Nextgen lack ..

nachiket nolefam said:
He has 2 less masters so ok. But more surface versatility already. Made semis of ATP finals in first asking. 3 different slam semis already.
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Alcaraz went 1-3 against 16 years older Djokovic, losing on clay, outdoor hard, and indoor hard. 5-9 in sets.

Nadal went 4-2 against Federer in his peak year, all 4 wins coming in finals including one on outdoor hard. 12-10 in sets.
 
mcs1970 said:
OP starts a post bemoaning lack of toughness by the young gen. Yet blames Sinner for not tanking.
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I do. It's about playing not hard but smart. You should know when to give your best.

Just a couple of days ago, India romped to the final decimating everyone in cricket. They failed when it mattered - final.

Sinner was stupid.
 
I miss the times when the future ATGs like Federer and Djokovic won everything at the age of 20 - oh wait, that didn’t happen either.
 
jm1980 said:
Or Federer at 20, for that matter.
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SonnyT said:
He's only 20. What killer instinct did Djokovic have at 20?
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"Some" develop later. But don't tell me the entire Gen, Nextgen, NextNextgen.. develop later or never. Want a list?

Dimitrov
Shapovalov
Aliassime
Zverev
Tsitsipas
Medvedev
Thiem
Tiafoe
Raonic
Ruud
Hurkacz

And now we have this generation to repeat history of the above.

Alcaraz
Sinner
Shelton
Korda

Out of these only one has shown he can win. But he pooped at the FO. He lost 8 consecutive tournaments after being handed no 1. He lost straights at tour finals to a 36 year old. He could not even beat a dead 36 year old being 1-0 up.

What hope do we have?

Becker, Borg, Wilander, Nadal etc. managed fine. Why can't they? They had killer instincts.

It has been a decade of failed gens.
 
tex123 said:
See above
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Many previous generations had the advantage of winning early when older players were left left high and dry away from title-winning stages due to technology change between the 70s-early 2000s - mostly grass tournaments to hard/carpet surfaces, wood to metal to graphite racquets, 65sq inch heads to 85-90 to 97-100 sq inch heads, gut to poly strings, fast courts to slow courts/heavy balls etc. When technology was stable before the 70s, ATG champions won into their late thirties. When technology has been stable since the 2010s, ATG champions win into their late thirties. If you have a long-term view of tennis history, you would know this.

And now modern athletes have the advantage of modern training methods/science and luxury travel on private jobs with big support entourages extending their careers in all sports for top players. In addition, the young tennis players of today are dealing with the best player who has ever played the game by far who is also a fanatic about diet, training, stretching etc. - tough challenge. My ‘eye test’ tells me that Djokovic is still winning because he is playing at an incredibly high level keeping points short rather than because the entire world forgot how to play tennis well. In pro tennis these days, >50% of points end within 3 shots (by serve+1) and >70% by four shots (by return+1) according to ATP stats even on clay. So it is not hard to believe that a fitness fanatic who is a GOAT returner and has become an ATG precision server can hang with the best in his mid-thirties as he has a GOAT mindset when there has been no technology changes since he came on tour especially when he can travel with 5-7 team members on a private jet and stay with them in luxury while his younger up-and-coming teen competitors are likely traveling on economy commercial flights, staying in cheap motels and barely affording a traveling coach.
 
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socallefty said:
Many previous generations had the advantage of winning early when older players were left left high and dry away from title-winning stages due to technology change between the 70s-early 2000s - mostly grass tournaments to hard/carpet surfaces, wood to metal to graphite racquets, 65sq inch heads to 85-90 to 97-100 sq inch heads, gut to poly strings, fast courts to slow courts/heavy balls etc. When technology was stable before the 70s, ATG champions won into their late thirties. When technology has been stable since the 2010s, ATG champions win into their late thirties. If you have a long-term view of tennis history, you would know this.

And now modern athletes have the advantage of modern training methods/science and luxury travel on private jobs with big support entourages extending their careers in all sports for top players. In addition, the young tennis players of today are dealing with the best player who has ever played the game by far who is also a fanatic about diet, training, stretching etc. - tough challenge. My ‘eye test’ tells me that Djokovic is still winning because he is playing at an incredibly high level keeping points short rather than because the entire world forgot how to play tennis well. In pro tennis these days, >50% of points end within 3 shots (by serve+1) and >70% by four shots (by return+1) according to ATP stats even on clay. So it is not hard to believe that a fitness fanatic who is a GOAT returner and has become an ATG precision server can hang with the best in his mid-thirties as he has a GOAT mindset when there has been no technology changes since he came on tour especially when he can travel with 5-7 team members on a private jet and stay with them in luxury while his younger up-and-coming teen competitors are likely traveling on economy commercial flights, staying in cheap motels and barely affording a traveling coach.
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My eye test tells me Djokovic is playing at a good level consistently throughout the match but the next gens are playing good level in patches i.e. not good enough to win matches consistently.

The next gens are also lacking tools in their bag. Alcaraz is the only one that looks like a complete player but he has big mental issues to hang with Djokovic. Sinner is a one dimensional potato. Rune is developing into a versatile player under Becker but he has a long way to go.
 
Aabye5 said:
The ability to adjust within the match.
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Yeah. That as well. It is related to how versatile they are.

Take Sinner for example: Other than bashing balls from the baseline relentlessly, he does not have a good slice or volley or change of pace or drop shots. There's a limited no of things he can do. He's good at bashing balls.

Rune is learning all of those under Becker. I'm excited for him.

Alcaraz has all of those skills but his head is not in the right place. He's a bag of nerves. He goes for too much too soon.
 
tex123 said:
Yeah. That as well. It is related to how versatile they are.

Take Sinner for example: Other than bashing balls from the baseline relentlessly, he does not have a good slice or volley or change of pace or drop shots. There's a limited no of things he can do. He's good at bashing balls.

Rune is learning all of those under Becker. I'm excited for him.

Alcaraz has all of those skills but his head is not in the right place. He's a bag of nerves. He goes for too much too soon.
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Sinner has improved a lot in terms of his volley and dropshot thanks to Cahill. Have you watched him recently (and I don't mean his one match against Novak in the final of the YEC)? Not to mention his serve. He is becoming much more than a ball-basher. His ability to learn is why I rate him so highly.

Curious to see how Rune will fare with Becker. Rune seems a bit more headstrong than Sinner, from what I have seen of his interactions with his mother and coach. That could be a good thing or a bad thing when working with Becker.

Alcaraz is doing great. The challenge for him is two-fold -- 1) how does he fare without JCF in his ear and 2) how does he respond to having a target on his back? At the USO this year, Med knew he was going to have to go through Alcaraz to reach the final and played a very clever match to reach the final...but he had nothing left by the time he got there. That shows you how esteemed Carlitos is on Tour already.
 
Aabye5 said:
Sinner has improved a lot in terms of his volley and dropshot thanks to Cahill. Have you watched him recently (and I don't mean his one match against Novak in the final of the YEC)? Not to mention his serve. He is becoming much more than a ball-basher. His ability to learn is why I rate him so highly.

Curious to see how Rune will fare with Becker. Rune seems a bit more headstrong than Sinner, from what I have seen of his interactions with his mother and coach. That could be a good thing or a bad thing when working with Becker.

Alcaraz is doing great. The challenge for him is two-fold -- 1) how does he fare without JCF in his ear and 2) how does he respond to having a target on his back? At the USO this year, Med knew he was going to have to go through Alcaraz to reach the final and played a very clever match to reach the final...but he had nothing left by the time he got there. That shows you how esteemed Carlitos is on Tour already.
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I'm sorry. I don't see it in Sinner. He's just not a natural.

Rune is. The way he was mixing up the pace at ATP Finals with slices, topspins, flats, volleys etc. was great to see. And it was coming naturally to him with coaching from Becker of course. But, he's realising that he can do a lot of things on court.

I would not use the word "great" for Alcaraz. He did great in a small window this year. That's all. If there was anyone that has fallen from great heights, it was Alcaraz. It is embarrassing to be win Wimbledon and no 1 player to be gifted no 1 ranking by Djokovic and losing 8 consecutive tournaments including two beatdowns from Djokovic - the man he conquered at W. He lost to even journeymen after W. He could not even beat a dead Djokovic being 1-0 up.
 
tex123 said:
I'm sorry. I don't see it in Sinner. He's just not a natural.

Rune is. The way he was mixing up the pace at ATP Finals with slices, topspins, flats, volleys etc. was great to see. And it was coming naturally to him with coaching from Becker of course. But, he's realising that he can do a lot of things on court.

I would not use the word "great" for Alcaraz. He did great in a small window this year. That's all. If there was anyone that has fallen from great heights, it was Alcaraz. It is embarrassing to be win Wimbledon and no 1 player to be gifted no 1 ranking by Djokovic and losing 8 consecutive tournaments including two beatdowns from Djokovic - the man he conquered at W. He lost to even journeymen after W. He could not even beat a dead Djokovic being 1-0 up.
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Jannik is not a natural at net, that's true. But it's another skill under his belt. And he uses his skills to the best of his abilities. (He's like the opposite of the player in my avatar)

Rune is interesting. He is already very crafty, but I am most curious to see how Becker helps him with his serve. Would you call him fast?

What Carlitos has already accomplished was pretty epic given his age. We can talk about the strength of his competition or lack there of, but he did reach the top and he did win two majors. But I have questioned from the beginning whether it was sustainable. Next year will be noteworthy.
 
Aabye5 said:
Jannik is not a natural at net, that's true. But it's another skill under his belt. And he uses his skills to the best of his abilities. (He's like the opposite of the player in my avatar)

Rune is interesting. He is already very crafty, but I am most curious to see how Becker helps him with his serve. Would you call him fast?

What Carlitos has already accomplished was pretty epic given his age. We can talk about the strength of his competition or lack there of, but he did reach the top and he did win two majors. But I have questioned from the beginning whether it was sustainable. Next year will be noteworthy.
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I'm pretty sure Rune's serve will become a force under Becker. he's in good hands.

However, I don't see Carlitos winning anything in 2024. I hope I'm wrong. His best bet is Wimbledon. Djokovic will bag AO. Nadal is back for FO - so it is either Nadal or Djokovic. He performed really well in Queens and W in 2023. So, you'll have to make him a slight favourite there but you can never count Djokovic out who will be out for revenge. US Open and hard courts is not for him - I'm convinced. His US open win was not convincing at all. His game does not shine on hard courts.
 
tex123 said:
Yeah. That as well. It is related to how versatile they are.

Take Sinner for example: Other than bashing balls from the baseline relentlessly, he does not have a good slice or volley or change of pace or drop shots. There's a limited no of things he can do. He's good at bashing balls.

Rune is learning all of those under Becker. I'm excited for him.

Alcaraz has all of those skills but his head is not in the right place. He's a bag of nerves. He goes for too much too soon.
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That’s different from mental toughness or bemoaning him going all out against Rune. Everyone knew what you were referring to.
 
Strategies other than good serving and heavy hitting from 2 metres behind the baseline.

Seriously: Alcaraz is the only player under 30 who is complete. I think Rune, Shelton, Fritz and Korda have more on offer and I hope they will have success.

Unbelievably boring to watch 20+ central balls hit back and forth...
 
Aabye5 said:
Sinner has improved a lot in terms of his volley and dropshot thanks to Cahill. Have you watched him recently (and I don't mean his one match against Novak in the final of the YEC)?
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The problem with this is that he is trying to incorporate these ingredients to his game at >20 yo. It does not happen like that. Developing that kind of touch strokes comes from pure tactical instinct in early sports skills development. I am not saying that he won't master them, but that he will not incorporate them as a resource in the game that comes naturally. The selection of these shots, their effectiveness and disguise will never be at the level of someone that used them as a recurrent resource in their arsenal.

The exception is the serve, as it is where one is just alone with himself.
 
mcs1970 said:
You got the point though. Your original post of criticizing youngsters for a lack of toughness while simultaneously blaming Sinner for not tanking, didn’t add up at all.
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I get your point. They're not the same thing. Toughness when it matters. That match was a dead rubber. Everyone would've understood if he had lost to Rune and won the title. People remember winners. What did he get out of it? He lost in straights to Djokovic as he was spent in earlier rounds. A bit of tactical head is needed to play smarter.

If he had won the title, it would've given him a huge confidence boost ending the year like that.
 
tex123 said:
I get your point. They're not the same thing. Toughness when it matters. That match was a dead rubber. Everyone would've understood if he had lost to Rune and won the title. People remember winners. What did he get out of it? He lost in straights to Djokovic as he was spent in earlier rounds. A bit of tactical head is needed to play smarter.

If he had won the title, it would've given him a huge confidence boost ending the year like that.
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Again you are discussing something else than your original points which didn’t add up at all. Stay on point. It was a poor post. Most likely borne out of frustration that Novak won again. .
 
ppma said:
The problem with this is that he is trying to incorporate these ingredients to his game at >20 yo. It does not happen like that. Developing that kind of touch strokes comes from pure tactical instinct in early sports skills development. I am not saying that he won't master them, but that he will not incorporate them as a resource in the game that comes naturally. The selection of these shots, their effectiveness and disguise will never be at the level of someone that used them as a recurrent resource in their arsenal.

The exception is the serve, as it is where one is just alone with himself.
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Yes, it does. Did you watch the big 3 era? Did you watch tennis before the big 3 era? Tennis is all about EVOLUTION. I'm not saying he will become JMac, but what Jannik didn't start with he is already developing, and what he started with got him pretty damn far.
 
tex123 said:
I get your point. They're not the same thing. Toughness when it matters. That match was a dead rubber. Everyone would've understood if he had lost to Rune and won the title. People remember winners. What did he get out of it? He lost in straights to Djokovic as he was spent in earlier rounds. A bit of tactical head is needed to play smarter.

If he had won the title, it would've given him a huge confidence boost ending the year like that.
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People are making too much out of one stinking match. As if they didn't play two.
 
mcs1970 said:
Again you are discussing something else than your original points which didn’t add up at all. Stay on point. It was a poor post. Most likely borne out of frustration that Novak won again. .
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True to his fanbase, it had to do something with Novak. You guys just can't discuss anything without bringing him into the discussion.

Post was clear. It's not my problem if you did not understand it or deliberately choose to not understand it. I do not need a rating on my post. Thank you very much.
 
tex123 said:
True to his fanbase, it had to do something with Novak. You guys just can't discuss anything without bringing him into the discussion.

Post was clear. It's not my problem if you did not understand it or deliberately choose to not understand it. I do not need a rating on my post. Thank you very much.
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My post history is open here blasting Novak for being a clown during Covid when he hosted a tournament without care. I don’t idolize any athlete to blind me to their faults. When it comes to tennis, my personal fav has and will always be Sampras.

Coming back to your post, your agenda was clear when you blamed the young ones for a lack of mental toughnes and then ironically blamed Sinner for not tanking.
 
tex123 said:
I get your point. They're not the same thing. Toughness when it matters. That match was a dead rubber. Everyone would've understood if he had lost to Rune and won the title. People remember winners. What did he get out of it? He lost in straights to Djokovic as he was spent in earlier rounds. A bit of tactical head is needed to play smarter.

If he had won the title, it would've given him a huge confidence boost ending the year like that.
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$400,000 and 200 more ranking points.
 
tex123 said:
I'm pretty sure Rune's serve will become a force under Becker. he's in good hands.

However, I don't see Carlitos winning anything in 2024. I hope I'm wrong. His best bet is Wimbledon. Djokovic will bag AO. Nadal is back for FO - so it is either Nadal or Djokovic. He performed really well in Queens and W in 2023. So, you'll have to make him a slight favourite there but you can never count Djokovic out who will be out for revenge. US Open and hard courts is not for him - I'm convinced. His US open win was not convincing at all. His game does not shine on hard courts.
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Hold on a minute? I thought you weren’t expecting much from Nadal. In a previous post you said he’s coming back to retire and have little expectations. In this post you now saying he can win the french open.

Which is why I said if Rafa is fit then you should have faith in him beating these weak youngsters you keep moaning about. You either have faith in Rafa beating the weaker field or you don’t. You can’t have it both ways.
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1 said:
Hold on a minute? I thought you weren’t expecting much from Nadal. In a previous post you said he’s coming back to retire and have little expectations. In this post you now saying he can win the french open.

Which is why I said if Rafa is fit then you should have faith in him beating these weak youngsters you keep moaning about. You either have faith in Rafa beating the weaker field or you don’t. You can’t have it both ways.
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He's won it how many times? He can surprise anyone. Nadal will be unseeded. He can meet anyone in the first round and he can beat anyone at the French. He can meet Carlos in the first round or Djokovic or anyone. It is as unpredictable as that.

Being fit is one thing. Having match practice under your belt is another. He has had none for a year and a half. But Rafa is Rafa. He fights to the end. He can win it too. We want him to win but we don't have any expectations. We hope he makes it interesting next year.

That does not equate it to your weakgen point. That has been proven at the Aus Open. You want it proven again and again until it fails. I'm sorry but that is just a stupid stupid argument.
 
NoleFam said:
$400,000 and 200 more ranking points.
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Is it better than:

1. Holding the ATP trophy
&
2. Holding the last win over Djokovic
&
3. Ending the season on a high.
&
4. Taking the confidence to next year

Instead, he is demoralised, tired, knows he got his a*se kicked bad, afraid to face Djokovic again and ended the season on a low.
 
tex123 said:
He's won it how many times? He can surprise anyone. Nadal will be unseeded. He can meet anyone in the first round and he can beat anyone at the French. He can meet Carlos in the first round or Djokovic or anyone. It is as unpredictable as that.

Being fit is one thing. Having match practice under your belt is another. He has had none for a year and a half. But Rafa is Rafa. He fights to the end. He can win it too. We want him to win but we don't have any expectations. We hope he makes it interesting next year.

That does not equate it to your weakgen point. That has been proven at the Aus Open. You want it proven again and again until it fails. I'm sorry but that is just a stupid stupid argument.
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Fair enough. Good post!
 
MichaelNadal said:
Bring back real manliness 8-B

the-vaudevillains-entrance.gif

NFogQhC.gif
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Stefanos-Tsitsipas-feat.jpg
 
tex123 said:
Is it better than:

1. Holding the ATP trophy
&
2. Holding the last win over Djokovic
&
3. Ending the season on a high.
&
4. Taking the confidence to next year

Instead, he is demoralised, tired, knows he got his a*se kicked bad, afraid to face Djokovic again and ended the season on a low.
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Or he could have down 0-3 in the Rune head to head, who will be his rival for years after Djokovic is gone, and gave him more confidence against him in the future. How is that good for him? To be the best you have to beat the best so why would be you advocating for him to tank? Running away from a battle is worse than taking a beating, and Alcaraz took a worse one than him so he can take something positive away from it. Lol.
 
mcs1970 said:
My post history is open here blasting Novak for being a clown during Covid when he hosted a tournament without care. I don’t idolize any athlete to blind me to their faults. When it comes to tennis, my personal fav has and will always be Sampras.

Coming back to your post, your agenda was clear when you blamed the young ones for a lack of mental toughnes and then ironically blamed Sinner for not tanking.
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I do NOT care about who you are and your post history. The point is clear. They do not have killer instincts. That does not mean kill yourself to kill the other person when the match was a dead rubber. The trophy was his "kill". Not Rune. Not Djokovic.

Are you thick or deliberately being obtuse? Can I interest you in a dictionary so that you can look up killer instinct?
 
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NoleFam said:
Or he could have down 0-3 in the Rune head to head, who will be his rival for years after Djokovic is gone, and gave him more confidence against him in the future. How is that good for him? To be the best you have to beat the best so why would be you advocating for him to tank? Running away from a battle is worse than taking a beating, and Alcaraz took a worse one than him so he can take something positive away from it. Lol.
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Dude. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Every player on tour wants to beat Djokovic. Not Rune.
He already beat him. Eliminate and win the trophy.
 
tex123 said:
Dude. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Every player on tour wants to beat Djokovic. Not Rune.
He already beat him. Eliminate and win the trophy.
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I'm pretty sure beating Rune, winning that extra 400K, and keeping his win streak going was more important than eliminating Djokovic. He'll have plenty of chances to win the ATP Finals since he's only 22 and definitely is going to win it. Beating Djokovic at the ATP Finals isn't a big deal anyway since it never has any bearing on what happens at the AO as we saw in 2019-2021.
 
tex123 said:
I do NOT care about who you are and your post history. The point is clear. They do not have killer instincts. That does not mean kill yourself to kill the other person when the match was a dead rubber. The trophy was his "kill". Not Rune. Not Djokovic.

Are you thick or deliberately being obtuse? Can I interest you in a dictionary so that you can look up killer instinct?
Click to expand...

Killer instinct and in the same sentence talk about how to avoid tough match ups. lol

I am not the one who needs the dictionary brother
 
NoleFam said:
I'm pretty sure beating Rune, winning that extra 400K, and keeping his win streak going was more important than eliminating Djokovic. He'll have plenty of chances to win the ATP Finals since he's only 22 and definitely is going to win it. Beating Djokovic at the ATP Finals isn't a big deal anyway since it never has any bearing on what happens at the AO as we saw in 2019-2021.
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Not the same, is it? Winning the tournament without Djokovic for these nextgens. If they wait for him to retire and then start winning, they'll always be "asterisked" for life.

He screwed himself big time. I bet he's sat at home thinking about the beat down he received.
 
Indigo said:
The Big 3 were raised without social media, no cell phones, no computers (maybe some simple Amiga or Commodore 64). Basically they are Spartans compared to Z Gen. Novak trained in empty swimming pool during the war to avoid bomb shrapnel. Fed is little older and lived in peace but trained in Swiss Alps climbing high. Big altitude made his lungs and legs strong and helped his footwork. In the same time Nadal was learning hard lesson of being born on an isolated island in Mediterranean in mid 80s. All his pastime while growing up was playing tennis and running to the beach to help his uncle bring fishing nets to the shore. Working as a young sea boy fisherman helper made his both legs and arms strong and sharpened his character. Yeah, no sissy boys here. Those were three hardened 80s kids. Good old 80s.
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Federer played PlayStation :-D When he lost a game he threw the controller out of the room. Nadal, Murray and Monaco played PlayStation too.
 
tex123 said:
Take Sinner for example: Other than bashing balls from the baseline relentlessly, he does not have a good slice or volley or change of pace or drop shots. There's a limited no of things he can do. He's good at bashing balls.

Rune is learning all of those under Becker. I'm excited for him.
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Rune had an excellent transition game and drop shot from his junior days when Lars coached him, and became the #1 ranked junior. Becker can hone those skills, but Holger played an all court game at 14 and 15. Rune's volleys need work, though he's Edberg at net compared to Sinner, Med or Rublev.
 
tex123 said:
When was the last time you saw a No 1 player cramp and retire after two sets in the history of tennis?
When was the last time you saw the most "talented" players lose miserably in straight sets to a 36 year old?
How much patience we should have for 32 year old Dimitrov, 30 year old Thiem, 28 year old Kyrgios, 27 year old Medvedev, 26 year old Zverev, 25 year old Tsitsipas, and 24 year old Ruud? ( @duaneeo )
How much patience should we have for Shapovalov and Aliassime?
When was the last time you saw a 36 year old player hand the no 1 ranking on a plate to a 20 year old only to watch the guy lose 8 consecutive tournaments in a row?
When was the last time you saw a prodigy failing to beat a 36 year old severely suffering from heatstroke being 1-0 up?
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Paraphrasing to Samuel Beckett:
Waiting for the New new new new new generation to win Majors titles.
:confused:
 
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