Nadal's inability to beat Djokovic in 2011

robthai

robthai

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Was it because Djokovic reached a level so high that peak Nadal could not match? I say peak Nadal because he was playing at a similar level to 2010 which is his best ever season. Was it purely a mental issue with Nadal given his victories over Djokovic in 2012 as proof? I'm not sure what to make of it. re watched the Rome final in 2011 and have come to the conclusion that Djokovic was just to good and if both were at their peaks then Djokovic would win most of the time. Problem is that I don't think Djokovic has ever reached that level he was at from Jan-June in 2011. 2015-2016 is so overrated compared to his 2011 level because in 2011 the tour was ripe and there wasn't a lost generation of players like we have now.
 
US Open 2011 Djokovic would have beaten 2013 US open Nadal. 2010 is a coin toss. Come to think of it, all of Nadals 3 Us open wins a relatively weak. Ironically his best run to the final was in 2011 but Djokovic was just at a much higher level in that final compared to 2010 and 2013. All credit to Rafa though, not hating.
 
Djokovic is not good match up for Nadal.I think this is one of the reason why Nadal have never defeated him when Novak was at its best.
 
I think Rafa was better in 2010 at the US Open. But yes, Djokovic displayed some of the best tennis ever in those nine months of 2011.
 
Plamen1234 said:
Djokovic is not good match up for Nadal.I think this is one of the reason why Nadal have never defeated him when Novak was at its best.
Click to expand...

Typical Nadal hater logic.

If Djokovic beats a healthy 25 years old Nadal in 2011, he was beating peak Nadal.

If Nadal beats a healthy 25 years old Djokovic in 2012, he was not beating peak Djokovic.

Double standard fallacy: "Judging two situations by different standards when, in fact, you should be using the same standard."
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/227/Double-Standard
 
Nadal beated peak Djokovic at US Open 2010, French Open 2012, French Open 2013 and US Open 2013.

Djokovic was already at his peak in the last months of 2010, it is not like he was not at his peak the 31th of December of 2010 and suddenly became at his peak the 1st of January of 2011.

And Djokovic was healthy and only 25 at the 2012 French Open. That is peak Djokovic, like it or not. The same applies to 26 years old Djokovic at the French Open 2013 and the US Open 2013.
 
Djokovic got robbed of two US Open in 2010 and 2013 because his opponent had an easy draw and was fresh in the final when Djokovic was running on fumes.
Umpire robbed him of another French Open in 2013.
 
Sport said:
Nadal beated peak Djokovic at US Open 2010, French Open 2012, French Open 2013 and US Open 2013.

Djokovic was already at his peak in the last months of 2010, it is not like he was not at his peak the 31th of December of 2010 and suddenly became at his peak the 1st of January of 2011.

And Djokovic was healthy and only 25 at the 2012 French Open. That is peak Djokovic, like it or not. The same applies to 26 years old Djokovic at the French Open 2013 and the US Open 2013.
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I saw Djokovic's body breaking down after USO 2011 and will not agree with you at all.
 
Sport said:
Typical Nadal hater logic.

If Djokovic beats a healthy 25 years old Nadal in 2011, he was beating peak Nadal.

If Nadal beats a healthy 25 years old Djokovic in 2012, he was not beating peak Djokovic.

Double standard fallacy: "Judging two situations by different standards when, in fact, you should be using the same standard."
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/227/Double-Standard
Click to expand...


I never said 2011 is Peak Nadal.And I believe Peak Djokovic was 2011 and 2015.It seems you believe different.
 
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A few reasons. I think the primary reason was that he shocked Nadal tbh. Nobody expected Djokovic's 2011 and that played a large part in his huge winning streak IMO. He's also Nadal's toughest match up. Or at least he was.

And a 3rd reason is that Nadal's first 2 defeats in 2011 to Djokovic at IW and Miami kind of set the tone for that match up in that particular year. Then that was further cemented when Djokovic beat him on clay twice. When those first 2 defeats happened and then the clay defeats followed it up it was a pretty safe bet that Djokovic wasn't going to lose to Nadal that year.

I don't think Djokovic played that much worse in 2012 than 2011 though. I just think more people got used to playing the improved Djokovic.

Also, this thread isn't a bad idea by any stretch, but it is dated. 7 years exactly and Djokovic is non existent on the tour right now.
 
robthai said:
US Open 2011 Djokovic would have beaten 2013 US open Nadal. 2010 is a coin toss. Come to think of it, all of Nadals 3 Us open wins a relatively weak. Ironically his best run to the final was in 2011 but Djokovic was just at a much higher level in that final compared to 2010 and 2013. All credit to Rafa though, not hating.
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Djokovic shouldn't have ever made it to the final, but that's another issue I suppose.
 
Yeah, Djokovic was operating on a very high level with supreme confidence, and as the year went along Rafa just struggled more and more and more (he is probably the ultimate and most extreme example of a confidence player) Rafa's game was not multi dimensional enough to compete with Novak when he was playing that well, and the things that he was doing were playing right into Djokovic's hands.

He couldn't bully his backhand the way he could Fed's, when confidence is shot the way that it was the forehand down the line that is so essential to success in the match up isn't there to help you along, he pounces on your non-weaponized serve with his legendary return, he feasts on your shorter balls, he loves the angles you provide him the opportunity to find by standing so far back, you can't hit through him with all that topspin, and he can go toe to toe with you defensively all day and all night.

So many of the improvements that Nadal has introduced into his game in the years since then were to counter Djokovic. Being closer to the baseline helps, feeding him junk helps, your forehand down the line helps, as does getting production off the backhand wing, as does hitting a (relatively) flatter ball.
 
Lots of insecurity and mindless pointless speculation, continuing the ad nauseam effect of every thread here being the same, everyday forever.
 
There was no insecurity at the begginning of 2011. Nadal was coming after his best season, after beating Djokovic at USO and WTF, with a great record against him and with a lot of confidence. He was getting outplayed from the very begginning. Even in their USO 11 and ao 12 finals, Djoko was the better player.
 
overall i believe nadal is a better player, more skilled, however you might qualify it. but during that stretch novak was simply dialed in and effectively neutralized nadal's advantages. you're not going to miss? i'll miss even less, and make it you that has to press the point. you pull me wide? i'll generate significant pace when stretched and pull the ball down the line. not to mention pressuring every service game with deep offensive returns.

it was a bad matchup against a player redlining at a level few guys can reach. and frankly i don't see him getting back to it because by all accounts it took everything out of him, physically and emotionally.

although he handed federer his fair share of defeats as well, fed's ability to mix things up played less into the metronomic efficiency of the djokovic game and at least made him have to improvise, took him a bit out of that deadly rhythm.
 
robthai said:
Was it because Djokovic reached a level so high that peak Nadal could not match? I say peak Nadal because he was playing at a similar level to 2010 which is his best ever season. Was it purely a mental issue with Nadal given his victories over Djokovic in 2012 as proof? I'm not sure what to make of it. re watched the Rome final in 2011 and have come to the conclusion that Djokovic was just to good and if both were at their peaks then Djokovic would win most of the time. Problem is that I don't think Djokovic has ever reached that level he was at from Jan-June in 2011. 2015-2016 is so overrated compared to his 2011 level because in 2011 the tour was ripe and there wasn't a lost generation of players like we have now.
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This is just so true. Nadal was in his peak from 2010-12 clay. But the 2011 Djoker is probably the greatest of all time. Djokovic at that level cannot be matched; although a zoning Federer pulled off the upset in RG, Djokovic could just out-fight him as he did in USO11. 15-16 Djokovic, as you said, was nowhere near that level. In 2011, he played Nadal peak for peak and won, but in 2012 Nadal came back and showed his best was still better. So it was a Nadal-Djok dominated tour, and when Nadal practically ceased to exist in 2015, Djokovic was the only one left and he made the best of it, kind of how Nadal is dominating now with no Djokovic to stop him.
 
Steve0904 said:
A few reasons. I think the primary reason was that he shocked Nadal tbh. Nobody expected Djokovic's 2011 and that played a large part in his huge winning streak IMO. He's also Nadal's toughest match up. Or at least he was.

And a 3rd reason is that Nadal's first 2 defeats in 2011 to Djokovic at IW and Miami kind of set the tone for that match up in that particular year. Then that was further cemented when Djokovic beat him on clay twice. When those first 2 defeats happened and then the clay defeats followed it up it was a pretty safe bet that Djokovic wasn't going to lose to Nadal that year.

I don't think Djokovic played that much worse in 2012 than 2011 though. I just think more people got used to playing the improved Djokovic.

Also, this thread isn't a bad idea by any stretch, but it is dated. 7 years exactly and Djokovic is non existent on the tour right now.
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Agree with your post except for the level of play in 2012 compared to 2011. He lost in succession to Federer in 2012, which included a bagel. Lost to Murray in USO and ended up with only 1 slam. His level in 2012 was definitely at a level tangibly lower than 2011. It would have been a herculean task to maintain 2011 level imho.
 
Sport said:
Typical Nadal hater logic.

If Djokovic beats a healthy 25 years old Nadal in 2011, he was beating peak Nadal.

If Nadal beats a healthy 25 years old Djokovic in 2012, he was not beating peak Djokovic.

Double standard fallacy: "Judging two situations by different standards when, in fact, you should be using the same standard."
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/227/Double-Standard
Click to expand...
I agree.

Don’t understand why in 2012 Djokovic suddenly exited his peak.

He played the same level as 2011 pretty much except:

- had a tougher Nadal on clay
- had a tougher Wimbledon opponent
- slightly lower level at USO than 2011
- better indoors in 2012
 
ATPtennisFan said:
Djokovic got robbed of two US Open in 2010 and 2013 because his opponent had an easy draw and was fresh in the final when Djokovic was running on fumes.
Umpire robbed him of another French Open in 2013.
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And who robbed Djokovic at the 2016 USO when he has like 3 walkovers/retirements and freaking Monfils in the semi?
 
robthai said:
Problem is that I don't think Djokovic has ever reached that level he was at from Jan-June in 2011. 2015-2016 is so overrated compared to his 2011 level because in 2011 the tour was ripe and there wasn't a lost generation of players like we have now.
Click to expand...

This is 100% true.

Djokovic's "dominance" in the 2014-2016 span was pretty much solely a function of Nadal and Federer losing a step.

Once Djokovic lost the same step he was right back where he belonged: third among those 3. There is a reason why in June 2014 Djokovic had only 6 Majors compared to Nadal's 14 and Fed's 17.
 
I agree that 2011 was ND’s highest level. The tour has weakened over the years. The eye test is conclusive in this regard I think. Just watch videos from 2011 and compare them to 2016. 2011 ND was a god and you felt he could do anything with the ball. Similar to peak Fed. The only good thing about 2015/2016 ND is that he came to the net more, under guidance of Becker. But not sure if that really helped him that much in the end.
 
Sport said:
Nadal beated peak Djokovic at US Open 2010, French Open 2012, French Open 2013 and US Open 2013.

Djokovic was already at his peak in the last months of 2010, it is not like he was not at his peak the 31th of December of 2010 and suddenly became at his peak the 1st of January of 2011.

And Djokovic was healthy and only 25 at the 2012 French Open. That is peak Djokovic, like it or not. The same applies to 26 years old Djokovic at the French Open 2013 and the US Open 2013.
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Djoko was at his peak in 12, 13, but
Nope, djoko was not peak in uso 10. He won only one single tournament on his own after the us open.
One of the main catalysts for his transformation was the Serbia Davis Cup win at the end of the year. Also off-season training helps.

Hilarious that you say peak cannot arbirarily be at the start of 2011. Then how can it arbitrarily start at the US Open in 10 ? You do realize he had not beaten a single top 10 player until US open semi in 2010 ?

When do you think a peak period Starts for someone like novak?
A record like loses in USO, wins Beijing , loses Shanghai, loses Basel, loses early in Paris and loses in the YEC or when he starts at friggin 40+ match streak ? (Along with time for off-season training)

The difference in level in September 10-end and in 2011 was also obvious from the eye-test.
 
Nadal inability to beat Djokovic was purely due to the mental advantage after the IW and Miami encounters. How do you explain Nadal taking Novak deep in 3 sets in both of those events and should have won when he was 2 points away in Miami to losing straight sets on clay where Nadal should have had the advantage. This was because of the momentum Djokovic was on and Nadal was mentally weak. Rafa even admitted in the US Open 2011 final that he was "scared" to play Nole before the final. Tennis-wise peak for peak, Rafa is every bit as good as Djokovic if not more explosive. Nadal was actually one of the only players who beat Nole post 2011 in majors consistently. Federer kept losing and Murray had no chance. Look at how Djokovic went on that rampage between 2015 and 2016 when Nadal was a non-factor. This isn't a coincidence. Yes, Djokovic is Rafa's most fierce rival but id say Djokovic hates playing Rafa at his best too. Make no mistake.
 
Athique Rehman said:
Nadal inability to beat Djokovic was purely due to the mental advantage after the IW and Miami encounters. How do you explain Nadal taking Novak deep in 3 sets in both of those events and should have won when he was 2 points away in Miami to losing straight sets on clay where Nadal should have had the advantage. This was because of the momentum Djokovic was on and Nadal was mentally weak. Rafa even admitted in the US Open 2011 final that he was "scared" to play Nole before the final. Tennis-wise peak for peak, Rafa is every bit as good as Djokovic if not more explosive. Nadal was actually one of the only players who beat Nole post 2011 in majors consistently. Federer kept losing and Murray had no chance. Look at how Djokovic went on that rampage between 2015 and 2016 when Nadal was a non-factor. This isn't a coincidence. Yes, Djokovic is Rafa's most fierce rival but id say Djokovic hates playing Rafa at his best too. Make no mistake.
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Federer defeated Djokovic in majors in 2011 and 2012. He did better than Nadal during those 2 years. Age simply got the better of him.

Of course Nadal did better since he was the same age as Djokovic.
 
KINGROGER said:
I agree.

Don’t understand why in 2012 Djokovic suddenly exited his peak.

He played the same level as 2011 pretty much except:

- had a tougher Nadal on clay
- had a tougher Wimbledon opponent
- slightly lower level at USO than 2011
- better indoors in 2012
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Return stats in 2011 were spectacular for a youngish Nole, but his serve was much, much better post 2011. The weaker serving in 2011 kind of hurts that year in my estimation. Still the ground game was something else in 2011 so you have to say Djokovic prime 2011-2016. Peak 2011, 2015, and first half of 2016. Djokovic was on absolute fire with the ground game in 2011; easily his peak ground game. 2015 was good in different ways, but takes the day for me with the better serving and much better 2nd serving under Becker. Just a more serve dominant and better player overall in 2015 into early 2016. Most think if not for Federer, Nole would have won 2011 RG as well (beat Nadal in the final).
 
Meles said:
Return stats in 2011 were spectacular for a youngish Nole, but his serve was much, much better post 2011. The weaker serving in 2011 kind of hurts that year in my estimation. Still the ground game was something else in 2011 so you have to say Djokovic prime 2011-2016. Peak 2011, 2015, and first half of 2016. Djokovic was on absolute fire with the ground game in 2011; easily his peak ground game. 2015 was good in different ways, but takes the day for me with the better serving and much better 2nd serving under Becker. Just a more serve dominant and better player overall in 2015 into early 2016. Most think if not for Federer, Nole would have won 2011 RG as well (beat Nadal in the final).
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What do the stats say about 2012 compared to 2011?
 
Athique Rehman said:
Nadal inability to beat Djokovic was purely due to the mental advantage after the IW and Miami encounters. How do you explain Nadal taking Novak deep in 3 sets in both of those events and should have won when he was 2 points away in Miami to losing straight sets on clay where Nadal should have had the advantage. This was because of the momentum Djokovic was on and Nadal was mentally weak. Rafa even admitted in the US Open 2011 final that he was "scared" to play Nole before the final. Tennis-wise peak for peak, Rafa is every bit as good as Djokovic if not more explosive. Nadal was actually one of the only players who beat Nole post 2011 in majors consistently. Federer kept losing and Murray had no chance. Look at how Djokovic went on that rampage between 2015 and 2016 when Nadal was a non-factor. This isn't a coincidence. Yes, Djokovic is Rafa's most fierce rival but id say Djokovic hates playing Rafa at his best too. Make no mistake.
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I like this.:rolleyes: So much is head to head and luck of the draw. Its rare when you have a player who can wipe out everyone in the field at an event (Nadal on clay). Federer for his age did extremely well against Djokovic and one could argue he has/had an inherent matchup advantage.

I don't believe I saw Fed's triumph over Nole in 2011 RG and I need to watch that match. It was really hard to believe at the time given the run Djoko had had on clay.
 
Athique Rehman said:
Nadal inability to beat Djokovic was purely due to the mental advantage after the IW and Miami encounters. How do you explain Nadal taking Novak deep in 3 sets in both of those events and should have won when he was 2 points away in Miami to losing straight sets on clay where Nadal should have had the advantage. This was because of the momentum Djokovic was on and Nadal was mentally weak. Rafa even admitted in the US Open 2011 final that he was "scared" to play Nole before the final. Tennis-wise peak for peak, Rafa is every bit as good as Djokovic if not more explosive. Nadal was actually one of the only players who beat Nole post 2011 in majors consistently. Federer kept losing and Murray had no chance. Look at how Djokovic went on that rampage between 2015 and 2016 when Nadal was a non-factor. This isn't a coincidence. Yes, Djokovic is Rafa's most fierce rival but id say Djokovic hates playing Rafa at his best too. Make no mistake.
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Murray had no chance against Djokovic in post 2011 Majors? I would advise you to reflect on that statement very carefully before I am forced to comment on it! :cool:
 
KINGROGER said:
What do the stats say about 2012 compared to 2011?
Click to expand...
Points numbers:
Djokovic.png

2nd serve and return numbers to me are the best indication of general movement, so 46% of return points on hard courts clearly peak movement. The high 2nd serve points won on clay show better movement as well. Clay is less matches so a little more erratic. The 67% serve points won on hard courts in 2011 just not the best. Nole kind of fell apart after the US Open so maybe its not the best number on hard courts. One could argue the clay 2011 stats are inflated if Nadal was indeed off his game/intimidated. Nadal says he's afraid before a lot of matches, so not sure the Nole fear factor worth much when crunching the numbers. Maybe he might have made those matches closer, but hard to see him winning. Serves win majors so 2011 was really well done. Nadal in 2010 won 70.1% of his hard court serve points which is a whole lot better than Nole's 67%.:confused: However on hard courts Nadal only won 39% of his return points in 2010 which is why Djoko's 46% in 2011 is really something.
 
He reached a level where he was able to match Nadals game consistently. Also his FH became a much better shot wich he improved alot. The serve was not that great as it got later, but still he made some improvements compared to 2009-2010. Overall, Djokovic went from a great player, to a superstar player.

What people need to remember is that Even before 2011 he had a great BH wich could neutrilize Nadals shoulder height balls. Not just that, but overall game wise he was outdoing Nadal on HCs all the way up to 2011. Then 2011 happened, it was a Nole going from a #3 player in the world occasionally beating Nadal, to a #1 level of player capable of matching him on all surfaces.

On clay of course Nadal dominated Djokovic from 2006-2010, but ever since their first ever meeting happened on a HC in 2007, although not the same dominance as Nadal had over him on clay, Djokovic won 7 out of 12 encounters on HCs from 2007-2010 (on all kinds of conditions, he beat him in Miami, Cincinnati and indoors to name a few). So Djokovic was outdoing Nadal even back then before he got his superstar breakthrough, it's just that he made even more improvements in his game (like the FH, I also think the BH was at a much higher level aswell, it was unreal) but also mainly physically and mentally when 2011 came. That took Nadal by surprise and he basically had no answers to a game he already was having partly issues with before. It took more than a year for Nadal to adjust to him. I remember when Nadal said some time after AO 2012 (or if it was some time at the start of 2013 when he was looking back at the moments where he had major trouble with Djoko), he said he had figured out a way to start getting wins against Djokovic again. And he did, rivalry became more much more competitive.

So I wouldn't necessarily say Djokovic asserted his dominance over Nadal in 2011 cause his peak was that much higher than Nadals peak overall - IMO Nadal wasn't tactically ready for it. Djokovic surprised him with the improvements he made and Nadal wasn't prepared. Cause as I said, even before 2011 Djokovic was enjoying the match up outside clay, couple that with the superstar player Djokovic became, and you can understand that he was more than ready to take the crown away from Nadal. Then Nadal made it more balanced when he understood what he needed to do in order to beat him again.
 
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Meles said:
Points numbers:
Djokovic.png

2nd serve and return numbers to me are the best indication of general movement, so 46% of return points on hard courts clearly peak movement. The high 2nd serve points won on clay show better movement as well. Clay is less matches so a little more erratic. The 67% serve points won on hard courts in 2011 just not the best. Nole kind of fell apart after the US Open so maybe its not the best number on hard courts. One could argue the clay 2011 stats are inflated if Nadal was indeed off his game/intimidated. Nadal says he's afraid before a lot of matches, so not sure the Nole fear factor worth much when crunching the numbers. Maybe he might have made those matches closer, but hard to see him winning. Serves win majors so 2011 was really well done. Nadal in 2010 won 70.1% of his hard court serve points which is a whole lot better than Nole's 67%.:confused: However on hard courts Nadal only won 39% of his return points in 2010 which is why Djoko's 46% in 2011 is really something.
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Thanks. So judging by those numbers the big difference for me seems to be Nadal’s level in 2012 going up on clay.
 
robthai said:
Was it because Djokovic reached a level so high that peak Nadal could not match? I say peak Nadal because he was playing at a similar level to 2010 which is his best ever season. Was it purely a mental issue with Nadal given his victories over Djokovic in 2012 as proof? I'm not sure what to make of it. re watched the Rome final in 2011 and have come to the conclusion that Djokovic was just to good and if both were at their peaks then Djokovic would win most of the time. Problem is that I don't think Djokovic has ever reached that level he was at from Jan-June in 2011. 2015-2016 is so overrated compared to his 2011 level because in 2011 the tour was ripe and there wasn't a lost generation of players like we have now.
Click to expand...
Something to think about, losses to players other than Djokovic in 2010:

Roger Federer [SUI] d. Nadal
Jurgen Melzer [AUT] d. Nadal
Guillermo Garcia Lopez [ESP] d. Nadal
Marcos Baghdatis [CYP] d. Nadal
Andy Murray [GBR] d. Nadal
Feliciano Lopez [ESP] d. Nadal
Andy Roddick [USA] d. Nadal
Ivan Ljubicic [CRO] d. Nadal
Andy Murray [GBR] d. Nadal
Nikolay Davydenko [RUS] d. Nadal

Fed got him at the WTF. Murray knocked him out of the AO and Canada.

2011:

Roger Federer [SUI] d. Nadal
Jo Wilfried Tsonga [FRA] d. Nadal
Florian Mayer [GER] d. Nadal
Andy Murray [GBR] d. Nadal
Mardy Fish [USA] d. Nadal
Ivan Dodig [CRO] d. Nadal
Jo Wilfried Tsonga [FRA] d. Nadal
David Ferrer [ESP] d. Nadal
Nikolay Davydenko [RUS] d. Nadal

I'd say for sure that the elephant in the room was 2011 Djokovic.

But I would not conclude from this that peak Novak is better than peak Nadal. For me that's a bridge too far.
 
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