Navratilova vs Court on clay

[BTURNER]

A more intriguing question than Court and Evert on clay, is to compare Court's clay record with Navratilova. I easily see these two as the best s/ver's ( women) to play on clay. they are virtually the only two with any extensive success. This is the easy part. Court beat Turner Bowery (13)'62, then Bueno (2) '64, then lost to Turner Bowery ( 3) in '65, beat Ann Jones ( 3)'69, then Mastoff ( 7) in '70, and finally Evert ( 2) '73.

Navratilova lost to Evert(1)75, beat Jaeger (4) '82, beat Evert ( 2)84, lost to Evert ( 2) 85, lost to Evert ( 2) 86, and finally Graf ( 2) 87. That is 6 finals each. Navratilova lost 2 of the 6 while Court won 5 of the 6, but Navratilova never played a seed lower than 4 in her final and in five of the six played the second or first seed. Court only played either the top or second seed twice I her finals.

they both lost some early rounds. Court as the 3 seed lost QF to haydon in 61, and as top seed lost to Vera Sukova again in QF in 63. She got killed in the semis by Richey( 5) 66. Her most embarrassing loss was in the third Rd to unseeded Chanfreu in1971.

Martina unseeded lost to Goolagong ( 4) 73, lost to Mastoff ( 5), then as 2 seed lost to Hanika ( 6)81. Her most embarrassig loss as top seed, was in 83 to unseeded Horvath forth Rd, but she ( 2) also lost in the forth round in 88 to Zvereva (13).

Court also won 3 Italians and 3 germans, while the best Navratilova could do was reach a few finals, when she bothered to play at all.

Now that leaves the Har-tru clay circuit completely blank from this discussion, I think Martina's record on rubico is more solid than Courts. will post more on that later.

 

[suwanee4712]

I think a big part of the reason for Court's success on clay is her ability to drive through the ball. I'm guessing that her shots had a lot of penetration regardless of the conditions. Though I really can't speak much to Court's clay court prowess as I never saw her play on it other than a few points from the 1973 final. As for Martina, I think a huge part of her success was her movement on clay. You could tell that she was a very natural clay court player.

I would consider Martina one of the great clay court players of all time when you look at her Roland Garros record. She may have only won twice, but look at how close she was to winning at least 3 more vs. the likes of Evert and Graf. She should have beaten Evert in 1986 but got cocky. Martina blitzed her in the first set and should have continued to attack in the second set - but she didn't. She was too busy trying to prove that she could beat even Evert from the baseline. Meanwhile, Chris' strokes became grooved and a should have win for Martina turned into what I consider to be the Evert masterpiece on clay. Martina went from being able to attack at will to be being pinned at the baseline and left almost utterly incapable of mounting an attack against Evert's pinpoint accuracy. And I do think it was due to the kind of hubris that Becker also used to display on clay. They both had a tendency to forget who they really are on a clay court. Had Martina kept up her pace and continued pressing forward, that final may have ended up much like the 1984 final did.

Her losses in 85 and 87 were two of the worst serving performances in an important match of her career - along with the 87 Australian final. I suppose the wind had much to do with it, but her opponents also had to deal with the wind and did it better than Martina did who got chokey on both occasions.

As historically conscious as Martina was, I am surprised that she did not place more importance on trying to win Rome until late in her career. There's no doubt that she could have won it in the mid 80's, but the Italian went through a transition of sorts when they brought the womens tournament back to Rome to join the men. The German, I think, had fallen to a distant third in the importance of old European clay court titles. There was ample opportunity for her to win in Berlin in the early to mid 80's but didn't think it worth the effort. In fact, Martina may have only started pursuing the Italian the way she did because of contracts with Italian sponsors such as Lotto.

Martina's record on har tru is outstanding when looking at her record in places like Hilton Head and Amelia Island. We never got to see Martina play Chris on the beautiful court at Sea Pines Plantation and that is a shame. To beat Chris on that court would have been a tall order, but I would have enjoyed watching Martina try. I don't think Martina ever even entered the formerly prestigious US Clay Courts Championships. I do know that when Martina and Chris dominated the top they made out their schedules together to satisfy tournament directors. The clay court season was long and spread out which meant they often didn't play at the same event. Again, another loss for us as I consider their 1987 Houston match to be one of their best in the long rivalry.

I sometimes see rankings of great clay court players or great French Open champions and see players like Sanchez outranking Martina. I just laugh. There's a reason why Martina is Martina and someone like Sanchez is not - even on clay.

 

[Moose Malloy]

I've done stats for a few clay matches involving Martina and while there is a lot of S&V, the points are very long compared to matches she played on hardcourt and grass(so much lobbing and resetting of the point, etc. that didn't happen if you played Martina at Wimbledon) She didn't chip and charge a lot on clay and would wait for her opportunities to get in, which could frequently take over 10 shots.

And the points were way longer than points at the French Open for at least the last 6 or 7 years. while Serena, Sharapova, Muguruza, Osapenko are technically baseliners, they aren't 80s baseliners - stats show that majority of points today on clay are over in 4 shots or less. It's played pretty much just like hardcourt tennis.

I guess the point (for those reading this thread who didnt see her play much, or have forgotten) is don't be mislead by seeing her name in all those French Open finals and assume points were over in 3 or 4 shots most of the time because she was a serve and volleyer, there was still a ton of grinding in her matches and she was pretty darn good in long rallies, maybe the best baseline player of any serve and volleyer(including men) I've ever seen.

I haven't seen Court on clay(and probably never will, not much footage from the French back then) but I have seen Laver and Rosewall on clay, and points were pretty quick. I'm guessing Court didn't play as much from the baseline on clay as Martina, partly due to technology and the way the game changed so much from the 60s to the 80s(dramatic increase in baseline play)

 

[thrust]

A more intriguing question than Court and Evert on clay, is to compare Court's clay record with Navratilova. I easily see these two as the best s/ver's ( women) to play on clay. they are virtually the only two with any extensive success. This is the easy part. Court beat Turner Bowery (13)'62, then Bueno (2) '64, then lost to Turner Bowery ( 3) in '65, beat Ann Jones ( 3)'69, then Mastoff ( 7) in '70, and finally Evert ( 2) '73.

Navratilova lost to Evert(1)75, beat Jaeger (4) '82, beat Evert ( 2)84, lost to Evert ( 2) 85, lost to Evert ( 2) 86, and finally Graf ( 2) 87. That is 6 finals each. Navratilova lost 2 of the 6 while Court won 5 of the 6, but Navratilova never played a seed lower than 4 in her final and in five of the six played the second or first seed. Court only played either the top or second seed twice I her finals.

they both lost some early rounds. Court as the 3 seed lost QF to haydon in 61, and as top seed lost to Vera Sukova again in QF in 63. She got killed in the semis by Richey( 5) 66. Her most embarrassing loss was in the third Rd to unseeded Chanfreu in1971.

Martina unseeded lost to Goolagong ( 4) 73, lost to Mastoff ( 5), then as 2 seed lost to Hanika ( 6)81. Her most embarrassig loss as top seed, was in 83 to unseeded Horvath forth Rd, but she ( 2) also lost in the forth round in 88 to Zvereva (13).

Court also won 3 Italians and 3 germans, while the best Navratilova could do was reach a few finals, when she bothered to play at all.

Now that leaves the Har-tru clay circuit completely blank from this discussion, I think Martina's record on rubico is more solid than Courts. will post more on that later.

I am sure Court won many more clay court tournaments than Martina. Court only played 10 French and won 5. Court also won 3 Italian titles, which was a very important ladies tournament then as well as today. Court also has the most S-D-MD total at the French. Also, Lesley Turner was a great clay court player as was Ann Haydon, Helga Schultz, Nancy Richey and Angela Mortimer.

 

[thrust]

A more intriguing question than Court and Evert on clay, is to compare Court's clay record with Navratilova. I easily see these two as the best s/ver's ( women) to play on clay. they are virtually the only two with any extensive success. This is the easy part. Court beat Turner Bowery (13)'62, then Bueno (2) '64, then lost to Turner Bowery ( 3) in '65, beat Ann Jones ( 3)'69, then Mastoff ( 7) in '70, and finally Evert ( 2) '73.

Navratilova lost to Evert(1)75, beat Jaeger (4) '82, beat Evert ( 2)84, lost to Evert ( 2) 85, lost to Evert ( 2) 86, and finally Graf ( 2) 87. That is 6 finals each. Navratilova lost 2 of the 6 while Court won 5 of the 6, but Navratilova never played a seed lower than 4 in her final and in five of the six played the second or first seed. Court only played either the top or second seed twice I her finals.

they both lost some early rounds. Court as the 3 seed lost QF to haydon in 61, and as top seed lost to Vera Sukova again in QF in 63. She got killed in the semis by Richey( 5) 66. Her most embarrassing loss was in the third Rd to unseeded Chanfreu in1971.

Martina unseeded lost to Goolagong ( 4) 73, lost to Mastoff ( 5), then as 2 seed lost to Hanika ( 6)81. Her most embarrassig loss as top seed, was in 83 to unseeded Horvath forth Rd, but she ( 2) also lost in the forth round in 88 to Zvereva (13).

Court also won 3 Italians and 3 germans, while the best Navratilova could do was reach a few finals, when she bothered to play at all.

Now that leaves the Har-tru clay circuit completely blank from this discussion, I think Martina's record on rubico is more solid than Courts. will post more on that later.

No other woman, but Court, could have defeated Evert in that 73 FO final. The year Martina beat Chris in the FO final, Martina was having her greatest year, I think in 84 which was also McEnroe's greatest year.

 

[BobbyOne]

A more intriguing question than Court and Evert on clay, is to compare Court's clay record with Navratilova. I easily see these two as the best s/ver's ( women) to play on clay. they are virtually the only two with any extensive success. This is the easy part. Court beat Turner Bowery (13)'62, then Bueno (2) '64, then lost to Turner Bowery ( 3) in '65, beat Ann Jones ( 3)'69, then Mastoff ( 7) in '70, and finally Evert ( 2) '73.

Navratilova lost to Evert(1)75, beat Jaeger (4) '82, beat Evert ( 2)84, lost to Evert ( 2) 85, lost to Evert ( 2) 86, and finally Graf ( 2) 87. That is 6 finals each. Navratilova lost 2 of the 6 while Court won 5 of the 6, but Navratilova never played a seed lower than 4 in her final and in five of the six played the second or first seed. Court only played either the top or second seed twice I her finals.

they both lost some early rounds. Court as the 3 seed lost QF to haydon in 61, and as top seed lost to Vera Sukova again in QF in 63. She got killed in the semis by Richey( 5) 66. Her most embarrassing loss was in the third Rd to unseeded Chanfreu in1971.

Martina unseeded lost to Goolagong ( 4) 73, lost to Mastoff ( 5), then as 2 seed lost to Hanika ( 6)81. Her most embarrassig loss as top seed, was in 83 to unseeded Horvath forth Rd, but she ( 2) also lost in the forth round in 88 to Zvereva (13).

Court also won 3 Italians and 3 germans, while the best Navratilova could do was reach a few finals, when she bothered to play at all.

Now that leaves the Har-tru clay circuit completely blank from this discussion, I think Martina's record on rubico is more solid than Courts. will post more on that later.

BTURNER, Please write "Masthoff" and "Chanfreau".

 

[BTURNER]

No other woman, but Court, could have defeated Evert in that 73 FO final. The year Martina beat Chris in the FO final, Martina was having her greatest year, I think in 84 which was also McEnroe's greatest year.

Well someone else did pretty much the same thing to Chris about a week later, only worse. Evonne Goolagong beat Evert 7-6, 6-0 in the final of the Italian on the same crushed brick. ( 1973 was the last year that it was held after the French.) Evert was clearly not invincible on red clay yet. Evert had never played in Europe before, never played on red clay before and never been in a major final before.

One piece of this puzzle, that I do NOT know, is how much success Court had on green clay. Margaret's red clay record is far more secure and solid than Martina. Mostly because Martina did not show up enough over there.

 

[BTURNER]

I've done stats for a few clay matches involving Martina and while there is a lot of S&V, the points are very long compared to matches she played on hardcourt and grass(so much lobbing and resetting of the point, etc. that didn't happen if you played Martina at Wimbledon) She didn't chip and charge a lot on clay and would wait for her opportunities to get in, which could frequently take over 10 shots.

And the points were way longer than points at the French Open for at least the last 6 or 7 years. while Serena, Sharapova, Muguruza, Osapenko are technically baseliners, they aren't 80s baseliners - stats show that majority of points today on clay are over in 4 shots or less. It's played pretty much just like hardcourt tennis.

I guess the point (for those reading this thread who didnt see her play much, or have forgotten) is don't be mislead by seeing her name in all those French Open finals and assume points were over in 3 or 4 shots most of the time because she was a serve and volleyer, there was still a ton of grinding in her matches and she was pretty darn good in long rallies, maybe the best baseline player of any serve and volleyer(including men) I've ever seen.

I haven't seen Court on clay(and probably never will, not much footage from the French back then) but I have seen Laver and Rosewall on clay, and points were pretty quick. I'm guessing Court didn't play as much from the baseline on clay as Martina, partly due to technology and the way the game changed so much from the 60s to the 80s(dramatic increase in baseline play)

If Martina could not get in on her first serve or was not lucky enough to receive a short second serve to whack with her forehand, she was pretty well trapped into a rally, at least for awhile and she did indeed have secure groundies. Her only weakness on clay was that her topspin backhand could drop short. Evert tended to pick on that wing anyway but she found that she could eventually get something to attack if she gave Martina enough of them.

 

[BorisRogerFan]

Who cares about clay, apart from Nadal Parers?Clay sucks.

 

[Purplemonster]

Be interesting to see what would happen on carpet.

 

[MLRoy]

According to Nancy Richey and Virginia Wade, they both considered Court their toughest opponent. She could hang on the baseline w/ anyone, including Evert. Navratilova always tried to get to the net. Her first big upset, I'd say, was beating Richey at the FO in '73 by serving and volleying! Smart, ballsy game plan. I always thought her very overrated, (I've seen her play live) but she got results obviously.

 

[BTURNER]

According to Nancy Richey and Virginia Wade, they both considered Court their toughest opponent. She could hang on the baseline w/ anyone, including Evert. Navratilova always tried to get to the net. Her first big upset, I'd say, was beating Richey at the FO in '73 by serving and volleying! Smart, ballsy game plan. I always thought her very overrated, (I've seen her play live) but she got results obviously.

From what I have seen in clips of Court and Navratilova at RG, both came in on their first serve, and off short balls. Neither came in on their second serve, or chipped and charged on return consistently on red clay. If the second serve landed short, they both ran around it, hit a forhand approach and came in. If the second was deep, they did not. There were extensive and long rallies beyond that. I see no difference. I will refer you to Moose Malloy's post number 3 on the length of the rallies in Martina matches on clay. Martina seemed to 'hang' pretty well on her way to all those finals and in her victories.

 

[MLRoy]

From what I have seen in clips of Court and Navratilova at RG, both came in on their first serve, and off short balls. Neither came in on their second serve, or chipped and charged on return consistently on red clay. If the second serve landed short, they both ran around it, hit a forhand approach and came in. If the second was deep, they did not. There were extensive and long rallies beyond that. I see no difference. I will refer you to Moose Malloy's post number 3 on the length of the rallies in Martina matches on clay. Martina seemed to 'hang' pretty well on her way to all those finals and in her victories.

I didn't mean necessarily just on clay. Like I wrote, Mantina served & volleyed against Richey on clay. Do you think if she thought she could've beaten her at the baseline she would've done that? I don't know her FO record. My guess is if she were playing Evert, she'd pray for a short ball to come in on. Good luck, right?

In the '69 US Open final, Richey served & volleyed, and Court stayed at the baseline. Obviously both chose those contradictory modes than their usual M.O.'s for a reason.

I think Court had a better backhand. Well, I know she had a better backhand. Right there Court has the advantage at the baseline: more options. All Navratilova had was a slice backhand. She said she just couldn't hit a topspin backhand. As a baseliner myself, with a natural slice backhand, I can tell you it's very difficult to play on any surface with just slicing the ball, even on clay. My cap's off to Graf, et al, who have pulled that off. (Of course the only times I ever saw Graf beat Seles was with a topspin backhand. Like me, she could hit with top spin; the slice was just easier, more natural to "us". ;^)B

Yeah, Navratilova had an okay record. Yawn. I really couldn't give a f*** if she won 85 slams. But, as I said, I've seen her in person several times, and I was never very impressed by her game. Ditto for her TV matches. But I'm not that impressed by the current world # 4's game, either. Evert, Goolagong, Court and King were more impressive to me. What eve.

 

[MLRoy]

I was trying to remember how I knew Navratilova served & volleyed against Richey at the '73 FO. I found my favorite tennis book, Bud Collins' Tennis Encyclopedia (3rd ed). I know everyone on this thread/forum loves tennis. If you don't have it, get it. You won't regret it. Anyway, my favorite part of this encyclopedia is "The Open Era" chapter, where Collins highlights the most important matches of every year (1968 - 1996, 3rd ed). But unlike a normal encyclopedia, Old Bud personalizes it, as he covered all of those matches as a reporter for The Boston Globe, as well as a player & tennis lover/historian. So, an encyclopedia will give you the scores, but his commentary will give you the score, and tell you it was unusually hot out, or so & so had the stomach flu (aka, hang-over), or a set score of 6-1 wasn't because Player A was playing badly, but because Player B was "playing out of her mind", as a famous "knocked-up" tennis player usually explains away her loses.

So, I looked-up "1973", but not a word about that Richey-Navratilova match. Collins devoted most of that year's commentary to Nikki Pilic's situation, and aftermath. And the rigged Riggs-King match.

I remember my father had a couple of tennis yearbooks from the '70s that were fascinating. So, that may have been where I read that. I wish I could find them. Anyway, hat's off to Martina for that gamble that payed-off.

But, since I had it, that encyclopedia in my hands, I turned to the back to see what exactly was Madge's and Ratty's FO, and Italian Open records. I was shocked. Now rereading your original post, BT, I see you included it. (The wins, versus "just" being a finalist, and the seedings, just zoned me out. I'm a girl. All those numbers confused me.)

In those days there were less clay tourneys it seems. I know there were more grass tourneys, other than 3/4 slams. But Smith-Court won 5 FOs, and 3 IOs. Navratilova won 2 FOs. Big difference, WTT notwithstanding. Court was also playing WTT, past her prime or not. Mima Jousavic & V. Ruzici winning during the WTT years says A LOT.

As far as their semis & finals competition, you can't really compare. For what ever reason, even though grass courts were more plentiful, including 3 out of the 4 slams, the '60s had a couple of exceptional baseliners (who could come to the net and volley well, unlike NOW). So, while they may not have been the 2nd seed, Court actually had more "quality" clay court competition, imvho, than Martina. Court beat Ann "Centre Court" Jones once, Turner once, Chris once, Bueno once, and Helga Masthoff (great forehand). Okay, Bueno wasn't a baseliner, but the other chicks were. Throw in Richey, Durr, Heldman, and Melville, and that's eight clay court experts to worry about; whereas Navratilova only had to worry about Evert at the FO ("only").

You know what the biggest surprise to me was looking at the finalists over the years of France? That other great baseliner from the 1970s, Austin, never made it to the final!

This, I'm sure, will illuminate my competition point: the top tens of 1973 (31 yr old Court's last great slam year that also includes some of her competition from the '60s), and 1983 (26 yr old Navratilova's heyday):

1973: 1983:

1. Court 1. Navratilova
2. King 2. Evert-Lloyd
3. Goolagong 3. "Pammie" Shriver
4. Evert 4. Jaeger
5. Casals 5. Durie
6. Wade 6. Turnbull
7. Melville 7. Mandlikova
8. Richey-Gunter 8. Temesvari
9. Heldman 9. Hanika
10. Masthoff 10. Jordan

Sorry the lists came out on top of each other. I'm SURE BJK would've loved to have been that close to Chris, but I spaced them appropriately originally. You get the idea. LOOK AT THOSE 2 LISTS! What a difference 10 yrs makes! I've seen all 20 players play. Twelve in person, and the rest on TV/video.

In the '73 list 9 were slam finalists, and 7 were slam winners. Every one was good enough, imvho, to win a slam. Look at that pathetic '83 list. It looks like today's top ten minus Chris and Martina. How Durie can be a top 5 world player ANY year defies logic. She wasn't good enough to hold Wade's jockstrap, as far as I'm concerned! (Yeah, I've got a way with a phrase. A bad way. ;^)B Fun thread. Thanks.

 

[BTURNER]

I was trying to remember how I knew Navratilova served & volleyed against Richey at the '73 FO. I found my favorite tennis book, Bud Collins' Tennis Encyclopedia (3rd ed). I know everyone on this thread/forum loves tennis. If you don't have it, get it. You won't regret it. Anyway, my favorite part of this encyclopedia is "The Open Era" chapter, where Collins highlights the most important matches of every year (1968 - 1996, 3rd ed). But unlike a normal encyclopedia, Old Bud personalizes it, as he covered all of those matches as a reporter for The Boston Globe, as well as a player & tennis lover/historian. So, an encyclopedia will give you the scores, but his commentary will give you the score, and tell you it was unusually hot out, or so & so had the stomach flu (aka, hang-over), or a set score of 6-1 wasn't because Player A was playing badly, but because Player B was "playing out of her mind", as a famous "knocked-up" tennis player usually explains away her loses.

So, I looked-up "1973", but not a word about that Richey-Navratilova match. Collins devoted most of that year's commentary to Nikki Pilic's situation, and aftermath. And the rigged Riggs-King match.

I remember my father had a couple of tennis yearbooks from the '70s that were fascinating. So, that may have been where I read that. I wish I could find them. Anyway, hat's off to Martina for that gamble that payed-off.

But, since I had it, that encyclopedia in my hands, I turned to the back to see what exactly was Madge's and Ratty's FO, and Italian Open records. I was shocked. Now rereading your original post, BT, I see you included it. (The wins, versus "just" being a finalist, and the seedings, just zoned me out. I'm a girl. All those numbers confused me.)

In those days there were less clay tourneys it seems. I know there were more grass tourneys, other than 3/4 slams. But Smith-Court won 5 FOs, and 3 IOs. Navratilova won 2 FOs. Big difference, WTT notwithstanding. Court was also playing WTT, past her prime or not. Mima Jousavic & V. Ruzici winning during the WTT years says A LOT.

As far as their semis & finals competition, you can't really compare. For what ever reason, even though grass courts were more plentiful, including 3 out of the 4 slams, the '60s had a couple of exceptional baseliners (who could come to the net and volley well, unlike NOW). So, while they may not have been the 2nd seed, Court actually had more "quality" clay court competition, imvho, than Martina. Court beat Ann "Centre Court" Jones once, Turner once, Chris once, Bueno once, and Helga Masthoff (great forehand). Okay, Bueno wasn't a baseliner, but the other chicks were. Throw in Richey, Durr, Heldman, and Melville, and that's eight clay court experts to worry about; whereas Navratilova only had to worry about Evert at the FO ("only").

You know what the biggest surprise to me was looking at the finalists over the years of France? That other great baseliner from the 1970s, Austin, never made it to the final!

This, I'm sure, will illuminate my competition point: the top tens of 1973 (31 yr old Court's last great slam year that also includes some of her competition from the '60s), and 1983 (26 yr old Navratilova's heyday):

1973: 1983:

1. Court 1. Navratilova
2. King 2. Evert-Lloyd
3. Goolagong 3. "Pammie" Shriver
4. Evert 4. Jaeger
5. Casals 5. Durie
6. Wade 6. Turnbull
7. Melville 7. Mandlikova
8. Richey-Gunter 8. Temesvari
9. Heldman 9. Hanika
10. Masthoff 10. Jordan

Sorry the lists came out on top of each other. I'm SURE BJK would've loved to have been that close to Chris, but I spaced them appropriately originally. You get the idea. LOOK AT THOSE 2 LISTS! What a difference 10 yrs makes! I've seen all 20 players play. Twelve in person, and the rest on TV/video.

In the '73 list 9 were slam finalists, and 7 were slam winners. Every one was good enough, imvho, to win a slam. Look at that pathetic '83 list. It looks like today's top ten minus Chris and Martina. How Durie can be a top 5 world player ANY year defies logic. She wasn't good enough to hold Wade's jockstrap, as far as I'm concerned! (Yeah, I've got a way with a phrase. A bad way. ;^)B Fun thread. Thanks.

The problem is that you are comparing 'slam finalists' from your 1973 when that does us little good for our purposes when 3 of the four majors were grasscourt majors. Half of them would never have gotten into the final of a RG final. it is also true that Evert and Navratilova were selfish greedy hogs who would hardly ever let anyone else play in finals of majors regardless of surface.

 

[MLRoy]

The problem is that you are comparing 'slam finalists' from your 1973 when that does us little good for our purposes when 3 of the four majors were grasscourt majors. Half of them would never have gotten into the final of a RG final. it is also true that Evert and Navratilova were selfish greedy hogs who would hardly ever let anyone else play in finals of majors regardless of surface.

Actually, half of that list from '73 not only played in a RG final, they also won at least one. I included both lists to show you how much more competition Court had on clay (and every other surface) versus navratilova. She not only had more clay court competition, but won more clay tourneys. Five FOs, 3 Italian Opens to Mantina's 2 FOs. You do the math.

News flash: there's still only one slam on clay. What difference does it make if the other 3 are on grass or cement? And save the condescension for your cat.

 

[thrust]

Actually, half of that list from '73 not only played in a RG final, they also won at least one. I included both lists to show you how much more competition Court had on clay (and every other surface) versus navratilova. She not only had more clay court competition, but won more clay tourneys. Five FOs, 3 Italian Opens to Mantina's 2 FOs. You do the math.

News flash: there's still only one slam on clay. What difference does it make if the other 3 are on grass or cement? And save the condescension for your cat.

I agree that Court had very tough competition throughout her entire career. She only played 10 French an won 5. One outstanding or great clay court player not on the 73 list was Lesley Turner-Bowery. She won 2 FO and 2 Italian titles, beating Court, King and Bueno in both. Clay was not Bueno's best surface, but she did reach a French final and a few semi's. She also won 3 Italian and reached another final or two. Was the BJK-Riggs match really rigged? It would not surprise me.

 

[BTURNER]

Actually, half of that list from '73 not only played in a RG final, they also won at least one. I included both lists to show you how much more competition Court had on clay (and every other surface) versus navratilova. She not only had more clay court competition, but won more clay tourneys. Five FOs, 3 Italian Opens to Mantina's 2 FOs. You do the math.

News flash: there's still only one slam on clay. What difference does it make if the other 3 are on grass or cement? And save the condescension for your cat.

We will try again. "In the '73 list 9 were slam finalists, and 7 were slam winners. Every one was good enough, imvho, to win a slam" That was your quote to puff them up. I don't give a rats ass if they reached to finals of Wimbledon or the US National or the Aussie or if you think they were good enough to, nor should you. I care about clay because that is surface we are comparing. there is no point in listing Rosie Casals name, unless you want to assert that she was a serious threat on a clay court in the 1970's. I am interested in the number that reached a slam final on clay . I mention the fact that 3 of four majors were played on grass because it makes that list of yours useless 3/4ths of the time. For a period of three years,1975-1977, half the majors were played on clay. that increases the number of finalists. Pare these lists down to those you note as having been reached a final on a clay slam on both sides, extend the time from beyond just 1973 and 1983, and we have something relevant to discuss. Its not like the lists from 1964 or 1984 are irrelevant. Both players played opponents then too.

I am not so concerned with your conclusion as your evidence you provided. Its the wrong data.

 

[MLRoy]

We will try again. "In the '73 list 9 were slam finalists, and 7 were slam winners. Every one was good enough, imvho, to win a slam" That was your quote to puff them up. I don't give a rats ass if they reached to finals of Wimbledon or the US National or the Aussie or if you think they were good enough to, nor should you. I care about clay because that is surface we are comparing. there is no point in listing Rosie Casals name, unless you want to assert that she was a serious threat on a clay court in the 1970's. I am interested in the number that reached a slam final on clay . I mention the fact that 3 of four majors were played on grass because it makes that list of yours useless 3/4ths of the time. For a period of three years,1975-1977, half the majors were played on clay. that increases the number of finalists. Pare these lists down to those you note as having been reached a final on a clay slam on both sides, extend the time from beyond just 1973 and 1983, and we have something relevant to discuss. Its not like the lists from 1964 or 1984 are irrelevant. Both players played opponents then too.

I am not so concerned with your conclusion as your evidence you provided. Its the wrong data.

The only thing I got "wrong" was I forgot the US Open was played on clay from '75-'77. Sorry. But since neither Court, nor Navratilova made the finals there during those years, it doesn't change the tally.

I didn't submit "wrong data". Those two lists were world-end lists, in the book I cited. I didn't pick my favorite players from '73 & '83 to make my point. Rosie Casals was the number 5 player in the world at the end of '73. I know she didn't win a major clay tourney, and didn't say she did. I just included the entire list, in order. Ditto 1983 list. If it's beyond you to understand that, and compare the quality of players for those years, so be it. Not my problem. I chose those years for the reasons I stated: 1973 was Court's last successful slam year, and Navratilova was number 1 in '83. Since there's a 14 year age gap, a decade's ('73 & '83) difference seems fair & appropriate to me. We can compare any years you want, but it doesn't change Court or Martina's record, does it...?

 

[MLRoy]

I agree that Court had very tough competition throughout her entire career. She only played 10 French an won 5. One outstanding or great clay court player not on the 73 list was Lesley Turner-Bowery. She won 2 FO and 2 Italian titles, beating Court, King and Bueno in both. Clay was not Bueno's best surface, but she did reach a French final and a few semi's. She also won 3 Italian and reached another final or two. Was the BJK-Riggs match really rigged? It would not surprise me.

Hi. Yeah, when I was looking up finals, Lesley had a lot of ink. She lost a couple of FO finals & 2 Oz finals as well. Pretty impressive. I remember seeing her play WTT in the '70s. I don't remember if I saw her in person, or on TV. Maybe both, because I can picture her. Not imposing-looking at all. She's Madge's age, so she was near the end of her career then as well. That was one of the great things about WTT in the '70s. I got to see a lot of players before they retired, that I never would have otherwise. I didn't see Bueno play WTT, unfortunately, but I remember she played for The Florida Flamingoes! The Boston Lobsters were my home team. The first 3 years, Kerry Melville, Raz Reid, Tony Roche, Roger Taylor, Wendy Turnbull, Greer Stevens and John Alexander made up the team. They weren't THE most killer team, but they were a lot of fun to watch.

One player I saw that I wouldn't have otherwise was Ann "Center Court" Jones. It was a televised match in '75 or '76. She was playing doubles, and was build like a refrigerator: big, and no waist at all. She was very out-of-shape as if she had given birth not long ago, and hadn't lost all the weight yet. But, despite that, her shots were great. Excellent depth/placement, from what I remember. I think she was using either a Wilson T2000 or T3000, which makes her more impressive (tough to play with).

I shouldn't say the Riggs-King match was rigged, but from what I've read, now, it seems like it must have been. In the 1970s, Court owned King, yet, Riggs dominated her easily. Riggs supposedly had a lot of gambling debts to pay-off, and this was his way to do it. I also think King was in on it. While she isn't what I'd call an intellectual, I think she's very street-wise and shrewd. This is one of her quotes I remember her saying, trying to explain her win: "Bobby may have taken too many vitamins..."!! Yeah, those vitamins will really kill you... I also think King is a win at all cost/for the greater good-type. If it saved Bobby from suffering 2 broken legs, and promoted her interests, my guess is that she'd be on-board. ;^)B

 

[BTURNER]

The only thing I got "wrong" was I forgot the US Open was played on clay from '75-'77. Sorry. But since neither Court, nor Navratilova made the finals there during those years, it doesn't change the tally.

I didn't submit "wrong data". Those two lists were world-end lists, in the book I cited. I didn't pick my favorite players from '73 & '83 to make my point. Rosie Casals was the number 5 player in the world at the end of '73. I know she didn't win a major clay tourney, and didn't say she did. I just included the entire list, in order. Ditto 1983 list. If it's beyond you to understand that, and compare the quality of players for those years, so be it. Not my problem. I chose those years for the reasons I stated: 1973 was Court's last successful slam year, and Navratilova was number 1 in '83. Since there's a 14 year age gap, a decade's ('73 & '83) difference seems fair & appropriate to me. We can compare any years you want, but it doesn't change Court or Martina's record, does it...?

Why is Court's last successful slam year more important than any other successful slam year? Why utilize a top ten list at all, when half of the players on them were not threats on clay?

I can't figure out why is a 'top ten list' developed on four surfaces of play, compiled from only one isolated year of each of their careers, the 'right data' when we are comparing entire careers and only one surface?

 

[jaystarhair]

I sometimes see rankings of great clay court players or great French Open champions and see players like Sanchez outranking Martina. I just laugh. There's a reason why Martina is Martina and someone like Sanchez is not - even on clay.

Sanchez is one of my least favorite female players. I hated so many things about her- her poor sportsmanship, her cheating (questioning every line all to influence line judges amongst other things), her playing style, her ugly game. And I still 100% disagree with you here.

Sanchez won 3 French Opens to Martina's 2, made more RG finals and semis, won more Premier and overall tournaments on clay, and in general was more successful than Martina in every numerical yardstick that exists on the surface. And she did that in what was almost certainly the deepest clay field in tennis history which featured Graf, Seles, Sanchez, Sabatini, Martinez, Pierce, Capriati at the top helm and other dangerous clay opponents like Majoli, Fernandez, Date, Coetzer, Davenport, Zvereva, and others. Yes even with the Seles stabbing by far the strongest and deepest womens field ever on the surface of clay, and Sanchez still achieved all that. Martina had Chris yes, and Hana who was pretty good on clay too, and that is about it. Shriver was utter garbage on clay, as was Durie, Jordan, Potter, Bunge, and most of that eras top 10 and top 15 players of Martina's era of frequent clay participation and success of 81-87. And she still achieved significantly less than Sanchez on the surface.

There is no possible case for putting Martina over Sanchez on clay other than sentiment really. I do think Martina's absolute peak level on clay (which she hit in maybe 4 tournaments her whole career) was higher, but that alone isnt enough to justify a higher ranking, otherwise Safin would rank higher than Djokovic all time on hard courts.

 

[jaystarhair]

As for the thread question Court EASILY. Court has 5 Roland Garros titles, and Martina has 2. That is without even mentioning Court probably attains even more without peak years she missed with various pregnancy leaves. Martina missed RG from 76-80 but she wasnt much of a contender to win on the surface in a fully attended field (in 76-78 everyone was skipping it) anyway. The only years of those she even would have had a shot were 78 and 79, and only then in the really unlikely event Chris somehow went out in a huge upset either year, which would leave Martina as one of 3 or 4 most plausible winners than those 2 years. 76, early 77, and 80 she wouldnt have even been on the radar in the form she was in, and struggling at the time even on her preferred surfaces.

Court also played in a far stronger clay court era than Martina did. You had Richey, Ann Jones, Lesley Turner, Goolagong, all excellent and RG title caliber clay courters. She also had Evert at the end of her career. Martina as already mentioned in my previous coach had Chris and Hana, and that was it. Yet she still achieved more and was a more consistent force and achieved a ton more on the surface.

 

[MLRoy]

Why is Court's last successful slam year more important than any other successful slam year? Why utilize a top ten list at all, when half of the players on them were not threats on clay?

I can't figure out why is a 'top ten list' developed on four surfaces of play, compiled from only one isolated year of each of their careers, the 'right data' when we are comparing entire careers and only one surface?

Well, I wasn't going to compare every year of her career to ever year of navratilova's career. I've got 2 kids, a sick old dog, an elderly mother, cooking, cleaning, etc., I don't have the time/energy for something that superfluous. If you have the time to compile lists that specific, I'm envious. But, they'll always be a partial element to evaluating this kind of data. Some people think playing on clay is more difficult than any other surface, so victories there deserve more quality points. Ditto for grass. There's also a maxim about stating the obvious: if Player C won 8 major clay tourneys, and Player N won 2 major clay tourneys... I had to get my Bud Collins Tennis Encyclodedia, look up the top ten for those years, type it here, arrange them manually/neatly, even though both lists came out on top of each other. (I used the above alignment "tools", but maybe they don't like Windows 7, because they wouldn't work for me.) That was more time than I should've used for this.

YES, THEY -- THE TENNIS ORGANIZATIONS OF THE WORLD -- DO NOT CALCULATE WORLD RANKINGS VIA SURFACE. My guess is they figure it's more fair that way, since everyone has to play every surface, eventually, if they want to get anywhere in the rankings. You'll have to take that up with them. B-bye.

 

[BTURNER]

Well, I wasn't going to compare every year of her career to ever year of navratilova's career. I've got 2 kids, a sick old dog, an elderly mother, cooking, cleaning, etc., I don't have the time/energy for something that superfluous. If you have the time to compile lists that specific, I'm envious. But, they'll always be a partial element to evaluating this kind of data. Some people think playing on clay is more difficult than any other surface, so victories there deserve more quality points. Ditto for grass. There's also a maxim about stating the obvious: if Player C won 8 major clay tourneys, and Player N won 2 major clay tourneys... I had to get my Bud Collins Tennis Encyclodedia, look up the top ten for those years, type it here, arrange them manually/neatly, even though both lists came out on top of each other. (I used the above alignment "tools", but maybe they don't like Windows 7, because they wouldn't work for me.) That was more time than I should've used for this.

YES, THEY -- THE TENNIS ORGANIZATIONS OF THE WORLD -- DO NOT CALCULATE WORLD RANKINGS VIA SURFACE. My guess is they figure it's more fair that way, since everyone has to play every surface, eventually, if they want to get anywhere in the rankings. You'll have to take that up with them. B-bye.

I would take them up with them, if I was taking issue with the existence of player rankings or the standards they used to create them. They are wonderful tools, but not suited for this purpose hence my criticism of your applying them to this subject.

 

[DMan]

I was trying to remember how I knew Navratilova served & volleyed against Richey at the '73 FO. I found my favorite tennis book, Bud Collins' Tennis Encyclopedia (3rd ed). I know everyone on this thread/forum loves tennis. If you don't have it, get it. You won't regret it.

So, I looked-up "1973", but not a word about that Richey-Navratilova match. Collins devoted most of that year's commentary to Nikki Pilic's situation, and aftermath. And the rigged Riggs-King match.

My Bud Collins Encyclopedia includes this about Martina's 1973 French Open: 'She attracted notice at 16 in Paris, the French Open of 1973, by serve-and-volleying a clay specialist, and former champ, no. 5 seeded Nancy Richey to defeat, reaching the quarters unseeded.'

Interesting note: Navratilova scored a win over Richey on clay before Chris Evert did! Chris wasn't able to beat Richey at all - even on clay - until October 1973.

In those days there were less clay tourneys it seems. I know there were more grass tourneys, other than 3/4 slams. But Smith-Court won 5 FOs, and 3 IOs. Navratilova won 2 FOs. Big difference, WTT notwithstanding. Court was also playing WTT, past her prime or not. Mima Jousavic & V. Ruzici winning during the WTT years says A LOT.

What days versus what days? 1973 vs 1983? Other years? Whether Margaret Court played WTT, in or past her prime, HAS NO BEARING ON WHETHER SHE OR NAVRATILOVA is the better clay court player. Or even which one is more accomplished. WTT was a one set exo competition.
As for Mima Jausovec (1977) and Virginia Ruzici (1978) winning the French Open, the tournament was open to any player who wanted to compete. WTT or not. And for the record, Ruzici (1980) and Jausovec (1983 - the year every top women played in a 128 draw) reached the French Open final, when WTT was defunct. Both lost handily to Chris. But then nearly everyone lost handily to Chris Evert on clay!

As far as their semis & finals competition, you can't really compare. For what ever reason, even though grass courts were more plentiful, including 3 out of the 4 slams, the '60s had a couple of exceptional baseliners (who could come to the net and volley well, unlike NOW). So, while they may not have been the 2nd seed, Court actually had more "quality" clay court competition, imvho, than Martina. Court beat Ann "Centre Court" Jones once, Turner once, Chris once, Bueno once, and Helga Masthoff (great forehand). Okay, Bueno wasn't a baseliner, but the other chicks were. Throw in Richey, Durr, Heldman, and Melville, and that's eight clay court experts to worry about; whereas Navratilova only had to worry about Evert at the FO ("only").

The depth in women's tennis was exponentially higher in the 1980s than in the later 1960s and early 1970s. Especially for clay court players. As there were more grass court events than clay in Court's era, there were fewer top quality clay court players. Lesley Turner was a formidable clay courter in her day. So was Bueno. As was Nancy Richey. Durr, Heldman and Melville were fine clay court players - not top quality though. Richey and Court split their 2 French encounters; Margaret edging Nancy in 1969, and Nancy thrashing Mags in 1966.

Chris Evert - the queen of clay herself, has often been quoted as saying that when she first appeared on tour, there just weren't that many good clay courters. And Chris was talking about the early 1970s. As more European women (by mid to late 1970s) competed on the tour, the number of better clay courters increased. That's Navratilova's era.

Martina reached the French QF in her first attempt; And again in 1974. In 1975, she reached the final of the French, and Italian, at age 18. Navratilova didn't play the French again until 1981. And won it in 1982 and 1984. To be fair, Navratilova had her share of disappointing/surprising losses at the French (1981 QF Hanika; 1983 4R Horvath - her only loss of the year!; 1988 Zvereva 4R). She also was in the finals 5 of 6 years from 1982-1987, winning twice, and losing three close matches to Evert ( 7 time champ and Clay GOAT) and Graf ( 6 time champ and 2nd Clay GOAT). Not so bad.

Navratilova and Court are the only women to beat Evert in a French final. Court edged Chris, playing in her 1st ever major final and choking away in the final set, 6-7,7-6,6-4. Only time Court was able to beat Chris on clay. Navratilova beat Evert in the 1984 French final 6-3,6-1, when Chris was defending champ, and had only lost a whopping 6 times in 12 years on clay prior to that match. Martina would go on to beat Chris again at the French, in the 1987 semis 6-2,6-2 (when Evert was again the defending champion).

Navratilova was not likely to win the French the years she didn't compete: 1976-1980. Court was the more accomplished clay courter in terms of career tournament wins, and at the French. But I say Navratilova's two French Open wins and 4 final round appearances - only losing to Evert and Graf, are nearly impressive as Court's record.

And don't forget, the only time Court and Navratilova ever played on clay was at the 1975 US Open, when it was on Har Tru. Navratilova won handily 6-2,6-4.

You know what the biggest surprise to me was looking at the finalists over the years of France? That other great baseliner from the 1970s, Austin, never made it to the final!

Interesting factoid, but irrelevant when it comes to comparing Court and Navratilova. Austin couldn't be bothered to play the French all that often (and risk getting crushed by Chrissie or Martina!).

This, I'm sure, will illuminate my competition point: the top tens of 1973 (31 yr old Court's last great slam year that also includes some of her competition from the '60s), and 1983 (26 yr old Navratilova's heyday):

1973: 1983:

1. Court 1. Navratilova
2. King 2. Evert-Lloyd
3. Goolagong 3. "Pammie" Shriver
4. Evert 4. Jaeger
5. Casals 5. Durie
6. Wade 6. Turnbull
7. Melville 7. Mandlikova
8. Richey-Gunter 8. Temesvari
9. Heldman 9. Hanika
10. Masthoff 10. Jordan

Sorry the lists came out on top of each other. I'm SURE BJK would've loved to have been that close to Chris, but I spaced them appropriately originally. You get the idea. LOOK AT THOSE 2 LISTS! What a difference 10 yrs makes! I've seen all 20 players play. Twelve in person, and the rest on TV/video.

For me, this illuminated NOTHING. And only muddied whatever point you think you were trying to make. Why compare 73 to 83? Why not 72 to 82, 74 to 84? 71 to 86? or 76 to 81? What's the reason/rationale for 1973 vs 1983 and how does it prove/highlight/illustrate why Court could/should be rated over Navratilova on clay?

In the '73 list 9 were slam finalists, and 7 were slam winners. Every one was good enough, imvho, to win a slam. Look at that pathetic '83 list. It looks like today's top ten minus Chris and Martina. How Durie can be a top 5 world player ANY year defies logic. She wasn't good enough to hold Wade's jockstrap, as far as I'm concerned! (Yeah, I've got a way with a phrase. A bad way. ;^)B Fun thread. Thanks.

Apparently you're not that familiar with women's tennis history. Look up Durie's 1983 record. She was a French (on clay) SF and US Open SF, as well as Australian Open QF. She won 2 tournaments, reached the final of another, and thoroughly deserved her #5 ranking that year.

 

[MLRoy]

My Bud Collins Encyclopedia includes this about Martina's 1973 French Open: 'She attracted notice at 16 in Paris, the French Open of 1973, by serve-and-volleying a clay specialist, and former champ, no. 5 seeded Nancy Richey to defeat, reaching the quarters unseeded.'

Interesting note: Navratilova scored a win over Richey on clay before Chris Evert did! Chris wasn't able to beat Richey at all - even on clay - until October 1973.




What days versus what days? 1973 vs 1983? Other years? Whether Margaret Court played WTT, in or past her prime, HAS NO BEARING ON WHETHER SHE OR NAVRATILOVA is the better clay court player. Or even which one is more accomplished. WTT was a one set exo competition.
As for Mima Jausovec (1977) and Virginia Ruzici (1978) winning the French Open, the tournament was open to any player who wanted to compete. WTT or not. And for the record, Ruzici (1980) and Jausovec (1983 - the year every top women played in a 128 draw) reached the French Open final, when WTT was defunct. Both lost handily to Chris. But then nearly everyone lost handily to Chris Evert on clay!




The depth in women's tennis was exponentially higher in the 1980s than in the later 1960s and early 1970s. Especially for clay court players. As there were more grass court events than clay in Court's era, there were fewer top quality clay court players. Lesley Turner was a formidable clay courter in her day. So was Bueno. As was Nancy Richey. Durr, Heldman and Melville were fine clay court players - not top quality though. Richey and Court split their 2 French encounters; Margaret edging Nancy in 1969, and Nancy thrashing Mags in 1966.

Chris Evert - the queen of clay herself, has often been quoted as saying that when she first appeared on tour, there just weren't that many good clay courters. And Chris was talking about the early 1970s. As more European women (by mid to late 1970s) competed on the tour, the number of better clay courters increased. That's Navratilova's era.

Martina reached the French QF in her first attempt; And again in 1974. In 1975, she reached the final of the French, and Italian, at age 18. Navratilova didn't play the French again until 1981. And won it in 1982 and 1984. To be fair, Navratilova had her share of disappointing/surprising losses at the French (1981 QF Hanika; 1983 4R Horvath - her only loss of the year!; 1988 Zvereva 4R). She also was in the finals 5 of 6 years from 1982-1987, winning twice, and losing three close matches to Evert ( 7 time champ and Clay GOAT) and Graf ( 6 time champ and 2nd Clay GOAT). Not so bad.

Navratilova and Court are the only women to beat Evert in a French final. Court edged Chris, playing in her 1st ever major final and choking away in the final set, 6-7,7-6,6-4. Only time Court was able to beat Chris on clay. Navratilova beat Evert in the 1984 French final 6-3,6-1, when Chris was defending champ, and had only lost a whopping 6 times in 12 years on clay prior to that match. Martina would go on to beat Chris again at the French, in the 1987 semis 6-2,6-2 (when Evert was again the defending champion).

Navratilova was not likely to win the French the years she didn't compete: 1976-1980. Court was the more accomplished clay courter in terms of career tournament wins, and at the French. But I say Navratilova's two French Open wins and 4 final round appearances - only losing to Evert and Graf, are nearly impressive as Court's record.

And don't forget, the only time Court and Navratilova ever played on clay was at the 1975 US Open, when it was on Har Tru. Navratilova won handily 6-2,6-4.




Interesting factoid, but irrelevant when it comes to comparing Court and Navratilova. Austin couldn't be bothered to play the French all that often (and risk getting crushed by Chrissie or Martina!).




For me, this illuminated NOTHING. And only muddied whatever point you think you were trying to make. Why compare 73 to 83? Why not 72 to 82, 74 to 84? 71 to 86? or 76 to 81? What's the reason/rationale for 1973 vs 1983 and how does it prove/highlight/illustrate why Court could/should be rated over Navratilova on clay?



Apparently you're not that familiar with women's tennis history. Look up Durie's 1983 record. She was a French (on clay) SF and US Open SF, as well as Australian Open QF. She won 2 tournaments, reached the final of another, and thoroughly deserved her #5 ranking that year.

So, what's the conclusion of your essay...? I already answered the year comparison question. I've seen Durie play. Does Court get extra points for giving birth, then beating Chris on clay?

The problem with "proving" something like this is what do you consider "proof"...? So much of your, mine & BTurner's arguments are what we individually consider important. I've stated why I think Court is a better clay court player than Navratilova, but I haven't seen your or Turner's argument FOR Navratilova -- if that's YOUR opinion. I think the bottom-line is number of big clay tourney wins. I consider the French and Italy the 2 most important during their careers. If you want to consider others, great. Let me know. I wish I had more time to waste on this, but I don't. I found your argument as underwhelming as you found mine.

 

[MLRoy]

The

I would take them up with them, if I was taking issue with the existence of player rankings or the standards they used to create them. They are wonderful tools, but not suited for this purpose hence my criticism of your applying them to this subject.

The reason I used those 2 lists was to show the competition Court played against versus Navratilova's. True, MN had to contend with the greatest clay court player of all-time, so maybe a Jones, Richey & Turner equals an Evert. I don't know. I'd have to think about that.

 

[MLRoy]

I'm sure this won't "compute", either...

 

[BTURNER]

So, what's the conclusion of your essay...? I already answered the year comparison question. I've seen Durie play. Does Court get extra points for giving birth, then beating Chris on clay?

The problem with "proving" something like this is what do you consider "proof"...? So much of your, mine & BTurner's arguments are what we individually consider important. I've stated why I think Court is a better clay court player than Navratilova, but I haven't seen your or Turner's argument FOR Navratilova -- if that's YOUR opinion. I think the bottom-line is number of big clay tourney wins. I consider the French and Italy the 2 most important during their careers. If you want to consider others, great. Let me know. I wish I had more time to waste on this, but I don't. I found your argument as underwhelming as you found mine.

You should reread my OP. You are making an assumption that does not accurately reflect my views, when I said I do not fault your conclusion, but your evidence (the top ten lists), I really meant just that. the red clay record clearly supports your view on the numbers themselves. Margaret won the titles on the crushed clay to justify that conclusion because she entered more and succeeded more at RG, Rome and Berlin than Martina. I keep asking about the GREEN CLAY because while it is clay, it plays differently, to see if there is balance there but I am getting nowhere with respect to Court and American clay.

This I know. At Family circle cup Martina reached the finals five times, winning four of the five. She lost to Evert in '75, but beat Jaeger in 83, Austin in 84, Sabatini in 88, and Capriati in 90. At Amelia Island, she reached the finals four times. She beat Mandlikova in 80, Evert in 84, and Sabatini in 88, and lost to Evert in 81 At the V. Slims of Houston post 1984 when it switched from indoor to clay, Martina was a finalist 3 times beating Elise Burgen in 85, but losing to Evert in 87 and 88. Now that is a very impressive record on green har tru clay with fine clay court competitors in those finals. The first two tournaments had very competitive draws for that era, and she is winning more that she entered than not.

I just don't know about Courts record on American clay beyond a series of losses to Evert Charlotte NC 7-6,7-6, US clay championships 6-3,7-6 and Navratilova US Open 75 QF 6-2, 6-4. That is not a comenserate record to Martina's on green clay at all. Soo there we are, Margaret has done markedly better in Europe but Martina has had credible success there. Martina has done very well over here, with no solid evidence that Court has done squat but lose- so far.

I am not seeing this as a clear win for Margaret because I do NOT conclude that either woman faced great clay court competition beyond a couple of names. I am no more impressed by your list for Margaret than you are by mine for Navratilova.

* there is a reference to a Court win at Hilton Head over Evert in their head to head, but that tournament was the World Invitational in September of 73, played on hard courts.

 

[BTURNER]

You should reread my OP. You are making an assumption that does not accurately reflect my views, when I said I do not fault your conclusion, but your evidence (the top ten lists), I really meant just that. the red clay record clearly supports your view on the numbers themselves. Margaret won the titles on the crushed clay to justify that conclusion because she entered more and succeeded more at RG, Rome and Berlin than Martina. I keep asking about the GREEN CLAY because while it is clay, it plays differently, to see if there is balance there but I am getting nowhere with respect to Court and American clay.

This I know. At Family circle cup Martina reached the finals five times, winning four of the five. She lost to Evert in '75, but beat Jaeger in 83, Austin in 84, Sabatini in 88, and Capriati in 90. At Amelia Island, she reached the finals four times. She beat Mandlikova in 80, Evert in 84, and Sabatini in 88, and lost to Evert in 81 At the V. Slims of Houston post 1984 when it switched from indoor to clay, Martina was a finalist 3 times beating Elise Burgen in 85, but losing to Evert in 87 and 88. Now that is a very impressive record on green har tru clay with fine clay court competitors in those finals. The first two tournaments had very competitive draws for that era, and she is winning more that she entered than not.

I just don't know about Courts record on American clay beyond a series of losses to Evert Charlotte NC 7-6,7-6, US clay championships 6-3,7-6 and Navratilova US Open 75 QF 6-2, 6-4. That is not a comenserate record to Martina's on green clay at all. Soo there we are, Margaret has done markedly better in Europe but Martina has had credible success there. Martina has done very well over here, with no solid evidence that Court has done squat but lose- so far.

I am not seeing this as a clear win for Margaret because I do NOT conclude that either woman faced great clay court competition beyond a couple of names. I am no more impressed by your list for Margaret than you are by mine for Navratilova.

* there is a reference to a Court win at Hilton Head over Evert in their head to head, but that tournament was the World Invitational in September of 73, played on hard courts.

To continue, At RG both women got to the same number of finals. Margaret tended to win them and Martina tended to lose them, but Court only had to face GOAT clay courter Evert in one, beating her in 3 sets. Martina faced her in four of her six finals, losing 3 of those 4 all in 3 sets. she also gets to boast two slaughters of Evert at RG. both Court and Navratilova have a few early losses as well at RG.

That really leaves us to compare those Italians and Germans for Court on red clay in Europe with those Amelia Islands and Hilton Heads on green clay for Martina here in the States.

 

[DMan]

The

The reason I used those 2 lists was to show the competition Court played against versus Navratilova's. True, MN had to contend with the greatest clay court player of all-time, so maybe a Jones, Richey & Turner equals an Evert. I don't know. I'd have to think about that.

Hmmmm.......you have to think about Ann Jones, Nancy Richey and Lesley Turner each being equal to Evert on clay?
Or collectively as a whole?

Neither makes sense, OF COURSE! And my money would be on Evert if Jones, Richey, and Turner were all on one side of the court at the same time, against Chris all by herself, on the other side ; - }

Sane, rational comparisons are apples vs apples. Or Everts vs Turners. Not one apple vs 3 lemons, i.e., Chris Evert vs Ann Jones + Nancy Richey + Lesley Turner. It's a Donald Trump-esque method of obscuring the facts and trying to make a point, or argue around something that just isn't there. And if there is any person on this planet who claims to know anything about tennis, and states they have to think about Chris Evert > Nancy Richey, Ann Jones, and/or Lesley Turner, the ignorance is well......staggering.

Two lists showing Court v Navratilova's competition. Hmmm..... Yes, Court won the 1973 French Open, beating Evert in the finals. And NO, she doesn't get extra points for birthing a baby prior to that year. But Navratilova didn't win the French in 1983, so why use that year? 1983 was Navratilova's most dominant. She lost 1 time, and won 16 of 17 tournaments; Evert won 6 tournaments. Didn't leave many chances for other players to win a whole lot.

Why not use 1982 or 1984, the years Navratilova won the French? Particularly 1984, the last time Martina won the French. And don't forget that both times Martina won the French, she crushed the defending champion (and to boot, she also routed Chris 6-2,6-2 in the 1987 semis when Chris was defending champ). In 1982 semis, Martina crushed defending champ Hana Mandlikova 6-0, 6-2; in 1984 Martina crushed defending champ Chris in the finals 6-3,6-1. So on 3 occasions, Martina whipped the Roland Garros defending champ with a loss of 10 games total in 6 sets. Bonus points for that?

Durie had a career year in 1983. Nothing like Wade's career year in 1977. However, Wade finished #2 in 1977, Durie finished 1983 in #5. Both rankings perfectly and accurately reflect their accomplishments for that particular year. Carrying jockstraps didn't factor into rankings either year.

 

[DMan]

I'm sure this won't "compute", either...

It computes for me nicely! Would 15 year old amateur Chris Evert beating Grand Slammer Court 7-6,7-6 in Charlotte NC in 1970 compute for you? How could one of the greatest ever clay courters lose to a 15 year old amateur, in straight sets, on any surface???????????????????????????????

 

[DMan]

So, what's the conclusion of your essay...? I already answered the year comparison question. I've seen Durie play. Does Court get extra points for giving birth, then beating Chris on clay?

The problem with "proving" something like this is what do you consider "proof"...? So much of your, mine & BTurner's arguments are what we individually consider important. I've stated why I think Court is a better clay court player than Navratilova, but I haven't seen your or Turner's argument FOR Navratilova -- if that's YOUR opinion. I think the bottom-line is number of big clay tourney wins. I consider the French and Italy the 2 most important during their careers. If you want to consider others, great. Let me know. I wish I had more time to waste on this, but I don't. I found your argument as underwhelming as you found mine.

I'll go by H2H.

FACT:
Navratilova def Court 6-2,6-4 QF 1975 US Open on CLAY

FACT:
Career H2H on clay:
Navratilova 1 Court 0

YOUR bottom line is number of "big clay tourney wins". And you get to determine 'big clay tourneys.' How convenient?! How many Hilton Heads or Amelia Islands did Court win? NONE. How many top 10 players competed in Rome or Berlin in Maggie's heydey? vs. how many top tenners to Martina had to contend with in winning 4 Hilton Heads and 3 Amelia Islands?

The Italian open was one of the most important tournaments during Martina's career? Her career was 1973-1994. Navratilova reached the Italian Open final in 1974.......and 20 years later as well!! Lost both times. But I'm struggling to recall all those great Italian Open women's events in 1976, 1977, 1978, or 1985 or 1986 for that matter. Refresh my memory darling. Just how great was the Italian Open in those years?!

Life is good for me! It always is. How is it for you?

 

[Boaty McBoatface]

I'm sure this won't "compute", either...

There's a fascinating backstory to this famous match that involves Martina Navratilova, Nancy Lieberman and Navratilova being awake all night til 6am on the day of the final. I can't post it on PG website like this but you can read about it in Lieberman's autobiography (try google too).

 

[BTURNER]

From what I can tell, the biggest difference between Court's record and Martina, is the impact of Evert's presence in the finals of 75, 85, and 86 ( or Graf in 87). Each time Navratilova lost a three set final, when Court won virtually all of hers against less elite finalists. Beyond that, there was nothing of merit between them but an ocean and the material that was crushed under their shoes where they thrived.

I call it a draw.

 

[MLRoy]

There's a fascinating backstory to this famous match that involves Martina Navratilova, Nancy Lieberman and Navratilova being awake all night til 6am on the day of the final. I can't post it on PG website like this but you can read about it in Lieberman's autobiography (try google too).

Thank you! I'll look that up. The first thing I thought of were lines of blow and "oodles" of lesbian sex, which I guess is the natural reaction. It was before the final of this particular match?! Wow, what did she expect? Maybe she thought, what's the use, it's clay, Evert's going to win, I'm not even a better clay court player than Margaret...

Now, before I look it up -- never heard anything about this match before I saw this on YT -- was Nancy & Martina's "preparation" anything Margaret Court would approve of...? All night Mass?! Probably NO, unless it was a Black Mass... ;^)B

 

[MLRoy]

I'll go by H2H.

FACT:
Navratilova def Court 6-2,6-4 QF 1975 US Open on CLAY

FACT:
Career H2H on clay:
Navratilova 1 Court 0

YOUR bottom line is number of "big clay tourney wins". And you get to determine 'big clay tourneys.' How convenient?! How many Hilton Heads or Amelia Islands did Court win? NONE. How many top 10 players competed in Rome or Berlin in Maggie's heydey? vs. how many top tenners to Martina had to contend with in winning 4 Hilton Heads and 3 Amelia Islands?

The Italian open was one of the most important tournaments during Martina's career? Her career was 1973-1994. Navratilova reached the Italian Open final in 1974.......and 20 years later as well!! Lost both times. But I'm struggling to recall all those great Italian Open women's events in 1976, 1977, 1978, or 1985 or 1986 for that matter. Refresh my memory darling. Just how great was the Italian Open in those years?!

Life is good for me! It always is. How is it for you?

FACT:
Margaret Court turned 33 in 1975, and had already given birth at least once.
Martina was 19 in 1975, and thoughts of turkey basters hadn't even entered her mind, as far as I know.

FACT:
Court won FIVE (5) French Opens, and THREE (3) Italian Opens.
Navratilova won TWO (2) French Opens, and ZERO (0) Italian Opens.

Court: 8
Navratilova: 2

I'm glad "life is good" for you. I'd hate to interact with you if it were going badly. Enjoy the summer!

 

[BTURNER]

FACT:
Margaret Court turned 33 in 1975, and had already given birth at least once.
Martina was 19 in 1975, and thoughts of turkey basters hadn't even entered her mind, as far as I know.

FACT:
Court won FIVE (5) French Opens, and THREE (3) Italian Opens.
Navratilova won TWO (2) French Opens, and ZERO (0) Italian Opens.

Court: 8
Navratilova: 2

I'm glad "life is good" for you. I'd hate to interact with you if it were going badly. Enjoy the summer!

I did not write an OP comparing their respective European clay court records. I wrote one to compare their cumulative European and American clay records. This reply pretends that there never was an American clay court circuit at all. And that circuit has a whole set of facts that are equally relevant.

 

[MLRoy]

I did not write an OP comparing their respective European clay court records. I wrote one to compare their cumulative European and American clay records. This reply pretends that there never was an American clay court circuit at all. And that circuit has a whole set of facts that are equally relevant.

I just chose the top 2 clay court tourneys during the year. I don't have the records for the US clay circuit or the German Open. Only the US Clay Court tourney that Nancy Richey won 6 years in a row. I don't think either Court or Navratilova won it, but I'm not sure. You and dman can look that up if you want. If you think it's "relevant" then include it in your argument.

Usually I agree with most everything you post. But when I first saw this post, I thought: why is this even a question? Then I read your argument, and it didn't make sense to me. It was more emotional than logical, as were your retorts. So, I thought about it. Why, what's behind this, I wondered. And then I think I came up with the answer: you're pissed-off at Court for being homophobic, and who better to try to make her look bad than a lesbian like Navratilova.

And, I don't blame you for hating Court for her remarks. She really isn't very Christian, or compassionate, is she? She IS a b****. When I was a kid, my father used to take me and my brother to WTT matches, and in the 1970s, they were great, because most of the top players played for teams. One time we saw Court play. At half-time the players signed autographs, so he stood in line for Court's. He got a couple good autographs over those brief few years ('74-'76); Chris Evert, among others. So, when he came back and showed me her autograph (I think she signed a program. I gotta call him and relive that moment!), I asked him what she was like, and as quick as lightning he said, "she's a b****". He was only 12 or 13, but I def believed him. He was a very shrewd kid, and even then could read people very well. So, yes, she's a total b****. My brother knew it, I knew it. She's got "B****" written all over her. And I don't even understand why hardcore Bible-thumpers like her hate gays. You'd think since she associated/competed with lesbians her whole career that she'd be over it.

They always quote that passage about a "man sleeping with another man", but I've noticed there are usually quotes in the Bible that refute other quotes. I'm not a Biblical scholar, and have no interest in being one. When ever I encounter a Bible-quoter online, I always remind them, among other things that the Bible isn't God's diary. It was an edited book "published" by an emperor with his own axe to grind. I won't even get into the anonymous authors of much of it, Psalms, for example.

So, that's the explanation I came up to explain your posts on this thread. But, the lesbian isn't a better tennis player than the homophobe. Not even on clay. And while I don't agree with Court's POV, I admire her for voicing her unpopular opinion. It's not easy to do when you're a mortal online like us. Being famous, and allowing yourself to be a potential target, physically as well as intellectually, as she's done is really scary to me. She may not be nice, but she's tough as nails. Condescending, and a little brave.

And, I LOVE that for once someone's standing up to the King/Navratilova mafia. They could make the number 1 male player in the world capitulate & "recant" his dissenting opinion, but they can't make her do that. And I think that's great. They may be responsible for the big prize money women now receive, as well as contributed to the sport's popularity, but they've also had other less noble motivations I won't get into here, that have really hurt the game. We're seeing the seeds they've sown on the women's side now. So, FUnCK them!

If I'm wrong about your motive, I apologize. This is the last post on this subject I'm writing. I'm enjoying Wimbledon so far. You? I think Vandeweghe's going to win, God help us. I think there may be an upset on the men's side too. Hope so. Take care.

 

[BTURNER]

I just chose the top 2 clay court tourneys during the year. I don't have the records for the US clay circuit or the German Open. Only the US Clay Court tourney that Nancy Richey won 6 years in a row. I don't think either Court or Navratilova won it, but I'm not sure. You and dman can look that up if you want. If you think it's "relevant" then include it in your argument.

Usually I agree with most everything you post. But when I first saw this post, I thought: why is this even a question? Then I read your argument, and it didn't make sense to me. It was more emotional than logical, as were your retorts. So, I thought about it. Why, what's behind this, I wondered. And then I think I came up with the answer: you're pissed-off at Court for being homophobic, and who better to try to make her look bad than a lesbian like Navratilova.

And, I don't blame you for hating Court for her remarks. She really isn't very Christian, or compassionate, is she? She IS a b****. When I was a kid, my father used to take me and my brother to WTT matches, and in the 1970s, they were great, because most of the top players played for teams. One time we saw Court play. At half-time the players signed autographs, so he stood in line for Court's. He got a couple good autographs over those brief few years ('74-'76); Chris Evert, among others. So, when he came back and showed me her autograph (I think she signed a program. I gotta call him and relive that moment!), I asked him what she was like, and as quick as lightning he said, "she's a b****". He was only 12 or 13, but I def believed him. He was a very shrewd kid, and even then could read people very well. So, yes, she's a total b****. My brother knew it, I knew it. She's got "B****" written all over her. And I don't even understand why hardcore Bible-thumpers like her hate gays. You'd think since she associated/competed with lesbians her whole career that she'd be over it.

They always quote that passage about a "man sleeping with another man", but I've noticed there are usually quotes in the Bible that refute other quotes. I'm not a Biblical scholar, and have no interest in being one. When ever I encounter a Bible-quoter online, I always remind them, among other things that the Bible isn't God's diary. It was an edited book "published" by an emperor with his own axe to grind. I won't even get into the anonymous authors of much of it, Psalms, for example.

So, that's the explanation I came up to explain your posts on this thread. But, the lesbian isn't a better tennis player than the homophobe. Not even on clay. And while I don't agree with Court's POV, I admire her for voicing her unpopular opinion. It's not easy to do when you're a mortal online like us. Being famous, and allowing yourself to be a potential target, physically as well as intellectually, as she's done is really scary to me. She may not be nice, but she's tough as nails. Condescending, and a little brave.

And, I LOVE that for once someone's standing up to the King/Navratilova mafia. They could make the number 1 male player in the world capitulate & "recant" his dissenting opinion, but they can't make her do that. And I think that's great. They may be responsible for the big prize money women now receive, as well as contributed to the sport's popularity, but they've also had other less noble motivations I won't get into here, that have really hurt the game. We're seeing the seeds they've sown on the women's side now. So, FUnCK them!

If I'm wrong about your motive, I apologize. This is the last post on this subject I'm writing. I'm enjoying Wimbledon so far. You? I think Vandeweghe's going to win, God help us. I think there may be an upset on the men's side too. Hope so. Take care.

I did not bring her politics into this thread, you just did. 1. I do not hate Margaret Court the player. I completely separate the player from the pastor. 2. I have been a devout defender of her reputation at a GOAT candidate for years on this forum. 3. My posts in this thread are not 'emotional'. 4. You don't have to know the American clay court circuit. I posted Martina's successes above thread. You just ignored them.

FACT at Family Circle Cup Martina reached the finals 5 times, winning 4 of the 5. She beat Jaeger in 82, Austin in 83, Sabatini in 88, and Capriati in 90. She lost one to Evert.
FACT At Amelia Island, Martina reached the finals 4 times and won 3 of those 4. She beat Mandlikova in 80, Evert in 84, and Sabatini in 88, and lost to Evert in 81
FACT at RG Martina reached the finals 6 times, winning 2 of those 6. 75, She beat Jaeger in 82, and Evert in 84, She lost to Evert in the 75,85,86 finals and lost to Graf in 87.
FACT at the Italian Martina reached the finals 4 times. She lost to Evert in 74, 75,Seles in 90, and Martinez in 94.

Now my conclusions. Court had the better record on European clay with 8 big titles. Martina had the better record on American clay with 8 big titles . We haven't found any tournament wins yet for Court over here but we have found losses. The biggest difference between their respective records was the presence of Chris Evert as Martina's contemporary. Martina lost 3 RG titles, 2 Italians on red clay and 4 total titles on green clay to Evert ( add the 87 and 88 Houston to the others) Martina also can boast 3 decisive wins over Evert on both red and green clay, more than anyone else in the sport.

But for Evert's constant presence throughout Martina's career, her record would likely be comparable to Margarets. That is not an 'emotional conclusion. It is based on the data that I see.

 

[DMan]

I did not bring her politics into this thread, you just did. 1. I do not hate Margaret Court the player. I completely separate the player from the pastor. 2. I have been a devout defender of her reputation at a GOAT candidate for years on this forum. 3. My posts in this thread are not 'emotional'. 4. You don't have to know the American clay court circuit. I posted Martina's successes above thread. You just ignored them.

FACT at Family Circle Cup Martina reached the finals 5 times, winning 4 of the 5. She beat Jaeger in 83, Austin in 84, Sabatini in 88, and Capriati in 90. She lost one to Evert.
FACT At Amelia Island, Martina reached the finals 4 times and won 3 of those 4. She beat Mandlikova in 80, Evert in 84, and Sabatini in 88, and lost to Evert in 81
FACT at RG Martina reached the finals 6 times, winning 2 of those 6. 75, She beat Jaeger in 82, and Evert in 84, She lost to Evert in the 75,85,86 finals and lost to Graf in 87.
FACT at the Italian Martina reached the finals 4 times. She lost to Evert in 74, 75,Seles in 90, and Martinez in 94.
rest MLRoy, do tell, please
Now my conclusions. Court had the better record on European clay with 8 big titles. Martina had the better record on American clay with 8 big titles . We haven't found any tournament wins yet for Court over here but we have found losses. The biggest difference between their respective records was the presence of Chris Evert as Martina's contemporary. Martina lost 3 RG titles, 2 Italians on red clay and 4 total titles on green clay to Evert ( add the 87 and 88 Houston to the others) Martina also can boast 3 decisive wins over Evert on both red and green clay, more than anyone else in the sport.

But for Evert's constant presence throughout Martina's career, her record would likely be comparable to Margarets. That is not an 'emotional conclusion. It is based on the data that I see.

Wonderful post. Clear, concise. Mature. Well-thought out. (And you're forgiven the very minor factual error w/r/t the years of Navratilova's final round FCC opponents. It was Jaeger in 1982 and Austin in 1983.)

What I've always 'loved' about certain posters is that they cherry-pick facts, statistics, data, and conveniently claim ignorance - as if that's a good thing - when they're called out on it. Such as, "I don't have records for the US Clay circuit or the German Open". [CLUE to CLUELESS: Look it up. It's not so hard!] But then again, when the facts don't support your own argument, why would you want the facts?! That's when you whip out insults and non-sequiturs, and deal in alternative facts and fake news!

PS - I'm STILL waiting to hear about all those GREAT Italian Open tournaments. The star studded, top ranked pack events of yesteryear, specifically 1976, 1977, 1978, 1985, 1986. I mean if the Italian Open is the "2nd most important clay court title in the history of the world for women pros" just who were the GREATEST of all the GREATEST who won the Italian open in those years?!? Darling dearest MLRoy, do tell dear. Do tell. Per favore!!

PPS - Birthing babies. Turkey basters. I know nuthin' bout that stuff. I'm positively red with embarassment just typing this
I don't know what any of that stuff has to do with comparing career records on clay. I go for the straightforward H2H stuff. H2H = Head to head, as in when Martina was on one side of the net and Margaret on the other, and they were playing a professional tennis match. Because Maggie wanted to play. And so did 'Tina. And you know what? NAVRATILOVA def. COURT 6-2,6-4. At the 1975 US Open. Played on clay. Called Har-Tru. It really did happen!!!!! And they didn't give 'Tina extra points because Maggie birthed a baby or two, or that Marty hadn't baked her first Thanksgiving turkey yet. (That IS what you meant by the turkey baster reference, right?........I mean I AM in the right forum to be discussing this? )

 

[DMan]

You should reread my OP. You are making an assumption that does not accurately reflect my views, when I said I do not fault your conclusion, but your evidence (the top ten lists), I really meant just that. the red clay record clearly supports your view on the numbers themselves. Margaret won the titles on the crushed clay to justify that conclusion because she entered more and succeeded more at RG, Rome and Berlin than Martina. I keep asking about the GREEN CLAY because while it is clay, it plays differently, to see if there is balance there but I am getting nowhere with respect to Court and American clay.

This I know. At Family circle cup Martina reached the finals five times, winning four of the five. She lost to Evert in '75, but beat Jaeger in 83, Austin in 84, Sabatini in 88, and Capriati in 90. At Amelia Island, she reached the finals four times. She beat Mandlikova in 80, Evert in 84, and Sabatini in 88, and lost to Evert in 81 At the V. Slims of Houston post 1984 when it switched from indoor to clay, Martina was a finalist 3 times beating Elise Burgen in 85, but losing to Evert in 87 and 88. Now that is a very impressive record on green har tru clay with fine clay court competitors in those finals. The first two tournaments had very competitive draws for that era, and she is winning more that she entered than not.

I just don't know about Courts record on American clay beyond a series of losses to Evert Charlotte NC 7-6,7-6, US clay championships 6-3,7-6 and Navratilova US Open 75 QF 6-2, 6-4. That is not a comenserate record to Martina's on green clay at all. Soo there we are, Margaret has done markedly better in Europe but Martina has had credible success there. Martina has done very well over here, with no solid evidence that Court has done squat but lose- so far.

I am not seeing this as a clear win for Margaret because I do NOT conclude that either woman faced great clay court competition beyond a couple of names. I am no more impressed by your list for Margaret than you are by mine for Navratilova.

* there is a reference to a Court win at Hilton Head over Evert in their head to head, but that tournament was the World Invitational in September of 73, played on hard courts.

Here are some of Court's results on clay in North American tournaments:
1972 US Clay Courts SF: Evert def Court
1972 Canadian Open SF: Wade def Court
1972 North Carolina F: King def Court
1972 VS Championships 1R: JEANNE Evert def Court

1973 VS Jacksonville (aka 'Thank God Chris Evert didn't play this Florida clay event') F Court def Casals
1973 Family Circle Cup Hilton Head QF: Gunter def Court
1973 VS Columbus F: Evert def Court (by default......hmmmmm....Mags wasn't afraid of lil Chrissie, was she?!?)

1975 Family Circle Cup 1r: Marcie Louie def Court (And Chrissie beat Martina in one of the toughest women's events of the year. And Mags lost in the 1R to Marcie Louie. That's bad!)
1975 Canadian Open QF: Fromholtz def Court
1975 Medi Quik Open SF: Evert def Court
1975 US Open QF: Navratilova def Court

There you have it. I see a LOT of losses. And one tournament win. She played in some big tournaments on clay: US Clay Courts, Canadian Open, Family Circle Cup, the Virginia Slims Championships. Maggie didn't do too well, wouldn't you say?

 

[BTURNER]

Here are some of Court's results on clay in North American tournaments:
1972 US Clay Courts SF: Evert def Court
1972 Canadian Open SF: Wade def Court
1972 North Carolina F: King def Court
1972 VS Championships 1R: JEANNE Evert def Court

1973 VS Jacksonville (aka 'Thank God Chris Evert didn't play this Florida clay event') F Court def Casals
1973 Family Circle Cup Hilton Head QF: Gunter def Court
1973 VS Columbus F: Evert def Court (by default......hmmmmm....Mags wasn't afraid of lil Chrissie, was she?!?)

1975 Family Circle Cup 1r: Marcie Louie def Court (And Chrissie beat Martina in one of the toughest women's events of the year. And Mags lost in the 1R to Marcie Louie. That's bad!)
1975 Canadian Open QF: Fromholtz def Court
1975 Medi Quik Open SF: Evert def Court
1975 US Open QF: Navratilova def Court

There you have it. I see a LOT of losses. And one tournament win. She played in some big tournaments on clay: US Clay Courts, Canadian Open, Family Circle Cup, the Virginia Slims Championships. Maggie didn't do too well, wouldn't you say?

Thank-you for helping me here. It took 42 posts to get anything remotely complete on Courts' work over here on green stuff. When I started this thread, it was more about my gut instincts on this topic than a full picture. I expected to see more early round losses in Martina's clay record than actually existed. She had a relatively consistent record of getting into later rounds regardless of clay type.

I also expected to see more tournament wins for Court over here. She really underperformed on Har-tru. I am not concerned by the 1975 results because she had declined markedly by then, but to have 1-7 losing record in finals in 1972 and 1973 ! She lost to several people that she simply shouldn't have. I did notice that you did not post anything earlier than 1972, I only know about that loss in Charlotte NC to Evert. Do you have any other data in 1970, 1971?

Now for revised conclusion based on what you added. . But for Evert's constant presence throughout Martina's career, her record would likely be SUPERIOR to Margaret's depending on how you prioritize an extra win at RG over more versatility. That is not an 'emotional conclusion either.

 

[DMan]

In 1971, Court played no clay events in the US.

Court did win two British clay (or shale, or "Hard courts" as they're known over there) events: London, defeating Durr in the finals. And in the Rothmann's British Hard Courts (played just prior to the French) she beat Goolagong in the finals. The British Hard Court event was a 48 player draw, equivalent of a Tier II WTA event by today's standards. This tournament was bigger in draw, stature, and prize money than the Italian Open that year (won by Virginia Wade, the top seed. Wade was #3 seed in British Hard Court event. But shhhhhh.....don't let on that the Italian Open in the early 1970s wasn't all that some claim it was cracked up to be!)

In 1970, Court won the British Hard Court event, a Tier I tournament equivalent that year. She beat 7th seeded Wade in the finals. Wade beat King in the QF.
Court won the Canadian Open on clay, beating Casals in the finals.
Court lost in the SF of a smaller British clay event in London in May, to Joyce Williams.
Court did NOT play in the very first Virginia Slims tournament in Houston in 1970 (held on clay), nor in the next Slims event in Richmond, also on clay.
But Court did play in the Carolinas Invitational in Charlotte NC in September 1970. She lost to some 15 year old amateur in straight sets 7-6,7-6.

 

[BTURNER]

Just a fascinating reread as we go along. I don't get the data I need to fill in the picture until post #43 and 45.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

I think Navratilova at her very best might have been better, but Court maintained an extremely high level on clay for MUCH longer than Navratilova did, so Court. Court also accomplished much more on the surface.

 

[BTURNER]

In 1971, Court played no clay events in the US.

Court did win two British clay (or shale, or "Hard courts" as they're known over there) events: London, defeating Durr in the finals. And in the Rothmann's British Hard Courts (played just prior to the French) she beat Goolagong in the finals. The British Hard Court event was a 48 player draw, equivalent of a Tier II WTA event by today's standards. This tournament was bigger in draw, stature, and prize money than the Italian Open that year (won by Virginia Wade, the top seed. Wade was #3 seed in British Hard Court event. But shhhhhh.....don't let on that the Italian Open in the early 1970s wasn't all that some claim it was cracked up to be!)

In 1970, Court won the British Hard Court event, a Tier I tournament equivalent that year. She beat 7th seeded Wade in the finals. Wade beat King in the QF.
Court won the Canadian Open on clay, beating Casals in the finals.
Court lost in the SF of a smaller British clay event in London in May, to Joyce Williams.
Court did NOT play in the very first Virginia Slims tournament in Houston in 1970 (held on clay), nor in the next Slims event in Richmond, also on clay.
````But Court did play in the Carolinas Invitational in Charlotte NC in September 1970. She lost to some 15 year old amateur in straight sets 7-6,7-6.

Someone should interview that 15 year old girl and give her back her 15 minutes of fame.

 

[pierceforehands]

Not sure how this is even a discussion. Court has 5 French Open titles, Navratilova has only 2. And if anything Court played in an overall deeper clay field. Navratilova had Evert in her way yes, but assuming the French were a regular event in the 70s too she probably only gains 1 or 2 French Opens even removing Evert (85, and maybe 86), as she only reached the 75 final since nobody but her and Chris played that year. It really is no contest at all.

 

[thrust]

I'll go by H2H.

FACT:
Navratilova def Court 6-2,6-4 QF 1975 US Open on CLAY

FACT:
Career H2H on clay:
Navratilova 1 Court 0

YOUR bottom line is number of "big clay tourney wins". And you get to determine 'big clay tourneys.' How convenient?! How many Hilton Heads or Amelia Islands did Court win? NONE. How many top 10 players competed in Rome or Berlin in Maggie's heydey? vs. how many top tenners to Martina had to contend with in winning 4 Hilton Heads and 3 Amelia Islands?

The Italian open was one of the most important tournaments during Martina's career? Her career was 1973-1994. Navratilova reached the Italian Open final in 1974.......and 20 years later as well!! Lost both times. But I'm struggling to recall all those great Italian Open women's events in 1976, 1977, 1978, or 1985 or 1986 for that matter. Refresh my memory darling. Just how great was the Italian Open in those years?!

Life is good for me! It always is. How is it for you?

FACT IS, that Court won 5 French titles out of 10 entered, she won 3 Italian, 3 German and 3 British Hard Court Titles that were played on clay, all of which shows that Court won at least 14 important clay titles. Martina won, 2 French and perhaps another 1 or 2 on green clay. Also, in 75 Court was a 33 year old mother of TWO CHILEDREN, and well past her peak. `