Nole looks at ease v Nadal

Brett UK

Semi-Pro
In my view, Nole is looking better and better each year in his match up v Nadal. I used to rate it 50/50 on HC or grass. Now I rate Nole well ahead on all surfaces except at Roland Garos. At RG Nadal just gets vicious bounce. He does not play any better, he just hits regulation FH that are incredibly hard to control.

So I think Nadal to win RG this year despite in my opinion Nole is better player and widening the gap.

On HC and grass and indoor, Nole will dominate. He really likes to return Nadal's serve and it gets him on top of the points.
 
O

OhYes

Guest
Anything could happen at RG. It will be how the wind blows that day. Literally.
 

NGM

Hall of Fame
One more year and there will be at least 5 guys can beat Nadal on clay anyday.

This year, Nadal still can hope for another French Open if he is lucky enough. It means he needs someone take Djokovic out for him.
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
Nole beat Nadal at Monte Carlo in 2013, 6-2, 7-6. He still lost at Roland Garros.

This match has no bearing on their future Roland Garros meetings.
 

NGM

Hall of Fame
Nole beat Nadal at Monte Carlo in 2013, 6-2, 7-6. He still lost at Roland Garros.

This match has no bearing on their future Roland Garros meetings.

Look at the matches again. Nadal could lost to Djokovic but he kept thing competitive. In most of the time Djokovic won by strong mentality and he had to try real hard. The longer match the more vulnerablity for Djokovic.

This time is different. The longer matches the more vulnerablity for Nadal. His body is failing him. The BODY. Do you realise how important this detail is? I say it again. Nadal's body is failing him.
 
Nadal always brings his best at RG. If he loses at RG, then this forum will explode and people will be talking about a decline, but he has rebounded quite well in the past. If he wins RG (which is very likely), then none of these matches in Masters 1000 will matter in the long run.
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
Look at the matches again. Nadal could lost to Djokovic but he kept thing competitive. In most of the time Djokovic won by strong mentality and he had to try real hard. The longer match the more vulnerablity for Djokovic.

This time is different. The longer matches the more vulnerablity for Nadal. His body is failing him. The BODY. Do you realise how important this detail is? I say it again. Nadal's body is failing him.
All I know is that the winner of Roland Garros is not set in stone.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Nadal had his chances in that match, the scoreline does not reflect how tight the match was overall…

considering Nadal's new racquet, i think he's somewhat pleased with how he played.
 

OddJack

G.O.A.T.
Yes, very easy.

If you look at the second set, it must have been 6-1. Novak missed some easy balls. Except one service game which went to about 10 mints, most of Novak's holds were straight forward. On the other hand, Novak was contorlling most of rallies on Rafa's service games.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
That match was highly competitive, Nadal was unlucky not to go up double break at the start of the first set. He took it to Djokovic, who looked anything but as ease at the start. Djokovic won due to probably a little bit more big match play recently than Nadal...but the signs are there that Rafa is very much back, and if Nole doesn't bring it to Paris, it could be another painful day at the office for him.
 

chrischris

G.O.A.T.
Rafa will improve during the next few weeks.
Nole is playing his best now.
50/50 chances for both guys at RG. Nadal is helped by the 5 set format andhis pedigree at the French.
If Nadal gets a tough draw andlonger matches just prior to playing Nole , Nole will use that to win.
Today , Rafa had 2 long 3 setters ( Isner and Ferrer) in his body so Nole couldnt be hurt physically.
If Nole had 2 long 3 seters in his bod before playing a fresh Rafa the outcome would have been quite different today.
 

NGM

Hall of Fame
Today , Rafa had 2 long 3 setters ( Isner and Ferrer) in his body so Nole couldnt be hurt physically.
If Nole had 2 long 3 seters in his bod before playing a fresh Rafa the outcome would have been quite different today.

Wait a minute. Why Nadal had two three setters at first place? Against Isner and Ferrer of all people?
 

Phalagoo

Rookie
I am more intrigued with the way the match was played today. It didn't seem like the topspin+power-fest that is usually played in Djokovic-Nadal matches. I guess that is rather given after the change in play associated with the changes in paintjobs.
 

winstonplum

Hall of Fame
That match was highly competitive, Nadal was unlucky not to go up double break at the start of the first set. He took it to Djokovic, who looked anything but as ease at the start. Djokovic won due to probably a little bit more big match play recently than Nadal...but the signs are there that Rafa is very much back, and if Nole doesn't bring it to Paris, it could be another painful day at the office for him.

Glad to know at least one poster here knows one end of a buttcap from a headguard. That match was extremely competitive for quite a bit. Rafa faded a bit at the end of the first set but then had 40-0 to go up 4-3 in the second. A few balls here and there and it could have gone three.

That said, Nole did look like the stronger player, the better player. Nadal has been in decline for two years. Let's not kid ourselves. He's lost a few steps. But he competed hard and if things break right for him, he still has chances at winning big tournaments.
 

90's Clay

Banned
Difference is that was Nadal of a few years ago before his body was failing him unlike now. You can only make so many comebacks. Nadal looks like a 50 year old man out there these days

And hes not just struggling with Nole these days. Hes struggling with almost EVERYONE. Hell, Isner and Ferrer could have beat him.

I think Rafa's winning days on clay are over as that surface just requires too much physicality (which Rafa has lost a ton of now).

Now, I think he can still win on other surfaces if he ups his aggressive game and goes for more on the serve and FH like he was doing in 2010. But he can't beat chasing balls around and engaging in 100 shot rallies like before.

I actually like NAdal's chances more on grass/hards than I do on clay.. IF... He can start going back to his aggressive big serve/FH combo like he did a few years and going for more overall on his shots
 
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bjsnider

Hall of Fame
Nole beat Nadal at Monte Carlo in 2013, 6-2, 7-6. He still lost at Roland Garros.

This match has no bearing on their future Roland Garros meetings.

Maybe it doesn't, but Djokovic has been improving his game all along, and it appears to me that it's even less attackable now than it was, say, in 2011. In 2011 he had a good serve, but he could be broken, he would miss overheads habitually, he wasn't comfortable at net, and he could be junkballed. Now, his serve is great and the other weaknesses don't exist anymore. So there is truly nothing to attack. You just have to hope he has an off day.

Maybe Nadal will still beat him at RG, if they play there, but Djokovic is winning every match he wants to without expending much energy. I wouldn't bet on it.
 

Clay lover

Legend
It always astounds me as to how much Djokovic has matured. He is now perhaps the greatest redirecter of pace the game has ever seen. He is hardly and has never been a defensive player some posters have made him out to be but is rather the epitome of controlled aggression. You can imagine how frustrated Nadal, or any opponent for that matter, is when Djokovic kept throwing back 80% pace shots with good angle, spin and depth with consistency from all parts of the court, both on offense and defense.

Federer is able to still beat Djokovic despite his age because he himself is a good redirecter of pace and also because he got used to all the pacier exchanges back in his early days.
 

Clay lover

Legend
Of course, the sheer fighting spirit of Nadal which enables him to still pull through when facing the physical specimen that is Djokovic also deserves much respect. You can tell he is struggling at times and his defense, while good, is not even at the same level as Djokovic's let alone that of his 2000s self.
 

OddJack

G.O.A.T.
Novak is winning easily against everyone. He will win MC tomorrow having spent less time on court than Nadal.

Whoever still thinks Rafa is the favorite for RG is not betting any money on him
 
That match was highly competitive, Nadal was unlucky not to go up double break at the start of the first set. He took it to Djokovic, who looked anything but as ease at the start. Djokovic won due to probably a little bit more big match play recently than Nadal...but the signs are there that Rafa is very much back, and if Nole doesn't bring it to Paris, it could be another painful day at the office for him.

It really wasn't as competitive as you make it out to be. Was it complete domination? No, but it was extremely clear who the better player was. By midway through the first set, while on serve, Djokovic was listed at 3/10 to win the match. He looked like he couldn't lose.

Look at the match stats:

Total points won: Djokovic 56%, Nadal 43%
First Serve won: Djokovic 72%, Nadal 58%
Second Serve won: Djokovic 57%, Nadal 47%

So while it wasn't complete domination, it wasn't "a point here and there" either. You never see someone lose with that stat line.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Glad to know at least one poster here knows one end of a buttcap from a headguard. That match was extremely competitive for quite a bit. Rafa faded a bit at the end of the first set but then had 40-0 to go up 4-3 in the second. A few balls here and there and it could have gone three.

That said, Nole did look like the stronger player, the better player. Nadal has been in decline for two years. Let's not kid ourselves. He's lost a few steps. But he competed hard and if things break right for him, he still has chances at winning big tournaments.

Yes, Djokovic looked stronger. But, I don't feel the gap is as big between them as it is being made out. Some of those games were gruelling battles, and no one other than these two can endure. Nadal is declining, we can all see this, but he is still very much a part of this rivalry, and of course the more heavyweight matches he gets, the more match ready he will become. This match was maybe a little soon, but he certainly can't be too down on himself, he held his own quite well out there.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
It was comprehensive. The battle was an illusion and Djokovic had something in hand; he had Nadal on a string in many of the rallies. He's just so good at redirecting that fuzzy little yellow thing and playing on his terms.

Lots of work to be done for Nadal. Can he get that work done? I think he can, but it won't be easy.

Djokovic wasn't just slightly better, he was a lot better. The match really was on his racket.
 

djokovic2008

Hall of Fame
That match was highly competitive, Nadal was unlucky not to go up double break at the start of the first set. He took it to Djokovic, who looked anything but as ease at the start. Djokovic won due to probably a little bit more big match play recently than Nadal...but the signs are there that Rafa is very much back, and if Nole doesn't bring it to Paris, it could be another painful day at the office for him.

Bro you do realise djoker lost only THREE points on serve in the second set do you call that competitive?
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Bro you do realise djoker lost only THREE points on serve in the second set do you call that competitive?

Towards the end, Djokovic was moving much better, and he opened his shoulders out much more, better trunk rotation too. But, a lot of the points were ultra competitive, some crazy rallies, bruising and punishing physical shotmaking from both. It certainly wasn't a breeze for Novak, but of course, he was ultimately the better player.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Towards the end, Djokovic was moving much better, and he opened his shoulders out much more, better trunk rotation too. But, a lot of the points were ultra competitive, some crazy rallies, bruising and punishing physical shotmaking from both. It certainly wasn't a breeze for Novak, but of course, he was ultimately the better player.

Looked to me like even if Nadal had fluked the 2nd, he'd have been comparatively gassed in the 3rd. He was having to work so so much harder than Djokovic all match long. Djokovic merely contained Nadal.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Nole beat Nadal at Monte Carlo in 2013, 6-2, 7-6. He still lost at Roland Garros.

This match has no bearing on their future Roland Garros meetings.

I don't think it is that much about Djokovic looking stronger, as it is about Nadal looking mentally (and maybe a little physically) weaker.

Maybe the clay-court season will restore Nadal's confidence.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Looked to me like even if Nadal had fluked the 2nd, he'd have been comparatively gassed in the 3rd. He was having to work so so much harder than Djokovic all match long. Djokovic merely contained Nadal.

Nadal admited in post match interview that he was getting tired quicker - something along those lines. I think he is just lacking some bruising encounters that can help get the juices flowing for the wars he should be expecting with Djokovic.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Nadal admited in post match interview that he was getting tired quicker - something along those lines. I think he is just lacking some bruising encounters that can help get the juices flowing for the wars he should be expecting with Djokovic.

It's not just about that though. Djokovic's redirection today was almost flawless. His aim was to make Nadal tire before he himself tired. Nadal covered more metres I imagine, but also the metres he did cover had to be done so with much more force and much less efficiency. If he doesn't want to tire first then he needs to find a way to play on his terms again.. which has typically been with the FH but Novak kept Nadal in check today even with his own DTL FH.

If Novak can keep that frankly ridiculous level of ball control up (which requires insane talent) then it's going to be a hard road for Nadal. Nadal can play better, but ominous signs from Djokovic.
 
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tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Nadal admited in post match interview that he was getting tired quicker - something along those lines. I think he is just lacking some bruising encounters that can help get the juices flowing for the wars he should be expecting with Djokovic.

Tired with a 1.5 hour match ? That doesnt sound good.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
It's not just about that though. Djokovic's redirection today was almost flawless. His aim was to make Nadal tire before he himself tired. Nadal covered more metres I imagine, but also the metres he did cover had to be done so with much more force and much less efficiency. If he doesn't want to tire first then he needs to find a way to play on his terms again.. which has typically been with the FH but Novak kept Nadal in check today even with his own DTL FH.

If Novak can keep that frankly ridiculous level of ball control up (which requires insane talent) then it's going to be a hard road for Nadal. Nadal can play better, but ominous signs from Djokovic.

I did like some of the new plays Djokovic brought to the party. He showed a couple of new things today.

Tired with a 1.5 hour match ? That doesnt sound good.

Well, some of those rallies were just not meant to be played by mere mortals. And Djokovic is a monster that Nadal himself has created.
 

vanioMan

Legend
I did like some of the new plays Djokovic brought to the party. He showed a couple of new things today.



Well, some of those rallies were just not meant to be played by mere mortals. And Djokovic is a monster that Nadal himself has created.

Well, one good thing is that Rafa will now have time to prepare counter-tactics for their next meetings ;)
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Usually, Nadal and Djokovic share the effort out 50/50 but today was like 60/40.. and that's unsustainable. We can say the same for Murray against Djokovic with his inefficient service games and all the extra work he has to do to hold his serve.

Currently, Djokovic is making his key rivals have to do more work than himself. It's not easy to counter either, because he can apparently hit the ball anywhere and at any time off both wings. He doesn't just slot the occasional DTL BH. Murray gets into these monotonous FH to BH exchanges with Nadal but Djokovic is having none of that and is very willing to consistently play the match on his terms and hold ground at the baseline.

Well, one good thing is that Rafa will now have time to prepare counter-tactics for their next meetings ;)



Yes. The call has been made and it's a mighty fine one. Nadal's response will be interesting.
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
You should pay more attetion to that detail.

Of course I watched every single point. It is a fraction of what Novak is going to throw at him at FO.

Rafa's strategy has been to grind and retrieve innumerable balls and ztill not end up being tired at all. Now , if that is in jeopardy , then the results would show.
 

OddJack

G.O.A.T.
It really wasn't as competitive as you make it out to be. Was it complete domination? No, but it was extremely clear who the better player was. By midway through the first set, while on serve, Djokovic was listed at 3/10 to win the match. He looked like he couldn't lose.

Look at the match stats:

Total points won: Djokovic 56%, Nadal 43%
First Serve won: Djokovic 72%, Nadal 58%
Second Serve won: Djokovic 57%, Nadal 47%

So while it wasn't complete domination, it wasn't "a point here and there" either. You never see someone lose with that stat line.

you watched the match, second set could've been 6-1 for Novak. He tried to break in every service game and lost some easy balls. He hold his own with ease. Thats not competitive at all.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Of course I watched every single point. It is a fraction of what Novak is going to throw at him at FO.

Rafa's strategy has been to grind and retrieve innumerable balls and ztill not end up being tired at all. Now , if that is in jeopardy , then the results would show.


Rafa won 15 of 18 at net the only real stat that he did better than Novak in. What do you think about him moving forward more? I think this could take Novak off his game plan.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
Usually, Nadal and Djokovic share the effort out 50/50 but today was like 60/40.. and that's unsustainable. We can say the same for Murray against Djokovic with his inefficient service games and all the extra work he has to do to hold his serve.

Currently, Djokovic is making his key rivals have to do more work than himself. It's not easy to counter either, because he can apparently hit the ball anywhere and at any time off both wings. He doesn't just slot the occasional DTL BH. Murray gets into these monotonous FH to BH exchanges with Nadal but Djokovic is having none of that and is very willing to consistently play the match on his terms and hold ground at the baseline.





Yes. The call has been made and it's a mighty fine one. Nadal's response will be interesting.


What impressed me was how Djokovic was hindering Nadal to get the Forehand DTL into play. Backhand DTL REALLY hurts Nadal, and it showed. Ferrer also used that same tactic when he beat him here last year, and yesterday also. It prevents a pattern of play that allows Nadal to hit the forehand DTL. And that gave Novak a trump card.
 

Clay lover

Legend
I think with the improvement of Nadal's DTL Novak really had to change his gameplan. Back then he used to put constant pressure on the forehand. Now it's quite the reverse. It's pressure to the backhand until there's big enough a gap on the forehand. That said, Nadal's backhand was surprisingly reliable today. It was his forehand that let him down. It just never found the mark.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
What impressed me was how Djokovic was hindering Nadal to get the Forehand DTL into play. Backhand DTL REALLY hurts Nadal, and it showed. Ferrer also used that same tactic when he beat him here last year, and yesterday also. It prevents a pattern of play that allows Nadal to hit the forehand DTL. And that gave Novak a trump card.

SO basically, he's forcing Rafa to play an inordinate amount of backhands. If Djokovic can maintain such form then there's only really one solution, which is getting that backhand into some real best shape. Rafa needs his '08-'09 level backhand hitting and confidence. Nadal can be in as good a form as he wants; Djokovic playing like that is still going to force him to play rather a lot of backhands—he'll exploit the weakness for as long as it remains a weakness. Meanwhile, Djokovic doesn't have any real weakness currently that can be consistently exploited, although Nadal's slice can make him feel uncomfortable.

Djokovic played a brand of tennis that I'd describe as total baseline tennis. Total, because he didn't really play to too many set patterns or get bogged down, but just always played the court and the space without limitations, in a surgical and clinical manner. Not only is that ridiculously difficult to perform and maintain but it's probably the most efficient way to play from the baseline theoretically. He's in control. It's like he played the court, rather than the man. He was about 50/50 on backhands DTL or CC?

As eldanger25 would put it: "baseline machismo".
 
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ThomasGB

Semi-Pro
Clay tournaments aren't going to tell us much; RG will, especially for Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer. Djokovic could win all the clay tournaments from here to RG, but that doesn't mean he'll claim the slam.
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
SO basically, he's forcing Rafa to play an inordinate amount of backhands. If Djokovic can maintain such form then there's only really one solution, which is getting that backhand into some real best shape. Rafa needs his '08-'09 level backhand hitting and confidence. Nadal can be in as good a form as he wants; Djokovic playing like that is still going to force him to play rather a lot of backhands—he'll exploit the weakness for as long as it remains a weakness. Meanwhile, Djokovic doesn't have any real weakness currently that can be consistently exploited, although Nadal's slice can make him feel uncomfortable.

Djokovic played a brand of tennis that I'd describe as total baseline tennis. Total, because he didn't really play to too many set patterns or get bogged down, but just always played the court and the space without limitations, in a surgical and clinical manner. Not only is that ridiculously difficult to perform and maintain but it's probably the most efficient way to play from the baseline theoretically. He's in control. It's like he played the court, rather than the man. He was about 50/50 on backhands DTL or CC?

As eldanger25 would put it: "baseline machismo".

True, but Djokovic showed two counter strategies for that also. The first involves extreme rotation of the wrist to create an acute cross court angle that doesn't allow Nadal to hit an agressive forehand, but rather a more defensive one. It also moves Nadal out of his slicing pattern. The second was to recognize when Nadal was going to play the defensive slice and approach the net to cut it off, before it dipped.
 

JanowiczJ

Professional
It always astounds me as to how much Djokovic has matured. He is now perhaps the greatest redirecter of pace the game has ever seen. He is hardly and has never been a defensive player some posters have made him out to be but is rather the epitome of controlled aggression. You can imagine how frustrated Nadal, or any opponent for that matter, is when Djokovic kept throwing back 80% pace shots with good angle, spin and depth with consistency from all parts of the court, both on offense and defense.

Federer is able to still beat Djokovic despite his age because he himself is a good redirecter of pace and also because he got used to all the pacier exchanges back in his early days.

Perfect analysis on both assertions.
 

Clay lover

Legend
I dont think Nadal needs to work on his backhand at this stage. It's consistent enough as it is. It's the forehand that needs work. The reason Djokovic can hit DTL so easily is because Nadal's short CC forehands make it very easy for Novak to redirect the ball.

Despite all the talk about Novak's strong backhand one of the reasons Nadal still has an edge at FO is because his CC forehand when hit with depth still gives Novak trouble.
 

JanowiczJ

Professional
SO basically, he's forcing Rafa to play an inordinate amount of backhands. If Djokovic can maintain such form then there's only really one solution, which is getting that backhand into some real best shape. Rafa needs his '08-'09 level backhand hitting and confidence. Nadal can be in as good a form as he wants; Djokovic playing like that is still going to force him to play rather a lot of backhands—he'll exploit the weakness for as long as it remains a weakness. Meanwhile, Djokovic doesn't have any real weakness currently that can be consistently exploited, although Nadal's slice can make him feel uncomfortable.

Djokovic played a brand of tennis that I'd describe as total baseline tennis. Total, because he didn't really play to too many set patterns or get bogged down, but just always played the court and the space without limitations, in a surgical and clinical manner. Not only is that ridiculously difficult to perform and maintain but it's probably the most efficient way to play from the baseline theoretically. He's in control. It's like he played the court, rather than the man. He was about 50/50 on backhands DTL or CC?

As eldanger25 would put it: "baseline machismo".

Well done, sir!

Great discussion going on this thread.
 

Earnest One

Semi-Pro
Look at the matches again. Nadal could lost to Djokovic but he kept thing competitive. In most of the time Djokovic won by strong mentality and he had to try real hard. The longer match the more vulnerablity for Djokovic.

This time is different. The longer matches the more vulnerablity for Nadal. His body is failing him. The BODY. Do you realise how important this detail is? I say it again. Nadal's body is failing him.

"This time is different"... Yeah, this time is different has ZERO bearing until Djokovic actually beats Nadal at the FO AND wins the title.

There is no "this time is different" before then. Nonsense. NOTHING is written in stone or even particularly probably, barring some news that none of us posses at present. Appearances are ILLUSORY.

You can say anything. Words are cheap. Winning the FO and beating Nadal there is simply ONE of the hardest things to do in all of sports. I don't care if Nadal loses first round up until the FO. If he goes in without any significant injury, he will be a huge factor, if only psychologically.

Everything else is meaningless until he is dethroned--especially if he is in the final.
 
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Shangri La

Hall of Fame
The match was very close and competitive to my surprise. Give Nadal a few more weeks and he's still the number 1 favorite to win RG by far, unfortunately.
 
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