Nadal's match up advantage against Federer is a myth
- Thread starter Lew II
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BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
Nope Fed fans are the hopeless ones constantly flipping GOAT requirements, finding bias in metrics like slam H2H but failing to acknowledge bias in metrics like weeks #1. Whining about the Nadal matchup but failing to acknowledge the advantage in the Djokovic matchup.
Those guys should not be bunched with any other fan base.
Just like Nadal is inferior to Davydenko and
just like ******** is inferior to Roddick
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think he's at a disadvantage against Djokovic, but what positive edge do you think he has over him?
Is there some hole in Novak's game that Roger should've been exploiting all this time?
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
First thread that popped up about Djokovic’s worst surface, and take a look at the approver of post #3. Like clockwork
I underestimated Novak Djokovic's grass credentials and was comparing him to players of previous grass eras. At that time, he'd won 3 Wimbledons, but I considered him lower than Becker and Mac due to their more sustained success and greater natural ability on old grass. Now I see that the Serb is (sadly, because I don't like him) a baseline giant equal to Borg on the surface.
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
The variety. Slice backhand should deliver low balls to his western forehand/semi western backhand. One of the reasons why Djoko has tough time against Murray on grass.
Also FH-FH cross court matchup.
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
Right, because at W 2019 he played like some sort of titan which cemented his shift from his worst surface being “undoubtedly grass” to “definitely not grass”
USO
Banned
Borg didn't have the luxury of meeting 50 year old Federer. Djokovic is overrated on grass.
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
There are things Federer can do to hurt Novak, but I wouldn't describe that as a match-up advantage.
I'm aware of how his slice works against him. But he can't slice every time, so that's offset by the average topspin backhand-to-backhand exchange where Novak definitely has the edge. So it's not really an advantage. At best they're breaking even with each other off that wing.
As for FH-to-FH, Federer has a stronger forehand (or at least he used to), but again that's not what a match-up advantage means. Fed used to win points by using that aforementioned slice to try and move Novak around the court and then use his big forehand to hit past him. But it's not like Fed ever broke down Novak's FH by trading FHs cross-court, or at least never with any sort of regularity. Novak won't hit as many winners with his FH, but he can hit with depth and consistency all day long if Roger wants to play that game.
D
Deleted member 758560
Guest
haha nice beginning of a post, probably top 10
BackhandDTL
Hall of Fame
It’s Roggie’s fault if he can’t take advantage of the slice. Nadal, with a much worse slice, has done it at the USO 2010/13, AO 2012, etc and Murray has done it whenever they met on grass and USO 2012.
prior to 2011 Fed was able to win the CC FH exchanges. Slice was a bigger factor but this was also considerable.
Matchup should theoretically favor Fed. Lack of execution and inability to convert BPs is the culprit.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
I think you'll find that the guys with 1hbh Nadal played had a higher average weighted ranking than the 2hbh guys Nadal played.
Ergo
1hbh is an advantage.
Ergo
Federer is clearly cheating.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
The first point is excellent and one I'd never considered. I mostly chalked up to Fed's preference for lower bounce to the fact that he has extreme upward acceleration on his strokes which is much tougher for all those small muscles in the shoulder to control or execute when the ball is higher. Easier if you have a flatter swing plane (which the guys you mentioned do). Also Federer prefers to time balls rather than give ground off the baseline and it's tougher to time balls with heavy topspin.
The slice BH I think works against almost everyone, even those who hit with topspin because you need an extreme amount of racket speed, footwork, and feel to attack a low bouncing slice with confidence. Against a righty your default slice is going to the BH. But usually almost no one's BH wing has those things so it's usually a point resetter (Nalbandian's is maybe a rare example and part of the reason he was tough for Fed), and while most FHs don't either (certainly Federer used his slice as an offensive weapon to the FH side with great effect against basically every righty he played besides Agassi), Nadal's certainly does.
Federev
G.O.A.T.
What match up advantage?
Sorry, I was born in 2014 so I’ve only been watching tennis for the last six years.
But ... since we’re here, could you help me understand Federer’s match up advantage?
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beard
Legend
I never said Novak can exploit Fed bh to the Nadals extent, but not as much because of spin but because it's his forehand which will always be stronger stroke... But off course he can exploit his bh side, watch tbs where Novak do exactly that...
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Bingo. I'd love to see the stats pre-2017, because I'd suspect that Thiem and Comeback Fed were the exception, not the rule.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
You've been watching longer than OP it seems.
(Sorry Lew, I admire the effort but the conclusion of "no matchup advantage" is a bit ridiculous)
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
And... You lose the bet...
This topic was discussed years ago...
beast of mallorca
G.O.A.T.
It's not a new info though. Any real tennis fan who actually plays the game is aware of its dynamics.
Not taking anything away from the good post of travleraj
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Actually this is something I think about sometimes.
Federer is certainly special player but
Somehow a lot of people overestimated Federer's capability, I think.
That also produced a lot of worshipers and fenatics. But why ?
In early 2000s, a lot of changes went thru ATP tour: surfaces, balls, ranking system, tournament(seeding) system.
That made him look a lot more special than past greats?
His playing style. Graceful and efficient. and his front running strategy made him very popular and look fantastic beyond his true capability?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
The percentages are what they are because, as the win percentages show, Nadal bashes players not named Federer and Djokovic the same and what kind of backhand they have makes little difference when they are beaten all ends up against Nadal. Of course you are too daft to understand THAT or you just get way too excited when you stumble upon a data point and don't bother to analyze the context. Now what's the H2H of Fedal v/s Nadalovic? Yeah, now we're talking. Albeit DBH is not the ONLY thing that favours Djokovic in that matchup but it's a very significant part of it. As RG 2019 showed, even the so called neo backhand wouldn't have changed the equation on RG. And outside clay, outside a bad phase for three years from 2012-14 (in which he still beat Nadal at IW), Fed didn't lose that much to Nadal on HC and grass. As of today, he narrowly leads the H2H off clay. All facts you obviously know but you love to troll all the same, wonder why.
beard
Legend
Thread is from 2012, and you said "prior to 2017" in post that I quoted...
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Because the Santoro effect only seemed to affect one player, Marat Safin. If Santoro, like Nadal, was a nightmare for everyone to play it would simply mean that he was a great player. Claiming to have a match up problem with a player who is just unbelievably good against everybody (Nadal has the best W/L record of all time) is just self-delusion.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well, considering that he was troubling Fed when was was really young and Fed was at his peak does support my assertion.
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Nadal has been an ATG in the making since day one. His game was a problem for everyone including Federer because he is incredibly good not incredibly good.
I wouldn't make this argument, but you could say that Dustin Brown is a match up problem for Nadal given their H2H and what both have achieved in their careers, otherwise against the whole field.
But if Dustin Brown was on 20 slams, making the same argument would be utterly ridiculous. To win 20 slams you need to be a fantastic player and a nightmare for everyone to play.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Still disagree. You can still be a match-up issue for someone while also dominating the field.
I know Rafa was an ATG from day one, but he was still difficult for Federer to beat in the same period when Nadal was losing to several players on HC.
The fact that Roger has dominated Rafa ,off clay, the past four years when Roger is supposedly past his peak supports your opinion that several of Roger's losses to Rafa earlier were psychological? I often thought that was the case.
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
The matchup is a nightmare for Fed on clay. Nadal basically backs Fed off baseline and takes away his aggressive, attacking game.
On grass the lefty serve into Fed’s BH was enough to make it very hard for Fed to break Rafa. Aside from the first set of 2006, fifth set of 2007, and their 2019 matchup Fed had very few breaks of serve, and all Nadal would basically do was serve spin into Fed BH and produce weak returns. He can’t do that to Nole.
On grass the lefty serve into Fed’s BH was enough to make it very hard for Fed to break Rafa. Aside from the first set of 2006, fifth set of 2007, and their 2019 matchup Fed had very few breaks of serve, and all Nadal would basically do was serve spin into Fed BH and produce weak returns. He can’t do that to Nole.
Thriller
Hall of Fame
If anything Nadal was the one with match up problems ... against lower ranked flat hitters like Davydenko, Blake etc that he had to solve. He was ranked number 2 and losing to players that on paper he should have been able to beat easily and it was costing him slams. He figured these guys out to the point that at one time he had a positive H2H with every player in the top 100 and no more match up problems.
This wasn't the case with Federer. I completely had Nadal as the favourite in every outdoor match on clay and hard after 2006 as it was clear to me from their first 6 matches that Nadal was the one with more weapons. Federer needed to have a perfect serving day or he was going to lose. He simply was not as good as Nadal from the baseline once the rally got going.
I dont agree with this point.
I think Federer is better on grass, and the main reason of the big Nadal advantage h2h is they played to many matches on clay, and only a few matches on grass.
D
Deleted member 777746
Guest
Then why did Fed tremble in fear every time he was one round away from facing Nadal at the Open since 2010?
Tremblerer
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