Nike Vapor IV vs. Nike Breath Free II

[BreakPoint]

I think what we seem to be arguing about is designed use and end use. Johnny Mac used the Air Trainer Is which was a cross training shoe meant for the gym and he used it for tennis. Thats wonderful and all, but what we are trying to clear up is the designed use of the shoe. Feathers are great for clay but seem to have been designed as a hard court shoe. Agassi uses them for hard courts. What Breakpoint is trying to refute is the honeycomb outsole being specifically made for clay. And there is evidence to refute that. BP aint arguing that the honeycomb outsole sucks for clay use, he's just saying that they weren't specifically designed for only clay.

Thank you very much, staedtler!

I didn't think what I was saying was so difficult to understand, but maybe it was? None of what I've been saying is my own opinion, as we've been showing evidence from the manufacturers' themselves to indicate that they are indeed facts.

Hopefully, this will clear things up.

 

[Jackie T. Stephens]

Nike Vapor all the way baby IV!

 

[BreakPoint]

Feathers are great for clay but seem to have been designed as a hard court shoe. Agassi uses them for hard courts.

I should mention that you're exactly right about Agassi. I recall him wearing the Feathers on hardcourts throughout '05 and '06. I wouldn't be surprised if Adidas asked him to wear the Feathers during the hardcourt seasons so that they could promote the Feathers as a hardcourt shoe, since it's often mistaken as a clay court only shoe.

 

[BreakPoint]

Nike Vapor all the way baby IV!

OK, thanks, but could you please provide some reasons why you think the Vapor IV's are better than the BFII's? Have you owned and worn both?

 

[staedtler]

I should mention that you're exactly right about Agassi. I recall him wearing the Feathers on hardcourts throughout '05 and '06. I wouldn't be surprised if Adidas asked him to wear the Feathers during the hardcourt seasons so that they could promote the Feathers as a hardcourt shoe, since it's often mistaken as a clay court only shoe.

He wore the new Feathers for that charity exhibition in Germany that happened like last week or so.

 

[LPShanet]

Ugh....what part of - "Its unique outsole is made especially for hard courts" did you NOT understand? I didn't write this. It's on Adidas' own consumer website, viewable by the entire world.

Are you telling me that you know that Adidas designed the outsole on the Feathers especially for clay courts when they state clearly themselves that, and I quote,: "Its unique outsole is made especially for hard courts" ? So are you a shoe designer for Adidas or do you just have an uncanny ability to read their minds?

It doesn't matter that they work well on clay, the FACT remains they were DESIGNED "especially for hard courts". Their poor performance on hard courts is mostly due to their lack of cushioning, support, and the fact the soles are not very durable so they wear out fast on hardcourts, and not because of the tread design.

My Nike soccer shorts and shirts work well for tennis, but were they designed especially for tennis? No!

Actually, I'll put this to rest. The quote is a typo. That same exact quote was used in the past seasons but with "clay" where it now says hard. When they updated to the marketing materials so that they could include both clay AND hard courts, they switched that line, too, accidentally.

As an earlier poster guessed, despite the fact that the Feather was originally created and designed as a clay court shoe, adidas management didn't want people who played on hard courts (or both hard and clay) to pass on the shoe as a specialty-only item, since they are usable on a hard court. Some pros (including Agassi) have used them as a game day shoe on hard courts, but they were built for clay court play, and the outsole was adidas's attempt to create a new generation clay court sole that outperforms traditional herringbone patterns on clay specifically. They were designed with lightness in mind, but not the impact of hard courts (or the abuse, which is why they don't get a durability guarantee).

 

[KFwinds]

No, it doesn't matter how well they work on clay because this discussion is about what a shoe is specifically designed for. If you don't understand that, then please go back and re-read post #2 by AC. This is not a thread about clay court shoes. If you notice, the topic of this thread is Vapor IV vs. Breathe Free II. Are either of these shoes specifically designed for clay? It doesn't matter to me at all how well they work on clay because I don't play on clay. The debate is whether or not they are designed or made especially for clay and if they are marketed specifically as clay court shoes. The answer is no to both. The fact that they may or may not work well on clay is irrelevant to this discussion. BTW, they don't.

My Nike soccer shirts work better for tennis than most of my Nike tennis shirts do but does that make them 1) tennis shirts? 2) specifically designed or made for tennis? 3) marketed as shirts for playing tennis in? No, no, and no.

Anyone else catch the part here where he doesn't play on clay, yet he's arguing to the death about the herringbone tread being more suited to clay? Maybe someone as "knowledgeable" as yourself can tell us all how you judge the quality of a shoe on a surface you don't play on?

 

[LPShanet]

I should mention that you're exactly right about Agassi. I recall him wearing the Feathers on hardcourts throughout '05 and '06. I wouldn't be surprised if Adidas asked him to wear the Feathers during the hardcourt seasons so that they could promote the Feathers as a hardcourt shoe, since it's often mistaken as a clay court only shoe.

Actually, this was Agassi's choice, not an adidas request. He liked the fit better, as they have a different last from the Barricades and A3 series. When he switched over from Nike, he did a big session trying all the shoes, and decided on the lightness and shape of the Feathers, though he does have his own orthotic pattern used inside.

 

[KFwinds]

Actually, I'll put this to rest. The quote is a typo. That same exact quote was used in the past seasons but with "clay" where it now says hard. When they updated to the marketing materials so that they could include both clay AND hard courts, they switched that line, too, accidentally.

As an earlier poster guessed, despite the fact that the Feather was originally created and designed as a clay court shoe, adidas management didn't want people who played on hard courts (or both hard and clay) to pass on the shoe as a specialty-only item, since they are usable on a hard court. Some pros (including Agassi) have used them as a game day shoe on hard courts, but they were built for clay court play, and the outsole was adidas's attempt to create a new generation clay court sole that outperforms traditional herringbone patterns on clay specifically. They were designed with lightness in mind, but not the impact of hard courts (or the abuse, which is why they don't get a durability guarantee).

BP, this is exactly why I find YOUR information to be some of the most inaccurate on these boards. But, keep fighting the good fight...

 

[BreakPoint]

Anyone else catch the part here where he doesn't play on clay, yet he's arguing to the death about the herringbone tread being more suited to clay? Maybe someone as "knowledgeable" as yourself can tell us all how you judge the quality of a shoe on a surface you don't play on?

Again, as I've stated before, NONE of this is MY opinion. I'm going only by what the manufacturers have stated and what TW has stated in their product descriptions and reviews and that most of the shoes specifically designed for clay have herringbone outsoles. If that's not the case, please explain why the clay versions of both the Oscillates and the BF3's have herringbone soles, whereas, the standard hardcourt versions do not? We're all waiting.

And this is an excerpt from the BFII review by Chris:

Chris found good success on both hard and clay courts. "On both hard and clay courts I found the traction to be good. If anything, the outsole pattern could have been wider for clay court use. The outsole pattern is a little tight and clay would quickly start to stick in the tread. This was no big deal, as a couple of taps with the racquet would free up the tread. However, traction on the clay did not match that of a pure, deep-herringbone clay court outsole. On the hard courts I found the traction to be excellent off the mark.

BTW, I used to play on clay all the time. I just don't currently play on clay.

 

[BreakPoint]

Actually, this was Agassi's choice, not an adidas request. He liked the fit better, as they have a different last from the Barricades and A3 series. When he switched over from Nike, he did a big session trying all the shoes, and decided on the lightness and shape of the Feathers, though he does have his own orthotic pattern used inside.

So did Agassi tell you this himself? Or else how do you know this happened?

 

[BreakPoint]

BP, this is exactly why I find YOUR information to be some of the most inaccurate on these boards. But, keep fighting the good fight...

MY information? I posted a link to an Adidas website so somehow I wrote that? You must have mistaken me for the webmaster for Adidas' website.

I've never disputed that the Feathers might be a great shoe on clay. This debate was what the shoes were especially designed for and NOT how well they work on a particular surface, and since I don't design shoes for Adidas, all I have to go by is what Adidas tells us what they were especially designed for. BTW, how do we even know what LPShanet says is true? Where's the evidence?

At least I add value to this board and was voted "Most Helpful" in that awards thread, unlike you.

 

[TheShaun]

wow, i was folowing this thread for a little bit because i too was interested in the comparison of these two shoes, but it really took a turn. what a train wreck....

 

[KFwinds]

wow, i was folowing this thread for a little bit because i too was interested in the comparison of these two shoes, but it really took a turn. what a train wreck....

Pretty typical when BP is involved; he can't help but personally attack people that *might* know more he does. Just ask NBMJ...

 

[BreakPoint]

Pretty typical when BP is involved; he can't help but personally attack people that *might* know more he does. Just ask NBMJ...

"Personal attack"? This was the first personal attack I noticed in this thread and it was from you towards me:

Are you out of your mind?

Followed by this:

BP, this is exactly why I find YOUR information to be some of the most inaccurate on these boards.

We're still waiting for your explaination of why clay versions of tennis shoes have herringbone patterns if they don't work so well on clay?

Frankly, I don't care if the Feathers are the best shoes ever made for clay or not because I don't currently play on clay. So I don't know why you keep pounding us with your opinion that they work great on clay. I don't think anyone here really cares. This is a thread about the Vapor IV's and the BFII's. And the side discussion is what surface certain shoes are specifically designed for and NOT how well they work on certain surfaces. Do you see the difference? Nobody in this tread is looking for clay court shoes so we don't care how well the Feathers work on clay. What I care about is that the BFII's were NOT specifically designed for clay (as previously erroneously stated above by another poster) because they are not, and that's what I wear currently for hardcourts.

 

[LPShanet]

So did Agassi tell you this himself? Or else how do you know this happened?

I'm friendly with Perry, his manager, and have hit with him a few times. I've also been on adidas' advisory team.

 

[LPShanet]

MY information? I posted a link to an Adidas website so somehow I wrote that? You must have mistaken me for the webmaster for Adidas' website.

I've never disputed that the Feathers might be a great shoe on clay. This debate was what the shoes were especially designed for and NOT how well they work on a particular surface, and since I don't design shoes for Adidas, all I have to go by is what Adidas tells us what they were especially designed for. BTW, how do we even know what LPShanet says is true? Where's the evidence?

At least I add value to this board and was voted "Most Helpful" in that awards thread, unlike you.

I don't want to get into the middle of a fight here. I have no issues with any other posters. I just wanted to provide the info I had, since I was privy to info from inside adidas. Also, if you can find old marketing materials for the Feathers, you'll see that it used to say that the outsoles were developed or designed for clay.

 

[KFwinds]

BP, if you interpreted that as a personal attack you must have some pretty thin skin. No worries; I won't aggravate your insecurities any further.

BTW, if you go back and re-read the first few pages of this thread it will be clear to you how the discussion lead to the use of certain types of soles for different surfaces. You make it sound like my comparison to the Adidas shoes had nothing to do with the discussion. It was already going that direction by the time I posted at #23 on page two. You're entitled to your warped view, but don't twist the facts.