Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by 10istalent, Jan 4, 2013.
Thanks for the punch in the eye with your compliment.
My guess would be (without knowing the new coach or his teaching philosophy) that he is looking to develop your daughters hand skill ("tuning the hand" as they refer to it in Spain). By helping her develop slice, drop shots etc, he will likely be helping her understand racquet face control and developing her feel for the ball - this will undoubtedly help her improve her current game style.
At least that's what I would be trying to do.
Andfor and the rest of the posters Serena and the rest of the ATP and WTA players need to be more in your face , Com'on's , verbal energetic ect . for the sake of tennis we need it more alive out there , Not way over the top but as close as we can get ,,
To all that have watched my player compete the first thing you enjoy if his fire , no quit attitude ,in your face play , even some subtle trash talk which I make sure does not get out of hand , but like i said for the sake of our sport we need warriors full of fire !! think about a house on fire or building or even a car on the road "everybody's" attention is drawn to it , we need fire on the courts .
So I welcome Serena's so called disrespect . just my opinion .
I respectively disagree. I wanted my kids to learn to play like Roger Federer and Pete Sampras. I wanted them to develop good characters, behaviors, disciplines, respect (to coaches, parents, and yes too their opponents as well), work ethic, honesty, good health, confidence...; I wanted them to meet good friends; help school win the states; get into the best college... from tennis training and competition. Obviously your goal for your son is a lot different than most of the parents. I may be wrong but you seem to be a parent or a coach who wanted to develop a "bad boy" who wins at all costs, who becomes Big Mac if so lucky or just another Donald.
Look. I'm for showing positive emotion. I'm even for fist pumps and com'ons. There's a right time for them and players can learn when that is. I don't believe they need to be every point and directed at your opponents face. Now, I did not watch the Williams v. Stevens match, so the Serena antics I so often disagree with may not apply to this match. For all I know Sloan is being overly senstive. Regardless, if she is or isn't she should not have mention it. I'm even for a little trash talk, so long as your not starting it, letting it get in your head or distract you.
Postive emotion and internal burning desire is good. Too much of it, like anythig is not. I've seen multiple fist pumpers and comon'ers over the years and when it's over the top they are actually trying to overcompensate for an underlying lack of confidence, nervousness or lack of real game.
Fist bumping toward your opponent in junior tournament may be called a point penalty. Yes, you can do it, but turn your body and pump toward the back fence and NEVER to your opponent's face!
Well, Chemist's attention wouldn't be drawn to it, and neither would mine. So I don't think you can judge for everybody.
Admire you for finding a way to talk about....and draw attention to....you and your player again in the "New coach, new tennis" thread
Nor mine, I am not drawn to any of the trash. And there has been so much of it on here lately.
As you put it so eloquently before Misterbill....Yawwwwwwwwwn.
Agreed. I know it's a message board, we get off topic, conversations meander. That's fine. But can we try just a little to avoid the insanity of the same old subjects coming up over and over with the same result? A fight.....nothing resolved.....no one changing their mind....someone going over the top....feelings hurt....someone getting banned. We all know what hot button topics are. For me, I'm going to avoid talking about them.
Good New Year's Resolution, think I'll join you on that one.
Your last word explains American tennis YAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWN
The kid we played at the OB Borna was very aggressive on the baseline but had the ability to hit a drop shot in the mix of a intense rally or coming foreward you were expecting a brutal approach only to see a transition of soft hands a drop shot leaving my player with a broken ankle ,
so to the original poster this new coach has a lot to add to her game that will help cause these kids at the OB are the best in the business "jrs" and their variety was incredible .
side note Borna and Db were in each others faces with the fist pumps and com ons as were Bornas team on the bleachers and after the match they as well as Borna came up and said great player good job and they meant it ,they were a class act and had a grip on high competition .
Really WHY ? in football they are in your face , base ball , basketball , hockey , even softball , seems in tennis its don't of offend little Johnny or sara their therapist said it could really affect their future ,
Dont mean to be sarcastic but really we are so on eggshells in the tennis world and we wonder why its dying in the uSA and I am not advocating being rude ,or name calling but competitive fire which is lacking desperately.
You ask anyone who would you rather watch Nadal vs Djoke or Sampras vs Fed and you place it in a Davis cup setting and I know what crowds I want to be around ?
Man, I would love to see Fed vs. Pete in their prime that would be some sweet all court tennis.
Even Serena and Nadal don't do that much any more
Why? First there's the rules, the code and the heritage of the game. Second, you compared tennis, an individual sport to typically/often unofficiated and for the most part self-officiated game to teams sports that are always officiated.
I do get your point. In the pros they get more leeway in many areas than the juniors and for good reason. Selling tickets. Sure the game needs more passion. But experts coaching the game know that managing your emotions on an even keel, maintaining a positive mindset and high effort level, focusing on the process versus the outcome have proven results. Do players need to express passion and emotion at key moments? Yes, in moderation. Is negative emotion OK when making a mistake to show your opponent that error is uncharacteristic, sure, on occasion. Balance is the key. This is why we see so many pros act similarly.
Acting like a football player in a rage on the tennis court will not help a player think and win.
See my post above. Over the years they've learned. Get to high or to low in a match and bringing the mind back to a balanced point is not that easy. Once the light switch is tripped, in tennis it ain't that easy to just switch it back.
think about the history of tennis and other sports , who is the newest most exciting, controversial player , who making a commotion ,Tiger woods coming on the boring PGA and has the talent has the fire has the intense fist pumps He single handedly lit it up , Dennis Rodman and stupid hair colors and nose rings , Leyton hewitt ,Ray Lewis entering the stadium , Chad Ochocinco , The NBA has to many to name but my point every so ofter tennis has a gladiator type show up and even the non tennis fans take note .
We have a sport that is in need of life and is dying before our very eyes and we should all hope that some new exciting players show up .
But really let stay on point the Op talked about what should be done about their player what are your thoughts about the drop shot or off pace approach shots?
I agree with you completely and don't get me wrong i am not advocating WWF here just more life in a sport that when your watching a jr match or being at a cemetery is not much of a difference then some of these over cautious refs and parents need to allow the emotions to fly a "bit" more .
I do believe in moderation but I have been in arguments with a ref who told my player he couldn't pump his fist towards me , I immediately told my player and you keep it up and told the ref that she was way out of line and a couple other parents jumped right on my side in approval of the excitement they were seeing on court and encouraged it .
we talk having fun on court the player does something great and congratulates him or herself with a fist pump and they are told Dont do that please be boring and don't show any happiness.
The kind of comments players made in the past will simply not fly any more these days.
Not sure why you think the game is dying. Tennis participation levels are still very high in many parts of the world, including the U.S. The economy likely has more to do with your perception.
Back to the OP's point. The kid needs some variety. I like the ideas her new coach is putting out there. Really should not change her results, if it does it may only be short term. Long term she'll be better for it. The key is to know when to use the variety. If she has a consistent base game now and can pound the ball, 14 is the perfect age to add some dimension to her game.
With girls I've seen too many one dimensional college girls. Even at the high end I've seen them taken to pieces by opponents who have the variety to keep the ball out of their strike zone and keep them off balance with variety.
This is an important distinction...and perfectly acceptable. Many times I have watched a pro match live or on TV and gotten goose bumps when a player is on fire and has the crowd into it. The celebrations are directed inward and/or to the crowd. You're right, it adds excitement to the game.
However, I'm seeing two trends in the juniors, and by juniors I mean 10s and 12s as that's where we are at this point: 1. fist pumps and "come on" on opponents unforced errors. I see it at non-critical points and even on double faults. 2. Excessive celebration - too often and too much.
The first trend is just bad etiquette, and yes, I think tennis should have some etiquette. The second trend is not smart because it leaves a player with no where to go emotionally. If the player is celebrating every point and every opponent error, they have no way to pump themselves up when they need it - a break or a winner on an important hold, etc. Often pros will say they won by playing the big points well, or lost by their opponent playing the big points well. Young players need to learn how to work the momentum and manage their emotions - both up and down. Tough to do when they are screaming as loud as they can on every stroke and fist pumping every point.
my student, my student, my student........oh wait what was this thread about.
I find this hard to believe, you cannot truly use variety to change up the game against a good aggressive power hitter. The ball is coming too hard (flat and fast) or deep/heavy to effectively use variety as a way to go on offense.
It can be done. I'm not saying change the baseline basher into a slice and dice serve and volleyer. Throwing in a slice, a high heavy or a drop shot in appropriate situations works. Variety can also be done through momentum management, applying base game/consistent play or playing offensive/going for it based on the score and what happened during the previous point subtly creates variety and can keep an opponent off balance with them even knowing what's hit them.
You are clearly not watching Radwanska-Wickmayer match on TC right now.
Championship point for Radwanska
Arsenal of weapons? Errani, Radwanka, etc do it all day long. If you can get the ball back in play off of a power shot, you can create the play that you want. The issue is, there is always someone, somewhere that can out-hit you. Also, some days your power shots are just a little off, keep going out. At that point you need those other weapons, but you can only use if you have them.
Serena is the ultimate example. She absolutely has all the weapons, which is why she is such a dominant force in women's tennis. Great net player as well as power hitter. Put her against another amazing power hitter (Sharapova?) and we all know what happens. What a great mover all together.
I believe EPSN replaced NCAA tennis with college girls bowling OUCH !
Well, this made me turn my tv on thanks
I watched Borna step up a serve and volley followed by a baseline ralley followed by a drop shot in the next rally then back to baseline rally's for a while then back to mixing , he was very good at it , his coach did a great job , we are gonna try and incorporate more in out game as should the Original Poster.
also slicing and dicing is also a nice mix .
Hey I met Wickmeyer last month that girl is a beast , she has some thighs on her that you may see in the NFL
Unfortunately this beast cannot return first serve well, cannot handle short slice and makes mistakes on shots that require small adjustment steps around the ball. So if can make her do all these things that she is not good at you may win. Or you can try to compete with her who hits the ball harder.
That really has nothing to do with the growth or contraction of tennis. Covering college dual formats is very difficult.
Fox Sports covered the C-USA men's tennis championship last year.
Good idea # 1 coach. While DB is not famous yet, keep him fired up but try not to pump the fist toward the opponent's face. It will be more pleasant to watch him in the future : )
Look at Table 17, page 124-125 in this Friends at court. That gesture can be penalized in juniors.
http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/2012 FRIEND AT COURT.pdf
Great post! I have seen some kids doing fist pumping and loud "come on" on opponent's errors including double faults and they trash talk, call name... they just want to try all the dirty tricks they could think of or were told by their coach or parents - with a sole purpose of messing up their opponent's mental. These kids rarely have good friends. I also fully believe college coaches don't like to recruit kids who cheat and do dirty tricks to win matches.
I watched the Sloane versus Serena match and I have to say I didn't see Serena being "disrespectful" to Sloane at all.
Serena clapped when Sloane hit a great point.
She did say come on's to herself to pump herself up in a very competitive match, but it was nothing out of the ordinary for many of the top women.
In fact, I think Serena is probably one of the most fair of the top players the WTA has ever had. I've never seen her try to cheat anyone out of a point. She claps for her opponents winners. She has even been cheated on several different occasions herself (most of the time keeping her composure quite well).
I will say one thing, Sloane really needs to grow up and toughen up.
In fact, I think Sloane's comments were actually "disrespectful." She is playing one of the best women's tennis players ever and she is making commentary about the "come on's." Really?
Considering what we have on the WTA these days with seeming intentional vocal hinderences that some top players exert on almost every point, Sloane really needs to toughen up if she is shooting for the top of the sport.
In talking with her own coach, Sloane shouldn't be focusing on her opponent saying "come on"...that should not even come into her mind at all...she should be focusing on how to win the match.
In fact, I'd love it if none of the women would call their coaches down and learn to think for themselves they way Serena does.
I wonder if it's intentional or mimicking what they see on TV and just do it all the time. Some of the younger kids I've seen seem to be just copying their idols and don't know when to apply self-motivation. But I've also seen more savvy kids doing it to get to the other player. I know of one kid who, upon his opponent hitting a first serve into the net, yells "fault"! At first I thought it was kind of funny, but after an entire match of it... not so much.
Excessive com'ons and fist pumping is often prevalent among the 12-14's and for the majority of kids decreases over time, with maturity. I know, there's exceptions, also it can be used inappropriately as gamesmanship.
Point is, if Sloan Steven's expresses that Serena Williams did it excessively in a pro match does not mean anything other than she allowed herself to be distracted. Gamesmanship only works if the person who the gamesmanship is directed to allows it. In the pro game telling the public another pro excessively fist pumped and said com'on? Really. Sloan Stevens should be embarrassed she said that to the media. Other pros are likely salivating to play her now. Time to grow up.
Andfor Sloane should have kept her mouth shut ,what Serena did was way within the limits of sportsmanship and trust me i am not a big fan of Serena at all , think she is beyond arrogant , sloane just allowed her true soft demeanor to show which she better look to toughen up asap .
Here is a part of that match. I think everyone agrees that Sloan shouldn't be bothered by this. The in your face fist pump might have looked better if it's not toward the opponent IMO.
would have been great if the other kid responded Every time " UNFORRCED ERROR"
It's a grow up, learning moment for Stephens.
I think she expected Serena would go easy on her because they are friends or friendly.
Sloane has faced louder and more frequent "come on's" in her "face" by Maria Sharapova and others and I don't recall her ever commenting on them.
Watching her pow wow with her coach, it was just obvious that Sloane didn't listen to a word he said about strategy. She was fuming over Serena saying "come on" literally maybe once or twice at that point in the match (end of first set)
I realize there are lots of people who criticize Serena for whatever she does (and let other players get away with more and worse)...I am sure Serena is used to it and doesn't let it bother her one bit.
One bit of caution for Sloane though, she doesn't want to get on Serena's **** list and end up getting Maria Sharapova'd from here on out.
As for the clip, Sloane complained about the "come on's" after the end of the first set well before the "come on" in the clip which happened toward the end of the 2nd set.
Sloane comes off very amateurish and juvenile with these remarks to her coach and then loudly commenting again on court about "disrespectful"
Sloane only made herself look bad.
and on court coaching should be banned
Now that's funny! Best thing I've read here in a long time.
Seems that she probably could practice the variety and maintain her current style. Bigger question is how you, your daughter and coach feel about the mental aspects of the transition? If you feel this can be dealt with successfully go for it.
You have Andy Murray predicament in reverse. He had all the variety and had to resolve to hammer the ball more. Not a bad problem to have at all with a blue chip 14 year old. Have fun! Congrats.
I have no issue with what Serena did. It's Sloane's issue and she should focus on herself and use it as an opportunity to grow and establish her own identity . . . it's about your personality and don't let the opponent impact what you do and what you focus on and Sloane let Serena do that but, again, Serena has so much more experience than Sloane so hopefully Sloane uses it to learn. As the commentator said, she needed to figure out how to break Serena's serve at 5-3 instead of worrying about Serena's behavior.
Sloane is a nobody Serena is the G.O.A.T!!!!!!!! Deal with it Sloane.....
Found this video clip of an 2010 Australian Open match between Henin and Dementieva. Henin was using all kids of the shots...
Thanks for the link! That's my new favorite women's match. Going to have my daughter watch it for inspiration
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