Nadal's injuries - why so rarely on clay?
- Thread starter MichelaDe
- Start date
Mustard
Bionic Poster
That really says it all. The overwhelming majority of retirements (just over 6 out of every 7) are by players who are trailing in the match.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Splitting it up by Bo3 vs Bo5, we get:
| Surface | Matches | Retirements |
|---|---|---|
| Hard (Bo3) | 29,514 | 770 (2.61%) |
| Hard (Bo5) | 7,884 | 335 (4.25%) [+1.64%] |
| Clay (Bo3) | 17,835 | 514 (2.88%) |
| Clay (Bo5) | 4,528 | 162 (3.58%) [+0.70%] |
| Grass (Bo3) | 4,128 | 127 (3.08%) |
| Grass (Bo5) | 2,916 | 93 (3.19%) [+0.11%] |
| Carpet (Bo3) | 1,581 | 44 (2.78%) |
| Carpet (Bo5) | 458 | 9 (1.97%) [-0.81%] |
It looks like the incidence of retirements goes up for Bo5 pretty across the board (as you'd expect), but the most dramatic increase is on HC
Carpet is a pretty small sample size so we can't say much
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socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Let’s get back to the OP’s topic. Why so few injuries only on clay if he has a 56-year (sic) old body! And why do people keep repeating the trope that only his body is older than his age because supposedly he plays tennis so differently that it is harder on his body than for other pro players playing at the same speed.
Clay lover
Legend
I guess it makes sense grass bo5 has the lowest pct. As it's both good for the joints AND has the shortest rallies.
Carpet has a surprisingly big ratio of Best of 5 matches without having a Slam. Looks like quite a lot of countries chose it in the old Davis Cup format. Because otherwise it would only be a few finals of WTF, Masters and some smaller tournaments who could chose it back then before 2007.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
It's mostly DC, and a handful from WTF and Masters
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
The other thing to note is that retirements are way up across the board, regardless of surface or BO3/BO5
Looking at a 20 year span from 1980 to 1999, we had a 1.5% retirement rate versus the 3.0% rate we have now, a reflection of the increasingly physical nature of the game
Curtennis
Hall of Fame
One could argue that you’re able to chase down more balls, points go longer and all of that adds to the toll on the body. A point on grass or fast indoor hard is over much much faster with far less running usually.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Not as amazing as the Serbian player's magic potion, a concoction that only works for him.
Federer_pilon
Professional
Like others have said, for him to be injured and not have enough time to recover for the clay season, he would have to get injured in one of the HC tournaments between the AO and the clay season. When he did get injured at IW, he missed the start of the clay season last year. When he gets injured towards the end of the season, he has plenty of time to recover for the clay swing of the following year.
2021: Didn't play anything between AO and Monte Carlo
2020: Played Acapulco on HC between AO and Rome
2019: Played Acapulco and IW on HC between AO and Monte Carlo
2018: Withdrew from Acapulco after AO and played Davis Cup on clay before Monte Carlo
2017: Played Acapulco, IW and Miami on HC between AO and Monte Carlo
2021: Didn't play anything between AO and Monte Carlo
2020: Played Acapulco on HC between AO and Rome
2019: Played Acapulco and IW on HC between AO and Monte Carlo
2018: Withdrew from Acapulco after AO and played Davis Cup on clay before Monte Carlo
2017: Played Acapulco, IW and Miami on HC between AO and Monte Carlo
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MichelaDe
Rookie
Oh here comes the only guy who plays tennis.
I've played tennis for 10 years. I always choose hardcourts because they are cheaper and I've never had a single serious injury in my life.
If what you say is true you will tell me that Djokovic, Federer, Murray and others got injured more on hard/grass than clay too? Will show me the numbers please?
MichelaDe
Rookie
Thanks. So the surface has no relation to injuries.
DariaGT
Professional
On clay he rarely has injuries in the scoreline as often as on hard.
mehdimike
Hall of Fame
Because on Hard he has to push himself to the limits while on clay he usually cruises. Also on clay he can play on a high level even a bit hampered whereas on hard he only would do that if he is way better than the opponent or close to the victory. But I think the most important factor is the recovery time after WTF. Nowadays he skips many tourneys which helps a bit but even then he gets injured every now and then, it's like his body can't cope with more than 30-40 matches per year.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
His schedule since 2020 has been pretty light. 34 matches in 2020, 29 in 2021, and 47 last year.
MichelaDe
Rookie
Where did you find this?
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
I wrote a program to calculate it from Jeff Sackmann's data:
GitHub - JeffSackmann/tennis_atp: ATP Tennis Rankings, Results, and Stats
ATP Tennis Rankings, Results, and Stats. Contribute to JeffSackmann/tennis_atp development by creating an account on GitHub.
github.com
ghostofMecir
Legend
LMAO this was the one where he thought he “broke his foot.” He proceeds to call a time out in the middle of the tiebreaker, ascertains that he has in fact not broken his foot, continues the match and wins against a Delpo who playing pretty well.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Yeah well he was winning when it happened, which was the point...
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
You are ignoring the fact that there not too many abrupt changes of directions on clay
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Yes, Nadal was winning when he realized he wasn't injured.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
That's why I said in total isolation, moving to the ball and hitting a shot is easier on clay than on HC, but the surface has its disadvantages when it comes to injury potential
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
I guess you either haven't played whole seasons on both hc and clay, or you are a grinder?
Speaking for myself and my friends, we had a lot of injuries and wear and tear after 5-6 months indoor seasons on hc, but very few when playing on clay year around ( har tru outdoors and red clay indoors).
DariaGT
Professional
Clay is way more demanding physically and mentally for tennis than hard courts.
This is what separates European players to the rest of the world.
Nadal could have beaten Federer and Djokovic in past AO finals but was worn out from dmitrov battle
and was ahead in the final set till he just hit a wall. During the final vs Nole his bh let him down after
an easy put away ball inside the service box that would have put him up a break in the final set
(he went nuts improving that side afterwards in training and now his BH is one of the best strokes
we have ever seen even though it was improved late in his career)
So many players have no clue how to win on clay after playing mainly on hardcourts and dont have
the stamina or patience required.
Nadal is lucky conditions are slower than when Kuerten had to win on hardcourts but either way
his mentality even playing at 70% was enough to win the AO last year without Nole around.
This is what separates European players to the rest of the world.
Nadal could have beaten Federer and Djokovic in past AO finals but was worn out from dmitrov battle
and was ahead in the final set till he just hit a wall. During the final vs Nole his bh let him down after
an easy put away ball inside the service box that would have put him up a break in the final set
(he went nuts improving that side afterwards in training and now his BH is one of the best strokes
we have ever seen even though it was improved late in his career)
So many players have no clue how to win on clay after playing mainly on hardcourts and dont have
the stamina or patience required.
Nadal is lucky conditions are slower than when Kuerten had to win on hardcourts but either way
his mentality even playing at 70% was enough to win the AO last year without Nole around.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
What is the excuse in the following 10 out of 12 HC matches vs. Djokovic (after 2012 AO Final)? Who wore him down, what let him down, what injury came back?
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
He was winning at that point in the TB as well... search your memory banks... there was absolutely no reason for him to fake anything at that point come on...
DariaGT
Professional
There is no excuse but was close to winning vs Nole in that AO Final which does not count but was the reason Nadal BH improved out of sight.
There is no doubt Nole is better than Nadal on HCs and Nadal was lucky enough to be in the homogenized era for HCs as well.
If conditions in Wimby, USO and AO were not slowed down Nadal would have likely only have a couple of majors outside RG.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
What point in the TB? His MTO was taken just before the TB.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
junior74
Bionic Poster
My socks and strings disagree
InsuranceMan
Hall of Fame
“Welcome new user”Hi, I am a TTW New User and I'd like to discuss some important topics spontaneously.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic would not have won 7 Wimbledon titles or 9 Australian Open titles in the 90s, by no means.
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
I'm shocked this topic isn't closed yet
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Courier was a finalist in that era and Nadal is 10 times better than him, so...of course but nadal 'd have zero (wimbys) of them which is even worse
Crocodile
G.O.A.T.
Well he has been injured during the French Open, needled up to the max and then decided to play on because he still fancied himself winning.
On the other surfaces his chance of winning is a little bit more difficult, plus last year his body started to get worse after the Australian Open including problems with his ribs followed by his foot, and now his hip flexor.
During this time he has also been adding weight to the tip of his racquet ( SW 360) so that he could stay up with the power he needs to remain up there. Somethings got to eventually give.
On the other surfaces his chance of winning is a little bit more difficult, plus last year his body started to get worse after the Australian Open including problems with his ribs followed by his foot, and now his hip flexor.
During this time he has also been adding weight to the tip of his racquet ( SW 360) so that he could stay up with the power he needs to remain up there. Somethings got to eventually give.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
More demanding, yet less injury prone.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Can you explain to me how magically your guy won the Australian Open 2021 with an abdominal tear?
DariaGT
Professional
Yes true but neither would Murray win anything if you look at Aussie OpenDjokovic would not have won 7 Wimbledon titles or 9 Australian Open titles in the 90s, by no means.
he has played the most boring matches ever seen just using troll style tennis.
Federer would win the most in the 90s of the ATG3 but not more than Sampras
and would have had trouble with many players of that era.
Kuerten on grass was an example of modern string, style, play in that era
Purestriker
Legend
10 times is not crazy. As a percentage of their total matches it’s minuscule.
Zardoz7/12
Hall of Fame
Nadal is lucky for the fact he has incredible wealth because I fear for his long term health, he has abused his body to achieve his goals in his career, his tendonitis in his knees was a direct result of continual epic battles with Federer and Djokovic and that was even in 2009. His health was the sacrifice he made to beat the very best and that is a compliment to Djokovic and Federer.
Clay isn't a forgiving surface but presumably Clay is like Nadal's Spinach if he were Popeye, he associates his greatest successes with Clay and a more positive mental outlook can also motivate you to play through the injuries...I mean he won last years French Open with a numbed foot so it's not like he's injury free playing on Clay.
I don't like this "Nadal only loses when injured" meme which came out of thin air, it's very disrespectful to Nadal and his opponents.
Clay isn't a forgiving surface but presumably Clay is like Nadal's Spinach if he were Popeye, he associates his greatest successes with Clay and a more positive mental outlook can also motivate you to play through the injuries...I mean he won last years French Open with a numbed foot so it's not like he's injury free playing on Clay.
I don't like this "Nadal only loses when injured" meme which came out of thin air, it's very disrespectful to Nadal and his opponents.
DariaGT
Professional
Nadal FH stroke is incredibly efficient and has changed tennis where the wrist control is not locked
and uses the racquet as a whip which is what Djokovic has been trying in the last 2-3 years.
The way he slaps the ball has made many commentators wrong in assuming he puts so much effort
into his shots but the reality is he only puts in what is required using modern equipment.
Even now he could go with a lighter sw and revamped aero but his body is getting slower with age
and these slower homogenized conditions favor ultra-marathon style bodies like Nole, Meds and Sinner.
Fedal body types just made the grade with lean torsos but heavier bone structures have their limits
Hence need steroids for recovery, the latest technology, pain killing injections and adrenaline drugs
to get them to believe they can have another go as they age.
Fed could still be winning now but these slow conditions at the AO would leave him loathing tennis.
Delpo and many other heavy bodied players have not favored well in this era.
Davydenko retired frustrated from losing to hackery and yet had the body, just not the mind or game style.
All this is not possible without the legally administered steroid and cellular harvesting technology available today.
and uses the racquet as a whip which is what Djokovic has been trying in the last 2-3 years.
The way he slaps the ball has made many commentators wrong in assuming he puts so much effort
into his shots but the reality is he only puts in what is required using modern equipment.
Even now he could go with a lighter sw and revamped aero but his body is getting slower with age
and these slower homogenized conditions favor ultra-marathon style bodies like Nole, Meds and Sinner.
Fedal body types just made the grade with lean torsos but heavier bone structures have their limits
Hence need steroids for recovery, the latest technology, pain killing injections and adrenaline drugs
to get them to believe they can have another go as they age.
Fed could still be winning now but these slow conditions at the AO would leave him loathing tennis.
Delpo and many other heavy bodied players have not favored well in this era.
Davydenko retired frustrated from losing to hackery and yet had the body, just not the mind or game style.
All this is not possible without the legally administered steroid and cellular harvesting technology available today.
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