Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Tambuyu, Aug 18, 2007.
I'm bit surprised no one talking about this....any news?
I wouldn't take Nadal's injuries too seriously. He is postitioning himself for the U.S. Open. A guy like Rafael, with his muscles and style, will always have aches and pains. Ligaments and tendons are taxed by his game and build. He is gearing up for a run at Flushing Meadows.
Sooner or later,with his playing style and forehand stroke,injury is not hard to come by.
I guess that's why no one's surprised.
Its the start of the break down..
He has one more year, two at most..
You dont think that anyone that puts that much effort into something can last all that long?.. Guga won 3 French Open's.. What happened to him?..
Effort alone wont make you a legend.. You have to have talent, and know how to show that talent with the least amount of effort involved..
Even I get worn out and tired from watching Nadal play... He has had it...
I think the Guga example is apt. Nevertheless, I think Nadal will be ok for Flushing. He is built like a HGH guy ( I don't think the ATP tests for this). Steroids build muscles, but not ligaments and tendons. HGH builds everything. My guess and hope is that Rafa is clean, but you can't play with his muscles and game without being very vulnerable to injuries. There is too much stress on the vulnerable points in his body.
Because I assume he is honest and clean, I fear that he will break down. Rafa is great fun to watch, and he and Federer create the Borg-McEnroe dynamic the ATP needs. I hope he is clean, stays healthy, and challenges Federer for several years, but doubt he can keep it up much longer.
I always felt Nadal was a time bomb just waiting to happen with a wrist injury. He has the most demanding style on the body I have seen.
They test for more things than you are apparantly aware of. Rafa is not on the juice....
i think it comes up in many threads - just not one dedicated to his injuries
HGH is almost impossible to test for. Cycling testing was always a few steps behind the latest biochemicals. The ATP does a very good job of testing, but illegal labs are still ahead of them.
Becker once accused Muster of being juiced, but could never prove his accusation. This made Becker look foolish to the tennis media. Nadal has mondo muscles; clean or not, he is taxing his body.
Best of luck to him, as I enjoy his great play.
HGH is not impossible to test for. As well, testing involves way more than just testing for the drug itself. Hematocrit levels, white/red blood cells, etc., that indicate things such as EPO and other performance enhancing drugs are tested. I was a top-ten amature cyclist for ten years and understand what they test for. They also test for masking substances used.
Labs are not ahead of the testers--what the testers lack is the frequency in which they test, etc. Look at Puerta, Canas, and Coria about the extensive testing in which the ATP delivers.
The thing I find most hilarious though, is that you look at Rafa with one big arm and call him a user. That claim is just unsubstantiated and poor in taste. Via your accusation--anyone and everyone with a ligament problem that hits a big ball is on the juice.
What´s exactly the relation between winning 3 French Open and being injured? It doesn´t make sense to me. Kuerten and Nadal are not even the same kind of player.
Look at what happened to Ferrero, Moya or Safin. Not as much effort as Nadal but they were not top players after 25. Muster, in the other hand played his best at 28-30.
And Nadal got a lot of talent .Too many people pay attention to his physical appearance and sleeveless shirts and they underrate his talent, not most of pro players and coaches though.
At the end, tennis is about hitting the ball with a racquet and you need a lot of talent to be a consistent world no. 2.
Yes, I would assume too that any player who was tested so many times and was never found guilty is clean. I don´t need to hope, guess or question it.
Muster was not a prodigy. He got knee injury, took quite some time off, and he avoided hardcourt as much as he could. In tennis term, he wasn't 28-30 when he was at that age. Similar like Agassi, he took so much time off during his career, at 35 he was equivalent like a 30-year-old in tennis term.
Well I guess if you say it enough at some point you will be right LOL
What a lot of people simply don't get is that the tennis players use "injuries" as an excuse to get more of a free card to do what they want, and to help explain their loses so that their egos are taken away.
I think Nadal can be at the top until at least 26-27. Barring serious injuries ala Safin/Ferrero/Haas.
Maybe, he didn't want to be there.....
i agree. it is easy to get an injury after losing the first set and trailing the 2nd set like 1-4 or 1-5. u can't say it is true or fake. because if it is true, injury prevented him from playing well. if it is fake, then be it. he played badly and wanted to get out of it early than later.
More like his ability to play 20+ tournaments per year with his game style and still recover year in and year out without having some sort of fatigue or major injury issue. Not saying that he does do it, but I don't think anyone plays as much as Nadal does other then Davydenko, but Davydenko plays completely different then him.
To ignore Nadal's physique, is like ignoring Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire, and Barry Bonds body-building frames in the late 90s. Just so you know, I personnaly don't care if a player juices or not. There is too big a gray area today, with personal trainers, dieticians, psychologists, etc. that all improve a players game/longevity. Are creatine/protein bars/ultimate vitamins not a form of performance enhancement? The users are always ahead of the testers....always....Leave Nadal alone and just enjoy his tennis for the 4-6 years or so he is dominant....he will break down, visit Mallorca for some "special" treatment, and then return in prime condition again and again...
You have got to be kidding me...creatine? Protein bars? You equate these with performance enhancers? You think Nadal returns to Mallorca to cheat? And if you think Nadal's "physique" is anywhere close to Bonds, or Sosa's or McGuire's I'd suggest a visit to the eye doctor. Just because someone is muscular in any way doesn't mean they became that way illegally. I get the feeling that many people judge what's "fit" by their own level of fitness, which , more often than not, is beyond poor.
Nadal is strong for a tennis player, and normal for a clean athlete. Case closed.
nadal has the talent , stamina and everything
Do I think his current injury is that big of a deal? No. Do I think the fact that he has had chronic injuries to his feet, knees and now his wrist over the last three years is a big deal? Absolutely. If Nadal even wants to be #1 in the world, he will have to win on hard courts. If he can do that in March but not in August and September he has a problem. I would be worried long term about the severity of these injuries, if they persist. For now though, I think Nadal is okay.
"HGH is not impossible to test for. As well, testing involves way more than just testing for the drug itself. Hematocrit levels, white/red blood cells, etc., that indicate things such as EPO and other performance enhancing drugs are tested. I was a top-ten amature cyclist for ten years and understand what they test for. They also test for masking substances used."
My point was that Rafa probably will break down because of his style and the forces he puts on ligaments and tendons. I then pointed out that HGH, which is extremely hard to test, can regenerate tendons and ligaments, unlike steroids. I hope that Nadal won the genetic lottery and plays until he's 35 with that game and build.
HERE IS A STORY ON HGH TESTING:
By Dick Patrick and Bob Nightengale, USA TODAY
If you don't test for it, they will use it.
That's the revelation provided by Jason Grimsley, the former Arizona Diamondbacks reliever who, according to federal agents, admitted to using human growth hormone and singled out players he accuses of using the banned performance-enhancing drug.
Major League Baseball doesn't test for HGH. The International Olympic Committee brags it has had an HGH test since before the 2004 Olympics, but that is semantics.
Yes, there is a blood test for HGH. But because antibodies necessary for the process are in such short supply, virtually no HGH testing is conducted. In addition, the test only detects HGH right after injection so it's impractical for in-competition testing. As a result, there never has been an HGH positive.
There have been just a couple hundred HGH tests, according to experts such as Christiane Ayotte, head of the Montreal Olympic-testing lab, and Gary Wadler, a physician and author who has advised the World Anti-Doping Agency.
"We know growth hormone is a problem," Ayotte said. "No sport is testing currently for HGH, because (the test) is not available. If the test kit was available, it would only be effective for out-of-competition testing."
Ayotte said MLB is taking a bad rap for its lack of HGH testing: "We can't accuse them for not testing for growth hormone when nobody is."
Blatantly tanked at Cincinatti.
As far as steroids go - he is not even that big, yeah he is muscular and quick to get around court but i played a high level of rugby with guys a lot bigger and some who were very fast over a longer distance than a court and they were not using!
It is just his build
I bungled your quote on the above post, Saram. sorry about that. Incidentally, steroids and HGH only build the muscles you use. If Nadal's muscles are mostly from tennis, it would make sense that he has a bigger left arm.
Modern Era your rethoric is not even worth copying. Its garbage.
Mike, can you be more specific. How can you tell Nadal is using HGH? What are the signs? Specifically what aspects of Nadal's physic or movement indicates, to you, that Nadal is using HGH?
I won't pretend. I fully admit to being a big Nadal fan. I am biased. there you have my disclaimer. I'll just make a few points.
1. Rafa is genetically blessed. So can see this in all the male members of his family.
2. These accusations seem to surface based on Nadal's physic. Well I am looking at James Blake right now. Is he juicing? His arms and butt are everybit as big.
3. Have you ever seen Nadal in person? He is thin.
4. Nadal is really no more cut than Verdasco, Lopez, Blake, Canas (ok, thats a bad example), Ferrer, Agassi.
5. How do you explain the tremendous difference in his right and left arm? Is he only appyling the HGH to the left arm? Cause it is way bigger.
I agree Nadal's playing style is brutal on his body. And as much as I hate to think about it, he will maybe have a short career. I hope not, but it is hard to deny the issues he already has at 21.
Also...Nadal did not tank his match this week. He was sick and cramping. He is leading the race, and for the first time, can see the #1 ranking. He wanted confidence going into NY. No way did he tank.
"HGH only build muscles that you use"
Mike how do you know this, and don't quote USA Today. My knowledge of steriods is that they build the specific muscle groups worked, but HGH is an overall enhancer, not body part specific. This is why HGH is perscribed, for example, to children with growth deficiencies.
Mike let me ask you this...why bring this up? What is your purpose of accusing Nadal of doping?
I don't think we should be accussing Nadal of that kind of cheating. However I will say this he has the "I must win at all costs, even if I have to bend the rules a little" attitude. I would definitely NOT go as far as to call him a juicer, time waster and someone who got or gets illegal coaching yes, but not a drug user.
Thing is though, if he works out a lot, and he clearly does then it would be par for the course to take steroids. Bruce Lee did it, Arnold Swarteneger, in fact if you look at the cover photo for any body building magazine almost all of them are on steroids. The thing about Bruce Lee is, he was light and incredibly well built, and is proof that if you know what you are doing steroids will help you, but not turn you into an elephant.
But I do not believe, nor will I ever say that Nadal is a drug user. I don't like Nadal, but I don't think even he would go that far to try and win a tennis match.
Please read my post more carefully. I guess and assume he is clean. My point was I think he will have problems with ligaments and tendons. HGH would be a useful and hard to test for drug in tennis, but I regret discussing it specifically regarding Nadal.
I know, this is not a think yourwe going to use in athletic sport. MAke sure you remember no athlete uses hgh in sport like tennis, it just slows you down. Dont ask em to explain in detail, take my word on it.
HGH is non detectabe, sorry mate.
Please explain this ? How does hgh which will increase number of muscle cells and not do anythign to hormone levels, red blood cells or whatever else you wrote here, how is it going to be found in once body ? I have extencive experience in bodybuilding and Im telling you friend, if you want to jusice up, you can shoot testosterone suspension like 12 hours before the competition, do a couple hour routine and then go to pee and be clean. Its just the ester which goes along with substance and its halflife in the body .
And the guys you mentioned were positive for asthma threating meds, clenbuterol, albuterol etc. Those which help you breath when you have asthma or help you inhale 30% more oxygen when you are healthy !
Rafa is a doubt for me because he has muscles at 17 which were liek 22 year old muscles. Remember the game he played - football game with prince albert of monace and schumacher and others, he was a young lad with a ton of muscles, but that is not the proove. It became doubt for me when he backed out of the winter tours and skipped aussie once or twice, dont remember, and then came back like a granate to claycourt season.
Ill edit this so theres no misunderstanding - I firmly believe hes a fighter and clean. And want to believe and hope and etc. Because of the personality ( although when blake gets to him, he is looking like a puppy .. ), but theres room for it if he wanted to do roids. Just that HGH is not what youd use if you are a tennis player, bone structure is changing, getting thicker. I know people who could not wear their wedding ring after a 3 mos cycle of hgh .. too tight. Hips also etc.
Very interesting post. Thank you for your insights.
Forgot to ask: Why does HGH slow an athlete down?
Well you get more weight. Look at the pro bodybuilders who stay on hgh for 10 - 11 months during a year. They tend to widen in every department, and their bones are just harder and they gain more weight, not only muscle ( which woudl speed them up, by all means ) but also bones - in bodybuilding it does nto matter, they only look bigger and they dont run arround the stage. But in tennis , its different. Cycling is also different - EPO being the fresh blood, which they use in the mid of tour the france , gives them nothign but freshness. Its as they are not in the 10th or 11th stage but 3rd or 4th stage. Plus elevated levels of testosterone mean they do tend to use testosterone with no ester - so called suspension - which just goes thru the bodybut helps it recover like 3 times faster.
Is the additional bone mass really significant in terms of performance? The additional weight can't amount to much. This being said, an easy way to spot lengthy users of HGH is increased hat size and shoe size as an adult.
Barring a pituitary problem, significant growth in these areas indicates a problem. American baseball player Barry Bonds' hat size and shoe size increased significantly in his thirties, leading to speculation of HGH use in addition to the speculation regarding designer steroids.
YOu are not slower just because of extra mass, but you know when your hips widen you lose agility, when your fingers get thick you loose feeling ( its not like a bat, this is tennis after all ) etc. Thats why Id ont think its suitable for other sports not this one.
Hey Rudy, the hemihypertrophy of his left arm is the most suspicious aspect of his physique. HGH and testosterone are systemic medications- that is they go everywhere in the body. If you exercise only muscle group like Nadal does when he trains 6 hours a day- basically his left arm enjoys the benefits of his Mallorcan juice more than his right arm (or any other body part for that matter). Have you ever seen a body builder/weightlifter/or other athlete of any discipline with the asymmetry Nadal has in his arms? I didn't think so. And please, when you pull words out of your a$%, at least us a dictionary or thesauraus or spell check. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric)
And FYI, I like Nadal. I don't care if he is a user or not. He is good for mens tennis in general, and good for Federer in particular. Federer would have won the grand slam 2 years in a row without Nadal.....even without a coach full-time....imagine that....
if u dont care why keep pushing all of these suspicions? we have ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that nadal takes drugs and to suggest this just sounds like either jealousy or a dislike for the player. Or just plain ignorance.
EVERY expert on (American) TV says there is no valid test, currently, for HGH. So you need to share your info with them. EPO, all the various flavors of 'roids - you are correct.
I do agree 100% that it's laughable that people think Rafa uses - shows how little they know about weight/strength training. If Rafa showed up at USC's football locker room, he'd be tiny when compared to everyone except the kickers.
Plain Jane- just so you know- a forum is a place for discussion of opinions. If it were only a place for facts, then this site would only consist of the Match Results section.
But, since I understand what you are getting at, I will not point out the freakish asymmetry in Nadal's arm sizes any more. If fact, he may have a legitimate medical condition such as proteus syndrome or Beckwith-Wiedemann syndrome......I dont know.
Just one request though...if anyone on this forum has seen anyone (athlete, celebrity, personal friend, family member, etc.) with a physical size asymmetry such as Nadal's arms, please post it here (without the person's name of course)....because barring a syndrome such as those named above, I have only seen stroke patients and paraplegics with this kind of disparity....
Hey, I will post some pics of the tennis players from Laver's Era. He had a massive arm, so did many of the top pros in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and today as well. I don't think that he has a syndrome or anything like that. Of course I am not a doctor, but most tennis pros have a bigger arm on the dominant arm (the arm which holds the racquet on the FH) then on their other arm.
It was hard to find old photos. If somebody can find a good one of the massive arms these guys had that would be awesome.
Yes it is. Blood tests are able to find signs of HGH use, along with many other lab created drugs.
I am not surprised he is injured again. With his game style he is going to always be injured quite a bit. That is just a practical fact, and will maybe happen even more as he gets older with his game style.
He definitely does not use drugs though. That is a wrong accusation with no basis of proof.
(Amazing how a guy with so many injury problems came within 3 matches of winning a 4th consecutive slam, and that injury that prevented the 4th slam was a real flukey injury too)
Amazing that a guy with injury problems got injured?
(It's just weird that all those uninjured players out there couldn't win 3 and a half slams in a row. You would think Rafa would have pretty low odds of winning slams so regularly, yet he keeps doing it. And this year he made 8 finals in the 1st half of the year. Very strange consistency for such an injury-prone player)
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