New school MP Spin frames vs. open pattern Oversize

BlueB

Legend
Just a thought that crossed my mind other day…
What exactly is the advantage of the “new school” MP Spin frames over the open pattern OS frames? To me the extra number of strings on OS is offset by larger spacing in the bigger head. Plus, with OS you get bigger sweet spot, more Twist Weight (torsional stability – resisting twist about handle axis) and possibly more comfort. Also, on an OS one can choose to not string the bottom cross and further reduce the number of crosses.
The only thing I can see in favour of the Spin frames is that the sweet spot sits a bit higher. This can be equalised by a 0.25” – 0.5” longer handle on the OS…

Few years ago, I had a Head MG Raptor OS. It was 16x19, with unusually even spacing of strings (very open in the centre). I weighed and balanced it to 320g, 320 SW, 6 HL. That thing was able to hit more top spin then anything else I played with…

My feeling is that racquet companies just needed to come up with something ‘new’, where consumers wouldn’t just turn around and say “ah just another OS, another ‘granny stick’, another beginner frame, etc.”.

Discuss…
 

MikeHitsHard93

Hall of Fame
Just a thought that crossed my mind other day…
What exactly is the advantage of the “new school” MP Spin frames over the open pattern OS frames? To me the extra number of strings on OS is offset by larger spacing in the bigger head. Plus, with OS you get bigger sweet spot, more Twist Weight (torsional stability – resisting twist about handle axis) and possibly more comfort. Also, on an OS one can choose to not string the bottom cross and further reduce the number of crosses.
The only thing I can see in favour of the Spin frames is that the sweet spot sits a bit higher. This can be equalised by a 0.25” – 0.5” longer handle on the OS…

Few years ago, I had a Head MG Raptor OS. It was 16x19, with unusually even spacing of strings (very open in the centre). I weighed and balanced it to 320g, 320 SW, 6 HL. That thing was able to hit more top spin then anything else I played with…

My feeling is that racquet companies just needed to come up with something ‘new’, where consumers wouldn’t just turn around and say “ah just another OS, another ‘granny stick’, another beginner frame, etc.”.

Discuss…
Great post. I'd like to know what people think about this.
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
The newer MPs are so fast to swing, and are made with a lot of inherent power. This is coming from a guy who pretty much loves old school frames, but finally is taking a break from them.

Its just really easy to rip with a 100 that weighs under 12 ounces but still has plow due to the polarized weighting.

I have played OS's and they feel a lot more cumbersome to me.
 

BlueB

Legend
The newer MPs are so fast to swing, and are made with a lot of inherent power. This is coming from a guy who pretty much loves old school frames, but finally is taking a break from them.
Its just really easy to rip with a 100 that weighs under 12 ounces but still has plow due to the polarized weighting.
I have played OS's and they feel a lot more cumbersome to me.
Let's just not get mixed up here... I'm talking of an OS of similar spec to a MP Spin frame. Old "old school" players frames are not even in the discussion.
 

BlueB

Legend
I agree about the RHS being super important for spin.
However, the maneuverability should be the same with all the specs and W distribution the same... The increase in surface area on an OS frame is so small that the air drag increase is negligable.
 

Fuji

Legend
With OS frames I feel as though I have too much racket head to deal with, regardless of balance it's just not usually a great time. I'm sure I could adjust to it if needed, but I like the way a 100 Sq inch frame feels through the air, the same way that guys who play with 90's and below do. :razz:

-Fuji
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
Ever serve with a 90?

I just personally hit a point of diminishing returns around 102 or so. I found it harder to play a spin game with an os racquet. The difference is there to me. The 98-102 size is optimal for high tip speed and still having a large surface area. Last os i used was a youtek radical os.

90 is great for tip speed,110 goes the other way.
 

Fuji

Legend
Ever serve with a 90?

I just personally hit a point of diminishing returns around 102 or so. I found it harder to play a spin game with an os racquet. The difference is there to me. The 98-102 size is optimal for high tip speed and still having a large surface area. Last os i used was a youtek radical os.

90 is great for tip speed,110 goes the other way.
Yup! I used the KPS88 for a while, then switched to the Prestige Mid. Serving with them is cool, but I honestly find that the tip goes too fast on kickers sometimes, and I actually catch a lot of serves too early with them. Definitely not blaming the racket, but they literally come through too smooth for me to handle sometimes haha.

-Fuji
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
With OS frames I feel as though I have too much racket head to deal with, regardless of balance it's just not usually a great time. I'm sure I could adjust to it if needed, but I like the way a 100 Sq inch frame feels through the air, the same way that guys who play with 90's and below do. :razz:

-Fuji
Yeah, exactly my point. I see it the same way. The OS just goes through the air slower to me.
 

TobyTopspin

Professional
I feel the same way. I played with the POG OS for about 10 years and the maneuverability suffers on flat serves and around the net for me. I guess it's just the wind resistance that the larger head has as it refuses to cut through the air or it could be the the weight of the outsides of the hoop is farther from the center point of the head. I'm not an engineer, I just know I can't move it as easily.
 

BlueB

Legend
That would be the shear weight and SW of the POGs... Even between the generations there are significant differences: The one stripe with gromet strip are 350-360g and 340-345 SW, the 4-stripe and Straigth Shafts are 340-350g and 326-332 SW. Huge difference.

I have a POG Straight Shaft that is balanced to absolutely the same spac as my Head PT280 (107 head vs. 95 head). They swing exactely the same. Head puts less spin on the ball due to denser string pattern.

^ But we are again into old old school discussion here...

Anyone else tried a lighter OS of a spec identical to a modern MP, both 16x19? What produced more spin?
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
I did. Like I posted - a youtek Radical OS. Pretty cool stick, but felt cumbersome to me.

I get more spin and speed out of a 100 size head.
 

Hi I'm Ray

Professional
Just a thought that crossed my mind other day…
What exactly is the advantage of the “new school” MP Spin frames over the open pattern OS frames? To me the extra number of strings on OS is offset by larger spacing in the bigger head. Plus, with OS you get bigger sweet spot, more Twist Weight (torsional stability – resisting twist about handle axis) and possibly more comfort. Also, on an OS one can choose to not string the bottom cross and further reduce the number of crosses.
The only thing I can see in favour of the Spin frames is that the sweet spot sits a bit higher. This can be equalised by a 0.25” – 0.5” longer handle on the OS…

Few years ago, I had a Head MG Raptor OS. It was 16x19, with unusually even spacing of strings (very open in the centre). I weighed and balanced it to 320g, 320 SW, 6 HL. That thing was able to hit more top spin then anything else I played with…

My feeling is that racquet companies just needed to come up with something ‘new’, where consumers wouldn’t just turn around and say “ah just another OS, another ‘granny stick’, another beginner frame, etc.”.

Discuss…
Are you talking about the "spin technology" type frames in particular or just any "new school" mp that is supposed to be good w/spin?

I have only used the Wilson 99s & 105s out of the new spin-tech frames. The shots from 99s sat up a lot and were easy to attack. The 105s felt great and the shots looked fast from my end but everything kept coming back with a huge drop in unforced errors from my opponent. When I asked about it later, he said the shots slowed down a lot after the bounce and made them easier to return. Despite the spin-tech from the two steams, I get much faster and more penetrating shots from normal frames.

Lately I have been playing 4 of my OS frames, all are or modified to be very light and swing fast, alongside my usual 100 and 98sq in frames. First off there is a big difference between OS frames so they shouldn't be generalized. Most OS frames do feel more cumbersome but this is largely counteracted by keeping them lighter than the MP's. On groundstrokes it looks like I am getting more spin from the MP's, although the one OS frame with a 18x20 pattern is producing noticeably more spin and penetration than the other OS 16x19's. I am not seeing that much spin on serves with the OS frames but 3 out of 4 are producing huge power on flat serves comparable to the PD, one with even more power than a PD+. The biggest difference I see between OS & MP is an increase in power and huge sweetspot with OS.

In short it really still depends on the individual frame and how it's set up, and not so much on the specs, number of strings, etc..
 
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BlueB

Legend
I 'm talking about MPs with Spin technology, the latest craze. My point was that wit 16x19 OS frame, you get pretty spase string pattern almost like on 16x16 MP Spintech.

Thanks for the elaborate post. Interesting findings... Especially on the serve, where your results are pretty much oposite from mine...
 
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Ramon

Legend
One point I thought I'd bring up is the limitation on strings. I'm playing with a 98 sq in 16x16 ESP racquet, and this racquet is already pushing the limits of today's strings. The strings have to be durable and able to withstand high tension, and even then they might not last more than 5-6 hours for an advanced player. If you made the racquet bigger and more open, the string life and tension requirement would not be practical for most advanced players. On the other hand, a lower level recreational player might be ok with synthetic gut at 60-65 pounds on the same frame.
 

mikeler

Moderator
One point I thought I'd bring up is the limitation on strings. I'm playing with a 98 sq in 16x16 ESP racquet, and this racquet is already pushing the limits of today's strings. The strings have to be durable and able to withstand high tension, and even then they might not last more than 5-6 hours for an advanced player. If you made the racquet bigger and more open, the string life and tension requirement would not be practical for most advanced players. On the other hand, a lower level recreational player might be ok with synthetic gut at 60-65 pounds on the same frame.
Yeah don't buy the new Prince ESPs unless you string for yourself or are independently wealthy!
 

BlueB

Legend
...If you made the racquet bigger and more open, the string life and tension requirement would not be practical...
That's a fair comment.
But, again, I'm NOT suggesting a bigger frame with less strings - I'm specullating that an OS frame with normal (16x19 or 16x18) pattern is almost as open as the new "spin" MPs with reduced nuber of strings, thus might be as efficient in spin production.
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
The whole thing about the new spin MPs is that the cross count is either less or equal to the mains. That results in less friction against the poly mains, resulting in more snapback.

So a regular pattern OS stringed would not behave in the same way.
 

SCRAP IRON

Professional
The newer MPs are so fast to swing, and are made with a lot of inherent power. This is coming from a guy who pretty much loves old school frames, but finally is taking a break from them.

Its just really easy to rip with a 100 that weighs under 12 ounces but still has plow due to the polarized weighting.

I have played OS's and they feel a lot more cumbersome to me.

This man is right on. The newer frames have the same power as the OS with the open string pattern. I think of the Blade 98s and I compared it to the POG and the new Blade was just easier to use. I do still like the feel of the POG to this day.
 

Hi I'm Ray

Professional
I 'm talking about MPs with Spin technology, the latest craze. My point was that wit 16x19 OS frame, you get pretty spase string pattern almost like on 16x16 MP Spintech.

Thanks for the elaborate post. Interesting findings... Especially on the serve, where your results are pretty much oposite from mine...
I read that before, that OS usually produces more spin than power on serve. I think the individual racket, setup, and how it matches the player makes a big difference.
The OS frames I've been using lately are all a bit different but the ones that seem to swing fastest produce the fastest serves. 1st is a standard length that is very stiff, 2nd is more flexible but still power oriented and extended. 3rd is an actual old school, 22mm straight beam OS that was very heavy which I modded and took a load of weight off of - I was surprised that it swung very fast afterwards and even more surprised by the power on serve.
The 4th is actually the stiffest and has the most spin and power off the ground but feels very sluggish thru the serve motion and produces the least power there. Of course that might all be different for those who rely more on mass for serves or something else.
They all have the same strings and similar stringbed stiffness btw.

Yes, you might be on to something with the open pattern of some OS frames in comparison with some spin-tech frames - the crosses are not quite as open as the steams, but with 1 (only) of the OS frames I do find it easier to put sidespin on some topspin shots or arch the ball in a weird kind of way that I'm not sure how to describe, except it doesn't sit up or slow down after the bounce like the steams.
 
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