Nadal's indoors ATG position

El_Yotamo

Hall of Fame
Yep, he had some good runs in 2006, 2007, 2010 and 2013.In 2006-2007 courts were even faster and he still reached the SF.
Yeah, and there's also the often overlooked Madrid DC finals of 2019. He didn't face top players there but he played some pretty great stuff and didn't drop a set in singles. I think Madrid brings out some of the best versions of indoor Rafa, it's a shame they changed things after '08
 

beard

Legend
I mean, not to take anything away since it seems the OP is being genuine and not trolling, but this is sort of beating a dead horse. Yeah Nadal has been unsuccessful on indoor HC. Is it because of the surface itself (plus conditions), the timing in terms of the season, a mix of both? Probably a mix. Either way, I don't think any Nadal fan thinks their idol is an ATG on indoor hard, and if they do they're definitely in the minority there. For what it's worth he has shown a high level there a couple times albeit very sporadically but again the results aren't there for him. Case more or less closed, I think

(@TW Staff it'd be nice to have this emoji as well)
But, don't you think lack of indoor resume is big minus in his career? I think it's huge...
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
But, don't you think lack of indoor resume is big minus in his career? I think it's huge...
Indoors has a long historical tradition in tennis, from the old Pro tour to the WCT Finals (at one point gifting the biggest prize money in tennis) and later the ATP Finals. So yes it is absolutely a big minus that Nadal has failed there. Less significant than say Sampras' not winning the FO but it's certainly non-trivial when we consider AT in GOAT stands for "All Time".
 
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Rogerer

Rookie
Indoor is to Nadal as the US Open was to Borg. It's his kryptonite. He's never been able to get to grips with it, at all.

Look at his record against Federer, for example. For the first 14 years of their matches (until AO 2017) Federer won only 5 times in 27 outdoor meetings, but won 5 out of 6 indoors. That is an incredible disparity.

So Nadal was leading Federer 22-5 outdoors during their peak years but trailing 1-5 indoors. It boggles the mind.
Agree
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
What are Wilander's greatest achievements indoors? Yeah, I'm too lazy to research myself.

Yes - there's extraordinary disparity between his clay and indoors ATG status.
Mats won 3 indoor titles and was runner up 10x. 17-year-old Mats also took JMac to five sets and six hours in an epic DC rubber indoors in St. Louis. The match was played about a month after he won his first title, RG’82.

In total, Mats won 36 DC singles rubbers and contributed to 3 Swedish DC titles. I’m fairly confident that the Swedish climate and the DC format in the 1980s combined to dictate quite a few of the home ties be played indoors.
 

kevaninho

Hall of Fame
Yeah, Wilander has 3 indoors titles, beating McEnroe (indoors GOAT) on the way. It's like beating Rafa on clay - this should place Mats above Nadal indoors.
You do know that Nadal has beaten both Fed and Djokovic indoors, dont you?
 

El_Yotamo

Hall of Fame
So you can't simplify for me stupid?
A) his bad indoor resume is big minus in his career
B) his bad indoor resume is not big minus in his career

Just simple A or B...
I'm typically very happy to go in depth and explain things to people, however it seems you're only ever here to trash Nadal so I have no reason to entertain you. I more than respected the OP for example, or the Federer fan that replied to me, but with you it's quite a different case.

Btw, do you think throwing out insults is a way to get what you want from people? Because it definitely doesn't work that way with me
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Man I was trolling with Wilander you guys really are piling on Nadal lol. He at least owns wins over Djokovic and Federer indoors, I’m not sure Wilander ever beat Becker or Lendl etc. actually I’m certain he never beat Lendl indoors.

Put it this way - if the indoor tournament was held in April or September Nadal would be competitive. I think it is much more of a schedule timing issue than it is just a surface issue.

Nadal is a February (at best) to September player. He has never, even in his best years, been a top player from October-January. It just has never happened even in his peak and when he was in his best form. He’s from Manacor where the lowest temperature year round is like 60 degrees F lol. It makes sense.
I didn't mean this as a diss to Nadal and more like an observation. Wilander actually won 3 indoor titles and 1 Masters, like Nadal did at Madrid Masters on hardcourt. When you break it down though, they do have some similarities like more titles on clay than any other surface, but didn't mean that they are the same caliber of player since Nadal is clearly higher.
 

aldeayeah

Legend
Put it this way - if the indoor tournament was held in April or September Nadal would be competitive. I think it is much more of a schedule timing issue than it is just a surface issue.
Yeah this, he was owning everyone in Rotterdam 2009 until the Kneed@l Saga started.

Djokovic's disparity in AO vs USO performance can be similarly explained.
 

ArcspacE

Legend
Hey! @stringertom and I were just wondering where you were, now that Young Artiste is shining, and here you are :cool:

Spencer Gore is a tennis historian, who has been following tennis closely since the 1850s.
I've been around just haven't posted much - still follow the threads

Work has been crazy and hardly find the time
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
I didn't mean this as a diss to Nadal and more like an observation. Wilander actually won 3 indoor titles and 1 Masters, like Nadal did at Madrid Masters on hardcourt. When you break it down though, they do have some similarities like more titles on clay than any other surface, but didn't mean that they are the same caliber of player since Nadal is clearly higher.
So what you are saying is that Nadal is the Wilander of this era...well they were the two guys with multiple slams on every surface. :p

 

beard

Legend
I'm typically very happy to go in depth and explain things to people, however it seems you're only ever here to trash Nadal so I have no reason to entertain you. I more than respected the OP for example, or the Federer fan that replied to me, but with you it's quite a different case.

Btw, do you think throwing out insults is a way to get what you want from people? Because it definitely doesn't work that way with me
Ok, you wrote a lot words for someone who don't want to entertain me. Many words that say nothing... Again...
Have Insulted you? Don't know how...
 
Indoors is Nadal's worst scenario, but he has achieved quite a few things there still: 2 WTF finals, 1 Olympic Gold. Imagine if Soderling hadn't taken Nadal out at the FO in 09. Then Fed might have 0 French Opens. Would that affect his status as GOAT?
 

victorcruz

Hall of Fame
As an active Team Nadal member, I've trained myself to not give a damn about tennis indoors. That's my honesty right there :laughing:

But the truth is there is a lot of other sports going on at the time. Would I care more if Rafa was winning these events? Who knows, probably. But I didn't start getting alerts on my smartphone about Rafa matches beginning till last year i changed some settings. Does that make me a casual? No, I've trained myself to care more about slam matches.
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Wilander has a couple of titles indoors but not many, think a few in Belgium, beat McEnroe there.

He probably is the closest to Nadal though of anyone who won at least 6 slams. Everyone else ranks above Nadal indoors. But there are plenty of players that are not ATG that are ahead overall to him, like Nalbandian, Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, Davydenko, Murray, Kuerten, Courier, Ivanisevic
Rafa is better than Roddick at indoor, winning Madrid, going into Paris final and then in couple of yec final and loosing to yec goat is better than winning 4 or 5 small trophies
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Rafa is better than Roddick at indoor, winning Madrid, going into Paris final and then in couple of yec final and loosing to yec goat is better than winning 4 or 5 small trophies
Roddick also lost several time to Federer at WTF, he even had MP against peak Federer in 2006 at TMC. For me, titles do matter, and overall Roddick's numbers are higher.
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Roddick also lost several time to Federer at WTF, he even had MP against peak Federer in 2006 at TMC. For me, titles do matter, and overall Roddick's numbers are higher.
The point is where is overall Roddick numbers, no indoors master final is biggest blot for him( mind you there was two indoor master for his peak career) just like no hc slam final for Nalbandian.
If Berdych can win one indoor master then there is no reason for Roddick for not to make a single final, even I am ready to forget about yec final.
I am already lowering the bar for Roddick, just asking him to make one final, not to win, just make it
 
If we talk about all time-not in TOP 200.Don t forget until open era there were wooden courts,far more carpet tournaments as well as indoors
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
The point is where is overall Roddick numbers, no indoors master final is biggest blot for him( mind you there was two indoor master for his peak career) just like no hc slam final for Nalbandian.
If Berdych can win one indoor master then there is no reason for Roddick for not to make a single final, even I am ready to forget about yec final.
I am already lowering the bar for Roddick, just asking him to make one final, not to win, just make it
Keep in mind that the title Nadal did win was in the absence of Federer in Madrid 2005, who had injured his ankle.

I personally cannot have one masters win over multiple San Jose and Memphis titles. Now had Nadal won in Marseille or Rotterdam during that post AO indoor season, I would give him the nod, but he didn't.
 
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NAS

Hall of Fame
Keep in mind that the title Nadal did win was in the absence of Federer in Madrid 2005, who had injured his ankle.

I personally cannot have one masters win over multiple San Jose and Memphis titles. Now had Nadal won in Marseille or Rotterdam during that post AO indoor season, I would give him the nod, but he didn't.
Not only his one master win but also Paris final and two yec final, I am not even talking about two Shanghai final, introduction of Shanghai doesn't mean anything to Andy as he was not capable to make Shanghai final but it took away some accomplishments from Rafa.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Not only his one master win but also Paris final and two yec final, I am not even talking about two Shanghai final, introduction of Shanghai doesn't mean anything to Andy as he was not capable to make Shanghai final but it took away some accomplishments from Rafa.
I can't give finals lost over actual titles won, when the gap in title wins is as big as it is between them. If it was closer, then yes, I would agree, but I believe Roddick has 4 San Jose titles and at least 2 in Memphis, that cannot be countered by a couple of runner up spots. Nadal needed at least one more title IMO, having just one title and a bunch of finals for me isn't going to do it.
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
I can't give finals lost over actual titles won, when the gap in title wins is as big as it is between them. If it was closer, then yes, I would agree, but I believe Roddick has 4 San Jose titles and at least 2 in Memphis, that cannot be countered by a couple of runner up spots. Nadal needed at least one more title IMO, having just one title and a bunch of finals for me isn't going to do it.
I think Rafa has 2 indoor title
 
Roddick has several San Jose and Memphis titles if I recall, he always had a solid season indoors following AO. It's still a better career than Nadal indoors.
Eh, I'm a Roddick fan and I don't know about that. The competition in those tournaments was hardly stellar.

Ned has a masters and a couple of YEC finals to his name at least.
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
Eh, I'm a Roddick fan and I don't know about that. The competition in those tournaments was hardly stellar.

Ned has a masters and a couple of YEC finals to his name at least.
We can agree to disagree for sure, but I saw most of the wins by Roddick, and he looked free flowing in those conditions.
 
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