No tennis player will have the epilogue of the true GOAT of GOATS Diego Maradona

Maradona didn't carry Napoli single-handedly as someone said. During his spell there he played with around 11 Italian internationals, 12 if you count one who was in Euro 88 squad but never capped. This was a time when Serie A teams were comprised of mostly Italians due to the rules. Some of them were very good-Di Napoli, Bagni, Ciro Ferrara, Gianfranco Zola.

He also played with Careca and Alemao, Brazilian internationals. Napoli were not a pub team without Maradona. There isn't really any reason Messi could not have possibly achieved the same things with Napoli if he were transported in time and put in Maradona's position.
 

6august

Hall of Fame
That's a good list. Personally, I'd swap The Kaiser with Cryuff, and tbh can't really decide between Pele and Maradona for No1. Some are arguing that Messi is the greatest. Sure he's great (one of the greatest actually), but Maradona never had the luxury of being surrounded by a formidable team: Argentina 1986/90 and Napoli 1986-90. He basically carried the team single-handedly. Messi could never do that, infact in 2010 WC (or 2014 can't remember which exactly) he was surrounded by excellent players...much better team than the 1986 and 90 sides, yet couldn't deliver. Just never had 'that presence' ...the captaining skills Diego had. I remember in the WC 1990 R16, Argentina were being entirely dominated by Brazil, and it took a Maradona genius to assist Canniggia for the lone goal. People forget about these kind of assists when comparing greats and just look at other 'hard'stats, like goals.
Sorry but any top 10 list with C. Ronaldo can't be great.

Of all the Golden Balls Messi and Ronaldo have won till now. many of them should have been awarded to other players.

Xavi, Iniesta carried Spain to 3 bigs title and none of them won Golden Ball?

How about Sneider with the epic run of Holland and Internazionale?

Football leaders and Media love rivalry and drama to sell so they boost Messi and Ronaldo to their current position.

I rate C.Ronaldo equal to Ronaldinho at MOST and leagues bellow Ronaldo Lima, Zidane and Messi. His name should never be mentioned alongside with Diego. He doesn't belong to Top 20 all time. He's not even better than his compatriots Luis Figo and Rui Costa.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
Sorry but any top 10 list with C. Ronaldo can't be great.

Of all the Golden Balls Messi and Ronaldo have won till now. many of them should have been awarded to other players.

Xavi, Iniesta carried Spain to 3 bigs title and none of them won Golden Ball?

How about Sneider with the epic run of Holland and Internazionale?

Football leaders and Media love rivalry and drama to sell so they boost Messi and Ronaldo to their current position.

I rate C.Ronaldo equal to Ronaldinho at MOST and leagues bellow Ronaldo Lima, Zidane and Messi. His name should never be mentioned alongside with Diego. He doesn't belong to Top 20 all time. He's not even better than his compatriots Luis Figo and Rui Costa.
I am not the biggest Ronaldo fan but this is ridiculous. He has won absolutely everything, proved himself in three different countries and has also achieved what neither Eusebio nor Figo achieved, winning a big title with Portugal (all that talk about luck and injury in the final aside). Ronaldinho is way overrated due to his flashy playing style. He was the biggest waste of talent due to his undisciplined lifestyle but even during the two three years where he was actually good, he always failed to deliver when he was supposed to carry the team (Olympia 2000, 2008, WC 2006, CHL final 2006). Ronaldo is light years ahead of him let alone Rui Costa. If at all, you can find arguments for Figo or Eusebio but even those are not quite in his league in my opinion. I agree that Ronaldo Nazario is still slightly better, not by much though.
 
Last edited:

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
He also played with Careca and Alemao, Brazilian internationals. Napoli were not a pub team without Maradona. There isn't really any reason Messi could not have possibly achieved the same things with Napoli if he were transported in time and put in Maradona's position.
Careca and Alemao were no world stars. They played in Brazil’s WC national squad but were no superstars there. No comparison with what other Serie A teams had to offer.
 

Thetouch

Professional
I mean one thing is incrdib
Maradona didn't carry Napoli single-handedly as someone said. During his spell there he played with around 11 Italian internationals, 12 if you count one who was in Euro 88 squad but never capped. This was a time when Serie A teams were comprised of mostly Italians due to the rules. Some of them were very good-Di Napoli, Bagni, Ciro Ferrara, Gianfranco Zola.

He also played with Careca and Alemao, Brazilian internationals. Napoli were not a pub team without Maradona. There isn't really any reason Messi could not have possibly achieved the same things with Napoli if he were transported in time and put in Maradona's position.
Are you serious? Napoli had the weakest of all great teams in Italy. Di Napoli was solid yet never a world star, Bagni left Napoli after their first scudetto since he was 32 aready and didn't even play for Italy anymore. Ferrara only became a star player once he went to Juventus in the 90s because he was still very young when he played with Maradona. Zola barely even played before 1990 because he was meant to be Maradona successor. He started playing regularly in Maradona's last season because Maradona missed 18 matches that year. lol

Compare Napoli to Milan (Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, Ancelotti, Donadoni, Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard), Juve (Platini, Laudrup, Rush, Cabrini, Tacconi, Scirea, Conte, Altobelli and later Baggio) and Inter (Zenga, Bergomi, Matthäus, Brehme, Klinsmann, Ferri, Berti) these were all internationals and some of them huge stars.
 

ron schaap

Hall of Fame
Wel Maradonnas death isnt really fake news. In what idiot bubble people live who deny it?
However football is considered a religion with Diego as head saint in some countries.
You cant totally compare football players with tennis players. its absurd!
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
Sorry but any top 10 list with C. Ronaldo can't be great.

Of all the Golden Balls Messi and Ronaldo have won till now. many of them should have been awarded to other players.

Xavi, Iniesta carried Spain to 3 bigs title and none of them won Golden Ball?

How about Sneider with the epic run of Holland and Internazionale?

Football leaders and Media love rivalry and drama to sell so they boost Messi and Ronaldo to their current position.

I rate C.Ronaldo equal to Ronaldinho at MOST and leagues bellow Ronaldo Lima, Zidane and Messi. His name should never be mentioned alongside with Diego. He doesn't belong to Top 20 all time. He's not even better than his compatriots Luis Figo and Rui Costa.
I disagree re C.Ronaldo. If anything, he should be lower than #10...the guy is a genius on the field. How can you compare him to Ronaldo Lima or Ronaldinho? He basically did the Maradona with the Portugal side carrying them to the Euro championships.
 

Poisoned Slice

Bionic Poster
I might not have Gullit over Cristiano Ronaldo but still good to see such high praise. I was drawn to that Milan team. And wow, just looking over that Milan team again. What a team. Ibra trying to do his own version of Maradona and drag Milan to the league title this season. :p
 
I disagree re C.Ronaldo. If anything, he should be lower than #10...the guy is a genius on the field. How can you compare him to Ronaldo Lima or Ronaldinho? He basically did the Maradona with the Portugal side carrying them to the Euro championships.
Portugal’s route to the title was so unspirinng. Either having ties or just 1-0 scores. Tsunaldo made 3 goals and two of them were against Hungary and he then got injured in the final
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
I might not have Gullit over Cristiano Ronaldo but still good to see such high praise. I was drawn to that Milan team. And wow, just looking over that Milan team again. What a team. Ibra trying to do his own version of Maradona and drag Milan to the league title this season. :p
Speaking of Zlatan, he wasn't best pleased when Borg beat him to the title of Sweden's greatest sportsperson;


Asked for his top Swedes, he replied: "I would have been No 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, with due respect to the others."
A truly humble man, this one.
 

topher

Professional
Until reading this thread just now I had never heard of this Maradona nor heard that he’d died.

Apparently he was a very good soccer player from Argentina. Hopefully he led a full life and went with God.
 
Careca and Alemao were no world stars. They played in Brazil’s WC national squad but were no superstars there. No comparison with what other Serie A teams had to offer.
Careca scored thirty goals in 64 games for Brazil, including five at world cup 1986. 212 goals in 389 games in his career. 73 in 164 games for Napoli. Alemao won La Liga's foreign player of the year in 1988 and played 39 times for Brazil. They both won Brazilian player of the year awards. They were very good players, especially Careca, who is regarded as one of the greatest Brazilian strikers.

Ferrara only became a star player once he went to Juventus in the 90s because he was still very young when he played with Maradona.
Ferrara is around the same age as Costacurta and co. He went to the 1990 World Cup. He was a star before Juve.

Zola barely even played before 1990 because he was meant to be Maradona successor.
Zola played 55 times for Napoli while Maradona was there. He was 24-25, not very young for a footballer. He was capped for Italy in 1991.

Compare Napoli to Milan (Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, Ancelotti, Donadoni, Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard
Juve (Platini, Laudrup, Rush, Cabrini, Tacconi, Scirea, Conte, Altobelli and later Baggio)
Inter (Zenga, Bergomi, Matthäus, Brehme, Klinsmann, Ferri, Berti) these were all internationals and some of them huge stars.
I'm not sure what you're doing here other than listing a bunch of names who helped prevent Napoli from winning more.

Some of them didn't play together and weren't playing for those teams all the time when Maradona was in Italy. Some, like Baggio, Conte and Platini were only around for one season. Some, like Ian Rush and Michael Laudrup, weren't even considered great successes. Some like Atobelli and Scirea were getting old. Nicola Berti wasn't outstanding so I'm not sure why he's there.

Maradona played with good players and wasn't single-handedly carrying Napoli to win cups! Giordano, Carnevale, Crippa, Francini, Mauro and Fusi were good players too -to add to the ones I already mentioned.
 

Thetouch

Professional
Ferrara is around the same age as Costacurta and co. He went to the 1990 World Cup. He was a star before Juve.
He was a great player in Napoli but he never played a single minute in 1990 because Italy had all the players from Milan, Inter and Juve. He became a regular player for Italy after he went to Juventus.

Zola played 55 times for Napoli while Maradona was there. He was 24-25, not very young for a footballer. He was capped for Italy in 1991.
Zola didn't play much in his first season in 1989/90 (Napoli's last season they won the title) because he was more of a replacement to Maradona whenever he was injured. He played only 5 times from the start. Same thing happened in Maradona's last season 90/91 he only played twice from the start until the December of 1990 but then by late January of 1991 he played till the end of the season because Maradona missed many games and all games from late March till the end of the season. So Zola was never THE player at that time he became in later years. But you are right, he was already 24 at that time.


I'm not sure what you're doing here other than listing a bunch of names who helped prevent Napoli from winning more.
I did the same what you did, listing a bunch of players who were successful with their teams.

Some of them didn't play together and weren't playing for those teams all the time when Maradona was in Italy.
They mostly did though, I have seen Platini, Boniek and Laudrup playing against Maradona for instance.

Some, like Baggio, Conte and Platini were only around for one season. Some, like Ian Rush and Michael Laudrup, weren't even considered great successes.
Platini played football until 1987, so he was there for the first 3 seasons that Maradona played in Italy. Whether Rush or Laudrup were considered success or not doesn't change the fact that they played for Juventus. Baggio came later but he still played with Schillaci, Hässler and Cesar against Napoli too. These were all players during Maradona's Napoli time.

Some like Atobelli and Scirea were getting old.
So was Bagni.

Maradona played with good players and wasn't single-handedly carrying Napoli to win cups! Giordano, Carnevale, Crippa, Francini, Mauro and Fusi were good players too -to add to the ones I already mentioned.
All of them good players, no doubt. But they were never at the level of some of the players Milan, Juve and Inter had. Napoli was like Argentina 1986, they worked well as a team but they didn't have world class players compared to other teams.

Milan had some of the best defenders/midfielders/strikers in history of football like Baresi and Maldini or Donadoni who was viewed the best right wing at that time. Then add the dutch players who had also won the European Cup in 1988 with the Netherlands (Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard). Inter had another italian alltime great defender and World Champion with Bergomi who I think was the team Captn of Italy in 1990, then Zenga who was the goalkeeper in the italian Sqaud in 1990 and the 3 World Champions Matthäus, Brehme, Klinsmann - Matthäus, just like Gullit and Van Basten also won the Ballon D'or. Juventus had a couple of older world champions from 1982 and some new foreign stars and also Platini, the man who had also won the European Cup with France. Sure Napoli had Careca, a great player too and world class striker at that time but again Napoli as a team was nowhere near close to the level of the other 3 clubs in terms of quality. They also couldn't afford too buy many good players because Maradona was still expensive.

And as for Maradona's impact: look what happened in the 1990/91 season. He missed like 18 games because he was too heavy involved with drugs and then played his last game in March of '91. Napoli finished in 8th place (the year before they won the championship) and never won anything again when Maradona left. That was the worst season since 1986 when Napoli finished 3rd. The previous 4 years they had either won the championship or finished as runner ups.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
Portugal’s route to the title was so unspirinng. Either having ties or just 1-0 scores. Tsunaldo made 3 goals and two of them were against Hungary and he then got injured in the final
Point is, could you see Portugal winning the title or even getting to the final without CR7?
AsolutEly not!
 

Tostao80

Rookie
I disagree re C.Ronaldo. If anything, he should be lower than #10...the guy is a genius on the field. How can you compare him to Ronaldo Lima or Ronaldinho? He basically did the Maradona with the Portugal side carrying them to the Euro championships.
Is this a serious post. Ronaldo did not carry Portugal to that Euro win. In the 6 games leading to the final, he only scored in TWO of them. His performances were very indifferent. And of course, there's the final where he came off injured early and had to watch his team win without him. Griezmann scored many more goals and was voted player of the tournament. In 86, Diego was clearly the best player of the tournament, not very close at all.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
Until reading this thread just now I had never heard of this Maradona nor heard that he’d died.

Apparently he was a very good soccer player from Argentina. Hopefully he led a full life and went with God.
Someone saying he/she never heard of Maradona is more shocking than someone saying he/she never heard of Federer.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
Is this a serious post. Ronaldo did not carry Portugal to that Euro win. In the 6 games leading to the final, he only scored in TWO of them. His performances were very indifferent. And of course, there's the final where he came off injured early and had to watch his team win without him. Griezmann scored many more goals and was voted player of the tournament. In 86, Diego was clearly the best player of the tournament, not very close at all.
I’m not comparing him to Maradona! Christ! I’m just pointing out that there is no way Portugal would have won or even made the final without CR7. It’s not only about scoring goals, it’s also about assisting, captaining and inspiring the team to be their very best... just as Maradona did.
 

6august

Hall of Fame
I am not the biggest Ronaldo fan but this is ridiculous. He has won absolutely everything, proved himself in three different countries and has also achieved what neither Eusebio nor Figo achieved, winning a big title with Portugal (all that talk about luck and injury in the final aside). Ronaldinho is way overrated due to his flashy playing style. He was the biggest waste of talent due to his undisciplined lifestyle but even during the two three years where he was actually good, he always failed to deliver when he was supposed to carry the team (Olympia 2000, 2008, WC 2006, CHL final 2006). Ronaldo is light years ahead of him let alone Rui Costa. If at all, you can find arguments for Figo or Eusebio but even those are not quite in his league in my opinion. I agree that Ronaldo Nazario is still slightly better, not by much though.
There was a time, Zinedine Zidane and Manuel Rui Costa were 2 last classical Numero 10 left in this world. Rui Costa was unlucky with Portugal and he's too proud and loyal to not leave Fiorentina sooner. He won the Champions League immediately after arriving Milan. Same with Batistuta with the Scudeto in AS Roma.

Football nowadays is watched through Youtube hightlights, wikipedia and articles headlines. It's not what it used to be. 90% of football followers nowadays actually don't follow football.

I can't believe someday people will judge a players by scores and titles.
 

6august

Hall of Fame
Even peak Kaka is better than c. Ronaldo, too.

)))

Portugal's win is no different to Greek's win. It's a combination of ridiculous luck and ridiculous draws.
 
Is this a serious post. Ronaldo did not carry Portugal to that Euro win. In the 6 games leading to the final, he only scored in TWO of them. His performances were very indifferent. And of course, there's the final where he came off injured early and had to watch his team win without him. Griezmann scored many more goals and was voted player of the tournament. In 86, Diego was clearly the best player of the tournament, not very close at all.
Ronaldo has carried Portugal many times, including in many qualifying matches, but not during those 7 matches. He was a leader on and off the pitch, but didn't make a huge difference with his play. It was a weird tournament for Portugal, which deserved to win Euro 2004 a lot more, but that's football. Portugal won Euro 2016 straight out of the Italia playbook.
 

Tostao80

Rookie
Ronaldo has carried Portugal many times, including in many qualifying matches, but not during those 7 matches. He was a leader on and off the pitch, but didn't make a huge difference with his play. It was a weird tournament for Portugal, which deserved to win Euro 2004 a lot more, but that's football. Portugal won Euro 2016 straight out of the Italia playbook.
True, but he hasnt had any great tournaments as an individual, not ones that will be spoken about in years to come. He has been great overall, so deserves the praise. Diego, on the other hand, was a different story.
 

Nole_King

Professional
Yeah cause you go around asking random people on the street in all countries about Maradona. :-D And wow they know more about Maradona than soccer itself. :-D I expect such nonsense from Djokovic himself not from his fans. 8-B
Guess you know nothing about people who move around for work and live temporarily in different cities in the world. Because when you do so you make friends from a wide spectrum of cultures with whom you share and discuss and improve your understanding of the world outside of the country you were born and raised in. Sorry I can see that you know nothing outside of the well you live in but I guess you can try a little being not obviously foolish in your posts although it does seems that it comes very naturally to you.
 

Nole_King

Professional
Sorry I wasn't clear in my post. My impression is that Novak is more revered in Serbia than Fedal in Switzerland/Spain. I have no idea how popular these guys are in India.
Fedal are very close in terms of popularity in India although mostly within the urban circles as they are the ones who follow tennis more. Novak, my friends say, lag behind the two.

And yes I do agree that heroes are revered more in their country if their country is on the poorer side. So definitely Novak would be celebrated more in Serbia than Fedal in Switzerland/Spain.
 

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
Agree, much tougher than Portugal, on par with Denmark in 1992 but Greek was unbelievably lucky that year. Portugal had both: luck and draw.
how greece was lucky? they didnt need a penalty shootout and cant remember referee mistakes helping them.
 
He was a great player in Napoli but he never played a single minute in 1990 because Italy had all the players from Milan, Inter and Juve. He became a regular player for Italy after he went to Juventus.
Ferrara was playing qualifiers for Italy as early as 1987. He did play once at World Cup 1990. He won around half of his Italy caps while Maradona was at Napoli. Incidentally De Napoli played nearly every match for his country at World Cup 1990, as did Careca and Alemao.

And as for Maradona's impact: look what happened in the 1990/91 season. He missed like 18 games because he was too heavy involved with drugs and then played his last game in March of '91. Napoli finished in 8th place (the year before they won the championship) and never won anything again when Maradona left. That was the worst season since 1986 when Napoli finished 3rd. The previous 4 years they had either won the championship or finished as runner ups.
They finished in eighth place but they were only 9 points behind second. Alemao didn't play as much and Carnevale was gone. It wasn't all due to Maradona's absence. They lost 8 games that season and Maradona played in 7 of them.

In their first full season without Maradona they actually finished fourth, not too shabby.

All of them good players, no doubt. But they were never at the level of some of the players Milan, Juve and Inter had. Napoli was like Argentina 1986, they worked well as a team but they didn't have world class players compared to other teams.

Milan had some of the best defenders/midfielders/strikers in history of football like Baresi and Maldini or Donadoni who was viewed the best right wing at that time. Then add the dutch players who had also won the European Cup in 1988 with the Netherlands (Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard). Inter had another italian alltime great defender and World Champion with Bergomi who I think was the team Captn of Italy in 1990, then Zenga who was the goalkeeper in the italian Sqaud in 1990 and the 3 World Champions Matthäus, Brehme, Klinsmann - Matthäus, just like Gullit and Van Basten also won the Ballon D'or. Juventus had a couple of older world champions from 1982 and some new foreign stars and also Platini, the man who had also won the European Cup with France. Sure Napoli had Careca, a great player too and world class striker at that time but again Napoli as a team was nowhere near close to the level of the other 3 clubs in terms of quality. They also couldn't afford too buy many good players because Maradona was still expensive.
I wouldn't argue that Inter, Juventus and Milan had better players overall but people exaggerate the difference in quality. I said he played with 12 Italian internationals earlier-it was actually a bit more than that, and he played with Bertoni as well in the early days, an Argentine international.

Napoli won four big trophies. In the Coppa Italia they didn't play any big teams. They beat Juventus In the Uefa Cup quarter-finals second leg after Maradona was substituted. Careca scored four goals in the UEFA Cup semi-finals and final combined.

In 86/87 Napoli had around the same number of Italian internationals as Juventus (6, counting Bonini) and a little less than Inter and Milan (9). When Napoli won the title In 86/87 Inter didn't have a lot of big stars. Their midfielders weren't anything special apart from Tar-delli who was getting old. Rummenige barely played and barely scored. AC Milan were playing Mark Hately up front and Maldini was only a teenager.

In 89/90 Napoli had 7 Italian internationals, just a little less than Juventus(9) and Inter (8). Neither Juventus or Inter were that great. Rui Barros was playing up front for Juventus. INter were knocked out in first round of Uefa Cup by Malmo. There's no doubt they did well to beat AC Milan to the title, who had a lot more Italian internationals, but Ruud Gullit only played a few games that season. Costacurta, Van Basten, Donadoni and Ancellotti also missed a lot of games. When Napoli beat Milan in the league game Van Basten, Maldini, Donadoni and Gullit weren't playing. Rikjaard was substituted at half-time. Milan went deep in all competitions and had distractions. Napoli were also awarded a win for crowd trouble against one team that helped them go ahead of Milan near the end of the season.

Napoli's Serie A record without Maradona playing in title winning seasons: 5 wins, one draw, one loss (against Inter away). Sure he was a great player, but he didn't win Napoli trophies by himself. Ottavio Bianchi and other players deserve a lot of credit too. I think Messi could have done what Maradona did.
 
Last edited:

Poisoned Slice

Bionic Poster
Even peak Kaka is better than c. Ronaldo, too.

)))

Portugal's win is no different to Greek's win. It's a combination of ridiculous luck and ridiculous draws.
Can remember him taking United out to the woodshed when Milan got us in the 2007 champions league, We did well at Old Trafford but he was just on another level. A brilliant player. Sad that he is another to end up burning out.
 

alexio

Hall of Fame
Can remember him taking United out to the woodshed when Milan got us in the 2007 champions league, We did well at Old Trafford but he was just on another level. A brilliant player. Sad that he is another to end up burning out.
one popular guy here in our country made a great film about maradona very recently (the duration is 2 hours) yesterday watched it, very liked it to know many things that didn't know before. so one of the interesting thoughts was that diego could potentially have three world cup titles, in 78 a stupid decision to leave him out of a team and in 90 in the final at 85min referee also made a mistake with that penalty, then matthaus himself admitted it, it's quite unknown what it would be if not an obvious mistake by referee
 
Last edited:

JaoSousa

Hall of Fame
This thread itself proves why Maradona was so great. On a tennis forum a thread goes 10 pages talking about football. And he was the "D10S" of that sport, especially in his country. I can't think of an athlete in any other sport who achieved that (Ali, Jordan maaaayyyybbeeee).
 

JaoSousa

Hall of Fame
I have no more interest in this discussion, believe what you want to believe. 8-B Let me know when one of his videos from the 80's or 90's gets billion of views on YouTube. Or let's just start with 100 million views. 8-B
Music and football are two very different things if you are comparing a youtube video.
 

JaoSousa

Hall of Fame
Btw, If you had any clue about football you would know that a World Cup final usually generates around 1 Billion people on TV screens! Guess what? Maradona has played 2 World Cup finals which means around 2 Billion people actually watched him playing LIVE for 180 minutes.
Don't think it works that way, but your point still stands.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
yea, self-made movie to make it clear for everyone and for himself who is the goat again.. don't get me wrong, i like them both pretty in equal measure (elv1s and michael), so they're on the same level as fed and nadal and both have great points in their favor to be considered the goat really..thus i wouldn't be so sure about michael to be the undisputed king of the whole thing:D
He may have done some self serving things but they were no greater than his actual reality lol. As for the rest of your point though yes I agree, I would never say Elvis wasn't in the conversation :)

 

6august

Hall of Fame
Peak Roberto Baggio is 3 times better than C. Ronaldo too.

If Italy was more lucky in the penalty shootout, he'll forever be remembered as one of football Gods.
 

alexio

Hall of Fame
Peak Roberto Baggio is 3 times better than C. Ronaldo too.

If Italy was more lucky in the penalty shootout, he'll forever be remembered as one of football Gods.
who is baggio, we've never heard this name, well, romario is a true legend, no dount
 

6august

Hall of Fame
Like Maradona, Baggio single handedly brought Italy to the final.

I don't remember anything about C Ronaldo's performance in Portugal's campaign.

He's the most overrated man in history. Closly followed by David Backham. They're great at selling T-shirts, not football.

))))
 

6august

Hall of Fame
who is baggio, we've never heard this name, well, romario is a true legend, no dount
Baggio is Federer of football. He wrote poems with his magical foot. He's probably the greatest player ever of Italy.

Romario was a decent striker, but perhaps he's better at banging girls than playing football.
 

Thetouch

Professional
Ferrara was playing qualifiers for Italy as early as 1987. He did play once at World Cup 1990. He won around half of his Italy caps while Maradona was at Napoli. Incidentally De Napoli played nearly every match for his country at World Cup 1990, as did Careca and Alemao.
Ferrara only played once against England after Italy had lost to Argentina in the semis, which is not relevant at all, I mean it's a game for the 3rd place most players don't even want to play. Even Berti played 3 or 4 games, some from the start. De Napoli yes, he was a solid member as I said myself and I never argued about Careca and Alemao not being internationals.

They finished in eighth place but they were only 9 points behind second.
Yes but 9 points nowadays are like 3 victories in difference, however 9 points in 1991 were 4 victories and a draw because you only got 2 pts for a victory then. That's a 17 point difference in 2020 to the 2nd place if you compare the Napoli win-loss-draw from 1991.

Alemao didn't play as much and Carnevale was gone. It wasn't all due to Maradona's absence. They lost 8 games that season and Maradona played in 7 of them.
Alemao played 3 more games than Maradona that season since Maradona played the least games of them all. So all in all what we have here is a weaker Napoli, with a drug addict Maradona missing training sessions, partying and missing half the season while still scoring the most goals after Careca while other players did not perform well either. Napoli simply couldn't compensate it because they didn't have many options. Now look at the competition again, look at Sampdoria, Milan, Juve, Roma, Inter etc and all the players they had. Napoli lost to Sampdoria twice, the team who won the championship and they lost to Milan, Juve and Inter, so excatly the teams who had new stars and better teams overall. What players did Napoli even buy after the WC 90? Even Lazio had bought Riedle and Ruben Sosa, not saying Lazio was that great but they could afford it.

In their first full season without Maradona they actually finished fourth, not too shabby.
True. But look at the team they had a year later and the players performed a lot better too. They had some new players like Laurent Blanc and Padovano. Careca scored 15 goals (9 in the previous season) and Zola scored 11 goals (4 in the previous year). So Maradona always had an impact on Napoli. when he played well, the whole team did better, when he played bad they did too. You could argue and say after 6 years Napoli was too dependent on him before he left.

I wouldn't argue that Inter, Juventus and Milan had better players overall but people exaggerate the difference in quality. I said he played with 12 Italian internationals earlier-it was actually a bit more than that, and he played with Bertoni as well in the early days, an Argentine international.
I never said he didn't play with good players, I actually admitted it. It's just that when when Maradona was missing a game in his best days, Napoli simply couldn't compensate him. When Gullit didn't play for Milan they still had 5 other stars to carry the team. In the 1990 season they finished 2nd with Gullit barely playing at all.

Napoli won four big trophies. In the Coppa Italia they didn't play any big teams. They beat Juventus In the Uefa Cup quarter-finals second leg after Maradona was substituted. Careca scored four goals in the UEFA Cup semi-finals and final combined.
They also beat Bayern Munich and Stuttgart along the way to win the Cup. Yes Careca was great and from what I remember Maradona assisted him at least 4 goals in the semis and final, definitely 2 in the final if not 3 overall, I can't remember. He also scored against Juve I believe.

This is actually another stat that I have to look up, in all those years Maradona played against Milan, Juve and Inter he scored many goals, Out of my head I can recall at least him scoring 6 goals against Milan, 2 or 3 against Juve and another 2 against Inter but I would have to look it up. Not even counting the assists.

In 86/87 Napoli had around the same number of Italian internationals as Juventus (6, counting Bonini) and a little less than Inter and Milan (9). When Napoli won the title In 86/87 Inter didn't have a lot of big stars. Their midfielders weren't anything special apart from Tar-delli who was getting old. Rummenige barely played and barely scored. AC Milan were playing Mark Hately up front and Maldini was only a teenager.
Right but keep in mind that Careca and Alemao didn't even play for Napoli when they won their 1st championship. Ferrara was the same age as Maldini and Bagni and Giordano were getting old as well, they were both 31.

In 89/90 Napoli had 7 Italian internationals, just a little less than Juventus(9) and Inter (8). Neither Juventus or Inter were that great. Rui Barros was playing up front for Juventus. INter were knocked out in first round of Uefa Cup by Malmo. There's no doubt they did well to beat AC Milan to the title, who had a lot more Italian internationals, but Ruud Gullit only played a few games that season. Costacurta, Van Basten, Donadoni and Ancellotti also missed a lot of games. When Napoli beat Milan in the league game Van Basten, Maldini, Donadoni and Gullit weren't playing.
If the players didn't perform well, that's one thing but it has nothing to do with the team's potential or being weak. True Gullit missed a lot, he was injured almost all season but Ancelllotti played 24 matches, Van Basten played 26, Rijkaard played 29 and Donadoni played 24 matches. Maradona played 28 games yet scored 16 goals.

Napoli's Serie A record without Maradona playing in title winning seasons: 5 wins, one draw, one loss (against Inter away). Sure he was a great player, but he didn't win Napoli trophies by himself.
He had the support he needed but it's 100% fair to say that without Maradona Napoi would have never won anything in the 80s and early 90s for the simple fact that no world class player ever wanted to play for Napoli. Careca came after Maradona had established the team on top. But no other player at his level aver played for Napoli before or after.

Ottavio Bianchi and other players deserve a lot of credit too.
I agree.

I think Messi could have done what Maradona did.
We will never know. But I believe he couldn't. Messi's character doesn't fit for Napoli. IMO he wasn't tough enough mentally and also physically to play for that team and in that league back then. If at all he would have done better for Juve or Milan.

Man, I should focus more on tennis again. lol This is interesting though, it reminds me of many things of that time. ^^
 
Last edited:

toby55555

Hall of Fame
Like I said I don't follow football that closely and will defer to the die-hard fans for any technical or statistical comparison, but to me the idea that Messi belongs in the same league as Maradona and Pelé if not even higher is almost comical. For most of us casual fans the WC is where football legends are born, and Messi has been lackluster to say the least on the world's biggest stage. First off he can't even claim his rival Ronaldo's excuse of being stuck with a middling team, but it's really not the fact that he never led Argentina to victory but his lack of a standout performance which hurts him vs. not only the two GOATs but also Fontaine, Garrincha, Muller, Cruyff, Rossi, Beckenbauer, Zidane, the other Ronaldo, etc.

And yeah yeah CLs and all that, but no serious tennis fan would agree that a non-Slammer with whatever other record deserves to be ranked #1 in any given year and that's almost what we're looking at here. If one wants to put Messi over any of that latter group, fine, but over the co-players of the 20th century? I say that's stretching an already dubious logic well beyond its breaking point.



I was still living in (East) Asia when The Bodyguard came out in 1992, and I can tell you for a fact that the name "Whitney" wouldn't have rung a bell for me and most of my schoolmates until her soaring rendition of Dolly Parton's old hit became the worldwide smash that defined her career. Both Maradona and Pelé were household names well before then. And have you even checked to see how many football fans watch old Maradona clips every day?

Again you're not trying hard enough to look beyond your borders. We agree on sports vs. pop culture overall, but Whitney even at her absolute peak was no MJ or Madonna. Not even close, either in cultural impact or in artistic merit which will ultimately decide their legacy. Houston was at best a tremendously gifted vocalist who abandoned her gospel roots for pop schlock which she turned into commercial gold through one-of-a-kind pipes and charisma. And like others of its kind that gold will ultimately prove fraudulent - with the one exception courtesy of Dolly, yes, which somehow makes perfect sense as it's an unwieldy mixture of sincerity and self-delusion that she struggled to balance throughout her career. This one time her gospel influence won out, almost overpowering Dolly's fragile aria of resigned love which dimmer critics mistook for bombast but which in fact imbues the song with an additional layer of catharsis missing from the original. For that reason "I Will Always" will always be known as Houston's signature song even though she didn't write a word or note of it, and I do expect it to endure as long as Parton's own timeless classic "Jolene" which appeared on the same original album, but this version is in the end not one but two covers - one serving as a return to Houston's Black Baptist heritage and the other as a tribute to the country great whom she clearly wanted to do justice. No wonder she never came close to duplicating the stroke of serendipity.

Now I can already hear you saying, "But Madonna was never half the singer Whitney was." No, she wasn't, nor is she much of an instrumentalist. But she's had a hand in most of her best songs, which are among the most enduring pop confections ever written and span at least three decades: "Lucky Star," "Into the Groove," "Live to Tell," "Papa Don't Preach," "True Blue," "Open Your Heart," "La Isla Bonita," "Who's That Girl," "Like a Prayer," "Express Yourself," "Cherish," "Oh Father," "Dear Jessie," "Vogue," "This Used to Be My Playground," "Deeper and Deeper," "Rain," "I'll Remember," "Secret," "Take a Bow," "You'll See," "Frozen," "Ray of Light," "Drowned World/Substitute for Love," "The Power of Good-Bye," "Nothing Really Matters," "Music," "Don't Tell Me," "Hung Up," "Sorry," "Get Together," "Jump," "Celebration" and likely more to come. And that doesn't even include such first-rate singles as "Holiday," "Borderline," "Material Girl" and "Dress You Up" that she handed over to her collaborators early in her career.

Not even MJ boasts as extensive a parade of hits, and while Madge has never been a great lyricist and remains like Jackson a dance artist at heart "Like a Prayer" is among the most majestic of all art pop while "Live to Tell" finds her at her most searingly introspective. Add to that "Vogue," "Express Yourself" and other immortal dance anthems and a constant urge to reinvent oneself (which you typically dismiss as attention grabbing and nothing more) and you've got a pop royalty second only to Jackson since the Beatles. By contrast Whitney wasn't an auteur of any kind but more of a producer-editor who needed the right material and circumstances to strike gold. Not everyone can be an MJ or MDNA, and there's no shame in that.



In postwar popular culture there's Michael Jackson and there's everyone else. Chaplin is probably the closest equivalent before the war, but like you said MJ was a child prodigy so he would've had a leg up even without the built-in media advantage of his era.

Also comparing these numbers is always a dicey business. By official counts even the most successful albums sell no more than 30-50 million copies, but that's only certified ownership figures and we know the number of people who've listened to the most popular singles from these records or viewed the MVs is far higher. Likewise the Game of Thrones finale might have attracted "only" 13.61 million viewers in the US, but there were millions more outside and the series is one of the most pirated ever. Hence the estimate of as high as 1 billion viewers worldwide, and assuming the number isn't too far off we're talking a global event on par with WC finals. And I'm guessing you already know that the 1 billion-ish WC estimate is for peak viewership, with an average of about half the total.

Still don't think Whitney is all that close to Maradona in worldwide fame and impact, but when you turn to a living legend like Paul McCartney the comparison gets rather more complicated, especially since everyone knows the other half of L&M is dead... and Paul then has to share some of the spotlight with Ringo! Does that mean PM would be entitled to only 1/4 of the Beatles' legacy? Far from it, but you can already see why these cross-field comparisons are so tricky.
Patrick Bateman has spoken.
 

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
Like Maradona, Baggio single handedly brought Italy to the final.

I don't remember anything about C Ronaldo's performance in Portugal's campaign.

He's the most overrated man in history. Closly followed by David Backham. They're great at selling T-shirts, not football.

))))
zidane is the most overrated player ever. then ronaldinho. beckham was never rated that highly
 

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
Ferrara only played once against England after Italy had lost to Argentina in the semis, which is not relevant at all, I mean it's a game for the 3rd place most players don't even want to play. Even Berti played 3 or 4 games, some from the start. De Napoli yes, he was a solid member as I said myself and I never argued about Careca and Alemao not being internationals.



Yes but 9 points nowadays are like 3 victories in difference, however 9 points in 1991 were 4 victories and a draw because you only got 2 pts for a victory then. That's a 17 point difference in 2020 to the 2nd place if you compare the Napoli win-loss-draw from 1991.



Alemao played 3 more games than Maradona that season since Maradona played the least games of them all. So all in all what we have here is a weaker Napoli, with a drug addict Maradona missing training sessions, partying and missing half the season while still scoring the most goals after Careca while other players did not perform well either. Napoli simply couldn't compensate it because they didn't have many options. Now look at the competition again, look at Sampdoria, Milan, Juve, Roma, Inter etc and all the players they had. Napoli lost to Sampdoria twice, the team who won the championship and they lost to Milan, Juve and Inter, so excatly the teams who had new stars and better teams overall. What players did Napoli even buy after the WC 90? Even Lazio had bought Riedle and Ruben Sosa, not saying Lazio was that great but they could afford it.



True. But look at the team they had a year later and the players performed a lot better too. They had some new players like Laurent Blanc and Padovano. Careca scored 15 goals (9 in the previous season) and Zola scored 11 goals (4 in the previous year). So Maradona always had an impact on Napoli. when he played well, the whole team did better, when he played bad they did too. You could argue and say after 6 years Napoli was too dependent on him before he left.



I never said he didn't play with good players, I actually admitted it. It's just that when when Maradona was missing a game in his best days, Napoli simply couldn't compensate him. When Gullit didn't play for Milan they still had 5 other stars to carry the team. In the 1990 season they finished 2nd with Gullit barely playing at all.



They also beat Bayern Munich and Stuttgart along the way to win the Cup. Yes Careca was great and from what I remember Maradona assisted him at least 4 goals in the semis and final, definitely 2 in the final if not 3 overall, I can't remember. He also scored against Juve I believe.

This is actually another stat that I have to look up, in all those years Maradona played against Milan, Juve and Inter he scored many goals, Out of my head I can recall at least him scoring 6 goals against Milan, 2 or 3 against Juve and another 2 against Inter but I would have to look it up. Not even counting the assists.



Right but keep in mind that Careca and Alemao didn't even play for Napoli when they won their 1st championship. Ferrara was the same age as Maldini and Bagni and Giordano were getting old as well, they were both 31.



If the players didn't perform well, that's one thing but it has nothing to do with the team's potential or being weak. True Gullit missed a lot, he was injured almost all season but Ancelllotti played 24 matches, Van Basten played 26, Rijkaard played 29 and Donadoni played 24 matches. Maradona played 28 games yet scored 16 goals.



He had the support he needed but it's 100% fair to say that without Maradona Napoi would have never won anything in the 80s and early 90s for the simple fact that no world class player ever wanted to play for Napoli. Careca came after Maradona had established the team on top. But no other player at his level aver played for Napoli before or after.



I agree.



We will never know. But I believe he couldn't. Messi's character doesn't fit for Napoli. IMO he wasn't tough enough mentally and also physically to play for that team and in that league back then. If at all he would have done better for Juve or Milan.

Man, I should focus more on tennis again. lol This is interesting though, it reminds me of many things of that time. ^^
Many of Maradonas goals were penalties. so his numbers of goals are inflated.
 
Top