No tennis player will have the epilogue of the true GOAT of GOATS Diego Maradona

Ducky Lucky

New User
I don't know if I agree he is the GOAT of GOATs (Jordan, Ali, Phelps, Bolt) but yes, I agree no tennis player will ever receive this level of adulation because while Rafa, Novak and Roger are rock stars in their respective countries it's nothing like what Maradona is in Argentina. The closest I can think of is Tendulkar in India...
Have to agree, Senna in Brazil is also comparable. I think it depends on the country. Brazil, Argentina, India are all poor countries where a lot of people lead difficult lives. Maradona etc gives them joy, hope and gives the country's image a positive boost. That's why they are so loved. In tennis I would guess Novak comes the closest to that level of adulation.
 
So you criticised me for something you acknowledge now that you did; namely, introduce extraneous material to a football discussion.

Thank you!
Hahahaha.

I "criticised" YOU? I gave context to the ethics attached to each of the names in question. That you thought that that is about YOU speaks volumes about how deep down the rabbit hole you have fallen, my dear. The reason is also clear, you are out of your skin when someone sees through you, so you feel extra exposed every time that someone talks to you. Don't worry, I will keep it a secret.

:cool:
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Zidane is better, but there is no limitation as to how many players from one nation should be there. Platini is on the same level as Cruyff, IMO.

:cool:
Re: the bit in bold, of course. I have 3 Argentinians in my top 4!

Don't agree that Platini is up there with Cruyff. He can't match the master of Total Football.
 

alexio

Hall of Fame
Sure it should not be the decisive factor but Peles achievements/performances at WC level completely dwarf Messi’s - cannot say the same about Maradona. Pelé also had great results on club level with 10 Paulistas, 5 Taca Brasils, 2 Libertadores and 2 Intercontinentals. I would therefore put Pelé ahead of Diego at No.1.
ok, let's agree to disagree here;)
 

Nole_King

Professional
only if you're from united states lol
I worked in US for 3 years and god those were the most frog in the well kind of people i ever worked with. Picture this - a cashier @ Macy's cudn't understand what an asian guy was asking for because the guy pronounced the "P" in receipt .... she even confused it with recipe :-D
 

Nole_King

Professional
Have to agree, Senna in Brazil is also comparable. I think it depends on the country. Brazil, Argentina, India are all poor countries where a lot of people lead difficult lives. Maradona etc gives them joy, hope and gives the country's image a positive boost. That's why they are so loved. In tennis I would guess Novak comes the closest to that level of adulation.

You add India to any statistics and you are effectively including 25% of world population. Regarding the bolded part, I have quite a few Indian colleagues at my work and going by them, Novak is way behind Fedal in terms of popularity in India.
 
Re: the bit in bold, of course. I have 3 Argentinians in my top 4!

Don't agree that Platini is up there with Cruyff. He can't match the master of Total Football.
Rinus Michels brought the total football to Ajax, and total football was total for a reason. He had quite the backing of players like Neeskens, Krol, Haan etc

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Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Have to agree, Senna in Brazil is also comparable. I think it depends on the country. Brazil, Argentina, India are all poor countries where a lot of people lead difficult lives. Maradona etc gives them joy, hope and gives the country's image a positive boost. That's why they are so loved. In tennis I would guess Novak comes the closest to that level of adulation.
Massive LOL - Novak Djokovic is one of the more hated of the top tennis players. No way he is adored to the extent that Maradona, Senna etc. are / were.
 

alexio

Hall of Fame
I worked in US for 3 years and god those were the most frog in the well kind of people i ever worked with. Picture this - a cashier @ Macy's cudn't understand what an asian guy was asking for because the guy pronounced the "P" in receipt .... she even confused it with recipe :-D
:laughing:
 

Ducky Lucky

New User
You add India to any statistics and you are effectively including 25% of world population. Regarding the bolded part, I have quite a few Indian colleagues at my work and going by them, Novak is way behind Fedal in terms of popularity in India.
Sorry I wasn't clear in my post. My impression is that Novak is more revered in Serbia than Fedal in Switzerland/Spain. I have no idea how popular these guys are in India.
 
Flip-flopper! It's not about ethics, as you finally now acknowledge.
You don't understand the difference between making a top 10 football players list based on football skills, and qualifying a category of athletes for their questionable ethics! Last time I checked Lance Armstrong has not competed in any professional football matches, so your bizarre whining is getting hilarious.

Like I said, get a grip! Your cheap attempts at clawing back to the surface are endearing, but ultimately fruitless.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
More flip-flopping. You mentioned Armstrong, not me. Consistency is the basis of argument. You possess none.

You don't understand the difference between making a top 10 football players list based on football skills, and qualifying a category of athletes for their questionable ethics! Last time I checked Lance Armstrong has not competed in any professional football matches, so your ...
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
IMO Messi is the only athlete I've seen with a bigger personality cult than Serena Williams and Roger Federer. But then I don't follow basketball enough to suffer from LeBron mania and all that ****e.
Just noticed this. "[P]ersonality cult" may be too strong a term but in basketball it's Jordan's by a mile. Not sure if you've seen the guy's Hall of Fame "speech," but that was almost certainly the nastiest, pettiest self-aggrandizement from anyone in any public forum. Everybody is bending over backwards to kiss his ass and consecrate him as the game's nonpareil champion and ambassador, and yet the guy still can't help settling one old score after another which he'd clearly been harboring ever since each of these real and perceived slights (mostly the latter) from way back.

So journo Adrian Wojnarowski (who FYI is something of a basketball Bud Collins with unmatched access to the latest NBA news and rumors), among others, writes a perfectly suitable column denouncing the sad spectacle for what it was, and the response was as predictable as one would expect - more than half the comments seemed to come from the how-dare-you-badmouth-God or at least c'mon-it-ain't-all-that-bad! camps. Maybe the LeBron, Fed or Serena posse would be just as protective of their hero under similar circumstances, but that's almost moot speculation 'cause I can't imagine any other athlete pulling and getting away with such a carefully planned demonstration of egomania.

And the guy still hasn't let go of his grudges. Of course that hardly mattered 'cause what better way to get through the lockdown than watching the GOAT and his supporting cast work their magic again? And ESPN/Disney reaped the rewards they sorely needed in the absence of live sports. Everyone's happy, and the Jordan brand lives to tell another tale of self-glorification down the road.

Messi tends to freeze when it’s life or death.
Maradona cherished those scenarios.
A very good way to put it, yes.

I don't know if I agree he is the GOAT of GOATs (Jordan, Ali, Phelps, Bolt) but yes, I agree no tennis player will ever receive this level of adulation because while Rafa, Novak and Roger are rock stars in their respective countries it's nothing like what Maradona is in Argentina. The closest I can think of is Tendulkar in India...
Bolt is the greatest sprinter ever by far, but if we're talking the whole T&F Lewis is up there with him. I'll quote me-self from earlier this year:

Just saw this thread and gave it a skim only. I'll just add that inter-sports comparisons like this are inherently silly and, as something of a contradiction, that I'll put Carl Lewis' Olympic dominance in the long jump (along with the rest of his golden resume!) up there with Bolt's in the 100m/200m. As someone has already pointed out the 100m/200m two-peat is a relatively common feat in T&F compared to its rarer 200m/400m counterpart (which makes Michael Johnson's near consecutive 2-peats even more remarkable), not to mention that Bolt, unlike his illustrious predecessors in Owens and Lewis, never gave the long jump a go to begin with. And get this: before or after Lewis nobody, not even Beamon (alas Owens did not get a chance to repeat in '40 and '44), ever won the Olympic long jump twice, let alone a mind-boggling four times in a row, while both the 100m (yes I know Lewis' '88 gold is a bit iffy) and the 400m had seen repeat champs before Bolt. In my book Lewis, Phelps and Bolt are co-Olympic GOATs, each with a unique set of achievements that set them apart from the rest.
P.S. Paavo Nurmi misses out if only by virtue of his excelling in niche or discontinued long-distance events. Ditto Larisa Latynina as gymnastics doesn't quite have the same cultural cachet as sprinting or even swimming (in my experience, at any rate).
 
More flip-flopping. You mentioned Armstrong, not me. Consistency is the basis of argument. You possess none.
I mentioned Armstrong BECAUSE I was making the argument for the group of players with questionable ethics. It was never intended to disqualify anyone from being compared for his actual skills as an athlete. Like I said, if it were so, that would have meant that the same applies for Maradona, and I never excluded him from the top tier football players. I challenge you to find where I did such a thing. If you can't do that, you admit that you got confused and move on.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
You may try to back yourself out of a corner, but it's time to move on.

I mentioned Armstrong BECAUSE I was making the argument for the group of players with questionable ethics. It was never intended to disqualify anyone from being compared for his actual skills as an athlete.
 

USO

Banned
Sorry to say but you probably know nothing outside of your home. Maradona is a legend wherever I have traveled. And trust me thats multiple continents. There are places outside of Argentina and Italy where they know more about Maradona than soccer itself.
Yeah cause you go around asking random people on the street in all countries about Maradona. :-D And wow they know more about Maradona than soccer itself. :-D I expect such nonsense from Djokovic himself not from his fans. 8-B
 
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NonP

Hall of Fame
Honestly think Lance Armstrong was bigger than Usain Bolt.
Before the scandal really broke? Maybe in Europe but not here in the US, I think. Among the general US population the Tour de France was a thing only during Armstrong's run. I personally don't remember ever discussing it with any of my buds except with respect to the guy.

Besides there's just something cool about being the fastest human on the planet. A TdF championship doesn't quite tickle the public imagination like an Olympic gold in the (men's) 100m.
 

Poisoned Slice

Bionic Poster
Baggio gets a mention for all the romantics out there. :p

But yeah, thinking back to the 1994 world cup. The first world cup I can really remember fully. He was the superstar of that tournament but tragic end with a penalty miss.
 
Messi can't be placed ahead of Maradona or Pele without a World Cup win.
That criterion never made complete sense to me.

Only on offer every four years, first and foremost.

But there's such an astonishing number of variables at play in a team sport that go well beyond the control of an individual. Nice accolade, sure. But it doesn't seem fair to make this a black mark against a given player. One guy can't beat 11 (except on that one incredible run by the teenage Messi, lol).
 
Baggio gets a mention for all the romantics out there. :p

But yeah, thinking back to the 1994 world cup. The first world cup I can really remember fully. He was the superstar of that tournament but tragic end with a penalty miss.
No top ten position, naturally, but he was indeed one of the stars of the tournament, and a charismatic player to boot. One of the few who completed the treble of the grand Italian clubs. His place in the legendary attacking formation with Ravanelli and Viali was later inherited by another similar player Del Piero, a legend in his own right.

:cool:
 
That criterion never made complete sense to me.

Only on offer every four years, first and foremost.

But there's such an astonishing number of variables at play in a team sport that go well beyond the control of an individual. Nice accolade, sure. But it doesn't seem fair to make this a black mark against a given player. One guy can't beat 11 (except on that one incredible run by the teenage Messi, lol).
There are also the continental cups. So players have every other 2 years a chance of international glory. They gave Messi an extra one in 2016 but he went Missi again.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
You know, the topic is actually something along the lines of: "Tennis cannot produce cultural icons like football did with Maradona"

This is an interesting enough topic, but it certainly is not one that involves discussing 'the best footballers of all time.' That's irrelevant!

The pun worked well because it was not a football pun. You missed the point as usual.

Maradona was not successful in his last WC ...
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
But Biaggio became a cultural icon because he missed. Such an operatic gesture!

No top ten position, naturally, but he was indeed one of the stars of the tournament, and a charismatic player to boot. One of the few who completed the treble of the grand Italian clubs. His place in the legendary attacking formation with Ravanelli and Viali was later inherited by another similar player Del Piero, a legend in his own right.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
That criterion never made complete sense to me.

Only on offer every four years, first and foremost.

But there's such an astonishing number of variables at play in a team sport that go well beyond the control of an individual. Nice accolade, sure. But it doesn't seem fair to make this a black mark against a given player. One guy can't beat 11 (except on that one incredible run by the teenage Messi, lol).
Firstly, if you're playing for a nation which never has any chance to win the World Cup, then of course you shouldn't be judged on this basis (i.e. my inclusion of George Best in the top 10).

However, if you're playing for a major nation, and want to be considered the GOAT of the game, then in my opinion you do have to lift the trophy, preferably while dominating the tournament. It might only occur every four years, but it's long been considered the pinnacle of the sport (I do accept that in recent decades, the club game / Champions League has grown in its relative importance vs. the World Cup). It's a similar argument to the Olympics - only held once every four years, but it's the place where legends are made or broken.

I think a direct comparison between Maradona and Messi is instructive here: both played in middling Argentina teams, but whereas Maradona almost single-handedly (pun intended) drove his team to the title in 1986 - scoring wonder goals against both England and Belgium, plus setting up the winner in the final - Messi was distinctly average in 2014. He was far from inspirational in Argentina's run to the final, and was effectively cancelled out by the German defence in that game.

Of course, Messi's stats at club level are almost incomparable (although Di Stefano does still have one more EC/CL title than him), and his consistency at the very top level is perhaps unparalleled - certainly not matched by Maradona, although it may have been by Pele. However, to claim that he's the football GOAT when he can go missing in his nation's biggest game in a generation is something which simply doesn't wash with me.
 

JasonZ

Professional
Their defence was Zabaleta, Demichelis, Garay, and Rojo.

That's absolutely awful. Unbelievable that's even an International defence of any nation.
garay was one of the best defenders in wc 2014, very underrated.

how is this defense awful if they conceded only one goal in 4 ko games, in extra time of the final? it was very hard for their opponents to even create chances.

they lost because their strikers, including messi, failed.
 
You know, the topic is actually something along the lines of: "Tennis cannot produce cultural icons like football did with Maradona"

This is an interesting enough topic, but it certainly is not one that involves discussing 'the best footballers of all time.' That's irrelevant!

The pun worked well because it was not a football pun. You missed the point as usual.
The topic has gone places and the last at least 2-3 pages it has been exclusively about that classification, so you are not following what is being discussed.

You didn't get my reaction which was to stop you from developing a political discussion, by using your attempt to point at the irony of the comment applied to the actual reality of Maradona's last days as a player. You see, I am not interested in YOU, so your shenanigans don't make any impression. Going back to my previous comment, you have constructed your own prison and are commenting from there.

:cool:
 
Firstly, if you're playing for a nation which never has any chance to win the World Cup, then of course you shouldn't be judged on this basis (i.e. my inclusion of George Best in the top 10).

However, if you're playing for a major nation, and want to be considered the GOAT of the game, then in my opinion you do have to lift the trophy, preferably while dominating the tournament. It might only occur every four years, but it's long been considered the pinnacle of the sport (I do accept that in recent decades, the club game / Champions League has grown in its relative importance vs. the World Cup). It's a similar argument to the Olympics - only held once every four years, but it's the place where legends are made or broken.

I think a direct comparison between Maradona and Messi is instructive here: both played in middling Argentina teams, but whereas Maradona almost single-handedly (pun intended) drove his team to the title in 1986 - scoring wonder goals against both England and Belgium, plus setting up the winner in the final - Messi was distinctly average in 2014. He was far from inspirational in Argentina's run to the final, and was effectively cancelled out by the German defence in that game.

Of course, Messi's stats at club level are almost incomparable (although Di Stefano does still have one more EC/CL title than him), and his consistency at the very top level is perhaps unparalleled - certainly not matched by Maradona, although it may have been by Pele. However, to claim that he's the football GOAT when he can go missing in his nation's biggest game in a generation is something which simply doesn't wash with me.
I take your points, and respect the way you've made them.

While maintaining my position that an individual on an 11-man squad can't be held directly accountable for the entire team's failures, I'll add one thought for your consideration:

Perhaps—I am not taking this position definitively here, merely suggesting—the coordinated defensive efforts to stifle him speak to the level of player for which they were designed.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
Only if you think that England would have won that game without the Hand of God. An unlikely event (and I'm saying this as an Englishman).
Maradona's wonder goal should have also been disallowed as there was a foul by an Argentinian right before Maradona got on the ball.
Not saying Maradona wasn't great, just think it's silly that we allow one tournament win that was mainly due to cheating and referring errors, overrule all the overwhelming data and statistics that show Messi as greater.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
yes, that is true. still maradonas performabce was million times better than anything messi produced in the ko stages of all world cups he played.
I agree Messi hasn't played well in world cups. I also think Argentina are really bad in comparison to their rivals. The 3 most recent winners: Spain, Germany, France had a MILES better team than Argentina.
Also, and this is a bit subjective, but do you watch Messi play? Even today he not only scored, but delivered a ridiculously good long range pass that resulted in a Barca goal. I think there are more examples of Messi dribbling past the whole team and scoring than any other player. My point being, he doesn't rely much on his team mates to score goals. He's not a guy who stat pads by scoring tap ins.
Maradona was similar in his ability to score out of nothing, but imo you can't just ignore the statistics. If you look at the data, it really isn't close.
 

HitMoreBHs

Semi-Pro
Sporting achievement, like life, is not a zero sum game. GOAT debates within one sport are senseless enough. And now, we are to carry that debate across different disciplines and then extend it into the entertainment industry as well?
Have at it, chaps. I'm going off to play.

PS: Not even close. For the GOAT of all GOATs, this is the guy you want:

 
I agree Messi hasn't played well in world cups. I also think Argentina are really bad in comparison to their rivals. The 3 most recent winners: Spain, Germany, France had a MILES better team than Argentina.
Also, and this is a bit subjective, but do you watch Messi play? Even today he not only scored, but delivered a ridiculously good long range pass that resulted in a Barca goal. I think there are more examples of Messi dribbling past the whole team and scoring than any other player. My point being, he doesn't rely much on his team mates to score goals. He's not a guy who stat pads by scoring tap ins.
Maradona was similar in his ability to score out of nothing, but imo you can't just ignore the statistics. If you look at the data, it really isn't close.
No, you are completely and utterly wrong. Not only has he relied on his team mates to score goals, but in his tenure in Barcelona an extraordinary amount of matches where he didn't score at all were won by Barca with convincing results. In any event quite a lot against Real Madrid, for example. In his years with Barcelona he was aided by a monster midfield and attacking formation a lot of the time, and before you tell me that that has nothing to do with him receiving assistance, assistance is not only the final pass before the goal. When a duo like Xavi and Iniesta is operating around you, you definitely have a lot more room to develop the situation.

:cool:
 
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