New PC Build

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Ah, I thought you had 4+4+4 or 8+4, which I had talked about in the inital post.
I think that best practices is to use matched sets in each channel. So if you get triple-channel memory, you should buy three of them at the time. If you have six-channel memory, you should buy six of the same thing at the same time.

All of the recommendations that I've seen are to use matched sets.

Of course I have seen mismatches on RAM sold to come up with odd configurations. The Mac Pro can be purchased with 4x8=32 but it has six-channel memory - it would be better to order them with the same but I guess that's their base model. All of the other options have six or twelve sticks.
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
I wonder how many channels of memory that makes on an Apple paltform. Cheap PC enthusiasts used to add 4GB of RAM to 8GB systems (be it in a 4GB+8GB or 3*4GB config), but there was either no performance benefit, or in some cases a performance penalty. The extra 4GB tend to be slower to access. But to be honest, it was mostly relevant to memory sensitive applications (like gaming), so who cares for a backup system. Better than nothing.
I have a Intel Broadwell 4790i and my workstation is maxed out at around 32 GB. The machine came with only 4GB and I upgrade it immediately to 8GB. About 3 years ago I upgraded to 4 - 8GB DIMMs at the same cost that I purchase the additional 4GB stick! Memory is penny cheap on older machines. I probably never buy a cutting edge PC because cost of components. Wait 3-4 years and buy new PC at dirty cheap prices!
 

Lukhas

Legend
I probably never buy a cutting edge PC because cost of components. Wait 3-4 years and buy new PC at dirty cheap prices!
Sure, if you never need the most modern tier of performance. Which is most likely why tablets and ultra portable computers took off: there's a number of people who only need basic functions out of their computers. Basic web browsing, social media, streaming or accessing their online cloud storage provider. You could argue that for the general public, the computer market is moving towards just providing a physical interface to access online services.

Ironically, there must have been a number of people stuck at home with their old machines with nothing better to do, or noticing that their machine is not as capable as they thought, if you consider the reported near Black Friday continuous and consistent demand for computer parts since the beginning of the lockdowns last Spring. Yes, Black Friday demand almost all year long at this point.
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
Sure, if you never need the most modern tier of performance. Which is most likely why tablets and ultra portable computers took off: there's a number of people who only need basic functions out of their computers. Basic web browsing, social media, streaming or accessing their online cloud storage provider. You could argue that for the general public, the computer market is moving towards just providing a physical interface to access online services.

Ironically, there must have been a number of people stuck at home with their old machines with nothing better to do, or noticing that their machine is not as capable as they thought, if you consider the reported near Black Friday continuous and consistent demand for computer parts since the beginning of the lockdowns last Spring. Yes, Black Friday demand almost all year long at this point.
Many people view their performance on the internet is based on their PC hardware but it really based on one’s internet speed and the type of Wi-Fi card you are using unless you are using direct ethernet plug-in. I notice a huge performance gain as soon I went with a top tier mesh router system. LOL!
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I cranked up the Firefox performance settings and am using 11.5 GB now. Looks like I may need another 4 GB. The machine is nice now.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
The other RAM should arrive tomorrow so I'll have 16 GB of RAM but what I found is that Firefox can use about 10 or 11 GB by itself. Restarting Firefox helps but it grows back again. So I put a 25 inch QHD monitor next to the iMac and hooked up my 2015 MacBook Pro 15 to it (much faster but still only 16 GB of RAM) and I offloaded everything except for YouTube and NAS videos onto the MacBook Pro and connected the two computers via Synergy. And this setup runs great.

This is my non-workstation for working out and watching videos and writing and other things outside of the Windows PC. The Windows PC is for trading. I'm sure that I'll get an Apple M1 or M1X at some point but it will have at least 32 GB of RAM. It's interesting that I'm swapping, even on the MacBook Pro. It has an SSD so there's no slowdown but I'm not running a full set of programs on this system.

The Macs are running on QHD displays rather than 4k displays so they are easier on the eyes. I use the 4k monitors for work stuff so I can see a lot of information but it requires more effort.
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/microsoft-brings-x64-emulation-to-windows-on-arm-pcs.2274816/

Microsoft today announced the first preview of x64 emulation for Arm PCs, with the feature now available to Windows Insiders in the Dev Channel. That means Windows users who have Arm PCs like the Surface Pro X can now install apps that have not been ported to Arm64.

Microsoft says that while it is expanding the capabilities of its emulator, it recommends that developers implement native Arm support for the best possible app experience.

In the new preview, Windows users can install x64 apps from the Microsoft Store or from other locations, with Microsoft highlighting the availability of x64-only apps like Autodesk Sketchbook and games like Rocket League. Other apps will benefit from being run as 64-bit instead of 32-bit, such as Chrome.

Microsoft says that the new emulation feature is still in the early stages of testing and will continue to improve in compatibility and performance over time, and some of the apps that are run in emulation may not work initially.

Users who are expecting a smooth emulation experience should not get their hopes up because as The Vergepoints out, Microsoft's prior emulation work has not been fantastic, with apps loading and running slowly.

Microsoft has not been able to match Apple's work with Rosetta 2, which is designed to allow M1 Mac users to run Intel-based apps on their machines. Rosetta 2 has proven to be streamlined and speedy, with none of the emulation complaints that Microsoft has faced.

Though an Arm version of Windows is available for PCs, Windows is not compatible with Apple's M1 Macs due to licensing issues. Microsoft only provides Windows 10 on Arm to PC manufacturers to preinstall on their hardware and does not offer a consumer version.
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
Though an Arm version of Windows is available for PCs, Windows is not compatible with Apple's M1 Macs due to licensing issues. Microsoft only provides Windows 10 on Arm to PC manufacturers to preinstall on their hardware and does not offer a consumer version.
That is probably going to be converted to a license if M1 become a popular platform! Microsoft already has this already covered it seems!
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
That is probably going to be converted to a license if M1 become a popular platform! Microsoft already has this already covered it seems!
M1 is currently the best ARM platform out there for PCs so I would expect developers and testers to buy M1s to debug and develop on WARM. I think that it will take Microsoft a few years to get the kinks out. Apple has been working on Rosetta 2, likely since 2007.

This would be really great for Mac buyers who need to run Windows programs.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I really like using the Late 2009 iMac for non-work stuff. It's good enough for me to sell one of my MacBook Pros. I might even sell both of them. That would leave me with my iPads for use outside my office.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I have two setups now. The new PC i7-10700 build and a cluster of three systems: Late 2009 iMac 27", 2015 MacBook Pro 15, 2008 Dell XPS Studio. The Macs have 16 GB of RAM each. The iMac is ancient with only a Core 2 Duo but the 16 GB means that it's moderately responsive for that era. I use it for watching videos while working out, iCloud Notes, web browsing and sometimes email. The MacBook Pro is hooked up to a 25 inch QHD monitor and I run web, email, notes, calendar, reminder on it and will be doing TurboTax on it this season.

The 2008 Dell XPS Studio has a Core i7-920 so very good CPU for its age, and 48 GB of RAM. I generally use it for a bunch of trading webpages, and downloading videos which I put on the NAS. I use this system quite a bit these days but my primary trading system is the i7-10700. This basically means that I like macOS better than Windows but I really don't like the direction that Apple has gone in not being able to upgrade hardware.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Monitor prices are insane. I bought a Dell 4k 27 inch for $350 and $379 a couple of years ago. I bought one recently for $550. They are $650 right now.

The QHDs are $399 - I've bought three of them for about $300 each.

I wonder if it's inflation or just manufacturers have higher input costs due to demand and shortages of workers.
 

Lukhas

Legend
Let's have a good, humoristic round up of (some) the most disappointing pieces of hardware of the year 2020, hosted by Gamers Nexus. :whistle:

 

Tennease

Legend
Monitor prices are insane. I bought a Dell 4k 27 inch for $350 and $379 a couple of years ago. I bought one recently for $550. They are $650 right now.

The QHDs are $399 - I've bought three of them for about $300 each.

I wonder if it's inflation or just manufacturers have higher input costs due to demand and shortages of workers.
In May 2019, I bought a 27" LG 27UK850-W 4K UHD IPS LED Monitor with HDR 10, for USD 670.

It seems computers and tennis gears are expensive in Australia.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
In May 2019, I bought a 27" LG 27UK850-W 4K UHD IPS LED Monitor with HDR 10, for USD 670.

It seems computers and tennis gears are expensive in Australia.
Maybe here too. I haven't shopped for racquets in a long time but I just bought a case of US Open balls and they were $3.75/can which is the most I've ever paid for tennis balls. The last time I bought a case was several years ago and paid about $3/can for Penn ATPs.

You spend a lot of time looking at monitors and eye comfort is important so I will spend for monitors. But it feels just like a bad time to buy them.
 

Lukhas

Legend
At the moment and basically since last Fall, the market to buy anything PC related and especially CPUs and GPUs has been pretty awful. You can still take a look at some reviews here and there of new products, but there's no guarantee whatsoever to put your hands on any of them. A constant and consistent stream of paper releases that are hard to get excited for... even when a laptop CPU promises near desktop performance like the Ryzen 7 5800H mobile CPU.

 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
The Apple M1s are available but I want more RAM. An M1X system would be fine. I’m shopping for old iMacs that can take 32 GB of RAM as a stopgap. I have my recent build for trading and a cluster for entertainment and working out. I’m working on the cluster.
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
The Apple M1s are available but I want more RAM. An M1X system would be fine. I’m shopping for old iMacs that can take 32 GB of RAM as a stopgap. I have my recent build for trading and a cluster for entertainment and working out. I’m working on the cluster.
Apple is going to be releasing MacBook Pros in March and rumor new Mac Pro in June. All with the M silicon inside.

What does “working on the cluster” mean? Are working on a computer cluster?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cluster
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Apple is going to be releasing MacBook Pros in March and rumor new Mac Pro in June. All with the M silicon inside.

What does “working on the cluster” mean? Are working on a computer cluster?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cluster
It's what I call my secondary system. It's composed of a 2008 Dell XPS Studio 435mt (i7-920 with 48 GB RAM), Late 2009 iMac 27, 2015 MacBook Pro. The three systems have adjacent monitors and are controlled by one keyboard and mouse using Synergy. I can just scroll the mouse from machine to machine. I put the appropriate task on the appropriate system and am able to use old hardware efficiently as one system.

The overall system has 80 GB of RAM and 18 cores.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Made an offer for a late 2015 iMac 27 for $375. I'll add 32 GB of RAM for 48 GB and it should run well. This system won't run my trading stuff but it can run my office stuff well.

One thing that I've noticed in looking around for used equipment: the value of the parts can be quite significant. The 2015 iMac 27 has a 27 inch 5k retina display. I paid $466 for a 4k 27 inch display last year. I only found a few 5k models on Amazon, notably the LG Ultrafine, and it's $950.

I looked at a used Inspiron 5680 - and the ask is $450. It has a GTX 1060 though and those are hard to come by right now and listed refurb at $250.

Bitcoin is at $40K right now and this creates a considerable incentive to mine. You can't get the new desktop nVidia GPUs so Chinese miners are buying the mobile versions of nVidia's new GPUs that are in laptops - to run in mining farms. Laptops are not a particularly efficient way to do it but that's all that they can get right now. It's a pretty crazy world for components.

And then I started reading about Zen 4. AMD is talking a sick number of cores for mainstream users.

The computing world is going to change quite a bit this year.
 
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movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I received an email from WalMart that they had 5900X chips in stock. Clicked on the link and they were out of stock. I checked Newegg, Amazon, Best Buy and Microcenter. Only Microcenter has the 5900x and 5950x in stock. But I can't just go there and buy one because of COVID restrictions (the nearest Microcenter is in another state about 50 miles away). So it appears that supply is improving just a bit. I am quite happy with my current setup but could always use more juice. I'll likely just wait until CPUs, motherboards and GPUs are generally available. It's possible that it could be another year as demand for chips is only increasing. Zen 4 will be out by then and this could all be moot.

My current setup is the i7-10700 connected to 2x4k and a 2015 MacBook Pro 15 connect to 1x4k + 1xQHD and this works quite well. I run all of my office stuff on the MacBook Pro and my trading stuff on the Windows build. I also run anything that requires a lot of RAM or CPU on the Windows build. I don't see anything from Intel that's going to give me much more on the horizon that would fit in my motherboard. So I'll just keep an eye on AMD parts. I would like to get an M1X system but Apple's taking their time with those.
 

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
Looks like Apple M1 is not as great as 1st thought at least Intel does not think so. Plus, M1 has now acquired it 1st virus. I not going to jump on the Apple bandwagon until I see what future AMD and Intel CPUs performance are. I think I getting to thrilled by performance, so I better keep with buy 3-4 year old PC machines at dirty cheap prices. Do not need state of the art!
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Looks like Apple M1 is not as great as 1st thought at least Intel does not think so. Plus, M1 has now acquired it 1st virus. I not going to jump on the Apple bandwagon until I see what future AMD and Intel CPUs performance are. I think I getting to thrilled by performance, so I better keep with buy 3-4 year old PC machines at dirty cheap prices. Do not need state of the art!
Someone got Rocket League running on an M1 after Intel said it doesn't run on M1. M1 is Apple's low-end processor. They are selling like mad. Single core performance is better than anything else out there right now. It really blows away everything else out there if you normalize for performance per watt. Zen 4 single-core should beat M1. I think that Rocket Lake will be close to M1 but using a ridiculous amount of power. Apple should have the A15 by next fall though, at least on the iPhone so you'll get an idea as to what their IPC improvements are. The thing is that the architectural deficiencies of x86 (variable instruction length and the requirement of 32-bit support), will continue to handicap the architecture compared to ARM and it's not something that Intel or AMD can overcome.

So M1 has a virus or two. How many does x86 have? Millions?

We have a MacBook Air/M1. It is the best laptop we've ever owned in a variety of measures. The only reason I haven't bought one for myself is because the M1X will double the performance in CPU and GPU and still use ridiculously little power making for great battery life.
 

Lukhas

Legend
Unfortunately, it seems that as I feared months ago, the first M1 line of computers still have quite a few things that need to be ironed out. The sarcastic man in me would dare say "ironed out... in time for the next versions", though I don't really wish that upon anyone. That being said, it does reaffirm my own beliefs in that I cannot honestly recommend a computer which storage is soldered on the motherboard and/or not easily accessible, regardless of the brand (I have some of the Surface laptops in mind when saying that...).


Anyway and in lighter topics, as well as for anyone who still thought Userbenchmarks were a reliable source of information... maybe you want to read what happens when they fly off the handle. It's genuinely hilarious. :whistle:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/m0e5eq
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Unfortunately, it seems that as I feared months ago, the first M1 line of computers still have quite a few things that need to be ironed out. The sarcastic man in me would dare say "ironed out... in time for the next versions", though I don't really wish that upon anyone. That being said, it does reaffirm my own beliefs in that I cannot honestly recommend a computer which storage is soldered on the motherboard and/or not easily accessible, regardless of the brand (I have some of the Surface laptops in mind when saying that...).


Anyway and in lighter topics, as well as for anyone who still thought Userbenchmarks were a reliable source of information... maybe you want to read what happens when they fly off the handle. It's genuinely hilarious. :whistle:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/m0e5eq
You take a risk in any Gen 1 product and Apple is no different. That said, it appears that the SSD write issue is generally seen by heavy users. My daughter's see zero SWAP which is why I ordered 16 GB of RAM. The next version will have at least 2x CPU and 2x GPU and more than I need - actually a lot more horsepower than my Windows build.

On Intel getting a raw deal - when they have to run their CPUs at 200 Watts to win in single-core benchmarks - they deserve a raw deal.

I read that AMD was discussing whether or not they should increase core counts for Zen 4. They probably looked at what Intel is offering for Rocket Lake and Alder Lake and thought - we don't really need to increase core counts by 50% to 100%. Intel is dead to me until 13th generation at least. Apple could take my business with M1X. I would look at AMD - if I could get AMD at MSRP (5800X is available but not the 5900X or 5950X) and a decent GPU at MSRP. Intel does have a huge advantage though - they have their own fabs to build their slow and high power consumption CPUs.
 
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