
Djokovic was second favorite according to oddsmakers but he and Nadal were far and away ahead of others. Even though federer had won RG and djokovic had not.

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At that point, Djokovic had not beaten Nadal over best of 5 sets, and this was the French Open we're talking about, where Nadal's record at the time was a 5-time French Open champion and a win-loss record of 38-1.
 
Mustard said:
At that point, Djokovic had not beaten Nadal over best of 5 sets, and this was the French Open we're talking about, where Nadal's record at the time was a 5-time French Open champion and a win-loss record of 38-1.
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True. That's what I am saying. If Djokovic was so close to Nadal in 2011 itself, there is absolutely no reason for Djokovic not being overwhelming favorite for 2016 RG.


It was basically Djokovic favored vs the entire field according to oddsmakers. And that's the odds Nadal usually gets in RG.
 
In fact 2015 also Djokovic was favored vs entire field


And surprisingly Murray was third favorite. I imagine people had given up on Roger then on clay but it's surprising to me. While Roger didn't win masters, he did play in Rome finals and won a small tournament and he is freaking Roger Federer. Oddsmakers respected him less than I would.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
In fact 2015 also Djokovic was favored vs entire field


And surprisingly Murray was third favorite. I imagine people had given up on Roger then on clay but it's surprising to me. While Roger didn't win masters, he did play in Rome finals and won a small tournament and he is freaking Roger Federer. Oddsmakers respected him less than I would.
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Nadal was favourite with the bookies in 2013 and 2014, but quite a number of pundits were going for Djokovic.
 
Mustard said:
Nadal was favourite with the bookies in 2013 and 2014, but quite a number of pundits were going for Djokovic.
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2014 Djokovic was pre tournament favorite according to most oddsmakers. But during tournament nadal became favorite.

Ofcourse Djokovic and Nadal were far and away ahead of the rest but both weren't odds on favorite.
 
Btw I had totally forgotten about Murray beating healthy Rafa in Madrid in 2016. I used to get angry Murray ended year at number 1 with fedal gone and Djokovic injured. Thanks for reminding again how good Murray was in 2016. By volume, best player of the year easily.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I don't know but I will ask @MichaelNadal his opinions before the tournament.

Djokovic was far away the favorite but basically everyone was looking and salivating at seeing the semis as deciding match.

there were some very pessimistic Nadal fans but they were agenda driven to take the glory away from Nole. He was looking at ncygs never done before.
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Catch me up on what yall are talking about?
 
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