Nadal vs. Tsonga LIVE

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
OK. If you're older than him then fair enough.

However, even though they mean the same they imply differently in a people sense. if you refer something similar to you it does make you seem self centered especially when the guy you're comparing yourself to is better. Putting non allcourters in the ugly category just shows that you don't accept games that are not similar to yours which strengthens my argument.
When did I ever say that ALL non all-courters have ugly games? :confused: I said Nadal and Roddick are ugly because I find their strokes to look ugly. There are many other non all-courter whose games I find not to be ugly at all, e.g., Safin, Borg, Vilas, Djokovic, etc.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
No, it doesn't work that way. When you compare yourself to someone/something who's obviously better (like Fed is) it makes a difference what side you're on. I can say 'my nose looks like Brad Pitt' but if he said 'my nose looks like that handsome dude Defcon' it would be downright silly and nonsensical, while still technically true. It doesn't matter who got the nose first!

But I'm pretty sure you know this perfectly well and are just trying to win an argument at all costs, again. However I have no desire to get involved in pedantic debates over semantics.
Yes, it does work that way, and no, I do not know perfectly well. A style of play is a style of play, period. Saying "my style is similar to his" or saying "his style is similar to mine" is saying the EXACT same thing! 2 x 2 = 1 x 4 just like 1 x 4 = 2 x 2.

Saying "I like Federer because he plays an all-court style similar to mine" is saying the EXACT same thing as saying "I like Federer because I play an all-court style similar to his." What's the difference? The point is I like him because we play similar styles.

If I were black and I said - "I'm going to vote for Obama because he's black like me." Is that any different than saying - "I'm going to vote for Obama because I'm black like him"? No, it's saying the EXACT same thing!!
 

edmondsm

Legend
When did I ever say that ALL non all-courters have ugly games? :confused: I said Nadal and Roddick are ugly because I find their strokes to look ugly. There are many other non all-courter whose games I find not to be ugly at all, e.g., Safin, Borg, Vilas, Djokovic, etc.
Safin doesn't have an all-court game? Djokovic?!?! Am I missing something here?
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Safin doesn't have an all-court game? Djokovic?!?! Am I missing something here?
How often do Safin or Djokovic serve and volley or come into the net off of the serve return? The only time they ever come into the net is if they're given a personalized invitation in a fancy sealed envelope. ;-) Both Djokovic and Safin qualify as baseliners. Their primary game plan is to pound their opponents into oblivion from the baseline, not to attack the net as often as possible. I think almost everyone will agree with me on that.
 

tbini87

Hall of Fame
wow, tsonga is playing great tennis! he looks calm and collected. i don't think that will last the entire match though...
 

edmondsm

Legend
How often do Safin or Djokovic serve and volley or come into the net off of the serve return? The only time they ever come into the net is if they're given a personalized invitation in a fancy sealed envelope. ;-) Both Djokovic and Safin qualify as baseliners. Their primary game plan is to pound their opponents into oblivion from the baseline, not to attack the net as often as possible. I think almost everyone will agree with me on that.
Huh? But if they were attacking the net as often as possible that wouldn't make them an all-courter. They would be a fast court player. How can you say that a guy who has been to the semis of all for slams is not an all-courter. Seems to me his game suits, all-courts. Is Nalbandian not an all-court player?

Some guys who I don't consider all-courters:

Roddick, Karlovic, Gaudio, Coria. These guys have games that are tailor made for a certain surface.
 

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
But if they were attacking the net as often as possible that wouldn't make them an all-courter. They would be a fast court player. How can you say that a guy who has been to the semis of all for slams is not an all-courter. Seems to me his game suits, all-courts. Is Nalbandian not an all-court player?
generally, when someone says 'all-court' players they mean they are using all areas of the court in their game, not surfaces.

Players that mix up baseline & net games(like Tsonga) are all-courters. Nalbandian & Djokovic do not use all areas of the court.
 
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BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Huh? But if they were attacking the net as often as possible that wouldn't make them an all-courter. They would be a fast court player. How can you say that a guy who has been to the semis of all for slams is not an all-courter. Seems to me his game suits, all-courts. Is Nalbandian not an all-court player?

Some guys who I don't consider all-courters:

Roddick, Karlovic, Gaudio, Coria. These guys have games that are tailor made for a certain surface.
OK, I'm really surprised you asked that question and now I understand where the confusion is, and I guess it was my mistake to assume the level of your tennis knowledge seeing that you've been here for quite some time.

The term "all-courter" in tennis DOES NOT mean that you're able to play on all court surfaces. It's a reference to one's style of play, such as serve and volleyer, baseliner, or all-courter. Serve and vollyers are like Edberg, Henman and Rafter who come into the net after almost every serve and chip and charge on returns. Baseliners are like Hewitt, Nadal, and Agassi who win most of their points by pounding from the baseline. All-courters are like Federer, Fish, and Tsonga who may not serve and volley all the time but who try and come into the net at every opportunity to end the point. They have good transition games and good volleys.
 
Huh? But if they were attacking the net as often as possible that wouldn't make them an all-courter. They would be a fast court player. How can you say that a guy who has been to the semis of all for slams is not an all-courter. Seems to me his game suits, all-courts. Is Nalbandian not an all-court player?

Some guys who I don't consider all-courters:

Roddick, Karlovic, Gaudio, Coria. These guys have games that are tailor made for a certain surface.
Karlovic has a TITLE on clay.
 

TennezSport

Hall of Fame
Just let me say..........

OK I just have to say this. I have nothing against Rafa as I think he is a great clay court player, but on HC, after almost 4 years can we finally admit he is just an average top 30 player.

I am not trying to start any arguments and show disrepect, but it's time to face facts. And please do not say that he played great until the semis, when he faced Troicki #126, Serra #88, Simon #33, Mathieu #25 who ret., Nieminen #26 and Tsonga # 38(who played very well and smartly)

What we saw here was great playing from Tsonga but with the same game plan that Blake, Youhzny, Berdych, Ferrero, Gonzo, Fed and others use against Rafa on hard court. How many times did Rafa's groundstrokes land around the service line or shorter??? Same old story!

Clay court game and tactics do not work against a hard hitter on HC; not even a slow HC if played aggressive enough. What I really liked was not only did Tsonga keep Rafa moving side to side and deep but he also short sliced and drop volleyed him further keeping Rafa off balance. Rafa has absolutely no answer for this type of game because he has no other game.

If Rafa serves harder or flattens out his strokes he makes a lot more errors, which is not his game. Even Cliff Drysdale said that "Rafa can be beaten so handly on a court like this" and the list of players that can do this growing.

With Rafa's knees still in question (even though he says he is healthy, he is still strapped) and more and more players getting a crack at Rafa, 2008 will be a very telling year. I could be wrong.............or I could be right; time will tell.

TennezSport :cool:
 

jmsx521

Hall of Fame
Wow, again I am 876 posts late. I just saw the match on ESPN2 (tape), without knowing what the result will be. Didn't look at the news the whole day. I am sure many of you were amazed by the performance. I normally don't root for anybody, just enjoy watching the pros' match-ups with each other, and how their matches turn out. I have to say that I can't ever remember seeing Nadal look like a lightweight versing a heavyweight; if Nadal has a heavyweight game, then Tsonga has a monster game. Things might be different if they played on clay though! But anyway, even if Tsonga loses the final, this guy will already have made a major step for himself!
 
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msc886

Professional
When did I ever say that ALL non all-courters have ugly games? :confused: I said Nadal and Roddick are ugly because I find their strokes to look ugly. There are many other non all-courter whose games I find not to be ugly at all, e.g., Safin, Borg, Vilas, Djokovic, etc.
No you didn't say that but from what you 've said before it can be assumed that you don't like non-all court game.
 
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mileslong

Professional
Fed won't stop this.
man can't you post on one thread without bringing federer into the
discussion? just because your boy is once getting his arse handed to
him on hard courts is no reason to start dissing federer. by the way, nadal
is the only on tour i can think of who jumps up and does fist pumps after
his opponents unforced errors so please quit talking about tsongas' arm waving.
 

Shabazza

Legend
Here, the one thing you're doing wrong is comparing the 'good' nadal fans to the 'bad' federer fans.

The good Federer fans love the winning, sure (as do the good Nadal fans), but they appreciate seeing the game of tennis be played in a way, with such ability and prowess, that simply has never been seen before. There are only a few 'bad' fans of each player, it's just a shame that they choose to be so noisy on these boards.

For the record, in real life, I've never met 'bad' fans of either.
Talking sense is prohibited on message boards! Don't you know?!
 

Zaragoza

Banned
OK I just have to say this. I have nothing against Rafa as I think he is a great clay court player, but on HC, after almost 4 years can we finally admit he is just an average top 30 player.
This gets the award for most ridiculous statement in this thread and we all know the competition has been tough. Only you or someone totally biased against Nadal can say he is an average top 30 player on hardcourts, that´s simply ridiculous and ignorant. He was the 3rd best player on hardcourts last year (see ranking points). He has won 3 Masters Series on hardcourts and also played 2 finals, semifinals in the AO and QF in the USO. You´re the one who needs to face the facts and stop trolling after a semifinal loss in a major. Thanks.

-Zaragoza-
 

iradical18

Professional
This gets the award for most ridiculous statement in this thread and we all know the competition has been tough. Only you or someone totally biased against Nadal can say he is an average top 30 player on hardcourts, that´s simply ridiculous and ignorant. He was the 3rd best player on hardcourts last year (see ranking points). He has won 3 Masters Series on hardcourts and also played 2 finals, semifinals in the AO and QF in the USO. You´re the one who needs to face the facts and stop trolling after a semifinal loss in a major. Thanks.

-Zaragoza-
Agreed. I'm not a Nadal fan by any means but I also have sense enough to know that he has quite a bit more game than an "average top 30 player".
 

jmsx521

Hall of Fame
I was about to post How long before someone puts Tsonga on their avatar's picture... and I see above iradical18 already's done it.
 

TennezSport

Hall of Fame
This gets the award for most ridiculous statement in this thread and we all know the competition has been tough. Only you or someone totally biased against Nadal can say he is an average top 30 player on hardcourts, that´s simply ridiculous and ignorant. He was the 3rd best player on hardcourts last year (see ranking points). He has won 3 Masters Series on hardcourts and also played 2 finals, semifinals in the AO and QF in the USO. You´re the one who needs to face the facts and stop trolling after a semifinal loss in a major. Thanks.

-Zaragoza-
I am glad that you think so, but facts are facts and attacking me will not change them. As for tough competition, that's total BS and you know it. Look at my posts and you will see I am not biased against any player. I have stated it several times that I admire Rafa's heart and determination.

If you knew more about tennis then you would know that ranking points do not tell the entire story. Almost all of Rafaf's point come from the Clay court events and nothing more. If we were to take the ranking point from all of the HC tournys Rafa has played, you would see a very different view.

It's time to take off the rosey glasses and look the truth square in the eyes. OK, you can squint a little :)

TennezSport :cool:
 

VoodooChild24

Semi-Pro
I think we should all give Nadal a break, just for tonight.

We can pick apart his game ad nauseum, but he was simply outplayed by a player on fire. He could have made better adjustments, he could have made the score a little closer, but in the end, if Tsonga played like this, he was going to lose, as would anyone.

I'm not even a Nadal fan. I just don't see this as a career defining (or derailing) loss. It happens. It was one of those "too good" days.
I applaud this post bluetrain. Tsonga was on FIRE that I think whoever played him that day had no chance. He literally walked on water esp with those volleys.

Great attitude as well after he won. He kept his feet on the ground and gave the world #2 some respect.

If he can play like this in the final, it will be hard to stop him.
 

Zaragoza

Banned
I am glad that you think so, but facts are facts and attacking me will not change them. As for tough competition, that's total BS and you know it. Look at my posts and you will see I am not biased against any player. I have stated it several times that I admire Rafa's heart and determination.

If you knew more about tennis then you would know that ranking points do not tell the entire story. Almost all of Rafaf's point come from the Clay court events and nothing more. If we were to take the ranking point from all of the HC tournys Rafa has played, you would see a very different view.

It's time to take off the rosey glasses and look the truth square in the eyes. OK, you can squint a little :)

TennezSport :cool:
Yes, facts and facts and your trollish posts will not change them.
Average top 30 player on hardcourts, lol. My aunt has never watched tennis but just looking at the results she probably knows more about tennis than you. Not only that but you keep making dumb statements and saying "if you knew more about tennis". Honestly I think you´re a lost cause.
He is the current Wimbledon finalist, AO semifinalist, Masters Cup semifinalist, Indian Wells champion and Paris finalist.
Look at his results on hardcourts last year and you will see he was overall the 3rd best on the surface and the 2nd best on grass.
Yes you can take off your sun glasses and stop making dumb statements and analysis that not even the average 6 year old kid would make.
 
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M

Morrissey

Guest
To the moron who said that Nadal is a top 30 player on hardcourt, he was the only player in 2007 to win 30 matches on clay and 30 matches on hardcourt. So go chew on that.

Nadal (Hard) 32-12
Nadal (Clay) 31-1

Fed (Hard) 39-6
Fed (Clay) 16-3
 

VoodooChild24

Semi-Pro
To the moron who said that Nadal is a top 30 player on hardcourt, he was the only player in 2007 to win 30 matches on clay and 30 matches on hardcourt. So go chew on that.

Nadal (Hard) 32-12
Nadal (Clay) 31-1

Fed (Hard) 39-6
Fed (Clay) 16-3
Agreed. There is just so much hate for Nadal in this forum. People in this forum wishes he gets upset on every hard court match he plays.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
I am glad that you think so, but facts are facts and attacking me will not change them. As for tough competition, that's total BS and you know it. Look at my posts and you will see I am not biased against any player. I have stated it several times that I admire Rafa's heart and determination.

If you knew more about tennis then you would know that ranking points do not tell the entire story. Almost all of Rafaf's point come from the Clay court events and nothing more. If we were to take the ranking point from all of the HC tournys Rafa has played, you would see a very different view.

It's time to take off the rosey glasses and look the truth square in the eyes. OK, you can squint a little :)

TennezSport :cool:
Strongly disagree with you.Take away all of Nadal's points on clay and he would still be #3 or #4,of the top of my head in 2007 I remember Nadal having QF at the AO,Indian Wells title,Miami QF,Wimbledon final(and no I do not consider it to be green clay,it is still faster that the AO IMO),Montreal SF,Paris F and TMC semifinal.
Saying that Nadal is only a top 30 hardcourt player when the only players who won more points on hardcourt are Federer and Djokovic is ridicilous and I'm not a Nadal fan at all.
 
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