Next Gen will take over but

El_Yotamo

Hall of Fame
I think their confidence will drop after the beating they've received from Djokovic (and Nadal sort of) such that they'll be easily taken over by the generation after them. There might be one or two years where they can win though. In any case we'll see maybe I'm wrong
 

Jonas78

Legend
Last Djokovic match im watching unless he plays Nadal. That Shapo match was the definition of pain. Watching that was absolutely brutal, especially since you knew that's exactly how it would play out. He literally took his soul.
I actually had to rewatch some if it, because youre always hearing its on Djokers racket. Here is what happened when Shapo lost serve on 5-4:
0-15 DF
0-30 easy UE
30-40 DF
40-A easy UE
Break: easy UE

Lol, Djokers racket.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
I think Shapo was definitely a bit bitter...however, he's right about having a few (read: quite a few) chances. At the end of the day though, you have to take them when you can, especially against Joker.

You would think there would be like a cabal or something by now...ABD club or something...

"Medvedev, I know we don't always get along, but open your eyes and realize...a Grand Slam win is worth more than a Grand Slam lost. (Thanks to Tshooter for introducing 'Steve the Hawk')
 

OldBalls

Semi-Pro
Novak must not retire at the peak of his results. He needs to continue playing until some next gen player(s) beats him. Then the narrative will be how good that gen is, being able to defeat novak. ;)
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Novak must not retire at the peak of his results. He needs to continue playing until some next gen player(s) beats him. Then the narrative will be how good that gen is, being able to defeat novak. ;)
is there any sign of Nole planning to retire in the upcoming weeks?
 
Last Djokovic match im watching unless he plays Nadal. That Shapo match was the definition of pain. Watching that was absolutely brutal, especially since you knew that's exactly how it would play out. He literally took his soul.
More like Shapo took his own soul… His shot selection woes on big pts. continue as well as hesitance to approach net on big pts. as well as his DF’s. Novak was supposed to lose that match, but Nextgen. did its thing.
 

Imperator

Hall of Fame
And SFs. Watching Shapo was painful, i think he would beat Djoker if he hadnt choked.
I mean it was a straight set victory, not a close 5 setter. I’m not sure he would have pulled it off even if he hadn’t choked, Djokovic would have probably played much better under pressure.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
I mean it was a straight set victory, not a close 5 setter. I’m not sure he would have pulled it off even if he hadn’t choked, Djokovic would have probably played much better under pressure.
I agree, but I think it might have gone 5 if Shapo had held his nerve. How many breaks did he have? And it's not like he has an awful serve. I don't care how slow the grass is, didn't we learn anything from that Isner-Mahut saga? Yes, you can still hold serve on grass.
 

Jonas78

Legend
I mean it was a straight set victory, not a close 5 setter. I’m not sure he would have pulled it off even if he hadn’t choked, Djokovic would have probably played much better under pressure.
Just my view. At 5-4 it was on Shapos racket, he hit 2 DFs and 3 easy UEs when serving for the set, so its clearly a choke. I know it sound weird, but i think Shapo actually was closer than Berry or even Tsits at RG. The three last sets vs Berry at W and Tsits at RG they were totally outplayed. The Shapo-match was close all the way, he just cant play important points. You dont beat Djoker by hitting 2 DFs when serving for the set, and by blowing 10/11 BPs
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Just my view. At 5-4 it was on Shapos racket, he hit 2 DFs and 3 easy UEs when serving for the set, so its clearly a choke. I know it sound weird, but i think Shapo actually was closer than Berry or even Tsits at RG. The three last sets vs Berry at W and Tsits at RG they were totally outplayed. The Shapo-match was close all the way, he just cant play important points. You dont beat Djoker by hitting 2 DFs when serving for the set, and by blowing 10/11 BPs
Closer than Berrettini for sure, not Tsitsipas though, IMO.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Just my view. At 5-4 it was on Shapos racket, he hit 2 DFs and 3 easy UEs when serving for the set, so its clearly a choke. I know it sound weird, but i think Shapo actually was closer than Berry or even Tsits at RG. The three last sets vs Berry at W and Tsits at RG they were totally outplayed. The Shapo-match was close all the way, he just cant play important points. You dont beat Djoker by hitting 2 DFs when serving for the set, and by blowing 10/11 BPs
And Djokovic choked away the 1st set in the final and won in 4. So even if Shapo had won the set, Djokovic would have just went into lockdown mode in the 2nd. Djokovic didn't play well for 2 full sets in the Shapo match which is why it was so close.
 

Jonas78

Legend
Closer than Berrettini for sure, not Tsitsipas though, IMO.
I think its debatable :). The three last sets Tsits didnt reach a single BP, and that was clay, the easiest surface to reach BPs. Tsits was never close to win the match, not at all. Shapo was serving for the first set, and had plenty of BPs in the two last.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
And Djokovic choked away the 1st set in the final and won in 4. So even if Shapo had won the set, Djokovic would have just went into lockdown mode in the 2nd. Djokovic didn't play well for 2 full sets in the Shapo match which is why it was so close.
Yes, but when a great chokes, you can't let your nerves get to you. You have to exploit it. Shapo has nothing to lose so he has to take what he can get...
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, but when a great chokes, you can't let your nerves get to you. You have to exploit it. Shapo has nothing to lose so he has to take what he can get...
Yea but it's easier said than done. Djokovic makes this stuff look easy which fools everybody into thinking everyone should be able to do it even on their 1st try...lol. Djokovic himself choked big matches away in his prime.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
I think its debatable :). The three last sets Tsits didnt reach a single BP, and that was clay, the easiest surface to reach BPs. Tsits was never close to win the match, not at all. Shapo was serving for the first set, and had plent of BPs in the two last.
Yes, I think he disappeared. Wasn't sure if it was fatigue, lack of 5-setters, or what.

But I think if Shapo had gotten one of those sets he could have relaxed more. You could tell he was pressing, and I think that's why he was so upset at the end. "I just want one set, for crying out loud!" He pressed because he was so close and then it slipped (or was ripped) out of his fingers.
 

Jonas78

Legend
And Djokovic choked away the 1st set in the final and won in 4. So even if Shapo had won the set, Djokovic would have just went into lockdown mode in the 2nd. Djokovic didn't play well for 2 full sets in the Shapo match which is why it was so close.
Maybe, maybe not. Imo Shapo is a way better player than Berry. Djokovic isnt unbeatable, which Nadal showed last year with straights and a bagel, and Fed had match points in 2019 but blew it away in his usual style. Now the NextGen generally suc1s, and im pretty sure Djoko will win USO, but imo Shapo would have a very good chance of winning if he held serve and stayed calm. You saw it on Shapos reaction when it was over too, those tears and that expression, he knew he could have taken him down that night. But he didnt, and Djoko is a Beast on those important points, unfortunately ;)
 
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Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Yea but it's easier said than done. Djokovic makes this stuff look easy which fools everybody into thinking everyone should be able to do it even on their 1st try...lol. Djokovic himself choked big matches away in his prime.
Sure. I think Nole is the king of rope-a-dope and you can never count him out. That said, he wasn't playing his best and Shapo was on fire. All Shapo needed to do was hold his nerve, because at least in the early of the match, Nole wasn't beating him on mechanics.

Compare this match with the final. It was interesting to me that Berrettini even got a set on Nole here. Certainly, Berrettini is a big server, but Nole is the best returner and he's not afraid of that shot. So how did Berrettini sneak one one out? Sheer will. Which isn't saying that Nole didn't play poorly to let it slip away, just that even when you play a bad Nole you have to reach out and take the match at the end of the day.

Nole didn't play better in the first set than he did in the Shapo match. And he did raise his game as the final progressed, but in pure match up terms Berrettini has to less to hurt Nole with than Shapo does.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Maybe, maybe not. Imo Shapo is a way better player than Berry. Djokovic isnt unbeatable, which Nadal showed last year with straights and a bagel, and Fed had match points in 2019 but blew it away in his usual style. Now the NextGen generally suc1s, and im pretty sure Djoko will win USO, but imo Shapo would have a very good chance of winning if he held serve and stayed calm.
On grass, I think Berr is ahead. He hung with a well playing Djokovic in the final, blasting forehands at will and serving bombs. Shapo didn't play a version playing that well as Djokovic had stomach issues and felt unwell. To me, Berr came the closest to defeating Djokovic at Wimbledon. Overall though, I think Shapo will be better across all surfaces. No one is unbeatable but a match where Djokovic didn't even show up (RG 2020) isn't proof of that. He came back 8 months later and sent Nadal packing from his own house which shows how hard he is to beat when he's playing well, which he has been doing in Slams this year. No one was beating Djokovic at Wimbledon, especially with a straightforward draw. The best chance to defeat him was RG (where he passed the test with flying colors) and the USO where he notoriously doesn't play his best and will be nervous going for the CYGS.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
On grass, I think Berr is ahead. He hung with a well playing Djokovic in the final, blasting forehands at will and serving bombs. Shapo didn't play a version playing that well as Djokovic had stomach issues and felt unwell. To me, Berr came the closest to defeating Djokovic at Wimbledon. Overall though, I think Shapo will be better across all surfaces. No one is unbeatable but a match where Djokovic didn't even show up (RG 2020) isn't proof of that. He came back 8 months later and sent Nadal packing from his own house which shows how hard he is to beat when he's playing well, which he has been doing in Slams this year. No one was beating Djokovic at Wimbledon, especially with a straightforward draw. The best chance to defeat him was RG (where he passed the test with flying colors) and the USO where he notoriously doesn't play his best and will be nervous going for the CYGS.
Funny, I'd say Berrettini is ahead on clay actually. He had more chances against Nole at RG than he did at Wimby, and I think Nole played better in Paris.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Sure. I think Nole is the king of rope-a-dope and you can never count him out. That said, he wasn't playing his best and Shapo was on fire. All Shapo needed to do was hold his nerve, because at least in the early of the match, Nole wasn't beating him on mechanics.

Compare this match with the final. It was interesting to me that Berrettini even got a set on Nole here. Certainly, Berrettini is a big server, but Nole is the best returner and he's not afraid of that shot. So how did Berrettini sneak one one out? Sheer will. Which isn't saying that Nole didn't play poorly to let it slip away, just that even when you play a bad Nole you have to reach out and take the match at the end of the day.

Nole didn't play better in the first set than he did in the Shapo match. And he did raise his game as the final progressed, but in pure match up terms Berrettini has to less to hurt Nole with than Shapo does.
You have to see the stats from the final and then look at the ones from the SF. Djokovic played terrible for most of the match in the SF. Djokovic didn't play his best in the 1st set of the final but definitely better than the SF. Berr took that 1st set because he took his chances in the 5-3 service game where Djokovic kept missing 1st serves and he attacked his 2nd serve. Then served big and hit huge forehands in the tiebreak over a pretty nervous Djokovic. I have to disagree that Berr has less to hurt Djokovic with. His forehand and serve are both massive. He was averaging over 90 mph on that forehand in return games against Djokovic, which is how he was breaking him.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Funny, I'd say Berrettini is ahead on clay actually. He had more chances against Nole at RG than he did at Wimby, and I think Nole played better in Paris.
The matches were pretty similar to me, but the Berr surge happened at different points in the match. I think Berr is ahead of Shapo on clay and grass, although I expect Shapo to improve on grass.
 

Jonas78

Legend
On grass, I think Berr is ahead. He hung with a well playing Djokovic in the final, blasting forehands at will and serving bombs. Shapo didn't play a version playing that well as Djokovic had stomach issues and felt unwell. To me, Berr came the closest to defeating Djokovic at Wimbledon. Overall though, I think Shapo will be better across all surfaces. No one is unbeatable but a match where Djokovic didn't even show up (RG 2020) isn't proof of that. He came back 8 months later and sent Nadal packing from his own house which shows how hard he is to beat when he's playing well, which he has been doing in Slams this year. No one was beating Djokovic at Wimbledon, especially with a straightforward draw. The best chance to defeat him was RG (where he passed the test with flying colors) and the USO where he notoriously doesn't play his best and will be nervous going for the CYGS.
Well thats how it is with different camps. The brigade will claim Nadal didnt play his best this year and Novaks fans will claim he didnt play his best last year :). But either way, as you say, even Novak doesnt show up every match (no player does), and the Shapo match i think he was beatable. By watching Shapos reaction after the match i think he was thinking the same. But it ended in straights, you dont beat Djoker by hitting DFs when it matter the most, and you have to convert more than 1/11 BPs.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
You have to see the stats from the final and then look at the ones from the SF. Djokovic played terrible for most of the match in the SF. Djokovic didn't play his best in the 1st set of the final but definitely better than the SF. Berr took that 1st set because he took his chances in the 5-3 service game where Djokovic kept missing 1st serves and he attacked his 2nd serve. Then served big and hit huge forehands in the tiebreak over a pretty nervous Djokovic. I have to disagree that Berr has less to hurt Djokovic with. His forehand and serve are both massive. He was averaging over 90 mph on that forehand in return games against Djokovic, which is how he was breaking him.
Yes, I agree that Nole played worse in the SF, so I think Shapo should have taken at least a set. When it falls to you to take advantage of poor play, you have to do it. Berrettini did, Shapovalov did not.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Well thats how it is with different camps. The brigade will claim Nadal didnt play his best this year and Novaks fans will claim he didnt play his best last year :). But either way, as you say, even Novak doesnt show up every match (no player does), and the Shapo match i think he was beatable. By watching Shapos reaction after the match i think he was thinking the same. But it ended in straights, you dont beat Djoker by hitting DFs when it matter the most, and you have to convert more than 1/11 BPs.
Oh come man. You can't equate Djokovic's level from RG 2020 F with Nadal's from 2021 RG SF. Lol. Nadal was blowing Djokovic off the court in the beginning of that match, and had chances to go up 2 sets to one in the 3rd. Djokovic in 2020 served like 35% in the 1st set and was so erratic the whole match.

I just think he never felt in danger against Shapo so he played just well enough to hold him off. Playing like that against Berr though would have gotten him in trouble though. Shapo played well but he wasn't ready to take down Djokovic at Wimbledon. Maybe he will be in the future though.
 

Jonas78

Legend
Oh come man. You can't equate Djokovic's level from RG 2020 F with Nadal's from 2021 RG SF. Lol. Nadal was blowing Djokovic off the court in the beginning of that match, and had chances to go up 2 sets to love in the 3rd. Djokovic in 2020 served like 35% in the 1st set and was so erratic the whole match.

I just think he never felt in danger against Shapo so he played just well enough to hold him off. Playing like that against Berr though would have gotten him trouble though. Shapo played well but he wasn't ready to take down Djokovic in Wimbledon. Maybe he will be in the future though.
Im not a fan of either so ill leave that discussion to Noles and Rafas fans ;) :) . Let me leave it with that i dont think Djoko played his best last year and i dont think Rafa played his best this year.

Yeah i hope someone new steps up soon. It would be quite the anticlimax if the following 10-15 years after Big3, we have to watch players we know for sure are far inferior to Big3.

Let Nole have #21 and CYGS but then someone NEEDS to step up:). I need someone new to cheer for after Roger!
 
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