Need HOA advice !

T

Tennis2349

Professional
Live in a small neighborhood. About 70’homes. We have two new tennis courts.

We do not have rules regarding usage. Being a small community we never had an issue for 5 years. We have an app to reserve courts.

I have 2 neighbors from China. They are part of a large community.

What ended up happening is one neighbor invites 10 guests per night. Booking both courts. Their community is huge, so their is an endless supply of them coming here.

Once that was fixed , and he can only
Book one court, now the other neighbor also books the other court at the same time. So essentially non residents are monopolizing use of our courts.

Now the HOA feels we need to restrict all homes to perhaps 3 reservations per week because of these two neighbors who have about 70 guests per week.

What kind of rules can be implemented to address the main issue, but do not take away flexibility from everyone else?
 
This isn't unlike what clubs have to deal with for court reservations. Most have some sort of limit on how many courts you can book at a time and how far in advance you can book them.

For example, at my club we have one "advance" (7-day) reservation and one "24-hour" reservation we can use.

So on today (Tuesday) I can book a court up to 7 days in the future, but then that reservation is used and I can't use it again until after the slot I booked has passed. But I can book a second court up to 24 hours in advance.

This prevents me from booking several courts in advance, in essence giving others an opportunity to use their advance reservation. Only if courts remain available within 24 hours can I use my 24-hour reservation to grab a second one.
 
Limit the number of guests rather than limit residents

1. At all times one resident must be on the court. There can never be a time when the court has only guests playing.

2. There cannot be guests waiting to play while the resident is on the court. Essentially this enforces a max 3 guest limit for any resident or 1 guest for singles.
 
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Pretty simple.
  1. A resident has to be present at all times to use the court (ideally I wouldn't set guest limits... that potentially inhibits it for everyone else)
  2. Allow each household a maximum of a 1 hour booking per night
  3. If there's no booking and the courts are open, residents and their guests are free to continue playing, but anybody with a booking will always have the right of use of the courts
If they want to use 2 courts guaranteed for an hour each per day, as long as they are respectful of keeping the facilities clean and adhering to rules, as they're also residents paying HOA fees, I wouldn't have any problems with it.
 
At my tennis club you only get 3 reservations in advance per week -- and of course you can play more, just not with the one-week advance rez.

Also at most communities you have to have a resident on the court -- and it's their job to ensure guests are well behaved.
So your HOA could make the rule that if whomever books the court is not present, then they lose booking privileges.

The problem is who is going to police this?
 
happyandbob said:
Limit the number of guests rather than limit residents
Click to expand...
We have something similar for my HOA tennis courts (5 courts) for 361 home owners.

  • a resident must be on the court with the guest(s)
  • each resident can have up to 3 guests per court
 
cks said:
We have something similar for my HOA tennis courts (5 courts) for 361 home owners.

  • a resident must be on the court with the guest(s)
  • each resident can have up to 3 guests per court
Click to expand...
Here is our unique issue.

2 Chinese residents know 80-90 Chinese friends in some group. These 2 residents book the court together. One resident is old and just spectates.

Nobody else in the neighborhood is inviting guests. Maybe once a week / month. Nobody else is abusing privileges.

My son and I use the court often. But only one court. If you are locked out of the system after 3 reservations, what about rain outs? Not many other people use the courts except for this group of 80 non residents.

With weather, and schedules, amentities are meant to be somewhat spontaneous. The above group has so many people that someone will always show up.

We don’t have anyone watching to make sure residents are actually playing.

The group I am speaking of already was pushed out of a few neighboring communities with the exact rules above. Now they are in mine. It just takes time and a board who is actually watching.

Seems against community norms if one resident has 70!guests per week. If the courts are free or not.

We have a few resident juniors thag play often. But they take one court and are not inviting guests. So any other resident can come play basketball. Pickleball etc
 
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Tennis2349 said:
With weather, and schedules, amentities are meant to be somewhat spontaneous.
Click to expand...
Sounds frustrating.

I would attend the next HOA board meeting and express your frustration of not being able to use an amenity (i.e. tennis courts) and maybe suggest some possible changes to the the current rules or establish new ones.

Another option would be to meet with the residents who are inviting loads of guests and see if they can curtail their usage or allow you access to one of the courts.
 
cks said:
Sounds frustrating.

I would attend the next HOA board meeting and express your frustration of not being able to use an amenity (i.e. tennis courts) and maybe suggest some possible changes to the the current rules or establish new ones.

Another option would be to meet with the residents who are inviting loads of guests and see if they can curtail their usage or allow you access to one of the courts.
Click to expand...
The people they invite are rude and entitled. It almost seems like the 2 residents are operating a tennis club out of our amentities.
 
happyandbob said:
I don’t know why you keep mentioning that they are Chinese. The solution is available for you. Regardless of race no court can be used unless there is a resident on the court and no additional guests except those on the court.
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Simply because I don’t see Americans do this and they are a rather non inclusive group.
 
Tennis2349 said:
The people they invite are rude and entitled.
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If it were me, I would speak with the residents first, to see if they would change their behavior of inviting loads of guests. After that, I would go to the HOA board to get the rules changed explaining that this behavior is preventing you access to an HOA amenity.
 
cks said:
If it were me, I would speak with the residents first, to see if they would change their behavior of inviting loads of guests. After that, I would go to the HOA board to get the rules changed explaining that this behavior is preventing you access to an HOA amenity.
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Yes. I am just thinking if rules that address this specific issue and do not punish everyone else.

If one resident invites 100 people to the pool,do we then say all residents can only swim twice a week?
 
atatu said:
I think a $10 guest fee (per person) would solve the problem quickly and give the HOA some extra cash for maintenance.
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How about first 10 guests per month free then $100/hr for guests after that. That should curtail their activity pretty quickly and not affect anyone else who is not abusing the guest policy.
 
J_R_B said:
How about first 10 guests per month free then $100/hr for guests after that. That should curtail their activity pretty quickly and not affect anyone else who is not abusing the guest policy.
Click to expand...

This is a good rule, I have friends my club play my communities courts on occasion. So on occasion is free, but would get people using it as a club.

The problem is who is going to police this or collect? Chances are they may even be playing when the clubhouse (if there is one) isn't even staffed.

The easiest solution is the oldest one: 1 hour per group if there is anyone waiting.

You aren't going to have 40 people show up and sit around if they aren't going to get to play.
 
Connor35 said:
This is a good rule, I have friends my club play my communities courts on occasion. So on occasion is free, but would get people using it as a club.

The problem is who is going to police this or collect? Chances are they may even be playing when the clubhouse (if there is one) isn't even staffed.

The easiest solution is the oldest one: 1 hour per group if there is anyone waiting.

You aren't going to have 40 people show up and sit around if they aren't going to get to play.
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This makes normal people suffer. If my son has a match with one guest kind of hard to play for 1 hour.
 
J_R_B said:
How about first 10 guests per month free then $100/hr for guests after that. That should curtail their activity pretty quickly and not affect anyone else who is not abusing the guest policy.
Click to expand...
I like the pay idea.

We just spent 150k on two courts and fencing.

Trees fell. Needed new fencing. Need new lights.

People who don’t even use the courts are upset as they want residents to use them. Not this large group.
 
Tennis2349 said:
Here is our unique issue.

2 Chinese residents know 80-90 Chinese friends in some group. These 2 residents book the court together. One resident is old and just spectates.

Nobody else in the neighborhood is inviting guests. Maybe once a week / month. Nobody else is abusing privileges.

My son and I use the court often. But only one court. If you are locked out of the system after 3 reservations, what about rain outs? Not many other people use the courts except for this group of 80 non residents.

With weather, and schedules, amentities are meant to be somewhat spontaneous. The above group has so many people that someone will always show up.

We don’t have anyone watching to make sure residents are actually playing.

The group I am speaking of already was pushed out of a few neighboring communities with the exact rules above. Now they are in mine. It just takes time and a board who is actually watching.

Seems against community norms if one resident has 70!guests per week. If the courts are free or not.

We have a few resident juniors thag play often. But they take one court and are not inviting guests. So any other resident can come play basketball. Pickleball etc
Click to expand...
You lost me at pickleball.
 
One reservation per day up to max of 2 reservations per week. (Or instead of a week, use a rolling 7 day period.)

Week is Sunday thru Saturday. (see above)

Each reservation is a 90 minute slot.

Courts are available for booking starting at a specific time for each week e.g. Saturday at 9AM or 9AM 7 days in advance for a rolling 7 day. (see above)

1st come 1st serve allowed only on open courts on that day AND maximum time allotted is 90 minutes AND resident must be player. If no one shows up, they can keep going, but must relinquish court if asked.

For any court, resident must be a player on court and 3 or 1 guest.

Text/printed confirmation must be shown to indicate court time, resident and # guest.

No Shows 10 minutes after start, means court is available.
 
esgee48 said:
One reservation per day up to max of 2 reservations per week. (Or instead of a week, use a rolling 7 day period.)

Week is Sunday thru Saturday. (see above)

Each reservation is a 90 minute slot.

Courts are available for booking starting at a specific time for each week e.g. Saturday at 9AM or 9AM 7 days in advance for a rolling 7 day. (see above)

1st come 1st serve allowed only on open courts on that day AND maximum time allotted is 90 minutes AND resident must be player. If no one shows up, they can keep going, but must relinquish court if asked.

For any court, resident must be a player on court and 3 or 1 guest.

Text/printed confirmation must be shown to indicate court time, resident and # guest.

No Shows 10 minutes after start, means court is available.
Click to expand...
Our situation is unique. We only have 60 homes. .

So not a ton of people are fighting for reservations. We all have common sense except for one resident who sees open courts then invites his entire community.

So we don’t have people working there, any rules at all, and there was never an issue. Until now.
 
This sounds extremely frustrating. When they book the court how long do they use it for? If for just one hour? Or do they rotate in their 10 guys over several hours?
Would you feel differently if each of the Chinese residents booked for 1 hour at the same time but were just playing singles with a guest.
What if the guy just booked the court for 1 hour to practice his serve every night at 6PM? It would be very frustrating, but within the rules.

In the summer I play on public courts, fortunately during the day we have plenty of public courts that if I see one full I drive to another site. But at night, the lit courts are in high demand.
I've seen groups of 8-12 people take possession of a court on the hour (old school rule is to give up the courts on the hour). So they snag the court at 4PM. Then at 5PM if other people are around, the next group of 4 rotates in. And they continue this for the rest of the night. We've gotten into some loud arguments when we call them on it that there group just played and they are monopolizing the court. Even at times when we win the argument it drains the fun out of the night.

I wonder if you had the old school park district rule of courts must be given up on the hour every hour no matter how long one was on the court to other residents. If they wanted to game the system, the could take a court at 6PM with one resident and 3 guests, then at 7PM take it over with the other resident and 3 guests. This would at least keep one court open. Or if they choose to use both courts at 6PM they'd only get one hour on each of them since the residents have to surrender both of them at 7PM. Maybe something that players can't take the court back unitl 2 hours after they last played.

Policing is the other issue. With my battles if we get too much heat from people holding courts we just tell them we are going to call the police--since public courts.
But being in an HOA, police really can't interfer unless their was a violent crime going on (fight etc). So even if you come up with a new rule you are going to need the HOA to back you and maybe even come up with a consequence if the rules are frequently broken.

I'd have no issues with 70 guests being there as long as they gave up the court as soon as residents showed up.
 
Our amentities are set up like this…

We have two tennis courts.

The basketball goal is on one court. One court is set up for pickleball.

Different groups of people are irritated

A. People used to just spontaneously meet and play basketball, tennis, or pickleball.

B. Serious tennis players.

C. Many in the neighborhood do not use the amentities at all. But are irritated their dues are largely going to one outside group to use them.

Most people who use the amentities in the neighbhood don’t even know how to reserve a court. They walk up and see 10 chinese people there nightly.

I like to use the court spontaneously to warm up my son for tournaments. Example could be draw comes out and he plays at 11. Or if he was at academy then wants to work on his serve spontaneously.etc.

We could also fill the courts every night with outside juniors, but we never did.

Both courts are booked every weekend morning from the same group.

I find the group to be rude.

One time they walked in the middle of my court and started playing. Just said it is their time. Argument ensues and they left.

One time I get their ro warm my son up at 7 am. One non resident js their sayjng he has both courts. Argument ensues and he left.

Most people don’t like confrontation and just go hang out somewhere else.

The neighborhood across the street just has the same issue with them. One resident reserves for one court, spills over into other courts, and as time goes by the entire complex of 6 courts is taken over. So now they are in my neighborhood.

We have tons of public parks within a mile. They don’t want to go there.
 
That’s the thing. One of the people reserving is 85 years old. He just watches.

The other guy is in his 50’s. He doesn’t play 20 hours per week lol.

Sometimes they are there. Sometimes not. Sometimes they come and go.

With regular residents we never had an issue. If I see someone walk up they are always invited to share our court. And vice versa.

This group has a totally different demeanor.
 
Unfortunately this added information makes me wonder if the HOA needs to have an attorney draft a letter to the 2 individuals about proper usage of the property. Because anything we suggested might be ignored since they don't seem to respect rules.
 
Also what makes this unique is the type of guest.

Having guests is typically self regulating. We all have families, spouses, kids, jobs, and physically aren’t playing tennis 20 hours per week.

When we have a guest we engage with them to play tennis.

In this case, it is more like the resident is a facilitator to find courts for this large group of people. He might hit a few balls. Go home. Come back. Watch etc. it’s a totally different type of guest.
 
Sad because if they were respectful you could have the best of both worlds.
Meaning, if 4 non-residents were playing and a resident was watching, the minute you walk up to the court the resident says "Hey can they just finish this game and then we'll get out of here."
Instead you have to get ready for a big argument.
I know when I've battled for courts for my kids, the kids are embarassed and mad at me, even though we are the ones following and enforcing the rules. Just ruins the day/night.
 
Robert F said:
Sad because if they were respectful you could have the best of both worlds.
Meaning, if 4 non-residents were playing and a resident was watching, the minute you walk up to the court the resident says "Hey can they just finish this game and then we'll get out of here."
Instead you have to get ready for a big argument.
I know when I've battled for courts for my kids, the kids are embarassed and mad at me, even though we are the ones following and enforcing the rules. Just ruins the day/night.
Click to expand...
Exactly. When I am hitting with my son and they try to push me off the court it’s easy to become enraged
 
HOA should formally warn the 2 residents. But you need to have rules that are enforced like loss of use on tennis courts.

Reading more and I see your issues. Easiest is max of 3 guests per day per slot when busy (however you define it.) 2 slots max per day not continuously.

Another way to do this may be to ban guests unless a resident has booked a court with restrictions on slots and continuity. The guests must be identified and bad behavior means they are forever banned from courts.

All the above requires policing which is an issue cuz someone needs to do it.
 
This is all standard club stuff which software like CourtReserve can implement. But if the HOA is using some cheap or free software, it is difficult to enforce.
 
I had a similar experience but w fillipinos whod set up lawn chairs and music in the morning. However they were cool and invited me to play. Some players were good and gave me tips. Other players brought neat food to try. It wasn’t just me; if someone had a racwwuet theyd get them into the game.
 
I would talk to the HOA president, and ask him (or her) to speak with the residents who are abusing their tennis court privileges. If the abuse doesn’t stop, the HOA board will need to make an addendum to the bylaws, which might be a PITA. I would recommend adopting a guest fee, plus limiting the number of times each guest can play, like once every 90 days. Monitoring this would obviously require more work for someone on the HOA board.
 
schmke said:
This isn't unlike what clubs have to deal with for court reservations. Most have some sort of limit on how many courts you can book at a time and how far in advance you can book them.

For example, at my club we have one "advance" (7-day) reservation and one "24-hour" reservation we can use.

So on today (Tuesday) I can book a court up to 7 days in the future, but then that reservation is used and I can't use it again until after the slot I booked has passed. But I can book a second court up to 24 hours in advance.

This prevents me from booking several courts in advance, in essence giving others an opportunity to use their advance reservation. Only if courts remain available within 24 hours can I use my 24-hour reservation to grab a second one.
Click to expand...
At our club, there are no limits on amount of reservations. Only in time. Max 7 days in advance (this to prevent someone to camp on a court for a specific day of the week at a specific time for the entire season).
There is however a severe limit on guests (= people who aren't club members). In the app, we are forced to select 2 or 4 players for the reservations. And only club members are available for that.
There is the "guest" option but each member only gets to use that twice the entire season.

Your only alternative to "cheat" is to select another club player and come play with a guest instead of that club player. When there aren't many people playing (and thus many courts available / free), then nobody will complain about it.
However, if all courts are booked on busy days, and you end up coming to court with people who aren't on the selection list, you'll have problems. You're taking away court time from paid members at that point.

In the case of the OP though, such a system might be difficult to enforce.... They are community courts and not "private" club owned. That already makes that difficult. And then there's also the issue of who will be that authority to enforce these rules.
 
PMF said:
I would talk to the HOA president, and ask him (or her) to speak with the residents who are abusing their tennis court privileges. If the abuse doesn’t stop, the HOA board will need to make an addendum to the bylaws, which might be a PITA. I would recommend adopting a guest fee, plus limiting the number of times each guest can play, like once every 90 days. Monitoring this would obviously require more work for someone on the HOA board.
Click to expand...
Most HOAs will not get into the money collecting issues. As it is, they have a legal procedure to deal with regular arrears, and they won't invite any more problems by collecting money for tennis.
 
A. Yes. They won’t get into money collecting.

B. People who use the court responsibly to play with family members don’t like limits. And we have plenty of ltme for resident play.

C. An old guy invites 3 guests once or twice a month for doubles. No problem.

D. Another guy doesn’t like having to be present, because his grand daughter (non resident) gets a monthly tennis lesson.

So we need rules because of one guy that nobody likes or can agree on.
 
sureshs said:
Most HOAs will not get into the money collecting issues. As it is, they have a legal procedure to deal with regular arrears, and they won't invite any more problems by collecting money for tennis.
Click to expand...

I was the vice president of my HOA for 11 years.

In addition to collecting money for dues, we also charged late fee's, interest, & title liens. During my tenure, I observed that many property owners didn't realize how much power the HOA had, which included taking legal title of your property, but that was always done as a last resort.

Changing HOA bylaws requires legal assistance, but it can be done.
 
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PMF said:
I was the vice president of my HOA for 11 years.

In addition to collecting money for dues, we also charged late fee's, interest, & title liens. During my tenure, I observed that many property owners didn't realize how much power the HOA had, which included taking legal title of your property, but that was always done as a last resort.

Changing HOA bylaws requires legal assistance, but it can be done.
Click to expand...
Yeah those are standard things. We also do that. Tennis guest fees are kind of a joke though.
 
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sureshs said:
Yeah those are standard things. We also do that. Tennis guest fees are kind of a joke though.
Click to expand...

@Tennis2349. Just another idea. If the courts in question are fenced, a low-tech-solution might be pad locking them. Put up a sign that says if anyone wants to play, they must obtain a key from one of the HOA board members. At that time, questions can be asked about residency, and access can be denied at the discretion of the HOA.

Kind of aggressive, but I suspect the abuser(s) will disappear quickly. Then you can relax the rules after that.
 
PMF said:
@Tennis2349. Just another idea. If the courts in question are fenced, a low-tech-solution might be pad locking them. Put up a sign that says if anyone wants to play, they must obtain a key from one of the HOA board members. At that time, questions can be asked about residency, and access can be denied at the discretion of the HOA.

Kind of aggressive, but I suspect the abuser(s) will disappear quickly. Then you can relax the rules after that.
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The resident lets them in. He lives right next to the tennis courts. He is present, as in he lets them in, hangs out, goes home, comes back, etc.
 
Tennis2349 said:
The resident lets them in. He lives right next to the tennis courts. He is present, as in he lets them in, hangs out, goes home, comes back, etc.
Click to expand...

Oh my, that is quite a conundrum. I hope your HOA board does something to help you.

I remember we used to have a homeowner who kept an old refrigerator on his front porch, which was quite an eyesore, and visible from the curb. His neighbors constantly complained about it, and he wouldn’t cooperate with the HOA, and because of him, we had to get an attorney to change the HOA bylaws. After almost a year, he finally cooperated, but only after he understood the HOA board could take legal action against him.
 
Tennis2349 said:
The resident lets them in. He lives right next to the tennis courts. He is present, as in he lets them in, hangs out, goes home, comes back, etc.
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Well I'm no angel, and in my life I've mooched some tennis. But this is pretty egregious.
Especially the number of people that rotate in and out.

Did you ever try the soft approach?
"I'm glad you and your friends enjoy tennis, and I have no problem with you guys using the courts when residents don't need them, but you need share the courts with the rest of the community."
I wouldn't be happy, but if they were openly sharing the courts when residents came on, I could live with that. So if you and your son came out and 4 guests were using the courts, when they see you standing outside the fence they should say "Oh, do you guys need the courts? Let us finish this game and we'll get out of your way."

This has been my approach when I'm just practcing my serve or hitting against a wall at public courts and then others show up. Technically I don't have to give up the court, but I also want others to get utility of the court.

I still think that with this group being so large, you are going to have to get the HOA involved.
 
Tennis2349 said:
B. People who use the court responsibly to play with family members don’t like limits. And we have plenty of ltme for resident play.

C. An old guy invites 3 guests once or twice a month for doubles. No problem.

D. Another guy doesn’t like having to be present, because his grand daughter (non resident) gets a monthly tennis lesson.

So we need rules because of one guy that nobody likes or can agree on.
Click to expand...

If you already have an app to allow for reservations, can you not just limit the number of reservations per household to a single one per day, and while it's a slight inconvenience for the other residents, just make sure you/they book the court when you're ready to play?

I can't imagine anyone would hold their ground if presented with a phone screen showing that you've got the court reserved for XYZ time. And a big group is not going to want to sit around for an hour to wait for the courts to open up again (and still potentially not have the courts if another resident decides to book it).
 
PMF said:
@Tennis2349. Just another idea. If the courts in question are fenced, a low-tech-solution might be pad locking them. Put up a sign that says if anyone wants to play, they must obtain a key from one of the HOA board members. At that time, questions can be asked about residency, and access can be denied at the discretion of the HOA.

Kind of aggressive, but I suspect the abuser(s) will disappear quickly. Then you can relax the rules after that.
Click to expand...
That doesn't work because the homeowner can open the gate and let any number of guests in.
 
bleu said:
If you already have an app to allow for reservations, can you not just limit the number of reservations per household to a single one per day, and while it's a slight inconvenience for the other residents, just make sure you/they book the court when you're ready to play?

I can't imagine anyone would hold their ground if presented with a phone screen showing that you've got the court reserved for XYZ time. And a big group is not going to want to sit around for an hour to wait for the courts to open up again (and still potentially not have the courts if another resident decides to book it).
Click to expand...
For example yesterday. I had a reserved a court with my son. It rained. Courts were wet…

So we were delayed.

Large groups arrives! 1 resident and ten guests. There is one open court and my court.

I’m simply not moving off the courts until he is finished with his practice. At this point I dare them to say something. So they just waited.
 
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