Nadal's 2017, WTFs and YE #1

abmk

Bionic Poster
but that, assuming its true, doesn't negate that the only 'big' final Federer has skipped is the WTF.
what do you mean assuming its true ?
Basically you are acknowledging you are an ignoramus by not knowing that Federer played through injury in YEC 2005.
He barely recovered in time for the event. was on and off. and in the final, he was affected after going up 2 sets to love. (2 TBs)

Federer withdrew in between in Paris Masters due to back injury in 2008. But played in the YEC anyways. Played through back pain in the Murray match, taking MTO as well to get treatment.

He skipped the YEC 2014 final vs Djokovic because he got injured in the 3rd set breaker vs Stan and couldn't recover in time.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
you are a humungous moron if you really think Federer values Canada more than the YEC.
He tweaked his back in the Canada final in the 2nd set.
wrong, his back was a concern before Canada. either way he chose to continue the final regardless of when the condition became more acute.

again, the point is, the only 'big' final he has ever skipped is the WTF!

which says a lot regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
you are a humungous moron if you really think Federer values Canada more than the YEC.
He tweaked his back in the Canada final in the 2nd set.
wrong, his back was a concern before Canada. either way he chose to continue the final regardless of when the condition became more acute.

again, the point is, the only 'big' final he has ever skipped is the WTF!

which says a lot regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not.
what do you mean assuming its true ?
Basically you are acknowledging you are an ignoramus by not knowing that Federer played through injury in YEC 2005.
He barely recovered in time for the event. was on and off. and in the final, he was affected after going up 2 sets to love. (2 TBs)

Federer withdrew in between in Paris Masters due to back injury in 2008. But played in the YEC anyways. Played through back pain in the Murray match, taking MTO as well to get treatment.

He skipped the YEC 2014 final vs Djokovic because he got injured in the 3rd set breaker vs Stan and couldn't recover in time.
sorry, but all of Federer's musings and choices are not etched in my brain the way they are in yours :rolleyes:, you are the one that idolizes him!

anyway, regardless of your excuses, Federer skipped a 'big' final only once and that was at the WTF.

time to start dealing...
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
wrong, his back was a concern before Canada. either way he chose to continue the final regardless of when the condition became more acute.
who says his back was an issue before Canada ?
His back was fine during Wimbledon.
If he had developed a back problem in between Wimbledon and Canada, he'd have skipped Canada.
He's skipped it in 2005, 2013 due to injury.
2012 due to tight schedule of Canada, Olympics and CIncy before US Open.
2015 -- because he didn't want to participate.



again, the point is, the only 'big' final he has ever skipped is the WTF!

which says a lot regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not.
again, another dumb evaluation of yours, already refuted in post #151.
 

Polvorin

Professional
wrong, his back was a concern before Canada. either way he chose to continue the final regardless of when the condition became more acute.

again, the point is, the only 'big' final he has ever skipped is the WTF!

which says a lot regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not.
All that suggests is how bad his back must have been for that particular match, that he felt unable to compete. It says nothing of the WTF.

I'm not sure why you would be so desperate to downplay the significance of the WTF. Could it be because Rafa has never won it?
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
wrong, his back was a concern before Canada. either way he chose to continue the final regardless of when the condition became more acute.

again, the point is, the only 'big' final he has ever skipped is the WTF!

which says a lot regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not.

sorry, but all of Federer's musings and choices are not etched in my brain the way they are in yours :rolleyes:, you are the one that idolizes him!

anyway, regardless of your excuses, Federer skipped a 'big' final only once and that was at the WTF.

time to start dealing...
I'm not talking about musings , you ignoramus.
I'm talking about what happened during those events.
When you don't know what happened at the YECs, don't make yourself look a much bigger fool than you are by talking about it.
Federer choose to play through injury/pain in YEC 05/YEC 08 because the YEC mattered very highly to him.
He just couldn't recover in time for the YEC 14 final.
Like I said before >> you are sh*t clueless about the YEC, its importance ...even in the recent years, let alone before 2000 or so.

Djokovic has retired due to injury at 3 of the 4 slams.
Nadal has retired due to injury in AO 10 QF. He withdrew after 2R from RG 16 due to injury.
It does not mean they don't value these events highly. It means they couldn't compete due to injury.
 
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DRII

G.O.A.T.
All that suggests is how bad his back must have been for that particular match, that he felt unable to compete. It says nothing of the WTF.

I'm not sure why you would be so desperate to downplay the significance of the WTF. Could it be because Rafa has never won it?
Federer has never, and would never skip a 'big' final. yet he did at the WTF. nothing else has to be said.
 

pame

Hall of Fame
All that suggests is how bad his back must have been for that particular match, that he felt unable to compete. It says nothing of the WTF.

I'm not sure why you would be so desperate to downplay the significance of the WTF. Could it be because Rafa has never won it?
Polvorin, seems DRII is on a one-man mission to single-handedly discredit Occam's Razor. His reading of Fed's WTF withdrawal is so outre that he'd put a pretzel to shame. :D
 

Polvorin

Professional
Federer has never, and would never skip a 'big' final. yet he did at the WTF. nothing else has to be said.
You may have noticed Fed doesn't get injured very often... He hasn't withdrawn from matches in 250's or 500's or matches in earlier rounds of bigger events either. Not because those matches are of greater importance, but simply because he doesn't get injured much.
 
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After this debate I am eagerly awaiting for Nadal to win the WTF (and think that some of the defenders of the "WTF is insignificant" will actually root against him, just to keep having a purpose), so:



:cool:
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Federer has never, and would never skip a 'big' final. yet he did at the WTF. nothing else has to be said.
I know this has decsended into the usual argument about the merits of the wtf. Obviously you don't rate it and maybe some players dont, but Federer is not one of them. Like I said he gave up on chasing number one which would have seen him equal Pete Sampras's 6 year end number ones to concentrate on the WTF. It's an event he's won 6 times, he values it a lot. To be honest even if it didn't carry a lot of points he'd probably still value it a lot as it's one of his most successful events and has given him many victories over top players. Surely that's easy to see. He also values Basel and Halle though they are only 500s (most of his Halle titles were 250 level) He played Halle instead of Paris because it's important to him and an event he's won many times. So we can argue about what the wtf is worth but in terms of what Federer thinks of it, he obviously rates it highly, just as Nadal rates Barca highly. Of course the WTF is worth more points than any of these events and has a better draw usually but that's another matter.

The fact that he withdrew from the final once doesn't say much as it's an isolated incident. If he'd done that several times in 250s then maybe you could say well he does this for events that he doesn't care about, so that proves he rates this low as well. As it's only ever happened one time in ANY event, it's just an isolated incident that just so happened to be at that tournament. You can say you doubt he would have pulled out anywhere else but that's speculation. Canada is a different kettle of fish for several reasons including when the injury took place (in Canada he'd already started the match, in London he was injured before hand) the severity of the injury (we can't know how bad it was in London) the opponent (Djokovic was much harder than Zverev) the fact he had Davis cup coming up and he didn't want to let his team down for the sake of taking a beating on court in a pointless display.

This is also another factor, maybe Federer didn't actually want to take a beating in an event that was one of "his" events. He was the king with 6 titles. Why go out and get humilated there? Nadal to my knowledge has never withdrawn in a slam before a match, but he did at RG last year. He'd never decided he couldn't go on court and try to win a match and see if his body would allow him. Only time was at RG. Does that speak for what he thinks about RG? Or maybe he just didn't want to get beaten in a place he owned only because he was not 100%? because he knew he had too much pride to lose somewhere special to him just because his body was not in a fit state?

Federer pulled out of Paris masters before a match in 2008, the fact that this was an earlier round and the WTF was a final doesn't really matter if you accept the idea that Federer knew there was no possible way he could win in his condition. If there's no chance he could win, why would he contest the final and injure himself more? And this has been the only time he''s been in that bad a shape before a final.
 
The prestige of the WTF cannot be questioned by yesteryear's chickens.

It is a tournament that continues to gather the creme de la creme of the tennis world and will continue to do so regardless of opinions and agendas.

:cool:
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
what do you mean assuming its true ?
Basically you are acknowledging you are an ignoramus by not knowing that Federer played through injury in YEC 2005.
He barely recovered in time for the event. was on and off. and in the final, he was affected after going up 2 sets to love. (2 TBs)

Federer withdrew in between in Paris Masters due to back injury in 2008. But played in the YEC anyways. Played through back pain in the Murray match, taking MTO as well to get treatment.

He skipped the YEC 2014 final vs Djokovic because he got injured in the 3rd set breaker vs Stan and couldn't recover in time.
Sounds just like how Nadal's knee got injured in the Dimitrov match but he decided to play through injury...
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
I'm not talking about musings , you ignoramus.
I'm talking about what happened during those events.
When you don't know what happened at the YECs, don't make yourself look a much bigger fool than you are by talking about it.
Federer choose to play through injury/pain in YEC 05/YEC 08 because the YEC mattered very highly to him.
He just couldn't recover in time for the YEC 14 final.
Like I said before >> you are sh*t clueless about the YEC, its importance ...even in the recent years, let alone before 2000 or so.

Djokovic has retired due to injury at 3 of the 4 slams.
Nadal has retired due to injury in AO 10 QF. He withdrew after 2R from RG 16 due to injury.
It does not mean they don't value these events highly. It means they couldn't compete due to injury.
first off, cease with your personal attacks. i'm not accepting such behavior anymore since moods are threatening mostly Nadal fans with banning if they respond in kind to such language as you are using in this exchange. if it were a true free-for-all i wouldn't care about your salty words, since its not i may actually have to report abuse. which i think is ridiculous but it looks like i'm beginning to have no other choice.

second, your excuses really make no difference! i'll repeat; the only 'big' final Federer has ever completely skipped/defaulted on was at the WTF. period, point, blank. that is not the same as skipping an event due to injury or retiring in an early round because of the same. with a 'big' final, you show up as long as you're not dying! because you have no idea what might happen, what chances might come up that could mitigate your condition and its consequences.

nothing else really needs to be said. no amount of minute details, which you are known for raising, changes that simple fact. the conclusion i've drawn from it, mainly that the WTF is certainly not the 5th most important event in tennis, is completely reasonable.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
because he was injured.
would you go hobbling on one leg and play the final hobbling just because it was a big final ? :rolleyes:
yes absolutely!
And Federer has never, and would never skip a Grand Slam if healthy. yet he skipped the FO this year. Hmm...
you do realize you contradicted your own post, correct?

anyway, there is a distinct difference from skipping an entire event due to physical concerns vs skipping the final of an event you have been playing.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
I know this has decsended into the usual argument about the merits of the wtf. Obviously you don't rate it and maybe some players dont, but Federer is not one of them. Like I said he gave up on chasing number one which would have seen him equal Pete Sampras's 6 year end number ones to concentrate on the WTF. It's an event he's won 6 times, he values it a lot. To be honest even if it didn't carry a lot of points he'd probably still value it a lot as it's one of his most successful events and has given him many victories over top players. Surely that's easy to see. He also values Basel and Halle though they are only 500s (most of his Halle titles were 250 level) He played Halle instead of Paris because it's important to him and an event he's won many times. So we can argue about what the wtf is worth but in terms of what Federer thinks of it, he obviously rates it highly, just as Nadal rates Barca highly. Of course the WTF is worth more points than any of these events and has a better draw usually but that's another matter.

The fact that he withdrew from the final once doesn't say much as it's an isolated incident. If he'd done that several times in 250s then maybe you could say well he does this for events that he doesn't care about, so that proves he rates this low as well. As it's only ever happened one time in ANY event, it's just an isolated incident that just so happened to be at that tournament. You can say you doubt he would have pulled out anywhere else but that's speculation. Canada is a different kettle of fish for several reasons including when the injury took place (in Canada he'd already started the match, in London he was injured before hand) the severity of the injury (we can't know how bad it was in London) the opponent (Djokovic was much harder than Zverev) the fact he had Davis cup coming up and he didn't want to let his team down for the sake of taking a beating on court in a pointless display.

This is also another factor, maybe Federer didn't actually want to take a beating in an event that was one of "his" events. He was the king with 6 titles. Why go out and get humilated there? Nadal to my knowledge has never withdrawn in a slam before a match, but he did at RG last year. He'd never decided he couldn't go on court and try to win a match and see if his body would allow him. Only time was at RG. Does that speak for what he thinks about RG? Or maybe he just didn't want to get beaten in a place he owned only because he was not 100%? because he knew he had too much pride to lose somewhere special to him just because his body was not in a fit state?

Federer pulled out of Paris masters before a match in 2008, the fact that this was an earlier round and the WTF was a final doesn't really matter if you accept the idea that Federer knew there was no possible way he could win in his condition. If there's no chance he could win, why would he contest the final and injure himself more? And this has been the only time he''s been in that bad a shape before a final.
perfectly reasonable post. i just happen to disagree with your ultimate conclusions.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
first off, cease with your personal attacks. i'm not accepting such behavior anymore since moods are threatening mostly Nadal fans with banning if they respond in kind to such language as you are using in this exchange. if it were a true free-for-all i wouldn't care about your salty words, since its not i may actually have to report abuse. which i think is ridiculous but it looks like i'm beginning to have no other choice.
no, they are only banning the same nadal troll who is creating multiple accounts again and again.
those aren't salty words. those are harsh, accurate words describing what you are posting. Anyways moving on from that and just addressing the content

second, your excuses really make no difference! i'll repeat; the only 'big' final Federer has ever completely skipped/defaulted on was at the WTF. period, point, blank. that is not the same as skipping an event due to injury or retiring in an early round because of the same. with a 'big' final, you show up as long as you're not dying! because you have no idea what might happen, what chances might come up that could mitigate your condition and its consequences.
or you are just being stubborn not to accept the reality that federer was injured to an extent that he couldn't play.

no idea what might happen ?
he was already in pain and couldn't recover in time...he could've ended up in far more pain and made his injury much worse >>> that's what could happen.

nothing else really needs to be said. no amount of minute details, which you are known for raising, changes that simple fact. the conclusion i've drawn from it, mainly that the WTF is certainly not the 5th most important event in tennis, is completely reasonable.
minute details ? those are details regarding the same player playing through the YEC injured in 2005,08.
Just that it was too severe to do so in 14.

Your conclusion is utterly rubbish. It ignores 3 things -- federer was pretty badly injured such that he could not play in the 2014 YEC final, that when he could tolerate some pain/injury, he actually did that and played the YEC -- in 05 and 08. those are not minute details
Those are big details - somewhat similar situations - playing in the tournament - YEC - through pain. Obviously details you didn't know about and don't bother about now, because you didn't bother and now you are in complete and utter denial here.

Just the pain was higher in YEC 14 and he couldn't recover in time for the final.
 
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The Fedfather

Hall of Fame
you do realize you contradicted your own post, correct?

anyway, there is a distinct difference from skipping an entire event due to physical concerns vs skipping the final of an event you have been playing.
Did I? I simply used the exact same logic as you did. Hopefully now you understand that your reasoning makes no sense.

There isn't when you're skipping the final of an event you have been playing due to physical concerns. If we are to have a meaningful debate you need to stop using BS tactics of omitting important details and making dogmatic statements.
 

timnz

Legend
We also saw Fed with a broken back attempt to play through the pain in a 5 set loss in 2005 WTF final. But things change when you are 32 I suppose.
Yes things change when you get older- he was 33 not 32. If you saw Federer coming onto the court and explaining in 2014 (not 2012) that he had done everything he could do to get ready but it just wasn't possible due to the injury. Also Federer didn't get treatment for his back in 2005, it was for his thigh. See this account:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rer-vs-nalbandian-2005-atp-tennis-masters-cup
 

timnz

Legend
We also saw Fed with a broken back attempt to play through the pain in a 5 set loss in 2005 WTF final. But things change when you are 32 I suppose.
Yes things change when you get older- he was 33 not 32. If you saw Federer coming onto the court and explaining in 2014 (not 2012) that he had done everything he could do to get ready but it just wasn't possible due to the injury. Also Federer didn't get treatment for his back in 2005 it was his thigh:

Yes things change when you get older- he was 33 not 32. If you saw Federer coming onto the court and explaining in 2014 (not 2012) that he had done everything he could do to get ready but it just wasn't possible due to the injury. Also Federer didn't get treatment for his back in 2005, it was for his thigh. See this account:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rer-vs-nalbandian-2005-atp-tennis-masters-cup
 

Polvorin

Professional
Yes things change when you get older- he was 33 not 32. If you saw Federer coming onto the court and explaining in 2014 (not 2012) that he had done everything he could do to get ready but it just wasn't possible due to the injury. Also Federer didn't get treatment for his back in 2005, it was for his thigh. See this account:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rer-vs-nalbandian-2005-atp-tennis-masters-cup
Ahh yes, I'm thinking of the Tour Finals in 2008 when he had the bad back but played through it. 2005 was an ankle injury? but he still played 5 sets on it, strange more people don't talk about what a warrior he was in his time.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Federer has never, and would never skip a 'big' final. yet he did at the WTF. nothing else has to be said.
To establish a frame of reference, it'd be advisable for you to demonstrate other instances where Federer was injured before a big final. How many are there? It's not as if Federer has been knackered enough times before a final for there to be a revelatory comparison.

YEC '05 is one such example, which has been mentioned already. Not only was Federer sporting an ankle brace all tournament, he was on crutches three weeks before the tournament began and couldn't run until a week before. He missed the entire fall season save for Bangkok, and fought his way through three deciding-set RR matches, then played a 4 1/2 hour final where he received treatment in the 5th.

Not the only time he was afflicted with injury during the YEC either, in 2008 he competed despite withdrawing from a match for the first time in his career a few weeks prior. Went an iffy 1-2 in the RR stages, with the final match being a gruelling three set affair against Murray where he saved 7 MP's and took an MTO.

It's logical to infer that Federer may have coveted a 7th YEC less than a first DC, which is why he withdrew from the final after sustaining an injury during the preceding match, especially if his chances of winning the former were so remote that it was sensible to hedge ones bets. However, everything you've extrapolated from that is pure fantasy. It's obvious that Federer values the YEC/WTF very much. If 2005 didn't convince you of that, I don't know what will.
 
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TheFifthSet

Legend
i'll repeat; the only 'big' final Federer has ever completely skipped/defaulted on was at the WTF. period, point, blank. that is not the same as skipping an event due to injury or retiring in an early round because of the same. with a 'big' final, you show up as long as you're not dying! because you have no idea what might happen, what chances might come up that could mitigate your condition and its consequences.

nothing else really needs to be said. no amount of minute details, which you are known for raising, changes that simple fact. the conclusion i've drawn from it, mainly that the WTF is certainly not the 5th most important event in tennis, is completely reasonable.
Acting like a subject isn't open to interpretation (when it is) by doubling down on a facile argument that has been refuted already is such an adorable way for somebody to get cornered.

"no, I won't counter the salient points you brought up because [REPEAT THE VERY THING THAT WAS ALREADY PAINSTAKINGLY ADDRESSED BUT WITH MORE CONVICTION] haha 'nuff sed"

Lol, you've known you were wrong the last few pages. C'maan. It's too obvious.
 
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DRII

G.O.A.T.
Well not everybody is either a) as silly as you are or b) as dishonest in claiming you would do that
and no one would ever mistake you for a champion!

you always show up, if you are physically able (not able to play your best tennis but just able to walk out on court), for a big final like that of a slam.

you never know what may happen even if you are physical impaired. you at least go out there and give it a try and then retire if necessary.

look at this year's Wimbledon final! Cilic collapsed and had an emotional breakdown. you never know what your opponent is dealing with.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
To establish a frame of reference, it'd be advisable for you to demonstrate other instances where Federer was injured before a big final. How many are there? It's not as if Federer has been knackered enough times before a final for there to be a revelatory comparison.

YEC '05 is one such example, which has been mentioned already. Not only was Federer sporting an ankle brace all tournament, he was on crutches three weeks before the tournament began and couldn't run until a week before. He missed the entire fall season save for Bangkok, and fought his way through three deciding-set RR matches, then played a 4 1/2 hour final where he received treatment in the 5th.

Not the only time he was afflicted with injury during the YEC either, in 2008 he competed despite withdrawing from a match for the first time in his career a few weeks prior. Went an iffy 1-2 in the RR stages, with the final match being a gruelling three set affair against Murray where he saved 7 MP's and took an MTO.

It's logical to infer that Federer may have coveted a 7th YEC less than a first DC, which is why he withdrew from the final after sustaining an injury during the preceding match, especially if his chances of winning the former were so remote that it was sensible to hedge ones bets. However, everything you've extrapolated from that is pure fantasy. It's obvious that Federer values the YEC/WTF very much. If 2005 didn't convince you of that, I don't know what will.
he values it to the point that he skipped/defaulted a final.

he has not done that in any slam final (and would never).

no matter how much you and others refute actual facts, that fact remains the same. and certainly less conjecture is required for me to reach my conclusion (from that fact) than it is for you to construct yours.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
he values it to the point that he skipped/defaulted a final.

he has not done that in any slam final (and would never).

no matter how much you and others refute actual facts, that fact remains the same. and certainly less conjecture is required for me to reach my conclusion (from that fact) than it is for you to construct yours.

He values it enough to play on a bum ankle, after skipping the rest of the fall season and being on crutches mere weeks before the tournament began, and not being able to run until about 7/8 days before.


In sum, every single thing in your post was refuted. Let that be stated for posterity. Precisely the regurgitation act I alluded to here:

Acting like a subject isn't open to interpretation (when it is) by doubling down on a facile argument that has been refuted already is such an adorable way for somebody to get cornered.

"no, I won't counter the salient points you brought up because [REPEAT THE VERY THING THAT WAS ALREADY PAINSTAKINGLY ADDRESSED BUT WITH MORE CONVICTION] haha 'nuff sed"

Lol, you've known you were wrong the last few pages. C'maan. It's too obvious.
And, once more, every single claim you've made addressed here:


To establish a frame of reference, it'd be advisable for you to demonstrate other instances where Federer was injured before a big final. How many are there? It's not as if Federer has been knackered enough times before a final for there to be a revelatory comparison.

YEC '05 is one such example, which has been mentioned already. Not only was Federer sporting an ankle brace all tournament, he was on crutches three weeks before the tournament began and couldn't run until a week before. He missed the entire fall season save for Bangkok, and fought his way through three deciding-set RR matches, then played a 4 1/2 hour final where he received treatment in the 5th.

Not the only time he was afflicted with injury during the YEC either, in 2008 he competed despite withdrawing from a match for the first time in his career a few weeks prior. Went an iffy 1-2 in the RR stages, with the final match being a gruelling three set affair against Murray where he saved 7 MP's and took an MTO.

It's logical to infer that Federer may have coveted a 7th YEC less than a first DC, which is why he withdrew from the final after sustaining an injury during the preceding match, especially if his chances of winning the former were so remote that it was sensible to hedge ones bets. However, everything you've extrapolated from that is pure fantasy. It's obvious that Federer values the YEC/WTF very much. If 2005 didn't convince you of that, I don't know what will.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
he values it to the point that he skipped/defaulted a final.

he has not done that in any slam final (and would never).

no matter how much you and others refute actual facts, that fact remains the same. and certainly less conjecture is required for me to reach my conclusion (from that fact) than it is for you to construct yours.
He was injured... why would he play injured? Fed knows his body better than you do...
 
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