No tennis player will have the epilogue of the true GOAT of GOATS Diego Maradona

Sudacafan

Talk Tennis Guru
bueno, viste hace poco que los pantalones de nostradamus son iguales en todas las direcciones:laughing:(el que es mas rapido es el mas grandioso;)), todo es simple, asi que continuando con esta divertida nota puedes tocar un poco y decir algo gracioso como lo que dije aqui, ciertamente soy un idiota decente , pero no lo suficiente como para tomar en serio lo dicho, espero que no lo haya pensado
I believe you’re trying to explain you were joking, and I think it would have taken less time for me to understand it if you wrote it in Russian :D.
 

Sudacafan

Talk Tennis Guru
Type of conversation involving Argentines traveling in the most remote parts of the world:
Local person: - Hello, sir. Where are you from?
Argentinian: - From Argentina
Local person: - Oh, Argentina? Maradona!!!
 

alexio

Hall of Fame
Everyone pales in comparison to the GOAT ;)

yea, self-made movie to make it clear for everyone and for himself who is the goat again.. don't get me wrong, i like them both pretty in equal measure (elv1s and michael), so they're on the same level as fed and nadal and both have great points in their favor to be considered the goat really..thus i wouldn't be so sure about michael to be the undisputed king of the whole thing:D
 

Tostao80

Rookie
Were you not watching the news? Maradona was pretty much main news everywhere for 2 days.
Only players close to Maradona would be Pele and Cristiano Ronaldo but Maradona clearly ahead of both those legends.
Brazil ronaldo a category down. Messi and ronaldinho hugely overrated. Messi was propped up by xavi and iniesta. Fact he had no international title with Argentina speaks volumes. Maradona dragged an average team to a world cup. Messi failed in an Argentine side packed with superstars for a decade.!
Cristiano lol. His one time coach and mentor Sir Alex Fergusson called Messi the GOAT, even as recently as 2018. Cristianos old team mates Rooney, Scholes and Rio all called Messi the GOAT. What do you make of that? Why would they prefer Leo over their boy?
 

alexio

Hall of Fame
Which nation do you favor overall in terms of the quality of football it produces?

Club level/int'l competition both fair game.

Who takes the game to the highest level?
at an int. level overall in last 100 years if to be considered it's brazil and germany, as a rule, probably italy also in the 2nd tier.. at club level by the way recently england is in 1st place, also spain and italy ended up the top 3
 
Maradona got away with a professional foul, but Armstrong devoted his whole career to doping. This is a whole different level.
Maradona has been also a convicted tax fraud (like the Nadal family, btw, who settled with the Spanish authorities), has a child outside of his relationship, there are alleged links to the Italian Mafia, and has supported authoritarian regimes to boot. THAT is another level.

:cool:
 
Maradona has been also a convicted tax fraud (like the Nadal family, btw, who settled with the Spanish authorities), has a child outside of his relationship, there are alleged links to the Italian Mafia, and has supported authoritarian regimes to boot. THAT is another level.

:cool:
That's what makes him a pimp
 

alexio

Hall of Fame
ну хорошо допустим ты ляпнул это всерьез про cheating.. тогда разбить эту позицию можно очень легко, привлекая сенну, но однако же сенна в ряду твоих кандидатов на номер 1 (ну или среди величайших), двойные стандарты тогда очевидны, ну или биас, ну или закрытие глаз на одно когда любимчик и открытие глаз на то же самое когда нелюбимчик, плюс сенна читерил поболее раз чем тот огромный нежданчик упавший на марадону в том матче, уверен сенна бы сделал б то же самое, не признал б это, окажись он в такой же ситуации, мерить нужно отдельно (котлеты от мух) чтобы объектично оценивать ситуацию, и никакой паршивый эпизод не может затмить/перевесить талантище, величие и уникальность спортсмена/игрока, и то что он делал на поле никто больше никогда не делал (только месси нечто подобное делал), и в случае марадоны представь себе что значит быть лучшим в истории в такой игре как футбол, самой популярной и великой игре в мире, это значит быть лучшим среди самой жесткой конкуренции среди всех спортов в мире, самое почетное и крутое одновременно это звание, самое трудно достижимое среди всех, и никакой федерер или надаль не сравнится с этим, потому что жалкий теннис или баскет или биатлон и рядом не стоял с футболом..единственная надежда то что ты ляпнул это не всерьез;) @AnOctorokForDinner
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
Are you serious? Maradona >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messi
Messi greater than Maradona is like saying Kureten is better on clay than Nadal.
Maradona is a legend, and one of the most iconic sportsmen of all time.

But I disagree with your assessment there, and there's overwhelming evidence you're wrong.
Messi's goals, and goals per game, is actually higher than Maradona for both club AND country:

Messi: Club- 447 goals in 493 games; Country- 71 goals in 142 games
Maradona: Club- 259 goals in 491 games; Country- 34 goals in 91 games

According to Wikipedia, Messi also has more assists and assists per game than Maradona, so he not only scored at a great rate, but assisted at a greater rate.
He has also won more trophies during his career. La Liga is a higher quality league than either Argentinian Domestic League or Serie A, which forms most of Maradona's club matches.

I guess the main argument for Maradona would be that he won the World Cup once while Messi didn't.
But we have to be very careful in using team achievements to judge a player, especially when the sample size is 1 tournament.

In WC final of 2014, Higuain had an absolute sitter, and if he had scored, Argentina likely would have won that final. Meanwhile, Maradona's World Cup win in 1986 had great controversy. They won the QF vs England 2-1. The hand of god was obvious. Even Maradona's second goal, which was a wonder goal, came after another Argentinian player fouled an English player so Maradona could get on the ball. So both goals would have been disallowed with higher officiating standards.
The idea that Argentina's CF missing a sitter, and the officiating not ruling out 2 goals that shouldn't have counted in 1986, should suddenly mean Messi's far superior statistics across his career gets overruled is absurd.
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
I have seen both Maradona and Messi.
Maradona better, without a shadow of doubt.
Like I said I don't follow football that closely and will defer to the die-hard fans for any technical or statistical comparison, but to me the idea that Messi belongs in the same league as Maradona and Pelé if not even higher is almost comical. For most of us casual fans the WC is where football legends are born, and Messi has been lackluster to say the least on the world's biggest stage. First off he can't even claim his rival Ronaldo's excuse of being stuck with a middling team, but it's really not the fact that he never led Argentina to victory but his lack of a standout performance which hurts him vs. not only the two GOATs but also Fontaine, Garrincha, Muller, Cruyff, Rossi, Beckenbauer, Zidane, the other Ronaldo, etc.

And yeah yeah CLs and all that, but no serious tennis fan would agree that a non-Slammer with whatever other record deserves to be ranked #1 in any given year and that's almost what we're looking at here. If one wants to put Messi over any of that latter group, fine, but over the co-players of the 20th century? I say that's stretching an already dubious logic well beyond its breaking point.

Yes but that would still make Michael Jackson 200 times bigger than Maradona, Madonna 150 times than Maradona and Whitney Houston 100 times than Maradona. For the record go check who has more Spotify listeners, or YouTube views or people singing their songs, you'd be surprised that Whitney Houston is ahead of Madonna. They're both legendary but completely different. Whitney has had so many documentaries about her and an upcoming biopic by the makers of Bohemian Rhapsody. She is one of the biggest pop stars ever. She's also the most covered artist on singing talent shows all over the world.

I'd still give the nod to Madonna but that's mainly because she wanted attention and controversy which automatically brings more fame. If Whitney wanted to show her breasts, burn a cross in her videos and do stuff like that, she would have destroyed Madonna's media attention in one day. But she's up there as one of the Top females both in success and fame simply by singing with no gimmicks. She built her legacy on her talent alone, not using sex to sell like 90% of women.

But my main point is that you can't compare music superstars to soccer players. Outside of the World Cup once every 4 years and fans of soccer, nobody cares that much about Maradona. Those legendary music artists are loved EVERY DAY all over the world, played over and over on the radio, watched millions of times every day on YouTube, etc. It's not comparable. Listening to music is part of daily life of almost everyone, watching soccer is not.
I was still living in (East) Asia when The Bodyguard came out in 1992, and I can tell you for a fact that the name "Whitney" wouldn't have rung a bell for me and most of my schoolmates until her soaring rendition of Dolly Parton's old hit became the worldwide smash that defined her career. Both Maradona and Pelé were household names well before then. And have you even checked to see how many football fans watch old Maradona clips every day?

Again you're not trying hard enough to look beyond your borders. We agree on sports vs. pop culture overall, but Whitney even at her absolute peak was no MJ or Madonna. Not even close, either in cultural impact or in artistic merit which will ultimately decide their legacy. Houston was at best a tremendously gifted vocalist who abandoned her gospel roots for pop schlock which she turned into commercial gold through one-of-a-kind pipes and charisma. And like others of its kind that gold will ultimately prove fraudulent - with the one exception courtesy of Dolly, yes, which somehow makes perfect sense as it's an unwieldy mixture of sincerity and self-delusion that she struggled to balance throughout her career. This one time her gospel influence won out, almost overpowering Dolly's fragile aria of resigned love which dimmer critics mistook for bombast but which in fact imbues the song with an additional layer of catharsis missing from the original. For that reason "I Will Always" will always be known as Houston's signature song even though she didn't write a word or note of it, and I do expect it to endure as long as Parton's own timeless classic "Jolene" which appeared on the same original album, but this version is in the end not one but two covers - one serving as a return to Houston's Black Baptist heritage and the other as a tribute to the country great whom she clearly wanted to do justice. No wonder she never came close to duplicating the stroke of serendipity.

Now I can already hear you saying, "But Madonna was never half the singer Whitney was." No, she wasn't, nor is she much of an instrumentalist. But she's had a hand in most of her best songs, which are among the most enduring pop confections ever written and span at least three decades: "Lucky Star," "Into the Groove," "Live to Tell," "Papa Don't Preach," "True Blue," "Open Your Heart," "La Isla Bonita," "Who's That Girl," "Like a Prayer," "Express Yourself," "Cherish," "Oh Father," "Dear Jessie," "Vogue," "This Used to Be My Playground," "Deeper and Deeper," "Rain," "I'll Remember," "Secret," "Take a Bow," "You'll See," "Frozen," "Ray of Light," "Drowned World/Substitute for Love," "The Power of Good-Bye," "Nothing Really Matters," "Music," "Don't Tell Me," "Hung Up," "Sorry," "Get Together," "Jump," "Celebration" and likely more to come. And that doesn't even include such first-rate singles as "Holiday," "Borderline," "Material Girl" and "Dress You Up" that she handed over to her collaborators early in her career.

Not even MJ boasts as extensive a parade of hits, and while Madge has never been a great lyricist and remains like Jackson a dance artist at heart "Like a Prayer" is among the most majestic of all art pop while "Live to Tell" finds her at her most searingly introspective. Add to that "Vogue," "Express Yourself" and other immortal dance anthems and a constant urge to reinvent oneself (which you typically dismiss as attention grabbing and nothing more) and you've got a pop royalty second only to Jackson since the Beatles. By contrast Whitney wasn't an auteur of any kind but more of a producer-editor who needed the right material and circumstances to strike gold. Not everyone can be an MJ or MDNA, and there's no shame in that.

That's exactly why your Whitney > Maradona popularity contest makes no sense at all. Remember that ****ty Gangman style song or whatever it was called? It reached like over 2 billion views or more on youtube yet I can't even name the artist because nobody cares about him and not many people will care if he passes away, as hard as it sounds. Now Michael Jackson is a different story because he was influential to almost everybody and he had a long career since the age of 8 maybe. Since he was one of the biggest stars ever in the history of entertainment and regualrly on TV and commercials during the 80s and 90s he obviously is on a different level than most artists. But the fact that football generates millions and millions of views all around the world weekly also means that many football players are amongst the most popular persons on the planet.

Btw, If you had any clue about football you would know that a World Cup final usually generates around 1 Billion people on TV screens! Guess what? Maradona has played 2 World Cup finals which means around 2 Billion people actually watched him playing LIVE for 180 minutes. Whitney is not even close to being in the same league to him, let alone MJ.
In postwar popular culture there's Michael Jackson and there's everyone else. Chaplin is probably the closest equivalent before the war, but like you said MJ was a child prodigy so he would've had a leg up even without the built-in media advantage of his era.

Also comparing these numbers is always a dicey business. By official counts even the most successful albums sell no more than 30-50 million copies, but that's only certified ownership figures and we know the number of people who've listened to the most popular singles from these records or viewed the MVs is far higher. Likewise the Game of Thrones finale might have attracted "only" 13.61 million viewers in the US, but there were millions more outside and the series is one of the most pirated ever. Hence the estimate of as high as 1 billion viewers worldwide, and assuming the number isn't too far off we're talking a global event on par with WC finals. And I'm guessing you already know that the 1 billion-ish WC estimate is for peak viewership, with an average of about half the total.

Still don't think Whitney is all that close to Maradona in worldwide fame and impact, but when you turn to a living legend like Paul McCartney the comparison gets rather more complicated, especially since everyone knows the other half of L&M is dead... and Paul then has to share some of the spotlight with Ringo! Does that mean PM would be entitled to only 1/4 of the Beatles' legacy? Far from it, but you can already see why these cross-field comparisons are so tricky.
 

toby55555

Hall of Fame
Like I said I don't follow football that closely and will defer to the die-hard fans for any technical or statistical comparison, but to me the idea that Messi belongs in the same league as Maradona and Pelé if not even higher is almost comical. For most of us casual fans the WC is where football legends are born, and Messi has been lackluster to say the least on the world's biggest stage. First off he can't even claim his rival Ronaldo's excuse of being stuck with a middling team, but it's really not the fact that he never led Argentina to victory but his lack of a standout performance which hurts him vs. not only the two GOATs but also Fontaine, Garrincha, Muller, Cruyff, Rossi, Beckenbauer, Zidane, the other Ronaldo, etc.

And yeah yeah CLs and all that, but no serious tennis fan would agree that a non-Slammer with whatever other record deserves to be ranked #1 in any given year and that's almost what we're looking at here. If one wants to put Messi over any of that latter group, fine, but over the co-players of the 20th century? I say that's stretching an already dubious logic well beyond its breaking point.



I was still living in (East) Asia when The Bodyguard came out in 1992, and I can tell you for a fact that the name "Whitney" wouldn't have rung a bell for me and most of my schoolmates until her soaring rendition of Dolly Parton's old hit became the worldwide smash that defined her career. Both Maradona and Pelé were household names well before then. And have you even checked to see how many football fans watch old Maradona clips every day?

Again you're not trying hard enough to look beyond your borders. We agree on sports vs. pop culture overall, but Whitney even at her absolute peak was no MJ or Madonna. Not even close, either in cultural impact or in artistic merit which will ultimately decide their legacy. Houston was at best a tremendously gifted vocalist who abandoned her gospel roots for pop schlock which she turned into commercial gold through one-of-a-kind pipes and charisma. And like others of its kind that gold will ultimately prove fraudulent - with the one exception courtesy of Dolly, yes, which somehow makes perfect sense as it's an unwieldy mixture of sincerity and self-delusion that she struggled to balance throughout her career. This one time her gospel influence won out, almost overpowering Dolly's fragile aria of resigned love which dimmer critics mistook for bombast but which in fact imbues the song with an additional layer of catharsis missing from the original. For that reason "I Will Always" will always be known as Houston's signature song even though she didn't write a word or note of it, and I do expect it to endure as long as Parton's own timeless classic "Jolene" which appeared on the same original album, but this version is in the end not one but two covers - one serving as a return to Houston's Black Baptist heritage and the other as a tribute to the country great whom she clearly wanted to do justice. No wonder she never came close to duplicating the stroke of serendipity.

Now I can already hear you saying, "But Madonna was never half the singer Whitney was." No, she wasn't, nor is she much of an instrumentalist. But she's had a hand in most of her best songs, which are among the most enduring pop confections ever written and span at least three decades: "Lucky Star," "Into the Groove," "Live to Tell," "Papa Don't Preach," "True Blue," "Open Your Heart," "La Isla Bonita," "Who's That Girl," "Like a Prayer," "Express Yourself," "Cherish," "Oh Father," "Dear Jessie," "Vogue," "This Used to Be My Playground," "Deeper and Deeper," "Rain," "I'll Remember," "Secret," "Take a Bow," "You'll See," "Frozen," "Ray of Light," "Drowned World/Substitute for Love," "The Power of Good-Bye," "Nothing Really Matters," "Music," "Don't Tell Me," "Hung Up," "Sorry," "Get Together," "Jump," "Celebration" and likely more to come. And that doesn't even include such first-rate singles as "Holiday," "Borderline," "Material Girl" and "Dress You Up" that she handed over to her collaborators early in her career.

Not even MJ boasts as extensive a parade of hits, and while Madge has never been a great lyricist and remains like Jackson a dance artist at heart "Like a Prayer" is among the most majestic of all art pop while "Live to Tell" finds her at her most searingly introspective. Add to that "Vogue," "Express Yourself" and other immortal dance anthems and a constant urge to reinvent oneself (which you typically dismiss as attention grabbing and nothing more) and you've got a pop royalty second only to Jackson since the Beatles. By contrast Whitney wasn't an auteur of any kind but more of a producer-editor who needed the right material and circumstances to strike gold. Not everyone can be an MJ or MDNA, and there's no shame in that.



In postwar popular culture there's Michael Jackson and there's everyone else. Chaplin is probably the closest equivalent before the war, but like you said MJ was a child prodigy so he would've had a leg up even without the built-in media advantage of his era.

Also comparing these numbers is always a dicey business. By official counts even the most successful albums sell no more than 30-50 million copies, but that's only certified ownership figures and we know the number of people who've listened to the most popular singles from these records or viewed the MVs is far higher. Likewise the Game of Thrones finale might have attracted "only" 13.61 million viewers in the US, but there were millions more outside and the series is one of the most pirated ever. Hence the estimate of as high as 1 billion viewers worldwide, and assuming the number isn't too far off we're talking a global event on par with WC finals. And I'm guessing you already know that the 1 billion-ish WC estimate is for peak viewership, with an average of about half the total.

Still don't think Whitney is all that close to Maradona in worldwide fame and impact, but when you turn to a living legend like Paul McCartney the comparison gets rather more complicated, especially since everyone knows the other half of L&M is dead... and Paul then has to share some of the spotlight with Ringo! Does that mean PM would be entitled to only 1/4 of the Beatles' legacy? Far from it, but you can already see why these cross-field comparisons are so tricky.
It's all about club football for most supporters (as opposed to just fans who never even go to matches).
 

USO

Banned
Like I said I don't follow football that closely and will defer to the die-hard fans for any technical or statistical comparison, but to me the idea that Messi belongs in the same league as Maradona and Pelé if not even higher is almost comical. For most of us casual fans the WC is where football legends are born, and Messi has been lackluster to say the least on the world's biggest stage. First off he can't even claim his rival Ronaldo's excuse of being stuck with a middling team, but it's really not the fact that he never led Argentina to victory but his lack of a standout performance which hurts him vs. not only the two GOATs but also Fontaine, Garrincha, Muller, Cruyff, Rossi, Beckenbauer, Zidane, the other Ronaldo, etc.

And yeah yeah CLs and all that, but no serious tennis fan would agree that a non-Slammer with whatever other record deserves to be ranked #1 in any given year and that's almost what we're looking at here. If one wants to put Messi over any of that latter group, fine, but over the co-players of the 20th century? I say that's stretching an already dubious logic well beyond its breaking point.



I was still living in (East) Asia when The Bodyguard came out in 1992, and I can tell you for a fact that the name "Whitney" wouldn't have rung a bell for me and most of my schoolmates until her soaring rendition of Dolly Parton's old hit became the worldwide smash that defined her career. Both Maradona and Pelé were household names well before then. And have you even checked to see how many football fans watch old Maradona clips every day?

Again you're not trying hard enough to look beyond your borders. We agree on sports vs. pop culture overall, but Whitney even at her absolute peak was no MJ or Madonna. Not even close, either in cultural impact or in artistic merit which will ultimately decide their legacy. Houston was at best a tremendously gifted vocalist who abandoned her gospel roots for pop schlock which she turned into commercial gold through one-of-a-kind pipes and charisma. And like others of its kind that gold will ultimately prove fraudulent - with the one exception courtesy of Dolly, yes, which somehow makes perfect sense as it's an unwieldy mixture of sincerity and self-delusion that she struggled to balance throughout her career. This one time her gospel influence won out, almost overpowering Dolly's fragile aria of resigned love which dimmer critics mistook for bombast but which in fact imbues the song with an additional layer of catharsis missing from the original. For that reason "I Will Always" will always be known as Houston's signature song even though she didn't write a word or note of it, and I do expect it to endure as long as Parton's own timeless classic "Jolene" which appeared on the same original album, but this version is in the end not one but two covers - one serving as a return to Houston's Black Baptist heritage and the other as a tribute to the country great whom she clearly wanted to do justice. No wonder she never came close to duplicating the stroke of serendipity.

Now I can already hear you saying, "But Madonna was never half the singer Whitney was." No, she wasn't, nor is she much of an instrumentalist. But she's had a hand in most of her best songs, which are among the most enduring pop confections ever written and span at least three decades: "Lucky Star," "Into the Groove," "Live to Tell," "Papa Don't Preach," "True Blue," "Open Your Heart," "La Isla Bonita," "Who's That Girl," "Like a Prayer," "Express Yourself," "Cherish," "Oh Father," "Dear Jessie," "Vogue," "This Used to Be My Playground," "Deeper and Deeper," "Rain," "I'll Remember," "Secret," "Take a Bow," "You'll See," "Frozen," "Ray of Light," "Drowned World/Substitute for Love," "The Power of Good-Bye," "Nothing Really Matters," "Music," "Don't Tell Me," "Hung Up," "Sorry," "Get Together," "Jump," "Celebration" and likely more to come. And that doesn't even include such first-rate singles as "Holiday," "Borderline," "Material Girl" and "Dress You Up" that she handed over to her collaborators early in her career.

Not even MJ boasts as extensive a parade of hits, and while Madge has never been a great lyricist and remains like Jackson a dance artist at heart "Like a Prayer" is among the most majestic of all art pop while "Live to Tell" finds her at her most searingly introspective. Add to that "Vogue," "Express Yourself" and other immortal dance anthems and a constant urge to reinvent oneself (which you typically dismiss as attention grabbing and nothing more) and you've got a pop royalty second only to Jackson since the Beatles. By contrast Whitney wasn't an auteur of any kind but more of a producer-editor who needed the right material and circumstances to strike gold. Not everyone can be an MJ or MDNA, and there's no shame in that.



In postwar popular culture there's Michael Jackson and there's everyone else. Chaplin is probably the closest equivalent before the war, but like you said MJ was a child prodigy so he would've had a leg up even without the built-in media advantage of his era.

Also comparing these numbers is always a dicey business. By official counts even the most successful albums sell no more than 30-50 million copies, but that's only certified ownership figures and we know the number of people who've listened to the most popular singles from these records or viewed the MVs is far higher. Likewise the Game of Thrones finale might have attracted "only" 13.61 million viewers in the US, but there were millions more outside and the series is one of the most pirated ever. Hence the estimate of as high as 1 billion viewers worldwide, and assuming the number isn't too far off we're talking a global event on par with WC finals. And I'm guessing you already know that the 1 billion-ish WC estimate is for peak viewership, with an average of about half the total.

Still don't think Whitney is all that close to Maradona in worldwide fame and impact, but when you turn to a living legend like Paul McCartney the comparison gets rather more complicated, especially since everyone knows the other half of L&M is dead... and Paul then has to share some of the spotlight with Ringo! Does that mean PM would be entitled to only 1/4 of the Beatles' legacy? Far from it, but you can already see why these cross-field comparisons are so tricky.
I will not start listing all of Whitney Houston's accomplishments, status and respect in the music industry and recognition worldwide because it would take forever and I don't want to hijack this thread, but Madonna is not even in the top 1000 artists of all-time in terms of "talent" as a singer or producer. She is average at best so stop making her as if she is some genius musician. :-D If she didn't use controversy, media manipulation and sex to sell, she would have gone nowhere based on her talent alone. She's average at best in everything she does, a comparable artist in genre like Lady Gaga is 100 times more talented than Madonna.
 
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NonP

Hall of Fame
It's all about club football for most supporters (as opposed to just fans who never even go to matches).
And I say they're wrong. The WC is considered the biggest football event for a reason.

I will not start listing all of Whitney Houston's accomplishments, status in the music industry and recognition worldwide because it would take forever and I don't want to hijack this thread, but Madonna is not even in the top 1000 artists of all-time in terms of "talent" as a singer or producer. She is average at best so stop making her as if she is some genius musician. :-D If she didn't use controversy, media manipulation and sex to sell, she would have gone nowhere based on her talent alone. She's average at best in everything she does, a comparable artist in genre like Lady Gaga is 100 times more talented than Madonna.
Your taste leaves a lot to be desired. I'll just add Gaga is indeed one hell of a talent and I was expecting her to surpass Madge at the end of their careers as recently as 1-2 years ago, but her work hasn't been up to par since then.
 
He has also won more trophies during his career. La Liga is a higher quality league than either Argentinian Domestic League or Serie A, which forms most of Maradona's club matches.
^

Here is why statistics are useless, when you don't know what you are talking about.

Do you even know who Maradona played for in Italy? That is like him playing for Getafe in Spain, and saying, "oh, yeah" he didn't win much, and the quality is bla bla .....

Oh, and, BTW, Argentina was a dominant football nation when Maradona was playing there, with the WC winning squads playing almost exclusively in Argentina, and Argentinian clubs sweeping Copa Libertadores in 1968, 69, 70, 72, 73, 74, 75, 77, 78, 84, 85, and 86.

:cool:
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
Maradona has been also a convicted tax fraud (like the Nadal family, btw, who settled with the Spanish authorities), has a child outside of his relationship, there are alleged links to the Italian Mafia, and has supported authoritarian regimes to boot. THAT is another level.

:cool:
You are cheating TTW readers. You are lying about Rafa & his family (!), as usual.
Rafa didn't hide anything, just headquarters of his firms were in the Basque autonomous community (in Spain). Spain's authorities demanded to move the headquarters to the autonomous community of the Balearic Islands.
 
You are cheating TTW readers. You are lying about Rafa & his family (!), as usual.
Rafa didn't hide anything, just headquarters of his firms were in the Basque autonomous community (in Spain). Spain's authorities demanded to move the headquarters to the autonomous community of the Balearic Islands.
Why were they in the Basque autonomous community?

:cool:
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
^

Here is why statistics are useless, when you don't know what you are talking about.

Do you even know who Maradona played for in Italy? That is like him playing for Getafe in Spain, and saying, "oh, yeah" he didn't win much, and the quality is bla bla .....

Oh, and, BTW, Argentina was a dominant football nation when Maradona was playing there, with the WC winning squads playing almost exclusively in Argentina, and Argentinian clubs sweeping Copa Libertadores in 1968, 69, 70, 72, 73, 74, 75, 77, 78, 84, 85, and 86.

:cool:
Napoli are not like Getafe in Spain. They brought in Maradona on a world record transfer fee, and bought other stars too. I don't think Getafe now would be able to break the world record transfer fee lol.

Statistics are useful. Messi had not only more goals, but more assists. So he scored more, and created more for his team mates.
 

alexio

Hall of Fame
Naturally we had to have a football GOAT blyatfight on TTW.

Never change TTW

Never stop cheating the readers
who's your football goat, red...i'm sure you know way much about this wonderful game than many other posters in this thread:D
 

alexio

Hall of Fame
The real question is if Maradona didn't score a goal with his hand and the referee didn't see it, would he have been as legendary? It's sad that a cheating moment is his most famous iconic goal.
of course he would, lol ..is this a real question for you?ha
 
Napoli are not like Getafe in Spain. They brought in Maradona on a world record transfer fee, and bought other stars too. I don't think Getafe now would be able to break the world record transfer fee lol.

Statistics are useful. Messi had not only more goals, but more assists. So he scored more, and created more for his team mates.
Before Maradona Napoli had literally one major trophy (of international recognition at least). On par with Getafe being twice runner up in the respective competition in Spain. Their biggest "success" was their huge fanbase, which allowed them to make such a transfer (it is also said that the Italian Mafia had a say in that).

:cool:
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
who's your football goat, red...i'm sure you know way much about this wonderful game than many other posters in this thread:D
I honestly watch the arguments more than I care about it myself cause mental gymnastics can be hilarious. Overall I'd probably say CR7 and Messi are pretty equal for me, with Messi being more technically gifted and CR7 being a far better leader of his team on the pitch.

That said, I haven't really looked at stats closely, nor have I looked at the careers of candidates from way back etc, but football has this huge emphasis on World Cups even in terms of legacy which is so variance/luck based/stochastic that it's ridiculous. Also there's a huge bias towards attackers/strikers, but overall they probably do make the biggest differences in a team generally.

IMO Messi is the only athlete I've seen with a bigger personality cult than Serena Williams and Roger Federer. But then I don't follow basketball enough to suffer from LeBron mania and all that ****e.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
Before Maradona Napoli had literally one major trophy (of international recognition at least). On par with Getafe being twice runner up in the respective competition in Spain. Their biggest "success" was their huge fanbase, which allowed them to make such a transfer (it is also said that the Italian Mafia had a say in that).

:cool:
Right, but if you're small club but then raise finances to sign a few stars, the fact you don't have a good history is not that relevant.
Chelsea and City were small clubs without a history, but then signed stars and were successful.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
Maradona is a legend, and one of the most iconic sportsmen of all time.

But I disagree with your assessment there, and there's overwhelming evidence you're wrong.
Messi's goals, and goals per game, is actually higher than Maradona for both club AND country:

Messi: Club- 447 goals in 493 games; Country- 71 goals in 142 games
Maradona: Club- 259 goals in 491 games; Country- 34 goals in 91 games

According to Wikipedia, Messi also has more assists and assists per game than Maradona, so he not only scored at a great rate, but assisted at a greater rate.
He has also won more trophies during his career. La Liga is a higher quality league than either Argentinian Domestic League or Serie A, which forms most of Maradona's club matches.

I guess the main argument for Maradona would be that he won the World Cup once while Messi didn't.
But we have to be very careful in using team achievements to judge a player, especially when the sample size is 1 tournament.

In WC final of 2014, Higuain had an absolute sitter, and if he had scored, Argentina likely would have won that final. Meanwhile, Maradona's World Cup win in 1986 had great controversy. They won the QF vs England 2-1. The hand of god was obvious. Even Maradona's second goal, which was a wonder goal, came after another Argentinian player fouled an English player so Maradona could get on the ball. So both goals would have been disallowed with higher officiating standards.
The idea that Argentina's CF missing a sitter, and the officiating not ruling out 2 goals that shouldn't have counted in 1986, should suddenly mean Messi's far superior statistics across his career gets overruled is absurd.
@Tennis_Hands ^
 
Right, but if you're small club but then raise finances to sign a few stars, the fact you don't have a good history is not that relevant.
Chelsea and City were small clubs without a history, but then signed stars and were successful.
We were talking about the standing of the club before it acquired Maradona. That is the point, Maradona had to lift up the whole club with his game to overcome relative mediocrity. Hardly an objective measuring stick when his opponent in the comparison has literally lived his whole football life in one of the greatest football clubs in the world. The different standard is not even funny.

:cool:
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
We were talking about the standing of the club before it acquired Maradona. That is the point, Maradona had to lift up the whole club with his game to overcome relative mediocrity. Hardly an objective measuring stick when his opponent in the comparison has literally lived his whole football life in one of the greatest football clubs in the world. The different standard is not even funny.

:cool:
Hmm, but in the 2 seasons Maradona was at Barcelona, he didn't win La Liga once. Serie A is lower standard than La Liga in general.
But yeah, it will be interesting to see how Messi does if he transfers to another team next season.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Hmm, but in the 2 seasons Maradona was at Barcelona, he didn't win La Liga once. Serie A is lower standard than La Liga in general.
But yeah, it will be interesting to see how Messi does if he transfers to another team next season.
Maradona vs Messi is such a dumb debate.

Football wise, it's Messi by a country mile, but he didn't win the WC cause he couldn't cheat as hard as Maradona and because Higuain.

I'll give Maradona the bigger personality. But that's not much of a challenge.
 
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