New serve motion

[Ihatetennis]

Hey guys, I've switched my serve motion up a lot.

I'm not sure why anyone would need to jump into their serve when you can get as much and more power from just pushing forward and leaving a foot on the ground

My new serve is on top.

With my new serve im serving more aces than before. In a match last weekend I had the best serving day of my life with over 20 aces in a 3 set win

 

[Deleted member 23235]

interesting that you're switching to 1920's rules (eg. must keep 1 foot on the ground)

I think the picture of "jumping into their serve" implies that you're visualizing the jump as a means for increasing the height of your contact point?

I mean yes, that might be so, but to me it's not why I elevate... I use my lower body to initiate the movement of the racquet... it's kinda like throwing a ball from stationary, vs. throwing a ball from a car moving 10mph.
Also, while I could hit flat all the time, I prefer topslice serves for consistency and placement (albeit with less pace),... and elevating up and into the ball helps get more topspin component... and in this case I'm not elevating to increase my contact point, but to increase the speed of the racquet moving upwards into the ball... contacting higher just means I can load my legs slightly more.
That said, coordinating a bigger lower body push makes timing more complicated.

I know you're serve is good/big already, but eliminating/reducing the lower leg push (to the point you're not elevating) means you're leaving something on the table.

 

[mbm0912]

Beautiful serve

 

[Ihatetennis]

interesting that you're switching to 1920's rules (eg. must keep 1 foot on the ground)

I think the picture of "jumping into their serve" implies that you're visualizing the jump as a means for increasing the height of your contact point?

I mean yes, that might be so, but to me it's not why I elevate... I use my lower body to initiate the movement of the racquet... it's kinda like throwing a ball from stationary, vs. throwing a ball from a car moving 10mph.
Also, while I could hit flat all the time, I prefer topslice serves for consistency and placement (albeit with less pace),... and elevating up and into the ball helps get more topspin component... and in this case I'm not elevating to increase my contact point, but to increase the speed of the racquet moving upwards into the ball... contacting higher just means I can load my legs slightly more.
That said, coordinating a bigger lower body push makes timing more complicated.

I know you're serve is good/big already, but eliminating/reducing the lower leg push (to the point you're not elevating) means you're leaving something on the table.

I'll take a video from the side, as you can see i bend my knees and do get off the ground with my back foot, but rather than pushing up I push forward.

jumping could be used as a way to get a higher contact point, luckily im not that short

I did used to jump into my serve a lot more, but now i just push forward instead of up

i only hit flat serves when i know my opponent struggles with pace

usually i will opt for a slice or kick, and second serve is always a heavy kick

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I'll take a video from the side, as you can see i bend my knees and do get off the ground with my back foot, but rather than pushing up I push forward.

The push in my mind is up and into the court (eg. like diagonally up).
I think you're leaving something on the table by not *also* elevating with your front leg... I like the idea of pushing up with both legs...

That said, even without the leg drive, your serve is bigger than mine

 

[LeeD]

Tennis is always about a compromise between power, consistency, replicability, and performance under pressure.
The solid foot on ground is balanced by a loss of angles of a lower contact point. If your opponent's can't handle your serves, your serve is good enough. However, some opponent's are better.
As I age, I find a foot on the ground much better for consistent power, placement, and replicabilty under pressure points. However, I'm 66, and don't play any 25 year old 4.5+'s.
Use what is working for you NOW, because it will change, as probably as soon as you face an opponent who can handle your serves.

 

[Ihatetennis]

Tennis is always about a compromise between power, consistency, replicability, and performance under pressure.
The solid foot on ground is balanced by a loss of angles of a lower contact point. If your opponent's can't handle your serves, your serve is good enough. However, some opponent's are better.
As I age, I find a foot on the ground much better for consistent power, placement, and replicabilty under pressure points. However, I'm 66, and don't play any 25 year old 4.5+'s.
Use what is working for you NOW, because it will change, as probably as soon as you face an opponent who can handle your serves.

This is actually the best way i could describe it, I had my serve measured (no warm up just some stretches prior) at the us open on the kids day and i put 2 105 down the tee, this motion just lets me keep everything together and is more reliable over the course of the match



I am still working on it and i will show some of my slice and kick serves on here proably in a couple of days when i get a chance to film it

most players can hadle the pace, which is why in addition i can hit a slice and kick serve with that same ball toss, now i just need the velocity pistol pete had and maybe i can serve as well as him

but this new motion was just to shorten up the motion and keep things from going wrong under pressure, timing is always the same now and very few issues with consistency

edit: this serve is faster off my racket than the 105 i hit in nyc, but my courts and my practice balls are not as good as brand new balls so it bounces a lot slower and lower than what it usually does with brand new balls

 

[Ihatetennis]

The push in my mind is up and into the court (eg. like diagonally up).
I think you're leaving something on the table by not *also* elevating with your front leg... I like the idea of pushing up with both legs...

That said, even without the leg drive, your serve is bigger than mine

i will try it out, if i can serve better considerably i will be looking to make a small change

 

[Alien]

Despite your perception you are indeed leaving power on the table. If you jump several inches, the body starts pushing up but the arm/racquet remains in same position and when it catches up it adds speed.
Dont underestimate the gain in height as 2-3 inches are useful for everybody. Karlovic, Isner and Raonic jump, and I dont think they are smaller than you...
If I remember it right I have read that legs jump gives 10-15% of the power of the serve. That is what you are wasting in favour of probably a better coordination.

 

[Ihatetennis]

Despite your perception you are indeed leaving power on the table. If you jump several inches, the body starts pushing up but the arm/racquet remains in same position and when it catches up it adds speed.
Dont underestimate the gain in height as 2-3 inches are useful for everybody. Karlovic, Isner and Raonic jump, and I dont think they are smaller than you...
If I remember it right I have read that legs jump gives 10-15% of the power of the serve. That is what you are wasting in favour of probably a better coordination.

if i jump maybe i will reach 115 or 120 serve speeds, hmm ill definitly try it out more

im going to try it out, i hope it helps more, but as of right now im serving one of the best serves in my group, unfortunately my everything else is in the top 15-20% rather than top 5% like my serve

 

[LeeD]

If you serve 105 with your new feet to the ground motion, you might up it to 111 max by jumping. However, it's possible the higher contact point gives you a bigger, wider court to serve into, so you create more aces and unretunables just by being taller (higher contact point sees more court to hit into).
But for me, jumping also reduces my consistency, so I miss more first serves, which balances out the equation.

 

[dgold44]

I HATE TENNIS.
Noticed a major flaw in your serve you need to correct. You are really hunching over too much at contact. You need to remain nice and TALL !!!!!
Always STAY TALL ON SERVE
You are bending your upper body over

 

[coupergear]

Nice form but agree with others...this is just an upper body serve. The form looks great in your upper body motion, but comparing to a pro serve, you have no upward leg drive. So if looking to take it to next level, add legs. I'm in same boat as Leed, once I try to drive upward more, tends to throw off my timing. So its not an insignificant change to make, but in the pursuit of continual improvement, and given your youth, don't be complacent with what you have.

 

[kramer woodie]

Hey guys, I've switched my serve motion up a lot.

I'm not sure why anyone would need to jump into their serve when you can get as much and more power from just pushing forward and leaving a foot on the ground

My new serve is on top.

With my new serve im serving more aces than before. In a match last weekend I had the best serving day of my life with over 20 aces in a 3 set win

Ihatetennis

In the 60's an old man at the time, taught serving to students by having them throw old racquets over the net. No ball involved, just throw the racquet over
the net into the service court. The serving rule at that time was, "one foot had to remain at all times touching the court". No jumping was allowed. The
rule change came about I believe in 1969 allowing jumping. Why? I believe rule changed to help shorter players be more competitive as tall players
were playing serve and volley. Big first serve from tall pros facilitated the serve and volley game. If tall you could hit a down angle into the court, if
short you had to hit a slower spin serve. Another thing with the 60's serving style, if right-handed, the follow through of the serve found your right foot
landed inside the baseline first, not the left foot. I noticed in your 2nd video you are jumping slightly as your left foot lands first inside the baseline.

More leg drive would allow you to have a higher contact point which would give you more of a downward angle into the service box. However,
with a truly old style keep one foot on the ground at all times you could have a serve like Stan Smith, Richard Gonzales, etc. and they had 120mph
with wood racquets. They also were able to serve flat, slice, kick, and american twist with that serving style. Just remember which ever way you
choose that the power does not come from muscle, but comes from racquet head speed via forearm wrist pronation.

Aloha

Aloha

 

[Ihatetennis]

I HATE TENNIS.
Noticed a major flaw in your serve you need to correct. You are really hunching over too much at contact. You need to remain nice and TALL !!!!!
Always STAY TALL ON SERVE
You are bending your upper body over

Okay, I shall check this out,

As far as the whole not muscling it, lol I've lost a lot of weight recently(stupid growing body, ironically) and weigh at about 130, (lost 15 pounds in last 2 months to changes in my diet and workout routine

I'm the last person muscling serves into the hundreds lol

 

[Ihatetennis]

Ihatetennis

In the 60's an old man at the time, taught serving to students by having them throw old racquets over the net. No ball involved, just throw the racquet over
the net into the service court. The serving rule at that time was, "one foot had to remain at all times touching the court". No jumping was allowed. The
rule change came about I believe in 1969 allowing jumping. Why? I believe rule changed to help shorter players be more competitive as tall players
were playing serve and volley. Big first serve from tall pros facilitated the serve and volley game. If tall you could hit a down angle into the court, if
short you had to hit a slower spin serve. Another thing with the 60's serving style, if right-handed, the follow through of the serve found your right foot
landed inside the baseline first, not the left foot. I noticed in your 2nd video you are jumping slightly as your left foot lands first inside the baseline.

More leg drive would allow you to have a higher contact point which would give you more of a downward angle into the service box. However,
with a truly old style keep one foot on the ground at all times you could have a serve like Stan Smith, Richard Gonzales, etc. and they had 120mph
with wood racquets. They also were able to serve flat, slice, kick, and american twist with that serving style. Just remember which ever way you
choose that the power does not come from muscle, but comes from racquet head speed via forearm wrist pronation.

Aloha

Aloha

Second video was 2 years ago, older form

 

[dgold44]

Ihate, be happy you are naturally thin than FAT.
I am glad I have that problem too

 

[RetroSpin]

I am dubious that jumping adds any pace to the serve. Does an NFL QB jump when he is throwing a long pass? Going airborne does two things. It gives you a better angle, and it gets you into the court when you land, which was a necessity when people played mainly S & V. I'm not saying there should be no leg involvement, only that leaving the ground is unnecessary.

Plus, the jumping term is easily misunderstood. Tell most people to jump and they will bend at the hips and knees. Most high level servers do not flex their hip joint much if at all, only their knees and ankles. Sam Groth is a notable exception. They get in the air by hopping off their toes.

 

[MotoboXer]

looks like the Stanimal serve he doesnt jump and hes a champion
keep it up no need to change anything.

 

[gallen1999]

Jumping is the reaction of explosive power from the legs. If you can be just as explosive and generate just as much power from the legs then go ahead.

 

[Aretium]

Using your legs will take pressure off of the rest of your body. Don't listen to morons here saying "legs aren't important". The most important part of the legs is actually to shield the hips/core/back and eventually shoulder. The legs can protect these parts of the body.

Nice arm, really lively. Why not use your legs, if it kills power, then your doing something wrong. It will raise your serve percentage.

 

[RetroSpin]

Morons? Anyway, the issues was jumping, not using legs.

 

[GuyClinch]

QBs dont need to jump - because if they really want to throw the long ball - like a baseball or javelin throwing they can go with a running start.. That will add alot more distance to your throw then jumping. It's so weird that jumping is legal but a running start is not. OP has a nice serve though. Getting the motion correct is way more important then jumping..

Every once in a while you see someone do this big jump then hit the ball like 2 miles an hour and slow their swing down..hehe.

 

[Aretium]

Morons? Anyway, the issues was jumping, not using legs.

Ok, I apologise, but how many of you really know what you are saying. Stating that Wawrinka doesn't jump is like saying vaccines cause autism, there is only one in a million papers that shows a link and even that one was false (in this case, because Wawrinka DOES lift off).

 

[Aretium]

The result is more important than the "journey" to get there. Using your legs is something that will take a LONG time to perfect. You shouldn't think about jumping, you should think about coiling the body with the knee bend and then releasing it all at the very last minute, there is no point bending your knees if you are going to slowly unbend them.

OP, if you have gotten comfortable with this service motion, you can start bending the knees in practice and then working on the timing. Ultimately, the last 20% of your available power is in the legs. But if you are hitting 20 aces in a 3 set match, you probably are 5.0+ player and really don't need help haha.

 

[MotoboXer]

I think we can all agree on "jump" not being the best word so lets call it elevation, as you get bigger your feet may start getting off the ground but
for now you should stick with what works. As long as you can hit slices/kicks (you said you could) then you're fine.
Yes more elevation will get more mph/action on the ball but it might get you more double-faults, if your fine with that and dont get very frustrated then go ahead and work at it.
Wawrinka and Jack Sock really dont get much elevation..

 

[Ihatetennis]

Okay, so legs can add power

Serve speed is basically dependant on how fast you can swing your racket

How would you use leg explosion to accelerate the racket beyond what is already achievable

I push forward and get my body into my serve, if i jump i am not rotating my body as much, unless of course my motion is basically the same, but as my right leg passes my left leg i also have my left leg leaving the ground

so i push off the ground, but slightly timed differently with the legs.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Okay, so legs can add power

Serve speed is basically dependant on how fast you can swing your racket

How would you use leg explosion to accelerate the racket beyond what is already achievable

I push forward and get my body into my serve, if i jump i am not rotating my body as much, unless of course my motion is basically the same, but as my right leg passes my left leg i also have my left leg leaving the ground

so i push off the ground, but slightly timed differently with the legs.

I think of the upward leg drive similar to a basketball jumpshot.
By coordinating the leg drive with the arms pushing up, you get much longer range on your shot.
Similarly, by coordinating the leg drive with when the racquet is coming up from the "back scratch" position, you can accelerate the racquet faster.

Hypothetically let's say you're serving flat footed, legs don't bend or come up off the ground... and you're able to accelerate the racquet from the "back scratch" position, to the ball, to 100mph (from a stationary base)...
but when you add the upward leg drive (let's say your feet don't get off the ground), let's say it adds 5mph (only upwards)
but when you an upward leg drive that is so big that it elevates you from say a foot off the ground, it adds another 15mph (again only upwards)

When I was a kid, when I used to "jump" into my serve,.. but back then I used to think it was like volley ball serve,.. or in basketball terms, a double pump shot (or like a delayed layup)... where I'd jump as high as I could, then start my arms swinging (so my upward drive was not in sync with my arms).... and I used to think, what's the point of the jump, it's not contributing to the serve,... or generally made it harder for what I thought was just a high contact point (for consistency).

That said, since there's alot of power sources contributing to the serve, too much of one thing is generally not a good thing (in terms of making the stroke repeatable) or at the very least will take longer to master/coordinate.

my $0.02. I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts,... especially since my serve is probably the weakest part of my game.

 

[NLBwell]

Michael Stich had one of the best serves in history and his foot did not move off the ground very much.
Note that his back foot moves into the court instead of kicking backwards which aids in serve-and-volley.

 

[LeeD]

MIchael Stich is around 6'4", taller than even Boris Becker. That leverage and hit contact point, without much elevation, allow his ball to "see" more court than most of us.
You can say that about Goran also, another 6'4" player.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Frame #1. The legs are about maximum bend as the toss is going up. Use net ribbon as a reference point for knee position.

Frame #2. Racket at Trophy Position positioned for leg thrust to begin. The red marks indicate the distance from the baseline to the head, on my computer screen measuring 107 mm.

Frame #3. This frame looks close to maximum external shoulder rotation (ESR), by how far the forearm is rotated back. As far as maximum ESR is concerned, Frame #4 also looks about the same to me. Compare to high level servers and estimate max ESR. A high speed video camera and a better viewing angle might help show the forearm orientation. The max ESR should be less without effective leg thrust and then the internal shoulder muscles should have less pre-stretch. But you can make up for smaller leg thrust contribution somewhat with other motions that also produce ESR and stretch ISR muscles. Using other sources, Cartwheel, Trunk Twist, etc. has been discussed in tennis research publications.

Frame #4. The legs have thrust and the knees are straight and the head is at its high point, 110 mm on my screen. The racket has dropped back. The ball is coming down. The head rose from 107 to 110 mm, up only 3 mm, or less that 3% of original head height. I don't know if the camera viewing angle and wide angle lens may have distorted Frame #4 for measuring height. ? Compare to high level serves. Use similar camera viewing angles. I think the head rises more for high level serves. Your body seems to have become bent, is that from leg thrust? Instead of a jump raising the body did you get a body bend? Not sure how that bend compares to high level servers.

Frame #5. Approaching impact. At this time, I guess close to impact, I think that your elbow has a flexion angle in it that is large compared to high level serves that have about a near straight arm approaching impact. (Note - this is the elbow angle and not the upper arm angle at the shoulder that Ellenbecker discusses in his video, "Rotator Cuff Injury".) Also, the wrist to racket angle might be too straight. ? The slow 30 fps video and the camera angle may be making the racket appear closer to the ball than it is. ? Camera frame rate and viewing angle can make a difference on how these angles look. Raising the camera off the ground might reduce some distortions.

Your look as if you have a very good serve. I'm not sure of how your racket moves from the Big L position to impact because of the 30 fps frame rate. Your elbow angle just before impact is bent instead of a near straight arm, looks like an issue. Your minimal jump elevation reduces how much your shoulder rises and therefore gets less muscle stretch for ISR. Instead of rising from the jump, maybe you bend your body forward, stretch muscles there and somehow get some of the pace back that you're not getting from the usual leg thrust. ?

I just point out what I think are differences between your serves and high level serves.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Pat Dougherty talking about the 1961 rule change for the serve that allowed both feet to leave the ground and led to development of the current serving technique with jumping.

 

[Chas Tennis]

You appear to have minimal Somersault (forward bend) and the right leg does not kick up behind you as on high level serves. Take a side view video to examine this issue.

 

[ZPTennis]

When you first start practicing your serves using more legs you will not see an increase in power. This is bc the timing in your kinetic chain will be thrown off from what you are used to. Once you get in sync with practice your serve speed will increase. It might take a while to get down.

 

[oble]

Okay, I shall check this out,

As far as the whole not muscling it, lol I've lost a lot of weight recently(stupid growing body, ironically) and weigh at about 130, (lost 15 pounds in last 2 months to changes in my diet and workout routine

I'm the last person muscling serves into the hundreds lol

I don't know, but most pros lean forward and slightly off to the left at contact. From the vids, and the screenshot from Chas, it looks like you do lean forward and to the left from the hips but not hunched over. You're fine in that regards IMO.

 

[RetroSpin]

I wish serv doc, ie Pat Gougherty, would weigh in here on the relative importance of leg drive. His vid above dealt more with upper body angle but the jist of it is that over emphasis on leg drive can lead to problems.

I will note that the biggest server in the game, Sam Groth, shows very little "limbo" upper body bend and has much more hip flex than most other top servers. IOW he has more of an up and down motion and doesn't lean back much, at least not until he comes out of drop. This poses a dilemma for me, as I believe we should not base technique on "high level" players but rather should focus on the very elite. Many of the research articles seem to be based on college players or other good but not world class players. My thesis is that the very best may have micro moves that are difficult to see in normal video but which give them the elite stroke. Now the contrary thesis is that they are just super elite athletes with other-worldly gifts. I think Groth may well fall into that camp. The rest of his game is not even really Tour level, but he has one of the best serves in history. It's just that his motion is one that is probably very hard for the rec player to duplicate.

I think there are other big servers, like Taylor Dent and Isner, who have pure motions that are easier to replicate.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I wish serv doc, ie Pat Gougherty, would weigh in here on the relative importance of leg drive. His vid above dealt more with upper body angle but the jist of it is that over emphasis on leg drive can lead to problems.

I will note that the biggest server in the game, Sam Groth, shows very little "limbo" upper body bend and has much more hip flex than most other top servers. IOW he has more of an up and down motion and doesn't lean back much, at least not until he comes out of drop. This poses a dilemma for me, as I believe we should not base technique on "high level" players but rather should focus on the very elite. Many of the research articles seem to be based on college players or other good but not world class players. My thesis is that the very best may have micro moves that are difficult to see in normal video but which give them the elite stroke. Now the contrary thesis is that they are just super elite athletes with other-worldly gifts. I think Groth may well fall into that camp. The rest of his game is not even really Tour level, but he has one of the best serves in history. It's just that his motion is one that is probably very hard for the rec player to duplicate.

I think there are other big servers, like Taylor Dent and Isner, who have pure motions that are easier to replicate.

All top level servers jump and I'd assume that all the elite players do also. I'd guess that most rec players, 3.0 to 4.5 level also jump but have not looked to estimate stats. Jumping helps with the Waiter's Tray serve also because mainly the same muscles are used and stretching helps. I'd say this forum is read mostly by 3.5-4.5 players.

Will study you views on Groth.

In my opinion, Sam Groth has a very low toss and that might be a factor. He is also very strongly built.

The biography of Rosco Tanner had very little technique discussion of his world leading heavy paced serve. I have not found a high speed film of his serve. One thing that he mentioned was that he, like Groth, had a very low toss. He thought this toss forced rapid motion from him and was valuable also because the returner was not used to the ball being served so soon after Tanner took position. He mentioned a drill for his very early tennis. He hit leaves on a tree. I can't recall the height of his jump, one leg looked casual....

You mention micro moves, any speculations of what might be unseen in the videos?

Highest level serving motions are probably impossible for 99.999+....% of the population to duplicate or, for that matter, for a very considerable percent of the ATP players to duplicate. But the serving motions of most top 100 ATP players are very similar in technique between the Trophy Position and impact. Some have weaker ISR as seen by simply looking at the elbow shadows as markers.

The basic biomechanics of the muscle cells of all people are the same. What are they capable of doing? These basic muscle cell characteristics relate to how much the stretch shorten cycle is used for the component motions. If you're not using enough SSC as a rec player you are limited for tennis strokes. Almost none of the 3.5-4.5 players understand or are attempting to duplicate what the high level servers are doing. That's my opinion based based on the videos that have been posted in this forum and some videos of people I play tennis with. 40-50% use a Waiter's Tray Technique. Some posters and some of my friends have ISR. I asked one who was doing ISR if he had had any tennis instruction. He said that he had not.

The OP appears to have much of the proper technique and some baggage. None of the baggage, like the bend in the elbow before impact (if verified by farther video comparisons), seem out of reach for him to change.

I have not seen lesser stroke techniques specified for rec players. It seems that all strokes should have a description so that players understand their goals. The high level strokes are studied and specified. It would be valuable for some authority to specify lesser strokes if those specs could be based on more than the arguments and research that I've seen.

The Pat Dougherty video, "Hammer that Serve", addressing the Waiter's Tray Serve (hammer technique) is the closest thing that I have seen. He discusses how to improve the WT.

It's chaos.

 

[donquijote]

Troll thread? I remember OP's other thread 'how I hit my FH like Federer' (or something like that). Hard to believe he can produce 20 aces in a match with a serve like that unless he's playing against some beginners.

 

[Ihatetennis]

Troll thread? I remember OP's other thread 'how I hit my FH like Federer' (or something like that). Hard to believe he can produce 20 aces in a match with a serve like that unless he's playing against some beginners.

i never posted another thread how i hit my fh like federer

i replied to it, but that wasn't me lol

I have no idea what my ntrp is, somewhere between 5.0 and 5.5 im assuming

20 serves over the course of a 4-6 6-2 6-3 win means i served 6-7 aces a set, i had 1 game in the second set that i served 5 aces(was down 0-40)

 

[donquijote]

i never posted another thread how i hit my fh like federer

i replied to it, but that wasn't me lol

I have no idea what my ntrp is, somewhere between 5.0 and 5.5 im assuming

20 serves over the course of a 4-6 6-2 6-3 win means i served 6-7 aces a set, i had 1 game in the second set that i served 5 aces(was down 0-40)

Sorry I must have mixed you up with someone else.
You're assuming you're 5.0 or 5.5? good for you.
and you're counting your aces during a match and each game?
Sorry again for being harsh, this forum usually is

 

[Ihatetennis]

Sorry I must have mixed you up with someone else.
You're assuming you're 5.0 or 5.5? good for you.
and you're counting your aces during a match and each game?
Sorry again for being harsh, this forum usually is

I'm assuming I am between those because I don't lose to any computer rated 4.5 or 5.0s... I practice with many different adult hitting partners who are in 4.0-5.0 level. The 4.0 players I play simply push, so I use them as hitting partners when I need to work on aggressive tennis. This usually ends in the 1,2 or less. Not very often will I lose more than 3 games against them, unless I am only serve and volleying or only chip and charging.

My 4.5 hitting partners are for when I need to work on closing out games or not giving away any points. These are more of my usual hitting partners, but I almost never lose a set, and for the most part they win 25-33% of the games, 6-36-3 or 6-2 6-2 are normal scores.

I've played 3 5.0 players and won each time, once it was 2-6 6-2 6-1 another time 7-6 6-1 and last one 6-4 6-7 6-1


counting aces in a match lol, i didn't count them...but i can recall many many aces, and specifically at least 20.

My coach stopped counting at 15 because he left, but that was only halfway through the second set.

and who wouldnt remember hitting 5 aces in a game to hold? 0-40 and acing him 5 times lol, thats not exactly something you would forget fast

 

[Rubens]

You're so good, beating all those players.

 

[MotoboXer]

I'm not sure why anyone would need to jump into their serve when you can get as much and more power from just pushing forward and leaving a foot on the ground

it goes back to wood/steel raquets before the powerful raquets now..back then it was worth to get as high up as you could but now IMO its just not worth the energy-not only getting 6-8" up but then you gotta split-kick to get your ass back down in time and that can rush you...
Coaches will continue to teach it because "if its not broke dont fix it" thinking and a whole bunch of other reasons as we've seen here.
If one day you cant break the top 100 because your serve is getting crushed then you can change it and theres many qualified coaches out there to help.

 

[ZPTennis]

If you're a 5.5 do you have any other videos besides the serve? Such as points? Not saying you aren't. A 5.5 is the level of player I can't beat which is why it interests me. 5.5 players will win some open tournaments and on occasion even a 5.0 can if its not a strong draw. So if you've won any open tournaments with a decent draw size, please post more videos.

 

[shindemac]

When you first start practicing your serves using more legs you will not see an increase in power. This is bc the timing in your kinetic chain will be thrown off from what you are used to. Once you get in sync with practice your serve speed will increase. It might take a while to get down.

Lol, totally agree w this. I always heard big things about adding legs and it being a big power source for the serve. With my radar gun last year, I added in the legs and it gave me a measly 3mph. I was flummoxed to say the least. Anyways, this is a good point. Don't add in the legs if it's going to mess up your timing and make your serve worse. You won't get a big boost from your legs until you get the timing down again.

 

[shindemac]

I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts,... especially since my serve is probably the weakest part of my game.

Legs are a very important power source, but I think it's much harder to master the timing unless you're good at throwing either a football or baseball.

Here's my theory based on my very limited experience with throwing a baseball. When throwing a baseball or football, they both take a step to generate power. In football, it's not a lot because the QB has to be mobile and quick release. For pitchers, they take very big strides and probably generate the fastest arm speeds for that reason. IOW, they generate a lot of power from their legs becuase they push off as hard as they can. This translates into bigger strides for more power. This power generated in their legs gets converted into quicker rotation of their torso. IOW, more legs, more torso rotation.

Tennis is the same thing or very anagalous. Power is generated by the legs by pushing off the ground as hard as possible just like in a throw. But instead of taking a step forward, that power goes straight up. Think of it as a broad jump vs a high jump; The legs generate power in both. Since the legs are pushing off the ground straight up, the more power you can generate, the higher you will lift off the ground. You could call this a jump or not. But the point is not to jump in a serve, but to generate power in the legs, and like a throw, this power in the legs gets converted into a quicker rotation of the torso. IOW, more legs, more torso rotation.

LIke I said, most servers will have problems with timing, so the power gains from using the legs will be very minimal initially. For me, it was ~2% increase in power compared to the figures quoted of 20% of power comes from legs. When I practiced throwing, the same thing happend too. My legs didn't generate that much extra power on throws, but I had a few throws where I could tell I was generating significantly more power. It took months of practice to even get to this point, so I imagine it's much harder for tennis when you have to add in that pesky ball and timing issues crop up.

 

[Alien]

Honestly, even if legs certainly do add power, if you are making 20 aces per match, don't change anything there and dedicate yourself to other strokes, drills or strategy.

 

[Ihatetennis]

You're so good, beating all those players.

i mean anyone could if they had the ability to go practice and train as much as i, being 18 and in shape helps

If you're a 5.5 do you have any other videos besides the serve? Such as points? Not saying you aren't. A 5.5 is the level of player I can't beat which is why it interests me. 5.5 players will win some open tournaments and on occasion even a 5.0 can if its not a strong draw. So if you've won any open tournaments with a decent draw size, please post more videos.

sure thing, I won't be able to post another video for 3-4 days

I'm going to be taking a visit to a college and the weather is actually super rainy right now.

I don't play much men's opens. I played 1 and lost, but that was when I was 15.

im starting to play more men's open this next year to get me used to facing bigger stronger players.

But I've played a lot of singles and doubles matches against players going to schools like a&m, Air Force academy, and Abilene Christian university. That's about my level in doubles, in singles its a notch below that.

My singles is not as great as my doubles, in doubles I've beaten blue chips and 5 star players in classes above below and same as mine. But I've only beaten 3 blue chips ever in singles and they were all 2-4 years younger.

Doubles was mostly when I was in public highschool

Singles was some in practice and some in open tournsments, but junior open which is totally different.

I've played many junior open fournaments, in a recentish one I won 6 rounds to lose in the final to a 5 star, but in doubles at the same tournament my partner and I beat him and his partner in the finals.

 

[Ihatetennis]

Honestly, even if legs certainly do add power, if you are making 20 aces per match, don't change anything there and dedicate yourself to other strokes, drills or strategy.

Yeah, I practice serves for about 45 minutes a day. Groundstrokes and approach shots take up a lot of the rest which is between 2 and 4 hours depending on if I have work or how much school I have

 

[Ihatetennis]

Well, might watch this.

Or even read this.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...9974-5c975ae4810f_allComments.html?ctab=all_&

FWIW, I calculated the average size and weight of 7 out of the 8 women who had a serve recorded at 200kph (124mph) or more on Wikipedia: 180,85cm and 67,42kgs. Current top10 average: 176,4cm and 64kgs. Notice that Stosur never had a 200+kph serve ever recorded, but given the quality of her serve (especially kick), I don't think it's her main problem.

Having seen this video today I have a few things to practice to make my serve better

first thing is coil, i dont get enough trunktwist and coil

I will do the coiling action to get more power

i will get my hips more involved and use my legs as another loading mechanism

i dont think it is jumping that adds power, but instead is a result of unleashing from the coiled position.

will i leave the ground? possibly, but the main change in my serve will not be to add the jump but to add more coil and explosiveness

if my legs leave the ground so be it, but it will merely be a side effect of releasing the

what i have that is really going well is shoulder flexibility, i think that being able to serve consistently over 105 mph is due to my shoulder flexibility.