Need help with first cross tensioning

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Mementi

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Hi guys. i have a question. I usually string ATW. But when i use the two piece stringing method i work with a starting knot. Yesterday i finally bought a starting clamp. Now i start my first cross with a starting clamp on the outside. Then i tension the first cross and put the machine clamp on the first cross. After that i tension the second cross and place the second machine clamp on the second cross. When i am halfway the crosses and the machine clamp is on the opposite side of the starting clamp i re-tension the first cross. After that i remove the starting clamp and use the machine clamp to hold the first cross. Then i tie off with an end knot.

Now my question is about the re-tensioning. I use 2 kg (4 lbs) more to tie off. Is this a problem for the string? First you tension the string at 23 kg (50 lbs) and the second time you tension the same string again but at 25 kg (54 lbs)?
 
It's not really necessary to increase tension on a cross string tie-off. But I don't raise the tension for mains tie-offs either.
 
The 4 extra pounds is not a problem for the string. In fact, the loss in tension from the tie-off will be far more than 4 pounds anyway. In the past I added 10 pounds, but it still lost more tension, so now I just don't fool with changing the setting.

Why not use a starting knot for the first cross instead of a starting clamp?
 
I string the top two crosses and clamp the top string with a starting clamp and tension the second cross and clamp it with a machine clamp. Then tension all crosses down to bottom and tie then go back up and tension and clamp the top cross.
 
A small variation on my end. I tension the first cross at reference against the starting clamp, and clamp with machine clamp. Then tension and clamp the second and third cross. After clamping the third cross, the machine clamp on the same side of the starting clamp is freed up for use. It is then that I go back and re-tension the top cross at reference + 10%. After clamping with machine clamp, I tie off.
 
Irvin, i also use your method. Do you add tension before the tie-off? Gkamieneski, for some strange reason something is not right with your method. Do you have a picture or video? At some point you have two machine clamps on the second cross. Or am i wrong?
 
I just would not do the entire set of crosses and then come back up and tie off the top cross. Yes, do the first few crosses, but then when you can use the knot-side fixed clamp, tension the top cross, remove the starting clamp and tie off.

I have had the experience of something going wrong with that top cross, salvaging the string and starting the crosses again, so I know it can happen. I do prefer having 4 Parnell Knots or Wilson Pro Knots on a 2-piece rather than the bulky starting knot.
 
gkamieneski said:
I do prefer having 4 Parnell Knots or Wilson Pro Knots on a 2-piece rather than the bulky starting knot.
Click to expand...

Same here. I did always a Parnell knot but now started using the Wilson/Pro knot. Easy and clean looking when you don't have enough space.
 
Being able to tie all 4 knots the same is nice from an aesthetic point of view. Additionally, if you use your starting clamp to cinch knots as I do, tying off the top cross at some point before getting down to the bottom cross, frees up your starting clamp to cinch both knots. Otherwise, you may be without your starting clamp to tie off the bottom cross. Lastly, the use of a starting clamp can help preserve your grommets. Pulling tension against starting knots can cause premature wear to grommet of the top cross tie off location.
 
Mementi said:
Irvin, i also use your method. Do you add tension before the tie-off?...
Click to expand...

When I tie off I see very little or no drawback either when I remove the tensioner or when I remove the clamp after tying the knot especially when tying off the crosses si I see no need for increasing tension for tie offs. I don't pull tension on the top cross against the starting clamp because it puts a lot of stress on the string (IMO) right where you will make a bend to tie off and you must the clamp the string with a machine clamp on both sides.
 
am1899 said:
Being able to tie all 4 knots the same is nice from an aesthetic point of view. Additionally, if you use your starting clamp to cinch knots as I do, tying off the top cross at some point before getting down to the bottom cross, frees up your starting clamp to cinch both knots. Otherwise, you may be without your starting clamp to tie off the bottom cross. Lastly, the use of a starting clamp can help preserve your grommets. Pulling tension against starting knots can cause premature wear to grommet of the top cross tie off location.
Click to expand...

I have two starting clamps. If I didn't I would tie off the bottom cross by just hand pulling.
 
Mementi said:
Gkamieneski, for some strange reason something is not right with your method. Do you have a picture or video? At some point you have two machine clamps on the second cross. Or am i wrong?
Click to expand...

You are wrong. You remove the anchor clamp that was set on the 2nd cross to then reclamp the 2nd cross in the normal position, once you pull tension on that 2nd cross string by itself.
 
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Respectfully, Irvin. I can see no advantage whatsoever in stringing all crosses before going back to the head of the racquet to tension the top cross and tie it off.

I do however see advantages to tensioning the top cross and tying off as soon as a fixed clamp is available on that side of the racquet and then moving on to string the remainder of the crosses.
 
gkamieneski said:
Respectfully, Irvin. I can see no advantage whatsoever in stringing all crosses before going back to the head of the racquet to tension the top cross and tie it off.

I do however see advantages to tensioning the top cross and tying off as soon as a fixed clamp is available on that side of the racquet and then moving on to string the remainder of the crosses.
Click to expand...

You only tension each cross one time.if you tension the top cross first with a starting clamp on it you must tension it again to take it off.
 
That's exactly what you said you do, except "Then tension all crosses down to bottom and tie then go back up and tension and clamp the top cross."

As I read you, we're both doing the same thing it's just that I tie off the top cross as soon as I can while you do all the crosses first.
 
gkamieneski said:
That's exactly what you said you do, except "Then tension all crosses down to bottom and tie then go back up and tension and clamp the top cross."

As I read you, we're both doing the same thing it's just that I tie off the top cross as soon as I can while you do all the crosses first.
Click to expand...

Clearly not the same if you're using jim e's method. I tie off the crosses after all crosses are tensioned and IMO it has less drawback because the stringbed is tighter will all crosses in, and using jim e's method you clamp the second cross on both sides.
 
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So you string the first two crosses and place the starting clamp on the top cross. Then you tension/pull the second cross and use the machine clamp on that cross. At the end you go to the first cross again and you tension it. Remove the starting clamp under tension and use the machine clamp to fixate. Then you tie off.

Now when you tension the second cross, you also tension the first cross. So at the end you also tension the first cross twice. Or do you use the machine clamp on the first cross before pulling the second?
 
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Mementi said:
So you string the first two crossen and place the starting clamp on the top cross. Then you tension/pull the second cross and use the machine clamp on that cross. At the end you go to the first cross again and you tension it. Remove the starting clamp under tension and use the machine clamp to fixate. Then you tie off.

Now when you tension the second cross, you also tension the first cross. So at the end you also tension the first cross twice. Or do you use the machine clamp on the first cross before pulling the second?
Click to expand...

When pulling tension on crosses there will be far less than full tension on the far side of the cross string due to surface friction tension loss between the crosses and mains. There is also a lot of surface friction tension loss on the 180* turn between the second and first cross. Although there is a little tension on the top cross it is very low.
 
Irvin said:
Clearly not the same if you're using jim e's method. I tie off the crosses after all crosses are tensioned and IMO it has less drawback because the stringbed is tighter will all crosses in, and using jim e's method you clamp the second cross on both sides.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is clamping the second cross on both sides, but one is going to quickly remove the anchor clamp and it is holding tension in the same direction anyway so I do not believe it has any impact.

So, I discount completely that part of your argument and say that we are both tensioning and tying off that top cross in the same manner. Less chance of a problem my way though.

To each his own. Let me know when your top cross breaks or something and you've woven all the crosses.
 
Irvin said:
When pulling tension on crosses there will be far less than full tension on the far side of the cross string due to surface friction tension loss between the crosses and mains. There is also a lot of surface friction tension loss on the 180* turn between the second and first cross. Although there is a little tension on the top cross it is very low.
Click to expand...

You just start the crosses like you start the mains. Correct?
 
Irvin and gkamienski.

I use Irvins method. But do see the point gkamienski is making as far as any problems on the very last cross.

But do you (gkamienski), tension 2nd cross, clamp, tension 3rd, clamp, tension 1st, clamp, tie off first, tension 4th, clamp etc until bottom cross?
 
Sparkyovcov said:
Irvin and gkamienski.

I use Irvins method. But do see the point gkamienski is making as far as any problems on the very last cross.

But do you (gkamienski), tension 2nd cross, clamp, tension 3rd, clamp, tension 1st, clamp, tie off first, tension 4th, clamp etc until bottom cross?
Click to expand...

If there's a problem on the last cross what difference does it make if it's at the top or bottom?
 
I tension and tie off the top cross as soon as I have a free machine clamp on that side of the racquet head. No reason not to, in my mind.
 
So it was potential problems with the top cross and not the last cross that I was speaking of. And I have experienced one of those problems with a particular frame and was able to recover from it and wouldn't have been able to using Irvin's method.
 
I've been stopping at the 5th cross to tension and tie off my top cross. But now I'm thinking that doing it at the 3rd cross may arrest the advance of any looseness sooner. Maybe it doesn't make any difference. What do you think would produce more consistent results?
 
I really can see no reason to wait. 3rd cross should be when the machine clamp becomes available for tensioning and tying off the top cross.
 
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