No tennis player will have the epilogue of the true GOAT of GOATS Diego Maradona

USO

Hall of Fame
Sporting achievement, like life, is not a zero sum game. GOAT debates within one sport are senseless enough. And now, we are to carry that debate across different disciplines and then extend it into the entertainment industry as well?
Have at it, chaps. I'm going off to play.

PS: Not even close. For the GOAT of all GOATs, this is the guy you want:

Golf is not a real sport. Maybe I’ll try it at retirement. :cool:
 
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Amritia

Hall of Fame
Not only has he relied on his team mates to score goals
I don't think you watch him play enough. He dribbles past loads of players himself time and time again. He also has more assists per game than anyone (so great passing stats as well as shooting)

Here are some dribbles that won't even be counted in stats (you have to press click on YouTube, but it's GENIUS so worth it):

 

alexio

Hall of Fame
there was a foul by an Argentinian right before Maradona got on the ball.
a player had lost the ball, didn't have possession, those kinds of tackles weren't considered as a foul those times (different rules a bit) so the referee was right to let them continue, it was a goal, fair and square (football wasn't so soft)
 

Poisoned Slice

Bionic Poster
Can remember Sir Alex Ferguson talking about them before the 2009 final. "I don't think Iniesta and Xavi have ever given the ball away in their lives.''

Always felt 2009 was the one that got away. Yeah, might think I'm being ridiculous, I do too, but I still feel a different tactic would have worked better. Not trying to match them because we are not as good at being Barcelona, obviously. Can remember listening to Wayne Rooney talking about the 2 finals with Barcelona. He mentioned the wrong tactics in the first final, second final United were on the decline.

Can still remember some of our United fans arguing with Barcelona fans about what Ronaldo does better and what Messi does better. Ronaldo was the superior header apparently. Then Messi scores a header in the final. I have to appreciate that one. lol
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
He is an absolute magician.

The things he's capable of with the ball make you catch your breath in awe.

One of those athletes that seemingly transcends human limitation.
It's just the stuff of dreams. I wonder if anyone who is hating on him will click on that video.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
I don't think you watch him play enough. He dribbles past loads of players himself time and time again. He also has more assists per game than anyone (so great passing stats as well as shooting)

Here are some genius dribbles (you have to press click on YouTube, but it's genius so worth it):

I don't think that you understood me. You said that he doesn't need his teammates to score goals, and you are wrong about that regardless of how many beautiful dribbles he makes.

I will make a point constructed from two of your statements here:

1) you said that club level football is more demanding (physically and otherwise), because the players have more time to gel with each other. We agree that Messi is very successful on a club level.

2) you say that he doesn't need his teammates to score goals (your current statement)

So, my question is, if he can be successful on the (according to you) stronger level without his teammates, why can't he be successful on the weaker level (according to you again) without them?

:cool:
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
So, my question is, if he can be successful on the (according to you) stronger level without his teammates, why can't he be successful on the weaker level (according to you) again, without them?
He is individually successful for Argentina though. He has more goals, and more goals per game, for Argentina than Maradona.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
He's obviously the best statistically in terms of goals and assists per game, and will finish up with the goalscoring record.
For people who don't watch football, they may think that perhaps he's just a stat padder.

But if you watch this video, these are examples of magical play which hasn't even resulted in him scoring. If you watch him play any match, he'll do things that are genius regularly. So he's more than just his absurd statistics.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
He's obviously the best statistically in terms of goals and assists per game, and will finish up with the goalscoring record.
For people who don't watch football, they may think that perhaps he's just a stat padder.

But if you watch this video, these are examples of magical play which hasn't even resulted in him scoring. If you watch him play any match, he'll do things that are genius regularly. So he's more than just his absurd statistics.
I watched that video, and one thing is fairly obvious: the more he dribbles, the less effective he is in front of the goal. In fact, almost the entirety of that video is him making ridiculous misses.

I wonder how many goals he scored after such dribbles and how many after a more conventional, but involving other players approaches. In fact, even only the first will be interesting.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Stronger meant originally more physical, but now you are using it in a different sense. You need to keep terms consistent to win an argument!

I don't think that you understood me. You said that he doesn't need his teammates to score goals, and you are wrong about that regardless of how many beautiful dribbles he makes.

I will make a point constructed from two of your statements here:

1) you said that club level football is more demanding (physically and otherwise), because the players have more time to gel with each other. We agree that Messi is very successful on a club level.

2) you say that he doesn't need his teammates to score goals (your current statement)

So, my question is, if he can be successful on the (according to you) stronger level without his teammates, why can't he be successful on the weaker level (according to you again) without them?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
You need to run fast to dribble like Messi, but then you need to slow to take the decisive shot. As soon as you slow the opposing players are on you.

I watched that video, and one thing is fairly obvious: the more he dribbles, the less effective he is in front of the goal. In fact, almost the entirety of that video is him making ridiculous misses.

I wonder how many goals he scored after such dribbles and how many after a more conventional, but involving other players approaches. In fact, even only the first will be interesting.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
Stronger meant originally more physical, but now you are using it in a different sense. You need to keep terms consistent to win an argument!
No, and the indication for that is that there was a comment about how well worked in the players from the club teams are compared to the national presentations. You need to first find out what was really said before correcting other people on how consistent their argument is.

:cool:
 

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
Maradona's wonder goal should have also been disallowed as there was a foul by an Argentinian right before Maradona got on the ball.
Not saying Maradona wasn't great, just think it's silly that we allow one tournament win that was mainly due to cheating and referring errors, overrule all the overwhelming data and statistics that show Messi as greater.
by the way, england has twice a player to be sent off: one time a english player elbowed maradona in the face in the first half. then a brutal foul in the end of a english player on valdano, and this player already had a yellow.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
See above or below for more confirmation of my argument that you have no respect for the topic and consistency.

Amrita talked about dribbles that won't end up in stats - as no goal - and you changed that to failed dribbles because it suited your ends.

No, and the indication for that is that there was a comment about how well worked in the players from the club teams are compared to the national presentations. You need to first find out what was really said before correcting other people on how consistent their argument is.
LOL. The whole point of that video was a compilation of Messi dribbles that didn't end up in goals.

You want some Messi dribbles that ended up in goals?

 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
LOL. The whole point of that video was a compilation of Messi dribbles that didn't end up in goals.

You want some Messi dribbles that ended up in goals?

The video is not called "20 Messi dribbles where he missed". It is called "20 Messi dribbles that shocked the world", or is that some joke where the shocking part is that he missed?

I think that you missed my point (again).

Surely, Messi did want to score, no? The fact that he didn't means only that for all his dribbling skills, he misses horrendously all the time.

:cool:
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
See above or below for more confirmation of my argument that you have no respect for the topic and consistency.
Since I shut you down by pointing at where you didn't understand what is being said, you are running away from admitting that you yet again wasn't paying attention, or, worse, deliberately ignored it, just so that you continue to whine. You have respect only for consistently whining and no respect whatsoever for the facts that you address. At this point you are a caricature.

:cool:
 
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Bartelby

Bionic Poster
It was a small edited selection of dribbles introduced as 'not counted in stats' that you have magnified into Messi missing 'horrendously all the time'.

The video is not called "20 Messi dribbles where he missed". It is called "20 Messi dribbles that shocked the world", or is that some joke where the shocking part is that he missed?

I think that you missed my point (again).

Surely, Messi did want to score, no? The fact that he didn't means only that for all his dribbling skills, he misses horrendously all the time.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
It was a small edited selection of dribbles that you have magnified into Messi missing 'horrendously all the time'.
Football players miss all the time, otherwise we would be having Handball results, if they didn't. The point was that after extremely high level of dribbling he misses in front of the goal from a clear position. The discrepancy is obvious.

:cool:
 

USO

Hall of Fame
Football players miss all the time, otherwise we would be having Handball results, if they didn't. The point was that after extremely high level of dribbling he misses in front of the goal from a clear position. The discrepancy is obvious.

:cool:
It’s like a free throw in basketball, many of the top players have missed many times and there’s no goalie to disrupt them. It happens.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Not quite. Missing a penality would be the same, but by the time you get to the end of a long run of dribbling, you're pooped.

When a lesser player than Messi does this, the other players look at them nastily for not passing the ball on.

The other fact here is that defensive systems get better over time, so Messi is pretty special.

It’s like a free throw in basketball, many of the top players have missed many times and there’s no goalie to disrupt them. It happens.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
The video is not called "20 Messi dribbles where he missed". It is called "20 Messi dribbles that shocked the world", or is that some joke where the shocking part is that he missed?
The video was a compilation of dribbles that didn't end up in a goal.
It's just common sense- if the uploader wanted to find examples of Messi dribbling past people and scoring, he could have taken one of the many clips from the next video I sent.

The fact your reaction to it was noting the fact he missed at the end of those 20 dribbles... not very bright.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
Surely, Messi did want to score, no? The fact that he didn't means only that for all his dribbling skills, he misses horrendously all the time.

:cool:
If he misses horrendously all the time, then why does he have the greatest goal per games stats in the history of football?

What about this video?

 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
If he misses horrendously all the time, then why does he have the greatest goal per games stats in the history of football?

What about this video?

You didn't potentially think that by "all the time" it is meant "every single time", did you?

What else could that mean?

Hint: have another look at post #422

:cool:
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
Me: Messi has the best goals and assists per game stats of all time

Hatahs: You can't just look at stats, Messi isn't anything beyond that

Me: *Posts video of 20 examples of Messi magic that didn't end up in a goal*

Hatahs: Ah, well this just proves Messi misses horrendously all the time

Me: *Posts video of countless Messi dribbles ending up in solo goals*

Hatahs: *No comment*
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
Me: Messi has the best goals and assists per game stats of all time

Hatahs: You can't just look at stats, Messi isn't anything beyond that

Me: *Posts video of 20 examples of Messi magic that didn't end up in a goal*

Hatahs: Ah, well this just proves Messi misses horrendously all the time

Me: *Posts video of countless Messi dribbles ending up in solo goals*

Hatahs: *No comment*
Bolded: Fail. I never said or implied that. It appears that you are not following what is being said.

:cool:
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
If you bombastically overstate your case, then you end up making yourself look foolish.
I didn't "bombastically overstate my case". It requires a minimal level of understanding to know that.

In fact, there is no "case" related to Messi's dribbling to speak of. As it turns out Amritia doesn't even know what was "the case", and it appears that you don't either.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Maybe you need to invent some hand signals so we know how seriously to take anything that you do write?

I didn't "bombastically overstate my case". It requires a minimal level of understanding to know that.

In fact, there is no "case" related to Messi's dribbling to speak of. As it turns out Amritia doesn't even know what was "the case", and it appears that you don't either.
 

Thetouch

Professional
We are on a damn tennis forum and have been talking for 2 days or so about Maradona who had not played a single game for like 23 years, which just proves what a big name and status he has lol
 

USO

Hall of Fame
We are on a damn tennis forum and have been talking for 2 days or so about Maradona who had not played a single game for like 23 years, which just proves what a big name and status he has lol
Not really, it’s because the opening poster used Maradona to diss all tennis players as not legendary enough. If this person had just said RIP Maradona without provoking everyone by saying that tennis players will always be inferior we wouldn’t have gotten past the first page.
 

Thetouch

Professional
Not really, it’s because the opening poster used Maradona to diss all tennis players as not legendary enough. If this person had just said RIP Maradona without provoking everyone by saying that tennis players will always be inferior we wouldn’t have gotten past the first page.
yeah buddy, that's why we have been talking about football all the time lol
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Players used to mercilesly chop down attackers back in those days and all they got was a free kick.

They even pulled shirts if it stopped a goal. Sure they got a free kick, but that was a price worth paying.

The handball won a vital match and that's why it is so infamous. Otherwise it was all kinds of ordinary.

Maradona is the greatest handballer of all time, and he deserves our respect.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
My top 10 footballers of all time would be something like this:

1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Di Stefano
4. Messi
5. Cruyff
6. Beckenbauer
7. Zidane
8. Puskas
9. Best
10. C Ronaldo

Messi can't be placed ahead of Maradona or Pele without a World Cup win. Di Stefano still narrowly tops him as the greatest club football achiever of all time, IMHO.

Football GOAT remains a contest between Maradona and Pele.
That's a good list. Personally, I'd swap The Kaiser with Cryuff, and tbh can't really decide between Pele and Maradona for No1. Some are arguing that Messi is the greatest. Sure he's great (one of the greatest actually), but Maradona never had the luxury of being surrounded by a formidable team: Argentina 1986/90 and Napoli 1986-90. He basically carried the team single-handedly. Messi could never do that, infact in 2010 WC (or 2014 can't remember which exactly) he was surrounded by excellent players...much better team than the 1986 and 90 sides, yet couldn't deliver. Just never had 'that presence' ...the captaining skills Diego had. I remember in the WC 1990 R16, Argentina were being entirely dominated by Brazil, and it took a Maradona genius to assist Canniggia for the lone goal. People forget about these kind of assists when comparing greats and just look at other 'hard'stats, like goals.
 
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Bender

G.O.A.T.
We are on a damn tennis forum and have been talking for 2 days or so about Maradona who had not played a single game for like 23 years, which just proves what a big name and status he has lol
Maybe everyone else was talking about his football--I'm just upset that I have to go find a new dealer.
 
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