Need Advice on 5.0 NTRP Rating Bump Tragedy

Chalkdust said:
I'm in this boat since 2019 when I got bumped up to 5.0.
My area has no 5.0 leagues.
When there is a 4.5 league it's just two teams, and some seasons we don't have a 4.5 league at all when not enough players sign up.
So, I don't have the option to play 5.0 league, and I would have been an extra body for 4.5 league were I allowed to play, and some seasons that could have been the difference between having a 4.5 league and not having a 4.5 league.
But of course, USTA has declined my appeals, despite me being a 4.5 lifer who just got bumped up that one occasion, have never actually played 5.0 league, and am mid-50's.
It's all worked out for the best since I've built a great network of playing partners outside of USTA, but just goes to show how common sense is just not that common at least with USTA!
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I plan on playing an occasional 5.0 USTA tourney to get some losses so they will bump me down after a year. I have seen other 5.0 players just disengage entirely, assuming they will be bumped back down after one year. And they stay a 5.0.

You gotta get a loss or two for the algorithm to bump you down, fyi.
 
MarinaHighTennis said:
There used to be a thing where you can have 3 5.0s on a 4.5 team but they have to play line 1. I thought that was a good format bc it sucks when your friends get bumped and now you cant grab food with them after matches, etc.
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This format was used for nationals only in 40+ (because there are no 5.0 40+ leagues, so it ensured that 40+ 5.0s had a 40+ league to play in). For 18+, since there is a 5.0 advancing nationals format, the rule was that you could have a limited number of 5.5s on an 18+ 5.0 roster (with the same line usage restriction), again to ensure that there was some league for 5.5s to play in if they want. I was generally in favor of this format, although it had its weaknesses, too.
 
Hello, everyone. I suspect you got your USTA email yesterday like I did warning that in two weeks the NTRP re-rankings take place.

Here is a link explaining the latest on how I feel about this 4.5 versus 5.0 ranking thing:

"Glumly Waiting for the Verdict"

I suspect others feel the same about 4.0 versus 4.5 or 3.5 versus 4.0. The entire thing can be very frustrating.

I would be curious to hear how others are processing their USTA rankings. My feelings are complex.
 
From your blog:

I have not lost a match since April, and I had some solid victories over strong players.
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What would you have the USTA do with players who win nearly all the time and go on winning streaks like you have? At some point such players should be bumped up a level shouldn't they? If they aren't, is it fair to the at-level players forced to play these above level players?

Level based play has inherit limitations, particularly at the high and low level tails of the curve. It is unfortunate that some areas don't have critical mass for 5.0 flights, but I'm not sure that simply not bumping 4.5s up is the solution. The plus flights were a solution but had their own issues. I was an advocate for them though.
 
RichVentura said:
Hello, everyone. I suspect you got your USTA email yesterday like I did warning that in two weeks the NTRP re-rankings take place.

Here is a link explaining the latest on how I feel about this 4.5 versus 5.0 ranking thing:

"Glumly Waiting for the Verdict"

I suspect others feel the same about 4.0 versus 4.5 or 3.5 versus 4.0. The entire thing can be very frustrating.

I would be curious to hear how others are processing their USTA rankings. My feelings are complex.
Click to expand...
I get the 5.0 bump being the equivalent to being banished to a tennis wasteland. I've been playing USTA team tennis as a 4.5 since 1990 or so and the bump to 5.0 has always been this way, I have seen many tennis buddies bumped to 5.0 and either retired (rare cases), or waited years to re-rate while playing pick up matches and a few of those resorting to tournaments.

I blame the USTA for a lack of creativity to find a space for 5.0's. They market to the masses and maybe they don't see enough numbers in the 5.0 range to worry. Based on my experience they lack effort and creativity to keep 5.0's in the game. When they had the 4.5+ combo mixed with a a few 5.0's I thought that was great, but guess their was enough flack from the 4.5's who couldn't find any 5.0's, and the USTA cratered.

3.5 to 4.0 and 4.0 to 4.5, etc. Although I know some who want to stay for the sake of winning, which I don't think is a good reason, at least those bumps still leave the majority with leagues to play in.

EDIT: Also, USTA has effectively ditched any widespread support of adult tournament tennis. I get that tournaments over a few days is harder for adults to find time for, at the same time league is not for all players. The USTA could try to address increasing tournament play by scheduling "no league play" breaks between seasons to open up that time specifically for tournaments. Tourney directors also need some support as many tennis pros find running adult tournaments time consuming and lack profit. League play is the easy button, so the USTA lazily focuses on the masses.
 
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schmke said:
Agreed. If 4.5s would quit trying to avoid being bumped up (not all are trying, but clearly some do), there would be more 5.0s and there might be a large enough player pool at the level.
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You should do an analysis (similar to your individual player rating reports) and collect signatures here so that it can be raised to USTA.

I am serious, I personally know I could collect plenty of signatures in my region.
 
CiscoPC600 said:
You should do an analysis (similar to your individual player rating reports) and collect signatures here so that it can be raised to USTA.

I am serious, I personally know I could collect plenty of signatures in my region.
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I like this idea in theory. A lot.

But I suspect the reality on the ground is there not terribly many upper level 4.5 players around. Enough to form entire leagues for competitive play?

The difference between a higher and lower level 4.5 is enormous, and the USTA is not very adroit at distinguishing between the two. I suspect the same is true at 4.0 and 3.5 levels. Maybe they need more specific ratings.
 
RichVentura said:
I plan on playing an occasional 5.0 USTA tourney to get some losses so they will bump me down after a year. I have seen other 5.0 players just disengage entirely, assuming they will be bumped back down after one year. And they stay a 5.0.

You gotta get a loss or two for the algorithm to bump you down, fyi.
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You’re clearly a 5.0 player, it’s strange how opposed you are to playing people at your level.
 
Creighton said:
You’re clearly a 5.0 player, it’s strange how opposed you are to playing people at your level.
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Before someone reminds you how to read and points to previous posts: there are no 5.0 leagues where I live. 5.0 land is a tennis Siberia. All three 5.0 players I know have no organized tennis play. Maybe I can play with over and over again.
 
RichVentura said:
Before someone reminds you how to read and points to previous posts: there are no 5.0 leagues where I live. 5.0 land is a tennis Siberia. All three 5.0 players I know have no organized tennis play. Maybe I can play with over and over again.
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  1. Get a little crew of 5.0s/4.5s in your area and play dubs with each other very week. Make fair teams among yourselves. Play for free.
  2. Ventura?? Seems like you're close enough to one of the best spots in the country for >4.5 level tennis to make the drive occasionally. Find a good 5.0 partner and play two or three 5.0/open tournaments a year. (Even a 5.0 L.A. league seems possible if you don't mind making the drive a few times.)
I totally get that it's not ideal, and frustrating. But I think you're in a much better situation than 5.0s in a lot of places in the country.
 
drivophd said:
I don’t think any reasonable person would describe Southern California as “tennis Siberia”.
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Agreed.

He also plays 55+ 9.0 already, and should he be bumped up to 5.0 still can play 9.0, just with a 4.0 partner. He also plays 18+ and 40+ 9.0 Mixed where he can do the same. I don't think his league playing opportunities are entirely gone.
 
Why doesn’t USTA start an Open category local league? Maybe they can exclude ATP/WTA pro players who retired within the last 10 years and active Div 1 college players. Then a national championship would actually mean something at the rec level if it is in the Open category. If all the 5.0s, 5.5s etc. can play together in this Open category and there is the prestige of winning an Open category national title, it might attract more former college players and former pros to playing USTA and there should be enough to form teams in each metropolitan area. Now those players don’t want to play competitively anymore locally due to lack of competition at the rec level except for the few who are willing to travel to play age group Open tournaments. Those would be rec matches worth watching.

During the pandemic, there were many Open UTR tournaments held at my club monthly and they were a blast for spectators as they included many active college players.
 
socallefty said:
Why doesn’t USTA start an Open category local league? Maybe they can exclude pro players who retired within the last 10 years and active college players. Then a national championship would actually mean something at the rec level if it is in the Open category. If all the 5.0s, 5.5s etc. can play together in this Open category and there is the prestige of winning an Open category national title, it might attract more former college players and former pros to playing USTA. Now those players don’t want to play competitively anymore locally due to lack of competition except for the few who are willing to travel to play age group Open tournaments. Those would be rec matches worth watching.

During the pandemic, there were many Open UTR tournaments held at my club monthly and they were a blast for spectators.
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In some areas there are open flights, and I think there may be an invitational in Vegas or something like that for open teams.

Another note is that an adjacent area to Ventura, San Fernando Valley, had an 18+ 5.0 flight with three teams. There was even a 5.0+ flight in a local Fall league.
 
Thank you for suggestion. But I am disinclined to drive 90 minutes to play in San Fernando Valley. Then drive 90 minutes back again. As per my essay I think I’ll just take a 5.0 USTA sabbatical and play with my usual buddies informally. Cheers.
 
I might be a low level 5.0 or whatever, but I still play old man tennis. Driving long distances to play tennis is a non-starter. Even going to sectionals is as much a weekend away with buddies as much as it is tennis.
 
RichVentura said:
I like this idea in theory. A lot.

But I suspect the reality on the ground is there not terribly many upper level 4.5 players around. Enough to form entire leagues for competitive play?

The difference between a higher and lower level 4.5 is enormous, and the USTA is not very adroit at distinguishing between the two. I suspect the same is true at 4.0 and 3.5 levels. Maybe they need more specific ratings.
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Agree with your 4.5 low versus high level analysis. I've seen the same apply to the 5.0's, the low vs. high gap might even be wider. At times when I've seen 5.0 league play in my area, the low 5.0 singles guys who were not as good in doubles as singles would find even getting a spot on a team even harder.

That brings up a whole separate conversation, low level 4.5 or 5.0 singles players who's doubles level is much lower than their singles play. Again, at 4.5 at least a lower level singles player can be found as serviceable to many teams. LOL. Good luck in 2024, I know you'll find opportunities to play despite the USTA.
 
socallefty said:
Why doesn’t USTA start an Open category local league? Maybe they can exclude ATP/WTA pro players who retired within the last 10 years and active Div 1 college players. Then a national championship would actually mean something at the rec level if it is in the Open category. If all the 5.0s, 5.5s etc. can play together in this Open category and there is the prestige of winning an Open category national title, it might attract more former college players and former pros to playing USTA and there should be enough to form teams in each metropolitan area. Now those players don’t want to play competitively anymore locally due to lack of competition at the rec level except for the few who are willing to travel to play age group Open tournaments. Those would be rec matches worth watching.

During the pandemic, there were many Open UTR tournaments held at my club monthly and they were a blast for spectators as they included many active college players.
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They kind of already have this right @schmke ? Some of the ex players from Baylor's natty champ team that had Boris Becker on it (no, not that one, the other one), they got together with some other Dallas and won some 5.5 or 5.0 + national championship years ago.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
They kind of already have this right @schmke ? Some of the ex players from Baylor's natty champ team that had Boris Becker on it (no, not that one, the other one), they got together with some other Dallas and won some 5.5 or 5.0 + national championship years ago.
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I know you ask @schmke. But I dug around on this a few years ago and did find a 5.5+ Open type national championship play. Like you, I was shocked to see the former pros and top college players on some of the rosters. I think the ex-Baylor player you were referring to may have been Benjamin Becker, they also had Benedict Dorsch, I often mixed them up.
 
andfor said:
I know you ask @schmke. But I dug around on this a few years ago and did find a 5.5+ Open type national championship play. Like you, I was shocked to see the former pros and top college players on some of the rosters. I think the ex-Baylor player you were referring to may have been Benjamin Becker, they also had Benedict Dorsch, I often mixed them up.
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Edit : Yeah, that thing, yeah Benjamín Becker , Zoltan Papp played on the USTA team, I'm pretty sure.
 
RichVentura said:
Before someone reminds you how to read and points to previous posts: there are no 5.0 leagues where I live. 5.0 land is a tennis Siberia. All three 5.0 players I know have no organized tennis play. Maybe I can play with over and over again.
Click to expand...
i'm in siberia with you... was cool for a few minutes, to see 5.0C next to my name... but fortunately there is a 5.0 league in my area, so now unexpectedly will be creating a 5.0 team. don't expect to do well in it, as the my local club 5.0 team for example went to nationals last year... but that's the only way i'll be able to compete, and get to my proper level.

side note, the 5.0 team that went to nationals,... they waited 3y for their ratings to expire (ie. 3y ago they also went to nationals, and half their team got bumped up to 5.5)
 
I’m ready for a USTA sabbatical, as I explain here:

www.rjgeib.com

Glumly Waiting for the Verdict - Richard Geib

Or, Time for a USTA Tennis Sabbatical? Almost exactly two years ago I received the totally unexpected news that I would be re-ranked as a 5.0 tennis player in USTA tennis leagues. My world was rocked. I never expected this. And I was looking at being removed from the tennis teams with my buddies...
www.rjgeib.com
 
RichVentura said:
I’m ready for a USTA sabbatical, as I explain here:

www.rjgeib.com

Glumly Waiting for the Verdict - Richard Geib

Or, Time for a USTA Tennis Sabbatical? Almost exactly two years ago I received the totally unexpected news that I would be re-ranked as a 5.0 tennis player in USTA tennis leagues. My world was rocked. I never expected this. And I was looking at being removed from the tennis teams with my buddies...
www.rjgeib.com
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Reading your post and seeing your profile makes me think I might know.. did you and your team play 4.5 sectionals in 2019 and won it 3-2 (one of the matches went to a third set tiebreaker)?
 
Well written blog, they shouldn't bump you just playing doubles, I've seen so many survive bump ups going undefeated in doubles year after year even with sectionals success.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
Well written blog, they shouldn't bump you just playing doubles, I've seen so many survive bump ups going undefeated in doubles year after year even with sectionals success.
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Who knows how the USTA ratings really work? I’m tired of the worry about being bumped up. I’m ready for a break. We shall see.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
Well written blog, they shouldn't bump you just playing doubles, I've seen so many survive bump ups going undefeated in doubles year after year even with sectionals success.
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hehe, to be fair, i did target improving my doubles, to hit my tennis-career-goal of getting bumped to 5.0...
not that i'm bad at singles (especially after losing 50lbs), but i was targeting doubles as my key to the 5.0 promiseland :P
side note, it has helped me get invited to higher level games, that if singles, i'd have no business playing (eg. with 40y+ ex-d1, ex-atp, etc..)
 
RichVentura said:
I’m ready for a USTA sabbatical, as I explain here:

www.rjgeib.com

Glumly Waiting for the Verdict - Richard Geib

Or, Time for a USTA Tennis Sabbatical? Almost exactly two years ago I received the totally unexpected news that I would be re-ranked as a 5.0 tennis player in USTA tennis leagues. My world was rocked. I never expected this. And I was looking at being removed from the tennis teams with my buddies...
www.rjgeib.com
Click to expand...
"...Nobody really knows what the USTA thinks and why..."
if i recall, the USTA goal is *Max Participation*... so if bumping up a few on-edge-4.5-to-5.0 means more people fit in the various bell-curve-buckets, then that collateral loss is acceptable...
 
RichVentura said:
Or excited?
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personally excited to achieve my arbitrary tennis-career goal (set 20y+ ago, when i was an ntrp3.0).
back then utr did not exist, so i thought ntrp defined skill... now we know otherwise
but still cool, for me, that i achieved my goal (WOOT).
what was interesting is that i was able to do it exclusively through dubs (which was a strategy i chose ~5-10y+ ago, when i was fat, and also saw other's get bumped via dubs skills, and figured i had no chance to get to ntrp5.0 via singles)
that said, i don't have the same issue as you... i DO have many 5.0 leagues that i can play in (even if it means capt/recruit/manage my own "bad news bears" team)

revised goal is to hit utr9+ in singles, to be competitive in 55y (winners of those national tourneys are ~utr10)
 
UTR singles are competitive at the 5.0 level? Doubles, too?

I think that is not the case where I live...

Tennis tournaments rather than tennis leagues at 5.0 level?
 
RichVentura said:
UTR singles are competitive at the 5.0 level? Doubles, too?

I think that is not the case where I live...

Tennis tournaments rather than tennis leagues at 5.0 level?
Click to expand...
don't understand your question :P
utr != ntrp
i don't think usta tournaments impact ntrp
utr tournaments definitely do not impact ntrp
(presuming your goal is to get back into 4.5 space)
 
nyta2 said:
don't understand your question :p
utr != ntrp
i don't think usta tournaments impact ntrp
utr tournaments definitely do not impact ntrp
(presuming your goal is to get back into 4.5 space)
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As a 5.0 level player do you play UTR leagues? Singles? Doubles?
 
RichVentura said:
As a 5.0 level player do you play UTR leagues? Singles? Doubles?
Click to expand...
I just got bumped to 5.0 yesterday... so atm (until eoy2023) i'm still playing tri, 8.0mx, 9.0mx - as a 4.5
my plan for 2024:
* (doubles) form a 5.0 team, where i presume i won't do well (i play with a decent number of 5.0's atm, and they all beat me... sometimes close, sometimes badly, but still an L)... likely play the 2d line (as some of the 5.0 guys i'm intending to recruit are better than me in both doubles & singles)
* (singles) continue to play a local ladder
* (singles) look for utr/usta-age-graded tourneys (but don't expect these to affect my usta rating)... definitely playing 50y+ nationals tourneys will be on my list this year
* (singles/doubles) continue to practice with my 5.0 and 4.5 buddies
Honestly, even if i didn't have a 5.0 league to compete in (or i'm too lazy to form my own), i still have plenty of outlets to play and continue to improve... playing usta has never been my goal... general overall improvement was my goal, usta was just a convenient (compared to tournaments) place to test my progress, and help me identify where i need to improve.
 
nyta2 said:
I just got bumped to 5.0 yesterday... so atm (until eoy2023) i'm still playing tri, 8.0mx, 9.0mx - as a 4.5
my plan for 2024:
* (doubles) form a 5.0 team, where i presume i won't do well (i play with a decent number of 5.0's atm, and they all beat me... sometimes close, sometimes badly, but still an L)... likely play the 2d line (as some of the 5.0 guys i'm intending to recruit are better than me in both doubles & singles)
* (singles) continue to play a local ladder
* (singles) look for utr/usta-age-graded tourneys (but don't expect these to affect my usta rating)... definitely playing 50y+ nationals tourneys will be on my list this year
* (singles/doubles) continue to practice with my 5.0 and 4.5 buddies
Honestly, even if i didn't have a 5.0 league to compete in (or i'm too lazy to form my own), i still have plenty of outlets to play and continue to improve... playing usta has never been my goal... general overall improvement was my goal, usta was just a convenient (compared to tournaments) place to test my progress, and help me identify where i need to improve.
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Thank you. This is very helpful. Looking for new tennis outlets.
 
Thank you. But I am the same tennis player and person that I was a month ago, and the same as I will be six or twelve months from now. I won’t let this 5.0 business go to my head. “Ego is the enemy” is my slogan on and off the court. A swollen self regard would only be a black hole of energy which only harms me. I will fight that.
 
RichVentura said:
Thank you. But I am the same tennis player and person that I was a month ago, and the same as I will be six or twelve months from now. I won’t let this 5.0 business go to my head. “Ego is the enemy” is my slogan on and off the court. A swollen self regard would only be a black hole of energy which only harms me. I will fight that.
Click to expand...
Stoicism?
 
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