mbm0912
Hall of Fame
I think you're on to something here. You don't jump into a serve, just to be jumping.
New serve motion
- Thread starter Ihatetennis
- Start date
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
exactly! many pro women jump into their serve and barely reach 100
What i see now is that jumping is simply a side effect, an unneeded reaction that is a result of unleashing the coil
if you leave the ground does not matter, what matters is the hip and body rotation with the legs to load
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
nadal has a great load but very little use of his shoulder
Sam Groth has an absolutely incredible serve look at how far his shoulder goes back and how much he gets his hip into it
Here is nishikori who isnt the biggest server on the atp, imagine if he was able to do more than just get his serve in.
seeing the best servers of all time today in slow motion i can see now how important the coil is, but i also see how important that shoulder flexibility is.
and seeing how groth can hit the massive bombs using both, wow....
Sam Groth has an absolutely incredible serve look at how far his shoulder goes back and how much he gets his hip into it
Here is nishikori who isnt the biggest server on the atp, imagine if he was able to do more than just get his serve in.
seeing the best servers of all time today in slow motion i can see now how important the coil is, but i also see how important that shoulder flexibility is.
and seeing how groth can hit the massive bombs using both, wow....
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The books
Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis (2003) and
Technique Development in Tennis Stroke Production (2009)
have discussions of the motions that produce racket head speed on the serve.
They include
1) Leg Thrust
2) Hip Motions
and trunk motions:
3) Cartwheel or Shoulder-over-shoulder
4) Trunk Twist
5) Somersault
The researchers make points that these motions contribute to the serve. Some of these motions, including the leg thrust, cause external shoulder rotation important for stretching the internal shoulder rotation muscles.
What are your arguments for discounting that these researchers have included leg thrust? It could always be in 10 years that there will be some new technique with no leg thrust.....?
The effect of leg thrust can be clearly seen in videos, where, when the legs thrust up the forearm and racket can be seen rotating back by external shoulder rotating in sync with the leg thrust.
Watch the head rise up and the forearm rotate back.
Your head doesn't seem to raise up much or at least that is the way it appears from that one camera angle. The important thing is acceleration of the shoulder. The higher off the ground the feet go or the head rises implies that the upward acceleration was greater from leg thrust.
Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis (2003) and
Technique Development in Tennis Stroke Production (2009)
have discussions of the motions that produce racket head speed on the serve.
They include
1) Leg Thrust
2) Hip Motions
and trunk motions:
3) Cartwheel or Shoulder-over-shoulder
4) Trunk Twist
5) Somersault
The researchers make points that these motions contribute to the serve. Some of these motions, including the leg thrust, cause external shoulder rotation important for stretching the internal shoulder rotation muscles.
What are your arguments for discounting that these researchers have included leg thrust? It could always be in 10 years that there will be some new technique with no leg thrust.....?
The effect of leg thrust can be clearly seen in videos, where, when the legs thrust up the forearm and racket can be seen rotating back by external shoulder rotating in sync with the leg thrust.
Watch the head rise up and the forearm rotate back.
Your head doesn't seem to raise up much or at least that is the way it appears from that one camera angle. The important thing is acceleration of the shoulder. The higher off the ground the feet go or the head rises implies that the upward acceleration was greater from leg thrust.
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Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
look at the frames i get into trophy position and load(you can see my shoulders at a slight angle)
and you can compare my shoulder positioning to sam groths at the furthest point before acceleration into the ball
What i can do now is work more on the load, but jumping is not the key to the load, rotation is
edit, the video doesnt go straight to the point where i copied the url, but with some scrubbing you can see the frames im talking about
and you can compare my shoulder positioning to sam groths at the furthest point before acceleration into the ball
What i can do now is work more on the load, but jumping is not the key to the load, rotation is
edit, the video doesnt go straight to the point where i copied the url, but with some scrubbing you can see the frames im talking about
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Somewhere there must be a high speed film of Roscoe Tanner's great serve. ?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Tanner's toss was likely even lower than Groth's. Tanner employed only a modest amount of knee bend on his serve. He did not come off the ground very much at all -- probably less than 2 inches from what I recall.
Groth jumps quite a bit higher than Tanner and he hits at the peak of his toss or very close to the peak -- in some videos it appears that the ball might just be starting to drop (less than a cm or two?). By most accounts, Tannner hit the ball (toss) on its way up -- he intercepted the ball toss before it had a chance to reach its apex. I recall watching Tanner play quite a few times and this certainly appeared to be the case.
Many of us tried to emulate Roscoe's serve back in his heyday. By attempting to hit the ball on the rise, a very quick racket motion would result. Had some moderate success with hitting the ball harder/faster. However most if us could not serve into play consistently enough. I don't recall Roscoe having a lot of variety on his serve. Some sidespin at times but not a huge amount of topspin or kick IIRC.
mbm0912
Hall of Fame
It matches that clown racquet he plays with.
LakeSnake
Professional
I have a question about leg thrust.
It would seem to me that if you are talking about adding power to the serve, then leaving the ground would in a sense be a waste of energy. If you could maximally harness the leg thrust and put that into velocity, pushing a 150 lb or more mass into the air a few inches, in addition, would not seem very efficient.
It would seem to me that if you are talking about adding power to the serve, then leaving the ground would in a sense be a waste of energy. If you could maximally harness the leg thrust and put that into velocity, pushing a 150 lb or more mass into the air a few inches, in addition, would not seem very efficient.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Power and energy on the serve are currently not useful ways of thinking about the serve.
1) How many joules of energy are produced by the body for the serve?
2) How many joules of energy are in the kinetic energy of the ball for a 120 MPH serve?
3) Is the energy in the ball 10%, 1%, 0.1%, 0.01%, etc. of the joules that the body expended?
4) When is the peak power (watts) developed during the service motion? Leg thrust slowly lifting the heavy body or ISR rapidly accelerating the light arm and racket, etc.?
5) Is the power being developed at impact near zero watts? Just cruising..? (you need kinetic energy for impact but not power)
Are you drawing a blank? Can anyone say anything about the power in watts or the energy in joules for the tennis serve?
The kinetic chain concept seems to view the serve as a sequence of increasingly higher velocity body parts. Kinetic energies could be associated with each of these moving body parts. But the kinetic chain concept does not lead to a very clear picture when the potential energy stored in pre-stretched muscles is concerned. The kinetic chain concept seems to hide the part played by stretched muscles, for example, the lat and pec pre-stretching for internal shoulder rotation.
A simpler way to consider revealing quantities for the serve is first to ask - What is the special performance characteristic needed for a tennis serve?
1) Power?
2) Energy?
3) Unusually high racket head speed?
4) Other?
I vote for racket head speed for clarity and to quantify in meters per second or MPH. Kinetic energy is stored in all the moving body parts that can be seen in videos. But energy is also stored as potential energy in pre-stretched muscles, especially in the ISR muscles, the lat and pec and that can't be directly seen in videos. Significant racket head speed is developed from the potential energy stored in pre-stretched muscles.
Energy is often described in tennis as 'channeled through the shoulder for racket head speed', a loose catch-all tennis description without explanation. The above explains the stretching and energy storage that goes on at the shoulder.
There are other biomechanics going on other than ISR which is estimated to supply 40% of racket head speed at impact. By that estimate the other joint motions are supplying 60% of racket head speed.
There are several motions that produce pre-stretched muscles for the serve: Leg Thrust, Cartwheel, Trunk Turn, Somersault and others. These were spelled out at least 15 years ago by tennis researchers. The amount of each of these sources may vary but all of the highest level male servers have elected to jump to some degree. Are there any top 100 ATP servers that do not get off the ground?
1) How many joules of energy are produced by the body for the serve?
2) How many joules of energy are in the kinetic energy of the ball for a 120 MPH serve?
3) Is the energy in the ball 10%, 1%, 0.1%, 0.01%, etc. of the joules that the body expended?
4) When is the peak power (watts) developed during the service motion? Leg thrust slowly lifting the heavy body or ISR rapidly accelerating the light arm and racket, etc.?
5) Is the power being developed at impact near zero watts? Just cruising..? (you need kinetic energy for impact but not power)
Are you drawing a blank? Can anyone say anything about the power in watts or the energy in joules for the tennis serve?
The kinetic chain concept seems to view the serve as a sequence of increasingly higher velocity body parts. Kinetic energies could be associated with each of these moving body parts. But the kinetic chain concept does not lead to a very clear picture when the potential energy stored in pre-stretched muscles is concerned. The kinetic chain concept seems to hide the part played by stretched muscles, for example, the lat and pec pre-stretching for internal shoulder rotation.
A simpler way to consider revealing quantities for the serve is first to ask - What is the special performance characteristic needed for a tennis serve?
1) Power?
2) Energy?
3) Unusually high racket head speed?
4) Other?
I vote for racket head speed for clarity and to quantify in meters per second or MPH. Kinetic energy is stored in all the moving body parts that can be seen in videos. But energy is also stored as potential energy in pre-stretched muscles, especially in the ISR muscles, the lat and pec and that can't be directly seen in videos. Significant racket head speed is developed from the potential energy stored in pre-stretched muscles.
Energy is often described in tennis as 'channeled through the shoulder for racket head speed', a loose catch-all tennis description without explanation. The above explains the stretching and energy storage that goes on at the shoulder.
There are other biomechanics going on other than ISR which is estimated to supply 40% of racket head speed at impact. By that estimate the other joint motions are supplying 60% of racket head speed.
There are several motions that produce pre-stretched muscles for the serve: Leg Thrust, Cartwheel, Trunk Turn, Somersault and others. These were spelled out at least 15 years ago by tennis researchers. The amount of each of these sources may vary but all of the highest level male servers have elected to jump to some degree. Are there any top 100 ATP servers that do not get off the ground?
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Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
here we go, its been about a week trying this new motion
lower left back is sore and left hip is sore, timing is a bishhhhh to get
i need to find a way to keep the looseness in my upperbody and not be tight
will post video tonight
lower left back is sore and left hip is sore, timing is a bishhhhh to get
i need to find a way to keep the looseness in my upperbody and not be tight
will post video tonight
This picture of Groth is great. He has totally reversed his hip thrust and shoulder angle from trophy, yet he has maintained max racquet drop. In golf we call this holding lag. It is essential to hitting a big drive.
I am not a big believer in the total kinetic chain concept, but clearly he has used his big core muscles first and held off on firing his shoulder (ISR).
I would guess most low level servers would have their arm pretty extended at that position.
Doubt you can analyse Groth's service motion, then declare it the best ever for everyone else.
Groth is a 6'4" VIKING with unreal fast twitch arm and shoulder's. Not everyone else is the same.
Just like, you can't spend weeks analysing Dr. Ivo's serve, and declare it the one to copy.
However, anyone who can serve beans will have a 90 degree bent elbow at the racket drop.
Groth is a 6'4" VIKING with unreal fast twitch arm and shoulder's. Not everyone else is the same.
Just like, you can't spend weeks analysing Dr. Ivo's serve, and declare it the one to copy.
However, anyone who can serve beans will have a 90 degree bent elbow at the racket drop.
MotoboXer
Professional
that should be a red light right there-either try something else or back to your original serve.
New serve should click from the 2nd or 3rd attempt and not leave you so sore.
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
Mkay, updTe no video Tho
It's cold and my back tightened up after 2 sets
I don't get the same whip as my no jump serve
Timing is awful
I think I might abandon it as I can place 110 mph serves accurately up to a foot of the t line
Will see how it gies
MotoboXer
Professional
leg thrust/jump is a misconception with regards to the serve. you bend your knees to have enough time to twist the torso away from the net and then towards the net.
Feet leaving the ground is release of energy that was'nt released through the arms.
MotoboXer
Professional
if you really must have a serve that gets off the ground its best not to just jump into it (pardon the pun) but make a gradual change..
start with a serve that gets you a little bit of elevation like Pat Doughertys' Spring load serve or limbo serve. After a few weeks of adjustment
you can move onto something with even more lift.
start with a serve that gets you a little bit of elevation like Pat Doughertys' Spring load serve or limbo serve. After a few weeks of adjustment
you can move onto something with even more lift.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Don't serve when you have any pain. Especially don't experiment with the serve with pain. Don't experiment with strokes during matches without practice.
Your earlier serve video with minimal jump already looks as if it might be stressful for your back. ? I don't know how similar high level servers would look from that camera angle. A better camera angle to display the bend of your back would be from the side.
What I often see is that high level servers do not usually appear to bend their backs in an exaggerated manner. Some may? Stosur is very acrobatic.
Why did you develop your small jump serve? Have you had back pain before?
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
I went from pin point to this, my coach served like this and he was serving 130-140 easy. Pin point stresses my lower left back too muchDon't serve when you have any pain. Especially don't experiment with the serve with pain. Don't experiment with strokes during matches without practice.
Your earlier serve video with minimal jump already looks as if it might be stressful for your back. ? I don't know how similar high level servers would look from that camera angle. A better camera angle to display the bend of your back would be from the side.
What I often see is that high level servers do not usually appear to bend their backs in an exaggerated manner. Some may? Stosur is very acrobatic.
Why did you develop your small jump serve? Have you had back pain before?
This way didn't hurt at all, the one I was trying out WASNT pin point, but my awful timing is what causes the pain lol
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I have hardly looked at footwork on the serve.
By your pinpoint do you mean the 'old serve' from your OP?
Look at your original video, the footwork. Look at each frame between Frames #1 & 2 shown above, the footwork.
Here are some well displayed photos of footwork for a pin point stance. Look at the 2 frames where the feet are touching the ground and Lubicec's knee jumping. He contacts on his toes and it looks like two feet. Use "<" and ">" to see other views and a serve video. You can click on the image and then use the ctrl Key and "+" to enlage the size of the screen display of the feet.
Got pop up ad that did not look right. Removed.
Can you see the equivalent frames of two foot contact in your video? Maybe that video is not your pinpoint stance?
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Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
I have hardly looked at footwork on the serve.
By your pinpoint do you mean the 'old serve' from your OP?
Look at your original video, the footwork. Look at each frame between thFrame #1 & 2 above, the footwork.
Here are some well displayed photos of footwork for a pin point stance. Look at the 2 frames where the feet are touching the ground and Lubicec's knee jumping. He contacts on his toes and it looks like two feet. Use "<" and ">" to see other views and a serve video. You can click on the image and then use the ctrl Key and "+" to enlage the size of the screen display of the feet.
Got pop up ad that did not look right. Removed.
Can you see the equivalent frames of two foot contact in your video? Maybe that video is not your pinpoint stance?
there was a period in between those that was pin point.
but after a year i had too many injuries so i switched again
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
http://www.tacticaltennisblog.com/man-in-the-shadows-stan-wawrinka/
interesting analysis comparing minimal leg drive vs bigger leg drive
interesting analysis comparing minimal leg drive vs bigger leg drive
kramer woodie
Professional
ihatetennis
The ex-pro I help with his kids, we were talking 3-4 months ago about serving. I mentioned to him he would get more velocity on his serve use coiling. I
showed him how when I was young (back in the 60's) my back was almost facing the net and as my right rear foot came forward to what (I guess is called
pin point) hips and waist would un-coil and I would pivot on both feet. I used some right toe drag as a timing mechanism which allowed body to uncoil with racquet following. I had to be relaxed no tension in arm or grip. It was more about the speed (of un-coiling and the racquet being pulled up and out) not muscling the serve. While the ex-pro tried it and he said he felt like he got maybe up to 10 mph more velocity. Unfortunately, after about 2 weeks of improvement he pulled a left hamstring and has had to deal with lack of mobility every once in a while since. I can still demo that service motion, but I can no longer use it for play as it take too much
strength out of me and at my age keeping the timing right is hard. My point is "Yes" coiling will increase racquet head speed. I should mention that in the
1960's I was 6 foot 4 inches thus my height gave me a big window to hit a down angle serve.
Hope for your finding the best serve that works for you!
Aloha
Ihatetennis
Hall of Fame
Yeah, it's been a funny few weeks.
Still working on the motion but I'm getting very close to a final result
