Nicolas Jarry serve?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by zill, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. zill

    zill Semi-Pro

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    Whats this motion called?

    Which other pros have this service action?

    What are the pros and cons of it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
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  2. Mack-2

    Mack-2 Professional

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    Active players off the top of my head:

    Federico Delbonis
    Caroline Garcia
    Sara Errani


    Not much cons at the rec level. Those guys are serving bombs minus Errani :p
    I know of a few people who would kill to have Delbonis/Jarry’s serve.
     
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  3. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hall of Fame

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    Agassi did something similar when he was injured.

     
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  4. zill

    zill Semi-Pro

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    Why only do it when injured? Why not serve like this always?
     
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  5. zill

    zill Semi-Pro

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    If its so good why don't more pros serve like this?
     
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  6. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hall of Fame

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    It's obviously a simplified service motion.

    I haven't studied the intricate physics, but likely a little less power than a full service motion like Sampras or Roddick. Otherwise, more pros would likely be using it and coaches teaching it.

    In watching Roddick and Groth, their arm keeps moving from the beginning of their service motion, so likely more momentum/inertia going into the serve? Versus going directly into trophy pose and starting from zero momentum...



     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
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  7. Dragy

    Dragy Semi-Pro

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    Holding your arm and racquet high in static even for several instances, imho, differs the way your muscles work, tightens them if even just a bit. For flowing motions, even when there's a slowdown, there's still no pause. You can see this in any variation - abbreviated, classic, staggred, Wawrinka-like (he raises racquet higher and then lets it lower with the elbow getting in place for swing start). Same for groundies - high takeback, let it go down, swing when ball is here.

    Add: Garcia actually also doesn't keep her arm static, she lifts it higher, lowers during her coil until the uncoil and swing begins with elbow level with shoulder line.
     
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  8. heninfan99

    heninfan99 G.O.A.T.

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    he used to serve in a more traditional fashion. wonder if he'll tweak it once more
    great player with huge potential, actually has a backhand
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
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  9. zill

    zill Semi-Pro

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    His current motion looks really powerful and fluent though.
     
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  10. heninfan99

    heninfan99 G.O.A.T.

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    yeah, it works well
     
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  11. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    It's an abbreviated service motion. reasons you would use it are injury to the shoulder or to simplify timing. I sometimes hit a few serves in practice starting with the racket up like the video as it reinforces that the loop through the drop and up to contact should be a smooth continuous motion with no pauses. A lot of instruction videos will advise to use this motion as a step in learning the full motion.

    Sara Eranni, Jay Berger, Tod Martin, and a few other pros have used this motion. You can serve just as fast and just as well with this motion.
     
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  12. styksnstryngs

    styksnstryngs Professional

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    Until a certain level. I don't think this motion would prove quite as fast as a normal motion at the speeds of players like roddick.
     
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  13. kaninfaan

    kaninfaan Rookie

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    One name is the half-serve drill:


    But, as an excercise, it has many names.

    As for pros and cons.
    Accuracy is more important than power, as Federer continously shows us, so if a good serve = power + accuracy and this "shortened motion" creates a "higher total value"...

    I like the comparison with the olympic lifts where most people are capable of higher weights from the power-position then the floor.
    fwiw.
     
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  14. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    After the trophy pose, he looks exactly like Isner.

    I guess the slow start diminishes some power, kinda like you bend your legs slowly then jump < you bend your legs in normal speed then jump.
     
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  15. Mack-2

    Mack-2 Professional

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    I don’t quite understand the bolded part but I’d like to. Can you explain?
     
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  16. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    That was supposedly a young Anna Kournikova walking by at 1:08 (I believe she was training at Nick's academy at the time).
     
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  17. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    The 3 primary serve rhythms:
    https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/the_three_service_rhythms/index.html



    Henin had an abbreviated motion. Nadal's serves in the video above are rather abbreviated. The vid indicates that Federer's serve was a classic rhythm but I'd put it somewhere between classic and staggered (a mild stagger, if you will). Murray is closer to a true classic rhythm.

    Sharapova used an abbreviated motion for a while after coming back from shoulder surgery. Roddick may have used a simple abbreviated serve rhythm at one time. But I would consider his serving style to be an abbreviated-staggered hybrid of some sort.

    Todd Martin adopted an abbreviated style at the end of his pro career (or perhaps, after his ATP career). Jeff Salzenstein also adopted a serve that is more abbreviated than Roddick.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
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  18. MotoboXer

    MotoboXer Semi-Pro

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    I call it a high take-back. Yes it is used as a learning serve/drill. Some players keep it because they fail at trying to use a more normal looking style.
     
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  19. zill

    zill Semi-Pro

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    So what is Jarry's service rhythm? Extreme abbreviated?
     
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  20. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Looks like a clean, simple abbreviated service rhythm to me. Much cleaner than the Jay Berger serve. Jarry’s implementation is not that different from Henin, Agassi (1993), Jeff Salzenstein (recent) or Todd Martin. If you still have access to Flash Player, you should be able to closely study Todd’s implementation of the abbreviated serve here:

    www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/martin_serve.php
     
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  21. zill

    zill Semi-Pro

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    Yes it’s visually appealing and can really see him slam the ball hard downwards after the trophy pose. But I don’t like how Jarry’s tossing arm goes up, down then up. I know it gives him rhythm but that bit looks a bit ugly from the viewer’s perspective.
     
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  22. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Not following you here. it's visually appealing yet it's ugly! Huh???

    For the last UP of the tossing arm, are you referring to the way his left arm goes back late in his follow-thru motion (after the arm tuck into his gut)? I believe both Murray and Roddick do the same thing with the left arm late in the follow-thru.
     
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  23. kaninfaan

    kaninfaan Rookie

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    What I am referencing, in general, is the knowledge that proper technique from the ground up yields the highest performance but quite a lot of people do better from the power-position which I compare to the trophy-pose in tennis.

    Since I am not a weightlifter I will link to someone who knows his way around a weightlifting platform:
    https://www.catalystathletics.com/article/2058/How-to-Fix-Powering-More-Than-You-Squat/

    With a bit of creative thinking/tinkering all the "fixes" he talks about in the article can be mapped to comparative problems/solutions relevant to the tennis-serve.
    Imho, in tennis, it's mostly a matter of the quality of the "full reps". That is; a player does something like the half-serve-drill to correct something and as soon as they go back to their full motion, they go back to their old motion.
    Since quality beats quantity, discipline and patience needs to be embraced at these moments of learning.

    fwiw.

    edited for clarity. might have failed. ask if somethings not clear. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
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  24. zill

    zill Semi-Pro

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    I just don't like how the tossing arm goes up initially then down then fully up. 'Normal' servers raise the tossing arm in one go only.
     
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  25. Jamesm182

    Jamesm182 Semi-Pro

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    Agree with this message. A few people I know hit with this motion , it is used primarily to avoid more strain on the shoulder /rotator cuff . Sort of like an action you would see for a smash/overhead.

    Pro's easier on the joint as it doesn't accelerate as rapidly in to position.
    Can aid timing to a degree as it feels smooth to do so.

    Con's

    in some cases it could limit acceleration.

    it obviously works very well for the people using it , off the top off my head none have problems with double faults etc.
     
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  26. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    So you are referring to that relatively small initial UP of the tossing hand/arm before he actually starts his toss? I didn’t really even notice that short action the first 3 times that I watched the video. That small UP is actually part of his pre-serve bouncing ritual. You can see Jarry perform that motion several times before he serves in the following video. It’s just part his ball bouning style. A little bit like Johanna Konta’s exaggerated, very deliberate pre-serve ball bouncing.

     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
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  27. Mack-2

    Mack-2 Professional

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    Thanks for the explanation! What I still don’t get is the terms that you used in your initial post. You said “most people are capable of higher weights from the power position than the floor ‘position’. ”
    What do the terms ‘power position’ and ‘floor position’ mean in weightlifting? I read the article but still do not understand these terms. Power position meaning the hang variation?
     
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  28. kaninfaan

    kaninfaan Rookie

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    Sports-nomenclature makes everything confusing. :) Yes I meant the hang variation, which some call the power position, in order to compare it to the "half-serve-drill" from "trophy-pose" which some call the "power position".
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    So; with a solid enough technical base and good coaching (preferably from a young age) the full motion is higher performing while for the athlete/player without this luxury, or alternative way of accquiring the same skill, going from the power-position might well be higher performing.
    imho, fwiw, etc. :)
    [​IMG]
     
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  29. Mack-2

    Mack-2 Professional

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    Okay, I understand now . Makes a lot of sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain to me! Appreciate it.
     
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  30. kaninfaan

    kaninfaan Rookie

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    I have to apologize. I linked an article about the receiving-power-position when I thought, and meant to, link a similar article about the pulling-power-position.
    If you read that, I am amazed and grateful that anything Ive written makes sense.

    This quote from the same guy sums up the basis for my comparison:
    Generally speaking, we would expect a hang or block lift to be less than a lift from the floor - this makes sense intuitively: less time and distance to accelerate the barbell upward should mean that an athlete can't lift as much.
    However, in a decent number of cases, even with fairly high level lifters, a partial lift from the hang, or in particular the blocks, can exceed the lifter's best from the floor. This can be for a number of reasons, but typically it indicates a problem with the lift from the floor, such as poor or inconsistent positioning, postural weakness in the early pull, incorrect speed or rhythm, etc.
    (src: https://www.catalystathletics.com/a...on-Lift-Variation-Ratios-Dont-Worry-Too-Much/)

    And now I cant find the article I thought I linked to but this observation is echoed across the weightlifting world and the quote above sums it up in a good way.
    Sorry about the confusion. #clumsy #sloppy #slightly.embarrassed
     
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  31. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    many pros will never hit serves like Roddick no matter what they do. Tod Martin served 120-130 with abbreviated motion so you can serve big with this motion if you use it well.
     
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  32. styksnstryngs

    styksnstryngs Professional

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    That's kind of flawed logic, isn't it? Not everyone can hit 140mph like roddick, but everyone can hit 130 with a shorter acceleration period like Tod Martin? What makes you believe that everyone can do that?
     
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