Needed - Strong Kick Server for Video Measurements.

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
For the kick serve there are many disagreements in the forum posts that could be resolved easily if a few videos were taken.

What is needed is a strong kick serve that bounces clearly to the right and a 240 fps camera with a fast shutter - many smartphones will do - and small motion blur. Send a video.

There are a few instructions, camera angles, etc., to video some interesting points of the kick serve.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
This serve is an example of what is needed. Strong kick serve with visible bounce to the right.

Thanks to Toly!


#1) The first goal is to get a high speed video of the racket hitting the ball so that the closed tilt of the racket just an inch before impact can be seen.

Does anyone recognize the court? Is he an instructor?
 
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Shroud

G.O.A.T.
This serve is an example of what is needed. Strong kick serve with visible bounce to the right.

Thanks to Toly!


#1) The first goal is to get a high speed video of the racket hitting the ball so that the closed tilt of the racket just an inch before impact can be seen.

Does anyone recognize the court? Is he an instructor?
he has posted here before though I forget who he is.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
For the kick serve there are many disagreements in the forum posts that could be resolved easily if a few videos were taken.

What is needed is a strong kick serve that bounces clearly to the right and a 240 fps camera with a fast shutter - many smartphones will do - and small motion blur. Send a video.

There are a few instructions, camera angles, etc., to video some points of the serve.
confused by this request for video. Didnt you say that only high level player's vids should be looked at? Yet you seem to be asking the peanut gallery??
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
There are a few simple camera set ups that would show us some things such as whether the racket is closed for a kick serve at impact that bounces to the right. He obviously has a very effective high level kick serve with pace that bounces to the right.

I'd always like an example of a high level ATP stroke of the best current players. But for this kick serve issue, that server looks very good. It is very difficult to find a kick serve with a visible right bounce and also a camera viewing the racket at the proper angle. I know how to set that up. You want the camera to catch the ball 1" from impact so that one edge of the racket blocks the other edge. You look at the first kick serve and then move the camera a few times to align it. A 15 degrees tilt is then easy to see. See the Stosur kick serve.

I tried videoing two players that I know and thought had strong kick serves. The balls bounced high but not to the right. I had a camera on one of them, about 75 serves bounced high and maybe 3 bounced high and a little to the right. There was a second camera to display the racket tilt at impact and I did not see racket tilt for that player. Now, I think that they had one strong and one very effective Top Spin serve but no kick serve. Both the players thought that they had a kick serve.

Have everything but a strong kick server and pointing a camera for some serves until the alignment shows racket edge behind edge. If any college players or coaches want some informative videos on their kick serves, we are open for business.

There is one other possibility for the right side bounce and this depends on a strong serve and bounce angle. Maybe the strong right side bounce depends on the ball distorting against the court. ? That also can be determined in a serve as shown in post #2. You need as high a frame rate as you can get because the ball squish is very brief.

Another issue, SystemicAnalomy and I have been disagreeing on whether the spin after racket impact is maintained to the bounce or whether the spin builds as the ball travels. That would be another simple observation, to video the spin direction after racket impact and then just before bounce.

The best camera angle to video the bounce direction is viewing in the direction of the trajectory right before the bounce.

So we could clear up some issues if we had a volunteer with a kick serve that bounced to the right.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
IIlustration of the racket closed tilt for the kick serve. Toly processed videos.

The racket is caught so that one edge is behind the other edge and the kick serve closed tilt is clear. This, however, is when the ball is squished in the strings, so a before touch position would be better. (Just take a few extra 240 fps videos to catch the ball near touching the strings.)

This Federer serve was identified as a kick serve. The bounce to the right was not verified by a second camera.

Notice that both Federer's and Stosur's arm, racket shaft and racket face are all observed at a tilted angle from this special side camera view where one racket edge blocks the other.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
What does the high speed video show with regard to racquet tilt at contact? Is there much video available?



It may or may not be useful as a checkpoint.

The approach I see from Serve Doctor and Jeff Salzenstein videos is to mainly focus on the setup, swing path and the finish -- not the racquet tilt position at the millisecond before contact.

So if you get the toss for a kick correct, and have the proper setup, swing path and finish, everything else will usually fall into place. Do not have to focus on the racquet position at contact; that will take care of itself.

I do not recall any of Jeff's kick serve videos ever mentioning the tilt at contact for a kick serve.ever

The correct tilt is something that usually naturally happens as a consequence of proper setup, swing path and follow through.
Here is a thread showing the racket tilt for probable kick serves (they were not confirmed by the bounce to the right).

The most information on the racket tilt for the kick serve is in thread Junior Twist Serve.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Just found this kick serve impact caught with the camera angle to show one racket edge behind the other racket edge. Go to impact frame to see the racket tilt at impact, 11 sec. Measures 12.5 degrees closed when the ball is squished and cupped in the strings, about 2 milliseconds after first contact. Topspin Tennis places blue marks to indicate the racket tilt during impact. See 6:09.

Place line of protractor along the racket shaft and protractor center at the top of one of the fences as a reference to the horizontal. This measures about 12.5 degrees closed tilt.

Impact frame at 11 sec.

Topspin Tennis Youtube.

Ideally, we would like to capture the racket strings or shaft tilt just before impact. That avoids collision effects.

If anyone finds clear videos showing kick serve impacts from this particular camera side view, please post them in this thread.
 
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GuyClinch

Legend
This serve is an example of what is needed. Strong kick serve with visible bounce to the right.

Thanks to Toly!


#1) The first goal is to get a high speed video of the racket hitting the ball so that the closed tilt of the racket just an inch before impact can be seen.

Does anyone recognize the court? Is he an instructor?

I thought that was Jolly.. No? I don't think we have many disagreements about a kick serve that youtube teaching pros and ex-tour pros have not settled.. But hey go for it..
 

PKorda

Rookie
This serve is an example of what is needed. Strong kick serve with visible bounce to the right.

Thanks to Toly!


#1) The first goal is to get a high speed video of the racket hitting the ball so that the closed tilt of the racket just an inch before impact can be seen.

Does anyone recognize the court? Is he an instructor?
Savage
 

onehandbh

Legend
I thnk
For the kick serve there are many disagreements in the forum posts that could be resolved easily if a few videos were taken.

What is needed is a strong kick serve that bounces clearly to the right and a 240 fps camera with a fast shutter - many smartphones will do - and small motion blur. Send a video.

There are a few instructions, camera angles, etc., to video some interesting points of the kick serve.
I think I remember @nyta2 having a kick serve. Maybe he could record it.
 

onehandbh

Legend
Are you looking for a camera angel kind of like this? (this was not a kick serve)

I think the clearest way to see it on video is to have the server stand near the T and serve down the middle to the deuce court.

Have the camera directly behind the server.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Are you looking for a camera angel kind of like this? (this was not a kick serve)

I think the clearest way to see it on video is to have the server stand near the T and serve down the middle to the deuce court.

Have the camera directly behind the server.
First, this needs a strong kick serve and confirming that the bounce is to the right. Very strong right bounces can be seen with a camera looking along the ball's trajectory as shown in post #2. The more usual right bounce might need a second camera on the bounce.

The purpose of this thread is to determine - true or false - whether the closed tilt appears with many or most effective kick serves that bounce to the right for a right handed server. To see that, the camera must observe the racket tilt, just before impact, so that the closest racket edge blocks the farthest edge. If you look carefully at the videos, you can see the baseline and initially place your camera very close to one racket edge blocking the other. Video one serve and then adjust the camera position until it looks like the above videos.

Look at the last Federer serve, where else could your place the camera and see that tilt? Camera on the other side of the server works too.

Demo. Balance a racket on the butt of the handle and look at the two edges. Move around the racket until one edge is behind the other. That is what you do for a serve, video a serve and move forward or backward for the next serve until the alignment is good.

In other words,

1) Hit some practice kick serves on the ad side.

2) Place tripod with elevated camera on the doubles sideline 5 feet in from the baseline. Hold racket in estimated impact location, align and focus camera.

3) Video a kick serve at 240 fps or more with small motion blur (bright sunlight).

4) Look at frame just before impact.

5) Move camera in or out along the sideline, repeat, until one edge blocks the other edge. That's it.


The Stosur ad serve in post #5 was taken with the camera on the deuce court side and placed close to the baseline corner. The baseline helps position the camera for the first tries.
 
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onehandbh

Legend
Doesn't post #8 already show what you are looking for?
Actually, what ARE you looking for? or trying to study/understand about the kick serve?
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Doesn't post #8 already show what you are looking for?
Actually, what ARE you looking for? or trying to study/understand about the kick serve?

The purpose of this thread is to determine - true or false - whether the closed tilt appears with many or most effective kick serves that bounce to the right for a right handed server.

Think he is saying that some serves do not kick to the right -- only have topspin. The theory is that the racquet tilt closed at contact is required to get the rightwards kick.

If he finds a serve that kicks to the right but has no closed tilt, the theory is disproven.

Had never heard of this theory. Had thought topspin was generated by the swing path. A rightwwards kick would have a different brushing motion than a straight ahead topspin serve.
 

MaxTennis

Semi-Pro
Can you record a kick serve down the deuce T at 240 fps? (Or faster if your phone or camera can do it) camera behind. Curious to see how much to the right a high level non-pro can make their kick serve move.
I'll try. I haven't played tennis since December so next time I'm out, I'll give it a shot.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Here ya go:
Nice result and looks like a bounce to the right. The point of the thread is to video the tilt of the racket shaft & head at impact. To often catch the ball and racket tilt just before impact, takes about 240 fps.

Not to complicate the issue, but there appears to be a second technique to hit a kick serve where the racket face is angled and swung up toward the ball with not much ISR. You may be doing that. ? Compare your ISR before and after impact. I'm interested in the tilt of your serve. In any case, about 240 fps is needed to examine the faster parts of the serve.

FYI

Compare serves one above the other on this post. To single frame on Youtube use the period & arrow keys. Always select the YT video with alt key + left mouse click, otherwise the video starts playing. To single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS. Compare similar racket positions and look for all differences - compare frames where the racket shafts are horizontal - your elbow is bent vs straight. You can go full frame and come back down and the video stays on the same frame.

I would like to keep this thread targeted to observing the tilt on the racket just before impact and the right bounce. 15 degrees racket tilt is large and should show up with many side camera views even those not carefully aligned. The pro racket tilts in posts #5, 6 & 8 were simply found.

Please post your serve.
 
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