OldschoolKIaus
Hall of Fame
Safin AO05 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *get some coffee* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Nadal AO09
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Bear in mind 90% of those voting never saw Safin play one match, much less this particular one.
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
OldschoolKIaus
Hall of Fame
By the same token, are people overestimating the value of Nadal barely beating Verdasco in the AO SF as an indication of peak Nadal at AO when Verdasco was seeded 14th and Nadal easily beat Verdasco on numerous other occasions.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea but Verdasco had already proved himself that tournament before facing Nadal by beating Murray, Tsonga and destroying Stepanek. The most young Nadal did in 2005 was scrape by Youhnzy in 5 sets.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
You’re not looking at the actual match, though. Just the seeded numbers and matches outside of that particular tournament. I don’t really give a damn about what happened in, say, Rome 2010 when we’re talking about the AO 2009 SF.
Verdasco at that 2009 SF is the definition of a statistical anomaly. He shouldn’t have been that good based on his results in other tournaments. But he was.
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
Just like Djokovic in the USO 2010 F.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Lets not go too far the other way. Nadal nearly beat Federer in Miami, won Montreal and Madrid indoors- won 9 other titles including the FO. He was worth waaaaay more than his ranking there. Obviously Verdasco played a lot better than 2005 Nadal though.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
That was AO though. Djokovic in 2007 AO is not the same as Djokovic in 2007 USO, and the same for Del Potro in 2009 AO/USO because they hadn't crossed the threshold yet.
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NatF
Bionic Poster
Djokovic made the jump in Miami in 2007 not the USO. Obviously he didn't acquit himself that well at the AO though. Nadal otoh did play and it seems very disengenious to just refer to dismiss him so easily. Besides that Hewitt wouldn't the first player to play himself into form anyway, not peaking in the 4R is hardly a damning indictment lol. It's not like Djokovic himself didn't have some trouble with metal-toe Rusty in 2012 in the very same round - no where near the extent of Hewitt/Nadal in 2005 but he was very competitive for a set and a half. Or even in 2016, Djokovic was leaking errors against Simon but raised his level heavily in the later rounds - Hewitt's best match in 2005 at the AO was the SF by far.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Peak Federer lost ONE TIME in a Slam outside of clay. 4/4 at Wimbledon. 4/4 at the USO. 3/4 at the AO. Wonder which match he lost?
Nadal needed 5 hours to barely beat Chokedasco and should've lost the final against Federer who was playing without his serve and with fresh mental wounds from 2008.
Safin in that kind of form isn't losing to anyone.
Nadal needed 5 hours to barely beat Chokedasco and should've lost the final against Federer who was playing without his serve and with fresh mental wounds from 2008.
Safin in that kind of form isn't losing to anyone.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I know when Djokovic made the jump but I am just making a comparison, and they are two different players. Nadal was ranked #56 though and had done nothing up to that point so I don't know what you want me to say. I'm not saying Hewitt didn't play well that tournament; I'm just saying beating that Nadal isn't really much to brag about.
NatF
Bionic Poster
You fixation on the fact that Nadal was #56, excluding the fact he nearly won Miami over peak Federer a few weeks later, ended the year ranked #2 etc...feels a little dishonest but whatever lol. It was a good win, no more than that so don't agree with anyone that's building it up to show super Hewitt lol. No need to downplay it either though. Wasn't even Hewitt's best match of the tournament.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
He had better wins in that tournament than beating Nadal so don't know what is the problem here. Miami was 2 months later. Just like Djokovic made his jump in 2007 Miami, same for Nadal in 2005 Miami. He became a different player.
NatF
Bionic Poster
True in the case for Djokovic but not for Nadal IMO.
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
NonP
Legend
Who gives a crap, GOATing Pistol crushes 'em both.
For those who do, I say it's a toss-up. Put a gun to my head and I'd probably pick Safin for his serve advantage, but Rafa actually defends better on his BH side so Marat's DTL BH wouldn't be all that effective against him. In any case you'd be unwise to bet except on a close 5-setter.
Barton Fink does deserve some props for its ambition and anti-commercialism, but it's still a slick distillation of the Coen brothers' adolescent fantasies which allow them to thumb their nose at sacred cows left and right while offering no alternative vision of their own. And their view of humanity at large is hardly more mature, which is fitting for these movie brats who could never understand that the world and life aren't the same thing, let alone why.
The Coens may be "seminal" in the eyes of the mainstream and "independent" media, but they're not ready to challenge fellow movie brats like Scorsese and Lee or fellow young-at-hearts like Malick and Linklater, let alone true giants like Godard and Hou Hsiao-Hsien. And among fellow (living) sibling filmmakers the Dardennes and even the Safdies will have left a more lasting mark on world cinema after all is said and done.
For those who do, I say it's a toss-up. Put a gun to my head and I'd probably pick Safin for his serve advantage, but Rafa actually defends better on his BH side so Marat's DTL BH wouldn't be all that effective against him. In any case you'd be unwise to bet except on a close 5-setter.
Barton Fink does deserve some props for its ambition and anti-commercialism, but it's still a slick distillation of the Coen brothers' adolescent fantasies which allow them to thumb their nose at sacred cows left and right while offering no alternative vision of their own. And their view of humanity at large is hardly more mature, which is fitting for these movie brats who could never understand that the world and life aren't the same thing, let alone why.
The Coens may be "seminal" in the eyes of the mainstream and "independent" media, but they're not ready to challenge fellow movie brats like Scorsese and Lee or fellow young-at-hearts like Malick and Linklater, let alone true giants like Godard and Hou Hsiao-Hsien. And among fellow (living) sibling filmmakers the Dardennes and even the Safdies will have left a more lasting mark on world cinema after all is said and done.
Mivic
Hall of Fame
This makes no sense. You can’t say that match-ups matter and that the outcomes of tennis matches aren’t transitive and then in the same breath talk about Safin being in the BOAT conversation in Australia as a result of one performance against one opponent with one particular style. If Federer is the ultimate barometer of a player’s ability then I would say that Nadal ranks very high in the GOAT stakes too. Of course, it’s easier for Federer fans to put someone who isn’t a threat to his records in the BOAT conversation than someone who is on the verge of surpassing him.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
I’ve never gotten anything out of his movies. They have felt constructed, faux intellectual and completely dead. Cinematographically uninteresting and infinitely boring. Godard is a ****ing bore. He’s made his films for the critics.
NonP
Legend
Godard is not one of my personal faves, either, but as recently as this past decade the octogenarian was producing such experimental works as Goodbye to Language (2014) and The Image Book (2018). Apart from the late Varda and Manoel de Oliveira* I can't think of any other contemporary filmmaker whose creative urge and force had yet to dim at such an advanced age. That's cause for celebration, no matter what or how you feel about him.
Not sure how acquainted you are with his major works but if you haven't you may wanna check out his Vivre sa vie (My Life to Live, 1962), Bande à part (Band of Outsiders, 1964) and Alphaville (1965). If these don't do anything for you, then yeah we'll just have to disagree.
*And check out this lovely swan song by the Portuguese master:
Still don't think I was reaching when I named the short film one of my top 5-6 of 2015 (would probably yank the other co-#5, though I should revisit it at least once). As you can see I like my share of "infinitely boring" movies, LOL.
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
Yes, let's talk about movies here. These two are probably even anyway.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
The question in this matchup is if Safin can avoid giving away entire sets and whether he can maintain his focus and discipline off the ground to hit Nadal off the court. In the SF, Safin made Fed fight for every single set which is big (he came apart a bit in the last game of the first and wasn't great in the third, but he still stayed in them enough and made Federer have to work very hard to take them).
In the final, he had a first set hangover, but played a very disciplined match after that against Hewitt. You probably don't want to give Nadal a free set though.
In the final, he had a first set hangover, but played a very disciplined match after that against Hewitt. You probably don't want to give Nadal a free set though.
beast of mallorca
G.O.A.T.
You like concocting "beautiful" threads, papi
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Ok but Nadal was a rock wall during AO09. I have a hard time believing even peak Safin would be able to break through that without getting frustrated first.
And yes, I have seen plenty of peak Safin.
Oh well. Any excuse for me to to rewatch the AO05 semi. "Research purposes"
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
6august
Hall of Fame
According to TT, both are better than peak Nole - the undisputed King of the AO.
))
Safin beat Fred and Hewitt, 2 multiple GS champions. Hewitt also beat Roddick, former GS champion and Davydenko - a decent HC player so I don't think Ned beat Fred and Nando could be a more impressive fact.
I vote Safin.
))
Safin beat Fred and Hewitt, 2 multiple GS champions. Hewitt also beat Roddick, former GS champion and Davydenko - a decent HC player so I don't think Ned beat Fred and Nando could be a more impressive fact.
I vote Safin.
skaj
Legend
You mean TT 10 years ago, before Djoko's rise during which people who like to identify with a winner(so they can feel better about their own lives), suddenly became his fans. It used to be Federer, but nowadays it is Djokoloco who is the best at almost everything - his forehand is top5 all time, he has a great balance, excellent volleys, he's the most intelligent player, the most genuine among players, etc. etc. Don't even think of saying that Agassi's return of serve or Nalbandian's backhand are just as good, or a little better, god forbid...
6august
Hall of Fame
His forehand is Top 5? No
He has great balance? Yes. Anyone who can immediately get back to ready position after a crazy slice must have phenomenal balance.
Excellent volley? No. His is worse than mine. I made a thread about it. ))
The most intelligent player? Definitely one of the most.
Genuine? I have no idea.
ROS? As good as Agassi, at least.
Backhand? Day in day out better than Nalbandian for sure.
I'm not a fan of Djokovic but I find his tennis the most interesting among Big 3. Sounds weird and ridiculous? Because he's the one who doesn't have a massive killing weapon like fedal but knows how to utilize everything he has to make it a weapon. Juniors should learn from him.
))
skaj
Legend
It was just a couple of examples but anyway.
Has a great balance? No. He has to go very low to achieve good balance, otherwise his balance is not great(which is normal for people of his build).
The most intelligent player? Definitely not one of the most. A person with an average intelligence and poor education who is desperate to sound smart and eloquent.
Return of serve? Not indisputably better than Agassi's(that was the point of my example)
Backhand? Day in day out has to do with consistency overall, I was talking about the shot. Also see "the return of serve", same goes for David's backhand.
Don't know what your criterion for interesting tennis is. Personally, I find Federer's skillful, graceful, smart, variety game to be much more interesting than the other two's. As for the weapons, forehand is not the only shot that can be a weapon. Djoko has a great weapons in his backhand and return of serve, as well as a very solid forehand, decent serve, great mobility, plus the right attitude. So, it's not like he is making something out of noting, on the contrary.
abmk
Bionic Poster
that makes Nadal's draw tougher, not his peak level better.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
Safin took down peak Federer (single toughest opponent) and peak Hewitt (very good opponent) so competition shouldn't really be a factor anyways.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
He was not peak in 2007 and 2008 lol
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Deleted member 748597
Guest
Federer lost to baby Djokovic at his peak.
Bamoos
Semi-Pro
you don’t just become a new
player in 2 months. 05/07 Nadal were there from the start but ran into great opponents so lost early at the AO
sounds like excuse making. Federer in 03 was very good most of the season but ran into peak Nalbandian twice at HC slams and narrowly lost.
Bamoos
Semi-Pro
He was peak but his opponents were too good.
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Deleted member 758560
Guest
yea the peakest of the peak that even youzhny open managed to take away from tsonga much more games than him lol
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Well Djokovic did become a totally different player in 2007 between AO and IW and his results show it as well as level of play, unless you think he was the same player at Wim, RG and USO that he was early in the year when he lost twice in a row to Youhnzy.
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Deleted member 758560
Guest
it's really possible..like fed in 11 when he played one of the best matches (maybe even the best) at roland garros ever but then just in four months he became a totally different player and his form was going down so low (comparing to french) ..to level number 7..such a great downgrade
Yugram
Legend
Куда ты дел 2012-ый?it's really possible..like fed in 11 when he played one of the best matches (maybe even the best) at roland garros ever but then just in four months he became a totally different player and his form was going down so low (comparing to french) ..to level number 7..such a great downgrade
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Deleted member 758560
Guest
да как-то не думал об этом, только был нацелен на 11годКуда ты дел 2012-ый?
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Hypotheticals 
ibbi
Talk Tennis Guru
I mean, what are you asking? Who's better? Through 5 rounds Nadal played better players, and beat them easier. In the final he played a far better player than Safin did, both their performances were outstanding in completely different ways, then it comes down to the semi final. Verdasco played the god of defensive tennis, on a defensive players court, can you imagine if he got to play a fellow attacker on an attackers court? He had a higher first serve percentage than either Federer or Safin, and he was not rolling them in. He hit 21 aces (Federer had 22, Safin 16) and he did that too on a slow, bouncy court, against the hardest dude to ace in probably the history of the game? 100 winners to 70 unforced (again, against ****ing Nadal on that clay court in all but name) looks a lot better to me than 70 odd to 50 odd. i.e. it's not much of a stretch at all to say Verdasco played better in that match than Federer did in his, making it a clean sweep for Nadal over Safin for me.
If rather than who's better you ask who would win? AO09 Nadal vs. AO05 Safin just seems to me like it'd be a RAGE! Like that's the kind of sound and fury I'm here for. Now here's the tale told by the idiot. It's close because Safin is 6'4 with an ATG backhand, but regardless, I'm not sure Marat Safin at any time in his career is going to have the patience to beat Nadal.
Like, presumably Safin will play a vaguely similar way to how Verdasco did. The two keys for me are that he's going to be better off the backhand wing, how much will that count for? In the iconic semi with Federer that I think most people would consider his peak, his backhand was not THAT good. He still made a lot of errors, and Verdasco played pretty damn well off that wing himself that night in 2009. Even in the Agassi match in 2004 Safin was very shaky off that wing, especially early. The second key is that he's going to attack the net a lot more than Verdasco did. Safin at net vs Nadal at the baseline? Of course then you also have to bring up the issue of what court are they playing on, and that's probably what will ultimately determine any such hypothetical
If rather than who's better you ask who would win? AO09 Nadal vs. AO05 Safin just seems to me like it'd be a RAGE! Like that's the kind of sound and fury I'm here for. Now here's the tale told by the idiot. It's close because Safin is 6'4 with an ATG backhand, but regardless, I'm not sure Marat Safin at any time in his career is going to have the patience to beat Nadal.
Like, presumably Safin will play a vaguely similar way to how Verdasco did. The two keys for me are that he's going to be better off the backhand wing, how much will that count for? In the iconic semi with Federer that I think most people would consider his peak, his backhand was not THAT good. He still made a lot of errors, and Verdasco played pretty damn well off that wing himself that night in 2009. Even in the Agassi match in 2004 Safin was very shaky off that wing, especially early. The second key is that he's going to attack the net a lot more than Verdasco did. Safin at net vs Nadal at the baseline? Of course then you also have to bring up the issue of what court are they playing on, and that's probably what will ultimately determine any such hypothetical
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