Need Help with Modern Forehand

aggielaw

New User
After 20 years off I played my first two tournaments recently. In my last match I shanked a lot of forehands because my racquet face was too closed. The more topspin I tried to hit the more I shanked. I'm converting a classic Eastern grip forehand to the semi-western grip modern forehand.

To remedy the shanking I sat down and watched FYB's 45 minute forehand video as well as the "progressiongs: swing to contact" video. Very disturbing for me. When I hit a forehand my palm never faces up; or if it does, it's only for a split second at the bottom of the"C" swing and I begin pronating my forearm and hand just prior to contact. This results in my palm facing forward at contact as I whip the racquet through. However, EVERY pro in the FYB videos makes contact with their palm facing the sky. I tried it tonight and I'm clearly lost. First, to even hit with my palm up I have to dip my hitting shoulder - something I see no one else doing. Second, I get no power, absolutely no control, most of the balls go down in to the net instead of giving me a nice clearance and dipping in, and best of all my ulner tendon (the golfer's elbow tendon) is sore now.

As I watch the videos here's what I *think* I see, which surely must be wrong. I see a "normal" prep - until the bottom back of the "C". Then I perceive the pro supinating the arm below the elbow in order to get the buttcap facing the ball. The palm goes from facing down to facing skyward. (This is what I think MUST be wrong. Supination should lead to injury.) Then I perceive the palm remaining facing skyward until just after contact, when the arm and wrist pronate- the "as if you're looking at your wristwatch" comment on FYB.

Obviously I'm missing something critical. Can anyone show me clearly or articulate for me what the arm is supposed to be doing in the modern topspin forehand with semi-western grip? How do you get power and control...and avoid Tommy John surgery???

Many thanks in advance for your help. I'm at the point where I want to start throwing things.:evil:
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Switch your grip to a strong SW or a W, hit the ball well out in front of you every time, defending that forward box.
 
Res ipsa loquitur.

5rfz1273263420.jpg


forehand_contact_from_back.jpg


Pat Dougherty, the "Bolletieri Serve Doctor" demonstrates the different degree to which the palm points up with different grips near the beginning of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZqhHdmqSPQ


"As I watch the videos here's what I *think* I see, which surely must be wrong. I see a "normal" prep - until the bottom back of the "C". Then I perceive the pro supinating the arm below the elbow in order to get the buttcap facing the ball. The palm goes from facing down to facing skyward. (This is what I think MUST be wrong. Supination should lead to injury.) Then I perceive the palm remaining facing skyward until just after contact, when the arm and wrist pronate- the "as if you're looking at your wristwatch" comment on FYB. "

Your eyes do not deceive you.

The facts speak for themselves.

So Rip Van Winkle JD, since you have awoken from your 20 year tennis slumber, the wrist is inverted at the end of the C, with the butt of the racquet coming up from below and the forearm supinated. Swinging from "low to high" in this manner, together with the SW/Western grip that necessitates a rapid low to high swing, is what gives the great net clearance from the rapidly spinning ball that Rafa hits.

Any new motion will seem odd until repetition builds "muscle memory". Shadow the motion swinging easily until it seems more natural.

But since you grew up in another era, you may be more comfortable starting the "modern forehand" with an eastern forehand like Roger hits. This may be perfectly satisfactory if you are reasonably tall, don't play a lot of players with really high bouncing forehands, and don't play mainly on clay. [The middle photo sequence below is Roger's "typical" unforced forehand demonstrating the forearm supination as the butt cap approaches the hiting zone, while the upper sequence is abbreviated for returning serves, and the lower modified to hit a low ball on the run.]
usta-forehand-federer-types-website.jpg



The best video sequence for working on the "modern forehand" seems to be this series with Coaches Mauro and Kyril. It starts with the grip, which may be of special interest to you, but it is worth going through all seven videos in the sequence:
How To Hit An Easy, Modern Forehand: Pt. 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X37qJfKoPVc&feature=related

Good luck!
 
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aggielaw

New User
Thanks to all for your thoughtful replies.

C Fed: This is the kind of precise instruction and commentary I needed to understand what is happening with the stroke. Many thanks!
 

ho

Semi-Pro
U making it too complicated.
cannot have any comment more precise than that. Make it very simple:
1. Hit with your body, arm and body rotate forward as one fixed unit, after contact spring out your arm to keep the ball longer on the string bed
2. Hit THRU the ball
If you do that, you achieve 80% of a quality FH
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
What grip are the pros using in the videos? The racquet face has to be a correct angle at contact regardless of the grip, true? On a basic forehand shot that angle is going to be something around perpendicular to the ground.

The position of the palm to achieve that angle depends on the grip. For an E. grip the palm is at about parallel with the racquet face. If the palm is facing up then that would be a Western grip.

So I wouldn't worry about copying the position of some else's palm. I'd pick a grip that feels comfortable and concentrate on the angle of the racquet face.

You can stick with the E. and make it work with a modern forehand. Strong E. and SW are good choices too. I honestly wouldn't go further than that for now.

As far as the angle of the racquet face, the best advice there is that once you start your forward swing you want to set the desired angle and then maintain it through the contact zone. The topspin comes from the pronation of the wrist, the WW motion.

As others have said, look at the youtube videos of pros, but watch the racquet, not the hand. Ultimately it should feel natural. There should be no pain.

I made this change to my forehand recently and it's been great (went from E. and old school swing to strong E. with modern swing).

Good luck.
 
E

eliza

Guest
CHarlieFedererer, love the pics.....and latin(res ipsa loquitor). I am impressed!
OP, I have Wgrip and use topspin, FH is my weapon. Try to just hit slow balls, focus on lower your racquet as much as you can hit up and across, finish to your left shoulder....and check internet for "modern tennis".....
 
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BevelDevil

Hall of Fame
Be careful.

"Modern forehand" seems to be a pretty broad category, and this can lead to much confusion for people trying to make the switch to something "modern."

There's a huge difference between the swings of, say, Agassi, Tsonga and Federer/Nadal, who (presumably) all have 'modern" forehands. Treating them all as fundamentally the same could screw up your stroke.

What it mostly comes down to is that Agassi and Tsonga have more "push" type action, whereas Fed/Nadal have pure "pull" strokes (which I think of as "post-modern" or "hyper-modern". ) Most male pros have some blend of the two. On the women's side, Henin had a swing very similar to Fed's, while the rest of the women's tour is more "push" style.


If you are coming from a classical background, the pure pull stroke will seem much more foreign. It is also more difficult to learn and master. So you may want to avoid trying to copy "Fedal" for those reasons.


Lastly, an important caution about trying to copy Federer while using an Eastern grip:

While Fed technically uses an "Eastern" grip (as shown in the FYB youtube video), there are three MAJOR caveats you must keep in mind

1- He uses a very small grip size: This has the effect of making an Eastern grip play stronger.

2. He uses an extreme "trigger grip" (the index finger being separated and further up the grip than than the rest of the fingers). This has the effect of making an Eastern grip play stronger.

3. He lays the racket handle more diagonal across his palm, with the heel pad contacting at the 3/4 bevel intersection. This has the effect of making an Eastern grip play stronger.

The overall effect is that Fed is effectively playing with a SW or a Strong Eastern grip. So if you're going to copy him, don't use an Eastern grip unless you are going to make all three modifications.
 

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
I was in the exact same position as you were. Don't worry you'll get it. Trust me. I took about the same amount of time off from tennis as I got into other sports.

I played my whole life with an eastern. Came back to tennis about 5 months ago and switched to the whole modern thing. I watched every instructional video I could find (fyb was very helpful to me) and I spent hours every day watching vids on youtube and shadow swinging everytime i walked past my racket and practiced and practiced. It was EXTREMELY frustrating.

Every time I thought i had it figured out something else went wrong or I noticed i wasn't doing this or that right. Then one day everything just clicked and I can now really hammer the ball harder than I ever could and with more accuracy and consistency.

The things that helped me the most were:
. prep early
. pat the dog (this was hard to get down)
. no hitch in the takeback / swing
. let your body swing the racket, not your arm (kinetic chain)
. don't WW with your wrist - use your forearm for that
. push off with backfoot (this took me 3 months to get down coming from the old school 'step into it' with left foot.)
. accelerate as you swing - dont just swing hard, start slow and ACCELERATE into the ball.
.loose arm/wrist

once you have your racket in the takeback position w/ sw grip push off ball of your back foot and rotate your trunk keeping the racket and wrist in the SAME POSITION relative to each other as it was in the pat the dog position. Just keep it like that. no wrist snap. swing with your body.

a lot of stuff but it's worked out for me.
just keep at it and maybe hit against a wall a couple times a week like i did to groove the new stroke.
 

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
I forgot to add..

I also do the 'pull' method referred to earlier. It took a LOT of shadow swinging to get all this into muscle memory but it's possible.
 

aggielaw

New User
Thanks, guys. Cheetah, great encouragement- thank you!

Bluedevil, interesting points on Fed's FH that I did not know.

Thanks again!
 

aggielaw

New User
Eliza, forgot to add you; thanks for the reminder to get down and come up.

Bevel, sorry I butchered your moniker; in southern VA we hear a lot about NC college sports so "Blue Devil" just seemed natural. :oops:
 
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