New Serve

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
After more experimenting, I decided to try lowering my toss and speeding up the entire motion (going to an abbreviated take back). Further details in the video descriptions.


In the 3rd video, I even managed to get rid of the extra step with the left leg (toss location wasn't as far forward)!

This is the serve model I'm sticking with, since the slight TP, faster takeback, and quicker knee bend make it easier for me to hit with consistent power (despite several flat balls, I was making more than with the older motion). Imo it definitely looks more "violent".

In the process I discovered that it was a lack of front foot leg drive which was more of a problem than my back leg. And for some reason the faster in and out doesn't place any more strain on my knees.
 
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zill

Legend
After more experimenting, I decided to try lowering my toss and speeding up the entire motion (going to an abbreviated take back). Further details in the video descriptions.


In the 3rd video, I even managed to get rid of the extra step with the left leg (toss location wasn't as far forward)!

This is the serve model I'm sticking with, since the slight TP, faster takeback, and quicker knee bend make it easier for me to hit with consistent power (despite several flat balls, I was making more than with the older motion). Imo it definitely looks more "violent".

In the process I discovered that it was a lack of front foot leg drive which was more of a problem than my back leg. And for some reason the faster in and out doesn't place any more strain on my knees.

Reminds me of Gilles Muller's serve although your toss is lower.
 

ey039524

Hall of Fame
I tried to shorten my son's toss and service motion bc it's harder to read and forces you to accelerate to catch the ball as it drops. Also, less variation in the toss.

Your motion looks clean.

Someone did a video analysis on feliciano Lopez's quick service motion on YouTube. It's pretty insightful.
 

Funbun

Professional
That's a really great monster serve man.

You're probably already aware some coaches advocate keeping the back foot to the left of the front foot bringing it up for the pinpoint. Have you ever felt strange about it? It obviously works out for you here so I don't see any point in changing it.
I used to go for a similarly lower toss but I think it dropped my 1st serve percentages at later points of practice tiebreaks/matches because I'd feel tight and rushed when a bit more tired. I've since opted for a higher toss with the adjustment of just delaying my takeback more. Also felt like I could toss further out in front with a slightly higher toss and get my body going really forward for more power without changing the swing.

How have you felt using it during points/games?
 

Dakota C

Rookie
You have flat serve fundamentals down :) - the second video is notably worse (relatively speaking) than the other two - parts of the motion aren't happening at the correct times.
I would just continue to experiment here and there with tips or things to try as you come across them, and see if they happen to improve your feeling of confidence in the serve or the results in matches.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
You have flat serve fundamentals down :) - the second video is notably worse (relatively speaking) than the other two - parts of the motion aren't happening at the correct times.
I would just continue to experiment here and there with tips or things to try as you come across them, and see if they happen to improve your feeling of confidence in the serve or the results in matches.
Can you be more specific about what's wrong with the second one?
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
After more experimenting, I decided to try lowering my toss and speeding up the entire motion (going to an abbreviated take back). Further details in the video descriptions.

In the 3rd video, I even managed to get rid of the extra step with the left leg (toss location wasn't as far forward)!

This is the serve model I'm sticking with, since the slight TP, faster takeback, and quicker knee bend make it easier for me to hit with consistent power (despite several flat balls, I was making more than with the older motion). Imo it definitely looks more "violent".

In the process I discovered that it was a lack of front foot leg drive which was more of a problem than my back leg. And for some reason the faster in and out doesn't place any more strain on my knees.
I have no idea what the leg drive distribution is like for my serve. How did you decide lack of front foot drive?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
After more experimenting, I decided to try lowering my toss and speeding up the entire motion (going to an abbreviated take back). Further details in the video descriptions.


In the 3rd video, I even managed to get rid of the extra step with the left leg (toss location wasn't as far forward)!

This is the serve model I'm sticking with, since the slight TP, faster takeback, and quicker knee bend make it easier for me to hit with consistent power (despite several flat balls, I was making more than with the older motion). Imo it definitely looks more "violent".

In the process I discovered that it was a lack of front foot leg drive which was more of a problem than my back leg. And for some reason the faster in and out doesn't place any more strain on my knees.
Can you hit kick and topslice spin serves with this new rhythm? I recall channeling the fast Roscoe Tanner serve motion, with an ultra-low toss back in the day (40+ yrs ago). Supposedly, he hit the ball while it was still rising.

I found that I could hit noticeably faster serves in trying to emulate the RT serve. But they were monolithic, lacking in variety, since it was more difficult hit spin serves with this rhythm. Not good for me since talking advantage of my lefty spin was important for winning my service games.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
Can you hit kick and topslice spin serves with this new rhythm? I recall channeling the fast Roscoe Tanner serve motion, with an ultra-low toss back in the day (40+ yrs ago). Supposedly, he hit the ball while it was still rising.

I found that I could hit noticeably faster serves in trying to emulate the RT serve. But they were monolithic, lacking in variety, since it was more difficult hit spin serves with this rhythm. Not good for me since talking advantage of my lefty spin was important for winning my service games.
Great question. I basically have the same type of serve as op and struggled for a while to get a topspin serve stable enough for second serve before having to go through a surgery.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
After more experimenting, I decided to try lowering my toss and speeding up the entire motion (going to an abbreviated take back). Further details in the video descriptions.


In the 3rd video, I even managed to get rid of the extra step with the left leg (toss location wasn't as far forward)!

This is the serve model I'm sticking with, since the slight TP, faster takeback, and quicker knee bend make it easier for me to hit with consistent power (despite several flat balls, I was making more than with the older motion). Imo it definitely looks more "violent".

In the process I discovered that it was a lack of front foot leg drive which was more of a problem than my back leg. And for some reason the faster in and out doesn't place any more strain on my knees.
I posted a serve vid here years ago and one poster impressed me by pointing out that it looked like I had been injured in the past and the serve was rushed to make it less stressful on the knee. He totally nailed it.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
I posted a serve vid here years ago and one poster impressed me by pointing out that it looked like I had been injured in the past and the serve was rushed to make it less stressful on the knee. He totally nailed it.
I once posted a groundstroke video and systemicanomaly asked me whether my shoes were too large and he was right. I bought that pair on sale and had to go half size up.
 

eah123

Hall of Fame
I think the serve looks very good! The only thing I would caution from my own experience with using an abbreviated takeback is that it doesn't use the momentum that is built up from using a more full takeback, and can result in tennis elbow, due to greater stress placed on the forearm when building up rackethead speed from a static trophy position. So if you have any elbow pain at all after practicing your new serve, that may be reason to go back to a more full takeback that uses a continuous motion through contact.

Good luck with your game!
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
I once posted a groundstroke video and systemicanomaly asked me whether my shoes were too large and he was right. I bought that pair on sale and had to go half size up.
I would have been more impressed had you not been wearing a red clown nose in that video.
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
I have no idea what the leg drive distribution is like for my serve. How did you decide lack of front foot drive?
I wasn't - and sometimes still don't - push off the front leg very much. That happens mainly when the toss is too far forward and I chase it. Don't forget, I have to look after my knees, and at my age there isn't going to be any massive leg thrusting happening. From that perspective, serve 3 above is about as good as it gets. You are in a slightly different position I believe and can (at some stage) probably afford to focus on a well timed leg drive.
 
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Dakota C

Rookie
Thanks! Re the italics, don't leave a man hanging! Can you be more specific so I can try and fix it?
Huh, on first inspection I thought there were more obvious issues :laughing: , 2 actually doesn't seem that off - in real time is looks like the whole thing is slightly rushed - possibly having to slightly rush your swing due to knowing your tossing to the bare minimum contact height, leading to what looks like less explosive leg drive than the other two.

But, refer to the rest of my post besides me saying 2 was worse - you have the fundamentals down, you can trust yourself to feel whether things feel better or worse when you try changing things :)

If 2 didn't feel rushed at all for you, and you didn't feel less value from your legs, then I was just wrong :-D.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
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From ISR start to impact is the most informative part of the service technique. Your frame speed shows only 1 or 2 frames during that critical time.

Display your frame with impact and the frame before it. Match best to these frames.


1) Frame near the Big L Position (edge of racket toward ball). The elbow shadow movement indicates ISR. The wrist watch indicates ISR + pronation. Camera looking along ball trajectory.
E55390F03BF64185B26CFC88D477D73D.jpg


2)
1278801BDB244F2CAB10833EE46DD009.jpg


3)
973FE8C625DD4B818FD46F2DF80A6B28.jpg


4)
F2D029ADD6AE464B8EF2B3B7102B79A5.jpg


5) Forearm-to-racket shaft angle at impact. Arm tilt at impact for a slice serve.
69761682473B497C8400FE4A92EBEC7B.jpg


6) Arm tilt, the frame after impact.
CA05306C64064D679E425811CE1C4D30.jpg
 
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Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
From ISR start to impact is the most informative part of the service technique. Your frame speed shows only 1 or 2 frames during that critical time.

Display your frame with impact and the frame before it. Match best to these frames.


Frame near the Big L Position (edge of racket toward ball). The elbow shadow movement indicates ISR. The wrist watch indicates ISR + pronation. Camera looking along ball trajectory.
E55390F03BF64185B26CFC88D477D73D.jpg



1278801BDB244F2CAB10833EE46DD009.jpg



973FE8C625DD4B818FD46F2DF80A6B28.jpg


F2D029ADD6AE464B8EF2B3B7102B79A5.jpg


Forearm to racket shaft angle at impact. Arm tilt at impact for a slice serve.
69761682473B497C8400FE4A92EBEC7B.jpg


Arm tilt frame after impact.
CA05306C64064D679E425811CE1C4D30.jpg
Sorry Chas, this was just some experimenting and I wasn't too worried about camera angles, FPS or ISR. I forgot to change the camera back to 60fps on the last one after doing some other recording. But one day I will use a friends iPhone and make you happy!
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Huh, on first inspection I thought there were more obvious issues :laughing: , 2 actually doesn't seem that off - in real time is looks like the whole thing is slightly rushed - possibly having to slightly rush your swing due to knowing your tossing to the bare minimum contact height, leading to what looks like less explosive leg drive than the other two.

But, refer to the rest of my post besides me saying 2 was worse - you have the fundamentals down, you can trust yourself to feel whether things feel better or worse when you try changing things :)

If 2 didn't feel rushed at all for you, and you didn't feel less value from your legs, then I was just wrong :-D.
Yeah I get what you mean now (as a general observation). Often when people around here talk about "timing being off" it usually means there's a problem with the racquet drop/leg drive coordination, or something along those lines, hence my followup question.
 
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