No standard USTA Nationals Eligibility Rules?

[BMRSNR27]

Hello. New to the board.

My team just qualified for nationals and I started researching a team we will play. They played an early start league in the fall and four of their guys got bumped to 4.0 in the end of year ratings.

In our section, if you play early start and get bumped end of year, you're no longer eligible to play with that team. I'm noticing the other team has four players (one now DQ'd) that were bumped at the end of the year but are still playing on their team in the post season.

Why doesn't the USTA have a standard rule around this? My team, with legit 3.5's, will have to play a team with three 4.0's in the starting lineup. That's a pretty big disadvantage from the start.

 

[g4driver]

First of all congrats to you and your team!

This is my biggest complaint about the USTA. :evil:

It isn't a National program without the same rules being applied to every Section, every State, every District. It is completely non-standardized to disqualify certain players and allow others to play.

The USTA in SC made up a new rule that a player can only play in the State Mixed Championships on one 18+ team and one 40+ team. So guys who make it to the SC State Mixed Doubles Championship on large teams with 14-16 players, have to pick one team are the other. Some people play 7.0, 8.0 and 9.0 mixed as 4.0 guys at 18+, then get told they have to pick one team. Ridiculous restriction. If a team defaults, that is one them, but don't punish a team or a Captains who can share one player one a 8.0 and 9.0 team.

Just like many governments, making rules that fix a problem that either doesn't exist or can't be fixed. e.g., NYC law banning soft drinks over 32oz. Idiots. NYC isn't going to solve obesity, despite their hubris intent.

 

[gmatheis]

Hello. New to the board.

My team just qualified for nationals and I started researching a team we will play. They played an early start league in the fall and four of their guys got bumped to 4.0 in the end of year ratings.

In our section, if you play early start and get bumped end of year, you're no longer eligible to play with that team. I'm noticing the other team has four players (one now DQ'd) that were bumped at the end of the year but are still playing on their team in the post season.

Why doesn't the USTA have a standard rule around this? My team, with legit 3.5's, will have to play a team with three 4.0's in the starting lineup. That's a pretty big disadvantage from the start.

Any team that makes it to nationals likely has several (if not most) of their players that have DNTRP's in the 4.0 range. (meaning your DNTRP is 3.51-4.00) and will just not be bumped until year end ratings come out in December. I bet you have several players with dynamic ratings in the 4.0 range.

 

[BMRSNR27]

Any team that makes it to nationals likely has several (if not most) of their players that have DNTRP's in the 4.0 range. (meaning your DNTRP is 3.51-4.00) and will just not be bumped until year end ratings come out in December. I bet you have several players with dynamic ratings in the 4.0 range.

Yes, but I would have two or three more on my team if our section allowed us to use guys who had early start ratings of 3.5 that got bumped end of year. It's not being enforced equally across the board, which puts us at a disadvantage.

 

[schmke]

There are two sides to this rule, and not that I agree with this side but I figure it should be explained.

Many sections have early start leagues because it would be impossible to have all leagues running from January to June/July prior to playoffs, so some leagues start in September/October. In an effort to ensure players that are going to be bumped up don't get to unfairly play on a lower level team, early start ratings are used so that a player that will likely be bumped up at year-end is identified as an early start bump and has to play in the early start league as a bumped up player.

Now, ESRs aren't perfect, sometimes someone who wasn't an ESR bump gets bumped at year-end or an ESR bump isn't at year-end. The concern here is with the former.

The problem with not allowing year-end bumps to continue to play is it would penalize the team by potentially reducing the roster to a point that a team couldn't be fielded. And before you say the captain shouldn't have recruited so many borderline players, remember there is no way (from the USTA at least) to know how close a person is to being bumped up. They simply weren't on the ESR bump list so were fine to be rostered at that level.

One can certainly see the argument BMRSNR27 makes though as it doesn't seem fair to the other teams that don't get to have players with an extra up to 6 months of improvement on top of the level they are playing at.

But the reality is what gmatheis says, these bumped up players are probably on the low end of the higher rating and the difference between their ESR and year-end rating is possibly just a few hundredths. So it likely isn't a huge advantage but a 0.05-0.1 advantage for the three players.

So it is worth penalizing a team for having year-end bumps to take away a tenth or less advantage they might have with a couple of players?

 

[BMRSNR27]

There are two sides to this rule, and not that I agree with this side but I figure it should be explained.

Many sections have early start leagues because it would be impossible to have all leagues running from January to June/July prior to playoffs, so some leagues start in September/October. In an effort to ensure players that are going to be bumped up don't get to unfairly play on a lower level team, early start ratings are used so that a player that will likely be bumped up at year-end is identified as an early start bump and has to play in the early start league as a bumped up player.

Now, ESRs aren't perfect, sometimes someone who wasn't an ESR bump gets bumped at year-end or an ESR bump isn't at year-end. The concern here is with the former.

The problem with not allowing year-end bumps to continue to play is it would penalize the team by potentially reducing the roster to a point that a team couldn't be fielded. And before you say the captain shouldn't have recruited so many borderline players, remember there is no way (from the USTA at least) to know how close a person is to being bumped up. They simply weren't on the ESR bump list so were fine to be rostered at that level.

One can certainly see the argument BMRSNR27 makes though as it doesn't seem fair to the other teams that don't get to have players with an extra up to 6 months of improvement on top of the level they are playing at.

But the reality is what gmatheis says, these bumped up players are probably on the low end of the higher rating and the difference between their ESR and year-end rating is possibly just a few hundredths. So it likely isn't a huge advantage but a 0.05-0.1 advantage for the three players.

So it is worth penalizing a team for having year-end bumps to take away a tenth or less advantage they might have with a couple of players?

I would have no problem with it if all sections treated it the same way. Our section, though, doesn't allow the year end bumps to play in the postseason. I personally know of a 3.5 women's team that was decimated that would have had a good shot at nationals except they had two singles players and two doubles players bumped year end.

The rules need to be standardized throughout the country.

Also, the early start in this case isn't due to court availability because they play fall and spring leagues. They stack fall teams and take advantage of the loophole.

 

[schmke]

I would have no problem with it if all sections treated it the same way. Our section, though, doesn't allow the year end bumps to play in the postseason. I personally know of a 3.5 women's team that was decimated that would have had a good shot at nationals except they had two singles players and two doubles players bumped year end.

The rules need to be standardized throughout the country.

Also, the early start in this case isn't due to court availability because they play fall and spring leagues. They stack fall teams and take advantage of the loophole.

Agree on the standardization point.

And perhaps it is just because I'm from a section where we don't have multiple seasons that can advance, but I've always thought it was strange to allow that. It effectively gives players/teams two bites at the apple to try to qualify for playoffs in different seasons. If a section wants to have a different Fall league, go for it, but only one season should be able to advance to Nationals.

 

[BMRSNR27]

Agree on the standardization point.

And perhaps it is just because I'm from a section where we don't have multiple seasons that can advance, but I've always thought it was strange to allow that. It effectively gives players/teams two bites at the apple to try to qualify for playoffs in different seasons. If a section wants to have a different Fall league, go for it, but only one season should be able to advance to Nationals.

In our section, I've seen it used to get a ringer computer rated in the fall for sandbagging purposes.

 

[g4driver]

The lack of a a National standard is clearly penalizing the OP. There is no argument that his team isn't being penalized.


The question is : will the USTA standardize their process so all teams at a given levels are treated equally.

I had a ESR that would have bumped me two years in a row had a played in GA -
Build a fake team, enter your USTA number and you can see the ESR's when they start registering fall leagues. I wasn't bumped, so the ESRs were wrong for two straight years for me.

The OP may have players who have 4.0 ESRs that don't hold up while the other Sections have 3.5 players who get to play at Nationals who are bumped up. The system is broke

Standardize all sections for crying out loud. The lack of a standard is pathetic .

 

[g4driver]

Time to make ESRs and all the shenanigans that go with them, (tanking, two bites at the apple ) history -

ESRs and the Sections that allow Fall leagues to advance make it easy for teams/ players to exploit loopholes.

I have been commenting about these shenanigans for a while and here is a new poster on TT who is clearly adversely affected by this lack of reason by the USTA.

 

[anubis]

Nationals is a completely different story. You've got to take into consideration the fact that NO TEAM is bringing their star lineup to nationals. There's always conflicts with summer vacation schedules, people that can't afford the airfare and hotel, as well as other unexpected costs.

It's very expensive to go to Nationals. Most captains are lucky to have a large % of their mid-level players and maybe one or two stars, along with a few of their weaker players.

I think you'll find that when you go, it's not going to be as bad as you think.

 

[BMRSNR27]

Nationals is a completely different story. You've got to take into consideration the fact that NO TEAM is bringing their star lineup to nationals. There's always conflicts with summer vacation schedules, people that can't afford the airfare and hotel, as well as other unexpected costs.

It's very expensive to go to Nationals. Most captains are lucky to have a large % of their mid-level players and maybe one or two stars, along with a few of their weaker players.

I think you'll find that when you go, it's not going to be as bad as you think.

We are!

Of course, I really don't have any stars, just a really deep team, which doesn't help you get out of pool play at nationals.

 

[mikeler]

Nationals is a completely different story. You've got to take into consideration the fact that NO TEAM is bringing their star lineup to nationals. There's always conflicts with summer vacation schedules, people that can't afford the airfare and hotel, as well as other unexpected costs.

It's very expensive to go to Nationals. Most captains are lucky to have a large % of their mid-level players and maybe one or two stars, along with a few of their weaker players.

I think you'll find that when you go, it's not going to be as bad as you think.

We were fortunate that our entire team except 1 was able to make it.

 

[schmke]

We were fortunate that our entire team except 1 was able to make it.

My entire team was able to make it when we went several years ago.

Now, we had a pretty small roster and knew we had a shot at going pretty far so had circled all the playoff dates early in the year and sort of planned on it so folks were prepared to go. For teams that set Nationals as a goal I'd think it would be similar, but certainly some teams don't set the goal and when it happens suddenly have to see who has conflicts and is financially prepared to make the trip.

 

[mikeler]

My entire team was able to make it when we went several years ago.

Now, we had a pretty small roster and knew we had a shot at going pretty far so had circled all the playoff dates early in the year and sort of planned on it so folks were prepared to go. For teams that set Nationals as a goal I'd think it would be similar, but certainly some teams don't set the goal and when it happens suddenly have to see who has conflicts and is financially prepared to make the trip.

We did the same thing. Everyone knew the dates well in advance. I didn't even bother looking at dates when I got bumped it this year and just realized our 5.0 Sectionals is this weekend. Time to root against our team that advanced so I can get back to 4.5.

 

[BMRSNR27]

My entire team was able to make it when we went several years ago.

Now, we had a pretty small roster and knew we had a shot at going pretty far so had circled all the playoff dates early in the year and sort of planned on it so folks were prepared to go. For teams that set Nationals as a goal I'd think it would be similar, but certainly some teams don't set the goal and when it happens suddenly have to see who has conflicts and is financially prepared to make the trip.

We had districts and sectionals checked off but I didn't want to jinx us by reserving time for nationals! Luckily, all but one is going to make the trip, and that guy might be able to go. And we have a very large roster.

 

[schmke]

We had districts and sectionals checked off but I didn't want to jinx us by reserving time for nationals! Luckily, all but one is going to make the trip, and that guy might be able to go. And we have a very large roster.

Ahhh, then you get the challenge of spreading playing time around since so many will travel, but still trying to win! This is especially true if you are in one of the three 4 team flights as you'll have to try to get 17 or 18 players into three matches, just 24 total slots. The 5 team flight has to play an extra match to make the semis, but also gets the extra match to get players in.

 

[BMRSNR27]

Ahhh, then you get the challenge of spreading playing time around since so many will travel, but still trying to win! This is especially true if you are in one of the three 4 team flights as you'll have to try to get 17 or 18 players into three matches, just 24 total slots. The 5 team flight has to play an extra match to make the semis, but also gets the extra match to get players in.

Luckily, my team is VERY good at understanding their roles and knowing that I'll get them in if I can, but there are no guarantees. Many of the guys have made it known they're going for the experience and if they get to play, great. Worked well at sectionals. We'll see about nationals.