No pusher believes they are a pusher

jered

jered

Rookie
Mixed 18 league is coming up and there was a lively discussion as my team was planning partners. One guy, let's call him Sam, is a well-known pusher. Sam is described as a pusher by everyone I have ever talked to about him and a very successful one; he rarely loses in singles. Captain wants to pair Sam with a very aggressive net player to compliment his steadiness, let's call her Sally. Sam and Sally are cool with this and start talking a little bit of strategy. This is when the team socially oblivious guy, Dick, speaks up. Dick uses the dreaded P-word in suggesting how Sam's pushing should provide a steady deuce side and to place Sally on Ad to get her forehand on the net. Sam loses it and is incredibly offended at being called a pusher declaring he's an aggressive baseliner. Dick doubles down and a few people try to diffuse things in a nice way but agree with Dick essentially. Sam threatens to leave the team due to the disrespect and Dick tries to assure him we value him specifically because he is a winning pusher. Everyone eventually calmed down but you could tell Sam was really bothered by being known as a pusher.

I was shocked. I assumed Sam knew he was a pusher (and maybe even delighted in it) but clearly he saw himself differently. He's described opponents as pushers before who play identically to him. How many pushers don't think they are pushers and are calling other people pushers being totally in denial?

I mean, I'm a basher and I know it. Trying to correct that but it's my default mode. Anyway, I was surprised by the whole thing.
 
jered said:
Mixed 18 league is coming up and there was a lively discussion as my team was planning partners. One guy, let's call him Sam, is a well-known pusher. Sam is described as a pusher by everyone I have ever talked to about him and a very successful one; he rarely loses in singles. Captain wants to pair Sam with a very aggressive net player to compliment his steadiness, let's call her Sally. Sam and Sally are cool with this and start talking a little bit of strategy. This is when the team socially oblivious guy, Dick, speaks up. Dick uses the dreaded P-word in suggesting how Sam's pushing should provide a steady deuce side and to place Sally on Ad to get her forehand on the net. Sam loses it and is incredibly offended at being called a pusher declaring he's an aggressive baseliner. Dick doubles down and a few people try to diffuse things in a nice way but agree with Dick essentially. Sam threatens to leave the team due to the disrespect and Dick tries to assure him we value him specifically because he is a winning pusher. Everyone eventually calmed down but you could tell Sam was really bothered by being known as a pusher.

I was shocked. I assumed Sam knew he was a pusher (and maybe even delighted in it) but clearly he saw himself differently. He's described opponents as pushers before who play identically to him. How many pushers don't think they are pushers and are calling other people pushers being totally in denial?

I mean, I'm a basher and I know it. Trying to correct that but it's my default mode. Anyway, I was surprised by the whole thing.
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“Pusher” is somewhat derogatory, most pushers will acknowledge that they are defensive players, grinders, or counter punchers who win matches because of their fitness. Most of them took up tennis later in life and may have backgrounds in racquetball or track.
 
5sets said:
“Pusher” is somewhat derogatory, most pushers will acknowledge that they are defensive players, grinders, or counter punchers who win matches because of their fitness. Most of them took up tennis later in life and may have backgrounds in racquetball or track.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I totally get that and you're right about it being a negative term. But Sam also really thought he has solid, good looking strokes and he most definitely does not. Kind of fascinating the level of self-deception.
 
jered said:
declaring he's an aggressive baseliner.
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Moveforwardalways said:
“Aggressive baseliner” and “pusher” are on a spectrum. It’s all in the eye of the beholder.
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Anytime someone is looking for advice on a racket or whenever....and they say "aggressive baseliner" I imagine some out of shape 30-50 year old grunting while shanking balls into the net over and over again.
 
You gotta evolve from a pusher to the other distinctions for defensive play, but it's probably good that he knows which course he's on now.
 
There is no widely agreed upon definition of what "pusher" actually means. Typically it's just used as a derogatory term without much thought about what it actually is. I mean, Andy Murray has been called a "pusher" many times! And I think I'd be ok having his game...
 
jered said:
Mixed 18 league is coming up and there was a lively discussion as my team was planning partners. One guy, let's call him Sam, is a well-known pusher. Sam is described as a pusher by everyone I have ever talked to about him and a very successful one; he rarely loses in singles. Captain wants to pair Sam with a very aggressive net player to compliment his steadiness, let's call her Sally. Sam and Sally are cool with this and start talking a little bit of strategy. This is when the team socially oblivious guy, Dick, speaks up. Dick uses the dreaded P-word in suggesting how Sam's pushing should provide a steady deuce side and to place Sally on Ad to get her forehand on the net. Sam loses it and is incredibly offended at being called a pusher declaring he's an aggressive baseliner. Dick doubles down and a few people try to diffuse things in a nice way but agree with Dick essentially. Sam threatens to leave the team due to the disrespect and Dick tries to assure him we value him specifically because he is a winning pusher. Everyone eventually calmed down but you could tell Sam was really bothered by being known as a pusher.

I was shocked. I assumed Sam knew he was a pusher (and maybe even delighted in it) but clearly he saw himself differently. He's described opponents as pushers before who play identically to him. How many pushers don't think they are pushers and are calling other people pushers being totally in denial?

I mean, I'm a basher and I know it. Trying to correct that but it's my default mode. Anyway, I was surprised by the whole thing.
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Record him playing a match and have him watch himself
 
Chalkdust said:
There is no widely agreed upon definition of what "pusher" actually means. Typically it's just used as a derogatory term without much thought about what it actually is. I mean, Andy Murray has been called a "pusher" many times! And I think I'd be ok having his game...
Click to expand...
I think there is a widely agreed upon definition of pusher, at least 50% of people think the following. Of course if 1 person says Andy Murray is a pusher, it's going to be on these forums and it is flat out insane.

Pusher pushes the ball back with minimal ooomph, not a ton of spin, not a ton of pace, but can do it repeatedly and with minimal unforced errors. Their serves will also have an aspect of pushing to them.

Limits: 18 + large 4.0 tournaments won't have a pusher in the finals. 18+ 4.0 sectional champions, most of them, and nationals champions, won't have a pusher playing singles. Generally good 4.0 doubles teams won't have a pusher on them because their balls will get obliterated out of the air at the net.

Large 4.5 18+ singles tournaments won't have a pusher advancing very deeply in the tournament.

Pushers can wreak havoc at 3.5-4.0 USTA team matches, and if your life literally depended on winning 50% or more of your matches playing 3.5-4.0 singles, pushing might be the best choice.

No one with a lot of tennis experience actually thinks a professional player should be described as a pusher, nor a college tennis player, nor a 5.0 etc. etc. That's diluting the word pusher and making it useless as a tennis term.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
I think there is a widely agreed upon definition of pusher, at least 50% of people think the following. Of course if 1 person says Andy Murray is a pusher, it's going to be on these forums and it is flat out insane.

Pusher pushes the ball back with minimal ooomph, not a ton of spin, not a ton of pace, but can do it repeatedly and with minimal unforced errors. Their serves will also have an aspect of pushing to them.

Limits: 18 + large 4.0 tournaments won't have a pusher in the finals. 18+ 4.0 sectional champions, most of them, and nationals champions, won't have a pusher playing singles. Generally good 4.0 doubles teams won't have a pusher on them because their balls will get obliterated out of the air at the net.

Large 4.5 18+ singles tournaments won't have a pusher advancing very deeply in the tournament.

Pushers can wreak havoc at 3.5-4.0 USTA team matches, and if your life literally depended on winning 50% or more of your matches playing 3.5-4.0 singles, pushing might be the best choice.

No one with a lot of tennis experience actually thinks a professional player should be described as a pusher, nor a college tennis player, nor a 5.0 etc. etc. That's diluting the word pusher and making it useless as a tennis term.
Click to expand...

Pegula literally called Halep a pusher when they played a few weeks back. Connors once called Lendl a pusher. Even Berdych was implying Murray was pushing after one of their matches. Probably plenty of other examples.

With that said, it's all relative. I would also agree for most part that at high 4.0-4.5 the pushers don't really succeed anymore, because at that point most players are solid enough to take advantage. Good defensive players is a different subject altogether.
 
fundrazer said:
Pegula literally called Halep a pusher when they played a few weeks back. Connors once called Lendl a pusher. Even Berdych was implying Murray was pushing after one of their matches. Probably plenty of other examples.

With that said, it's all relative. I would also agree for most part that at high 4.0-4.5 the pushers don't really succeed anymore, because at that point most players are solid enough to take advantage. Good defensive players is a different subject altogether.
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Yes, maybe you or someone else wrote that exact phrase in another thread. That's good information, but I'm pretty sure those were using the term "pusher" as insult, how many people would consider Lendl a pusher, he was an athletic terminator. I think the term pusher should survives these flippant insult usages and be a word rec players can use to describe other rec players etc.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
I think there is a widely agreed upon definition of pusher, at least 50% of people think the following. Of course if 1 person says Andy Murray is a pusher, it's going to be on these forums and it is flat out insane.

Pusher pushes the ball back with minimal ooomph, not a ton of spin, not a ton of pace, but can do it repeatedly and with minimal unforced errors. Their serves will also have an aspect of pushing to them.

Limits: 18 + large 4.0 tournaments won't have a pusher in the finals. 18+ 4.0 sectional champions, most of them, and nationals champions, won't have a pusher playing singles. Generally good 4.0 doubles teams won't have a pusher on them because their balls will get obliterated out of the air at the net.

Large 4.5 18+ singles tournaments won't have a pusher advancing very deeply in the tournament.

Pushers can wreak havoc at 3.5-4.0 USTA team matches, and if your life literally depended on winning 50% or more of your matches playing 3.5-4.0 singles, pushing might be the best choice.

No one with a lot of tennis experience actually thinks a professional player should be described as a pusher, nor a college tennis player, nor a 5.0 etc. etc. That's diluting the word pusher and making it useless as a tennis term.
Click to expand...
ooomph is a very relative term isn't it. And somewhat level dependent.

Anyway, I don't disagree with your definition, but plenty others might not agree. And as another poster pointed out, many pros have been called pushers.

For me, a pusher does not have good mechanics, and is not actually able to punish the ball. A player who has good mechanics, and is able to punish the ball, but chooses to play more conservatively, is not a pusher in my book. But there again, such a player might be deemed a pusher by someone else.
 
Moveforwardalways said:
“Aggressive baseliner” and “pusher” are on a spectrum. It’s all in the eye of the beholder.
Click to expand...

It’s even a wide spectrum within an individual.

If I’m playing someone and I’m clearly better than then I’ll put a lot of pace on the ball and hit lots of winners. When I’m playing someone of an equal ability, I’m going to be a counter puncher and want rallies to set up winner opportunities. Lastly when I play someone better than me I often end up playing as a pusher because they’re out hitting me and I’m doing everything I can to stay in a point.
 
Chalkdust said:
ooomph is a very relative term isn't it. And somewhat level dependent.

Anyway, I don't disagree with your definition, but plenty others might not agree. And as another poster pointed out, many pros have been called pushers.

For me, a pusher does not have good mechanics, and is not actually able to punish the ball. A player who has good mechanics, and is able to punish the ball, but chooses to play more conservatively, is not a pusher in my book. But there again, such a player might be deemed a pusher by someone else.
Click to expand...
It's safe to say if a pro has been called a pusher 1-20 times in the history of decades of tennis because an opponent wants to use it as insult, it's not that relevant. Let's all try and list the times Brad Gilbert has called a professional a pusher when commenting on the matches he sees. Or any commentator for that matter. That "pusher" insult is just bitterness.

Yes, but people who call those who choose to play conservatively and have good mechanics pushers, are wrong :).
 
"pusher" is generally considered derogatory:

- You only won because you pushed
- That's not real tennis
- How am I supposed to play against junk like that?

Usually this is after a loss to a pusher.

My primary style is S&V and attack the net. However, my greatest victory was being down a set and 0-3 and altering my game to more slices shorter in the court and winning going away in the 3rd set. Was I pushing? Who the f*** cares? I had a problem to solve and I successfully solved it. How someone characterizes my play style is irrelevant to me.

I don't win matches that way but I certainly win points that way. If it's working, I'll use it; just like any other tactic and strategy in my toolbox.
 
I think "pusher" specifically implies someone with self-taught skills that has settled into the 3.0 to 4.0 range and doesn't mind staying at the same level forever as long as they win most of their matches. They play 3 to 5 matches per week but never practice and have no interest in challenging themselves to improve their technique and compete at a higher level. So in some circles it could be considered an insult. But not as bad as being labeled a pickleball player.
 
I'm a pusher, but I'm trying to get back to being more aggressive. Part of the reason is because of the negativity I face from people. In singles, most opponents hate me and some are vocal about it, the negativity is terrible. In doubles, my partners constantly tell me to play differently than the way I want to, it's frustrating. I don't want to play doubles anymore.
 
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jimmy8 said:
I'm a pusher, but I'm trying to get back to being more aggressive. Part of the reason is because of the negativity I face from people. In singles, most opponents hate me and some are vocal about it, the negativity is terrible. In doubles, my partners constantly tells me to play differently than the way I want to, it's frustrating. I don't want to play doubles anymore.
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Don’t let them get you down, and definitely don’t change the way you play. All this “pushers can’t make it past 3.5/4.0/4.5” is nonsense. Just keep doing you, and improving incrementally and you’ll be fine.
 
jimmy8 said:
I'm a pusher, but I'm trying to get back to being more aggressive. Part of the reason is because of the negativity I face from people. In singles, most opponents hate me and some are vocal about it, the negativity is terrible. In doubles, my partners constantly tell me to play differently than the way I want to, it's frustrating. I don't want to play doubles anymore.
Click to expand...
Playing doubles with a 'pusher' can kinda suck if you're playing against two people that employ orthodox doubles strategy but as a partner you gotta play the hand your dealt. I can't imagine ever breaking my partner's balls for playing the way they play. That can be kind of fun trying to mesh your style with someone else's. Maybe a little more in a pick up game than a tournament or league play. Since I started playing USTA I've yet to play with someone who truly understands doubles. Either can't play at the net or refuse to try. One dude just stays at the baseline and will just rake away until he forces an error or hits it out. Sometimes I am even hesitant to try and poach because he likes standing back there and whaling away.

I played in a tournament with a guy I play with sometimes and it's hilarious, he'll either absolutely rip the ball or he'll just lob up crap. There's no in between. Killed us in the final. It was a feeding frenzy of easy smashes for those guys.

As far as singles goes, screw 'em. I mean, I don't like it as much as the next guy but it's singles. WTF.
 
jimmy8 said:
I'm a pusher, but I'm trying to get back to being more aggressive. Part of the reason is because of the negativity I face from people. In singles, most opponents hate me and some are vocal about it, the negativity is terrible. In doubles, my partners constantly tell me to play differently than the way I want to, it's frustrating. I don't want to play doubles anymore.
Click to expand...
Just play the way you want to play and enjoy playing. Who cares what anyone else thinks.
 
Pass750 said:
Was referring to a different poster, but for anyone who can’t beat a pusher with their current style, could they beat pusher if they pushed too.
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Got it.

I think it would be a tough ask because the pusher is better at pushing than a non-pusher [of the same level].

Still, he would lose more slowly because the non-pusher would suddenly stop making so many errors. He might lose more hair, having pulled it out trying to push.
 
I have a friend who would probably be categorized as a pusher. If I play well, I'll beat him comfortably with an attacking S&V game. But there are days I don't play my best or he is on and he will make me hit extra balls and I'll miss. I have resorted to pushing back against him and I can beat him going this route, but it is exhausting and frustrating as heck and requires extreme patience and self-control.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Got it.

I think it would be a tough ask because the pusher is better at pushing than a non-pusher [of the same level].

Still, he would lose more slowly because the non-pusher would suddenly stop making so many errors. He might lose more hair, having pulled it out trying to push.
Click to expand...
I guess my point is, people complain about “pushers” all the time, but they can’t beat them no matter how they play. That says far more about them then it does the pusher. And my guess these “pushers” aren’t really pushers, just sour grapes from people who don’t have the skills to beat them. The “pushers” probably play great defense, are super consistent, counter punch and stay in rally with opponents who have no rally tolerance. They may even have a hidden game that they don’t have to use as their opponent with “better style of play” just self destructs.
 
Pass750 said:
I guess my point is, people complain about “pushers” all the time, but they can’t beat them no matter how they play. That says far more about them then it does the pusher.
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Agreed. "If you can't beat 'em, complain about 'em." seems to be their motto. It's an ego defense mechanism; much easier than admitting a shortcoming and then working on addressing it.

And my guess these “pushers” aren’t really pushers, just sour grapes from people who don’t have the skills to beat them. The “pushers” probably play great defense, are super consistent, counter punch and stay in rally with opponents who have no rally tolerance. They may even have a hidden game that they don’t have to use as their opponent with “better style of play” just self destructs.
Click to expand...

Not sure about that last part. I've never met a pusher who had a hidden game like S&V or BL Bashing. They tend to be one-dimensional [then again, you can say the same thing about most tennis players in general]. But that one-dimensionality is also a strength: they continually practice one style and are battle-hardened so it's unlikely to break down.

OTOH, I've met plenty of people who could beat me by pushing but that was because they were simply better players than I and I had no weapons that could consistently hurt them.
 
over the years i've changed my defintion of "pusher"
1. early years: someone without good looking strokes, and just blocks the ball back... might not even be using the right grip... but as long as i hit it at them, have good enough foot/hand/eye coordination, to block the ball back, no matter how hard i swing... (the hard i swing, the more likely it goes to the center of the court (i needed to target the safest part of the court because of my poor control), right back to my opponent)
2. middle years: anyone who gets the ball back, without much pace... usually using my pace... they might actually have proper looking strokes, but choose not to be overly aggressive on any shots... typically had high trajectory shots, because they realize the first obstacle to overcome is the net.
3. current: counter puncher... i now realize that me using the term "pusher" was more a reflection of my own poor shot tolerance and my own lack of consistent offense... and rather than look internally at my own faults, i chose to blame my opponent (and my loss) on his/her (s)crappy game

i've been hitting with a couple utr12-13's... and they "push" because (a) i don't have any weapons to hurt them, and they just wait til i miss, and therefore just tighten the noose little by little, with almost 100% chance of success (b) don't have an ego to have to hit winners (they are content with me making mistakes while they extend the rally so they can work on their game - eg. consistent depth, consistent change of direction, hitting their specific targets, etc... )

edit:
to the OP, it seems like a basher is using pusher2 definition, but the opponent is probably claiminng he's not the pusher1 definition... either way, the basher is a cry baby that needs to push more :P
 
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nyta2 said:
i've been hitting with a couple utr12-13's... and they "push" because (a) i don't have any weapons to hurt them, and they just wait til i miss, and therefore just tighten the noose little by little, with almost 100% chance of success (b) don't have an ego to have to hit winners (they are content with me making mistakes)
Click to expand...

That matches my experience with a junior [~ UTR 9]: he can push because I can't do much about it. More entertainment for him than outright hitting winners and ending the point. I can occasionally get into the net and put away a volley/OH but it's only because he lets me approach by pushing. If he were to go all out, the only time I'd get to the net is after my serve and the returns would be a lot tougher than before.
 
@nyta2 , dang, you are lucky to get to hit with UTR 12/13s on a regular basis. Just a few years ago before the local tennis scene contracted I got to hit weekly with UTR 10-12s and it was fun, for me and I think them too because none of their grandpa's played tennis, so I could fill that role, trash talking old man who could get a few balls back.

Anyway, I like your evolving view of pushers. One thing I've noted with lower level baseline bashers is the ones I have hit against so far universally have little or no game at or inside the service line. Chips, slices and drop shots tend to upend their world. Then you meet one who has a full game plus a full smack talk repertoire. I met a relatively recent SEC female player who after she showed me that she could destroy me said, "Wait, are you going to have a bit of cry?" I think I fell in love a little bit that day. Anyway I asked her where she learned to drop shot so well. She told me when she was young into her teens her coach made her drop shop into a bucket placed at various places across the net.
 
graycrait said:
@nyta2 , dang, you are lucky to get to hit with UTR 12/13s on a regular basis. Just a few years ago before the local tennis scene contracted I got to hit weekly with UTR 10-12s and it was fun, for me and I think them too because none of their grandpa's played tennis, so I could fill that role, trash talking old man who could get a few balls back.

Anyway, I like your evolving view of pushers. One thing I've noted with lower level baseline bashers is the ones I have hit against so far universally have little or no game at or inside the service line. Chips, slices and drop shots tend to upend their world.
Click to expand...

I've seen the same. It makes perfect sense: their comfort zone is behind the BL hitting low risk shots into the fattest part of the court. Having to play at net raises the risk level to beyond their liking.

Then you meet one who has a full game plus a full smack talk repertoire. I met a relatively recent SEC female player who after she showed me that she could destroy me said, "Wait, are you going to have a bit of cry?" I think I fell in love a little bit that day. Anyway I asked her where she learned to drop shot so well. She told me when she was young into her teens her coach made her drop shop into a bucket placed at various places across the net.
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Although, to be fair, she wasn't a pusher. She was a markedly better player who happened to be able to push also. Most players who are better than you by a big enough margin should be able to do that also.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Agreed. "If you can't beat 'em, complain about 'em." seems to be their motto. It's an ego defense mechanism; much easier than admitting a shortcoming and then working on addressing it.



Not sure about that last part. I've never met a pusher who had a hidden game like S&V or BL Bashing. They tend to be one-dimensional [then again, you can say the same thing about most tennis players in general]. But that one-dimensionality is also a strength: they continually practice one style and are battle-hardened so it's unlikely to break down.

OTOH, I've met plenty of people who could beat me by pushing but that was because they were simply better players than I and I had no weapons that could consistently hurt them.
Click to expand...
I am thinking like nyta2 so eloquently said, players who someone thinks is a pusher, but they are really not and just need to keep the ball in play with opponents who have no weapons and rally tolerance. There is more game there, it’s just not needed.
 
Pass750 said:
I am thinking like nyta2 so eloquently said, players who someone thinks is a pusher, but they are really not and just need to keep the ball in play with opponents who have no weapons and rally tolerance. There is more game there, it’s just not needed.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's a 2nd [I would argue, much smaller] category.
 
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