Nole surpasses Borg in weeks at No. 1

[Steffi-forever]

Congrats to Djoko, well deserved!

This is incredible that the last man not named Federer, Nadal and Djokovic who was #1 was Andy Roddick in february 2004. :shock: And Andy retired 2 years ago!

In that period, here are the women who achieved the # 1 ranking:

Justine Henin
Amélie Mauresmo
Lindsay Davenport
Maria Sharapova
Kim Clijsters
Ana Ivanovic
Jelena Jankovic
Serena Williams
Dinara Safina
Caroline Wozniacki
Victoria Azarenka

 

[5555]

Remember that Borg only played at the Australian Open once as well, at the age of 17, before he had even won a major. He effectively played 3 majors per year, not 4. He won 11 majors by the age of 25, regardless.

Remember that Borg's main rivals were Connors and McEnroe, neither of whom are GOAT candidates and Nole's main rivals are Federer and Nadal, arguably No. 1 and No. 2 of all-time. So, when we compare Nole and Borg, level of competition should be taken into account.

 

[Deleted member 512391]

I figured you were one, but are you not? Isnt he a national hero in Serbia. I figured every tennis fan there was a fan of his.

Well, that's a wrong assumption. Of course he is the most popular athlete in Serbia (like Seles was 20 years ago), but that doesn't mean that I am obligated to support him just because I happen to be Serb.

I support Federer and generally players who play attacking/power tennis.

 

[conway]

I find Djokovic is a very aggressive baseliner. I never got the potroyal of him as a grinding player. He is basically a victim of his outstanding defense. At Wimbledon last year he hit double the winners vs a peak playing Del Potro, supposably one of the biggest hitters. Djokovic is a huge hitter from the baseliner, and uses very aggressive and sharp placement and angles, change of directional plays, and excellent court positioning to help his attacking tennis style.

That is the main reason he has had the edge vs Nadal once Djokovic started his prime in 2011. Sure he is the only player who can match (or even surpass) the best ever defensive player and rallyer Nadal in defense and consistency. However on top of that he is on average more aggressive, hitting flatter and harder, and attempting winning placements, which have given him his main edge in the matchup.

Not that Nadal is a pusher either. He has one of the best forehands of all time. However he does have more tendency to play too defensively, and wait for opponents to miss, if he is anything less than fully confident. He also dishes up short balls to be plastered by a bit hitting opponent more than Djokovic, especialy off the backhand side, when he is anything other than in great form.

 

[Noelan]

I figured you were one, but are you not? Isnt he a national hero in Serbia. I figured every tennis fan there was a fan of his.

It proves your ingnorance about human nature, and tendendency foward to beliving in all of kinds of prejudices, on the other side someone must to crate all those prejudices. Internet forums are ideal for that..It's not your fault ,the whole world today operate in that way.

 

[uncle pollo]

Congratulations to Djokovic. Truly a great achievement. To surpass one of the GOAT candidates is no slouch

Give everyone a wood racquet.

 

[ultradr]

No need to combine No. 1 players post 2003 with those prior. It's a new era that protects the very top.

Exactly.

It is one surface tour and a few players dominates since post-2003 modern
baseline era.

Look at Djokovic reaching something like 22 consecutive slam quarters (or is it
semi's ? something like that). Federer, Djokovic and even Ferrer is in all time
top 10 or something. Kinda meaningless to compare records of players before
2003 or so.

 

[pennc94]

More than just surface homogenization, it is 32 seeds versus 16 at majors, and elimination of best of 5 at non-majors.

 

[tennis_pro]

Way to take credit away from Novak's achievement instead of just congratulating him like everybody else has. Not that I should be too surprised coming from you...

The truth hurts. Borg was the real no 1 for a good portion of 5-6 years but got screwed.

 

[5555]

The truth hurts. Borg was the real no 1 for a good portion of 5-6 years but got screwed.

The truth hurts: Nole has overtaken Borg in weeks at No. 1.

 

[bjsnider]

Borg was no longer a regular tour player at Djokovic's current age. He took himself out of the game.

 

[Mustard]

The truth hurts: Nole has overtaken Borg in weeks at No. 1.

The tour was a disorganised mess in the 1970s. Not like today. To treat weeks at number 1 back then as being the same as weeks at number 1 today, is a flawed analysis.

 

[5555]

The tour was a disorganised mess in the 1970s. Not like today. To treat weeks at number 1 back then as being the same as weeks at number 1 today, is a flawed analysis.

To compare Nole and Borg without taking into account level of competition is a flawed analysis. How many weeks at No. 1 (using current ranking method) would Borg have if his rivals were Federer and Nadal?

 

[Bukmeikara]

To compare Nole and Borg without taking into account level of competition is a flawed analysis. How many weeks at No. 1 (using current ranking method) would Borg have if his rivals were Federer and Nadal?

So Connors, Vilas and Mcenroe are bad rivals? You cant compare players from different eras. At the moment Djokovic is very far from reaching Borg status in tennis history and I am not talking about Slams titles.

 

[Bukmeikara]

The truth hurts: Nole has overtaken Borg in weeks at No. 1.

Do you believe that Djokovic achievments are on par with Borg because if anything else this kind of stat just shows us how wrong was the ranking system back then.

 

[5555]

So Connors, Vilas and Mcenroe are bad rivals?

Is it reasonable to say that Nole's competition has been tougher than Borg's? Yes or no?

You cant compare players from different eras.

If you can not compare players from different eras why do you say that Borg is a greater player than Nole?

Do you believe that Djokovic achievments are on par with Borg because if anything else this kind of stat just shows us how wrong was the ranking system back then.

How many weeks at No. 1 (using the current ranking method) would Borg have won if his rivals were Federer and Nadal?

 

[Bukmeikara]

Is it reasonable to say that Nole's competition has been tougher than Borg's? Yes or no?



If you can not compare players from different eras why do you say that Borg is a greater player than Nole?



How many weeks at No. 1 (using the current ranking method) would Borg have won if his rivals were Federer and Nadal?

1. No
2. Borg was the symbol of tennis back then like Nadal and Federer present time. Djokovic would always be in their shadow, I am not comparing their achievments on court
3. You cant just like that put Borg with Federer and Nadal, 25 years apart. Borg with 11 Slams(didnt particapate in AO) until he retire at 26 has less weaks than Djokovic who is 27 with 7 Slams. You know something is wrong when this happens.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

To compare Nole and Borg without taking into account level of competition is a flawed analysis. How many weeks at No. 1 (using current ranking method) would Borg have if his rivals were Federer and Nadal?

I'm too lazy and unmotivated to do the analysis, has anybody done it?
Hint: The higher the standard deviation of players' won-lost records from .500, the lower the level of competitiveness.

 

[5555]

No

Why not?

Borg was the symbol of tennis back then like Nadal and Federer present time. Djokovic would always be in their shadow, I am not comparing their achievments on court

Q: How do you measure the greatness?
A: Achievements on court.

You cant just like that put Borg with Federer and Nadal, 25 years apart. Borg with 11 Slams(didnt particapate in AO) until he retire at 26 has less weaks than Djokovic who is 27 with 7 Slams. You know something is wrong when this happens.

To compare Nole and Borg without taking into account level of competition is a flawed analysis.

 

[Mustard]

Why not?

Borg had players like Connors, McEnroe and Vilas as rivals.

Q: How do you measure the greatness?
A: Achievements on court.

Borg won 11 majors at the age of 25, while playing 3 majors per year on average during his career. He won won the Masters (now WTF) twice, in January 1980 and January 1981 (an event he didn't always play), and won the WCT Dallas event in 1976.

To compare Nole and Borg without taking into account level of competition is a flawed analysis.

I think you should consider re-evaluating your opinion on Borg's level of competition.

 

[5555]

1. No
2. Borg was the symbol of tennis back then like Nadal and Federer present time. Djokovic would always be in their shadow, I am not comparing their achievments on court
3. You cant just like that put Borg with Federer and Nadal, 25 years apart. Borg with 11 Slams(didnt particapate in AO) until he retire at 26 has less weaks than Djokovic who is 27 with 7 Slams. You know something is wrong when this happens.

Why not?

Q: How do you measure the greatness?
A: Achievements on court.

To compare Nole and Borg without taking into account level of competition is a flawed analysis.

Bukmeikara, you've lost the argument.

Borg had players like Connors, McEnroe and Vilas as rivals.

Why is it unreasonable to say that Federer, Nadal and Murray are tougher competition than Connors, McEnroe and Vilas?

Borg won 11 majors at the age of 25, while playing 3 majors per year on average during his career. He won won the Masters (now WTF) twice, in January 1980 and January 1981 (an event he didn't always play), and won the WCT Dallas event in 1976.

That's correct but now compare Borg's level of competition with Nole's.

I think you should consider re-evaluating your opinion on Borg's level of competition.

Let's start with French Open. How many FO would Borg have won if his rival was Nadal?

 

[Snaab]

Let's start with French Open. How many FO would Borg have won if his rival was Nadal?

If Nadal were using a wood racket - I would take Borg over Nadal. Now, visa versa - using Babolats, I'm not so sure, even though I think Borg was an overall better athlete than Nadal.

 

[JoshT]

If I hear one more person say "you've lost the argument" I think i'll kill myself.
Such a strong need to assert oneself on a message board = Ne*d.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

52-1=51

Nole has 110 and Borg 109.

One week, eh?....

Well, Nole......(it's 'Nole' I take it?).... is 27 years old.

Borg had retired from the game at the age of 26.

Congratulations to Nole and his fans. Great achievement.

Congratulations to Novak indeed.

However, a question: why 'congratulations' to his FANS on this "great achievement?"

Exactly WHAT part of Novak's 'achievement' were his Talk Tennis fans responsible for???

Good for Novak, a good guy and a worthy champion of Grand Slams. While he's no Borg, he's moving up the ranks and looking at the state of flux the ATP Top 10 seems to be in, no reason not to think he'll add more Slams to his trophy case by the time he calls it quits. Congrats again Novak.

 

[Backspin1183]

Great achievement. But let's not forget that Borg was the best player of his generation. Novak Djokovic is behind Federer and Nadal.

 

[5555]

Borg had retired from the game at the age of 26.

Borg can only blame himself for that.

Great achievement. But let's not forget that Borg was the best player of his generation. Novak Djokovic is behind Federer and Nadal.

Would Borg have been the best player if his generation included Federer and Nadal?

 

[Fiji]

He will never reach Borg's 11 slams though.

 

[Mustard]

Would Borg have been the best player if his generation included Federer and Nadal?

I have no idea, and nor do you or anybody else.

 

[Djokovic2011]

He will never reach Borg's 11 slams though.

He could still surpass him without doing so of course.

 

[President]

He could still surpass him without doing so of course.

That would be very tough. Many people put Borg on par or even ahead of Sampras and Nadal, both of whom have 14 slams. I think Djokovic can equal or slightly surpass Connors or Lendl by the end of his career, which would be a great accomplishment given how much those two did outside the slams.

 

[Djokovic2011]

That would be very tough. Many people put Borg on par or even ahead of Sampras and Nadal, both of whom have 14 slams. I think Djokovic can equal or slightly surpass Connors or Lendl by the end of his career, which would be a great accomplishment given how much those two did outside the slams.

I don't follow you. If many people put Borg on a par with Nadal and Sampras despite having 3 less Slams, why wouldn't some people put Nole ahead of him even if he were one or two Slams behind?

 

[President]

I don't follow you. If many people put Borg on a par with Nadal and Sampras despite having 3 less Slams, why wouldn't some people put Nole ahead of him even if he were one or two Slams behind?

Because Borg's achievements are absolutely legendary, given the nature of the game back then (huge difference between grass and clay) and the fact that he only played 3 slams a year and retired at 26. I don't see what Djokovic could do, within reason, that would have him surpassing Borg if he only had 9 or 10 slams.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Slam counts when discounting the AO (3 Majors with quite reliable prestige throughout Open Era history barring a hiccup or two):

Federer - 13
Nadal - 13
Sampras - 12
Borg - 11

Djokovic - 3


Slam count at the holy grail of tennis:

Federer - 7
Sampras - 7
Borg - 5

Djokovic - 2

 

[smoledman]

Slam counts when discounting the AO (3 Majors with quite reliable prestige throughout Open Era history barring a hiccup or two):

Federer - 13
Nadal - 13
Sampras - 12
Borg - 11

Djokovic - 3


Slam count at the holy grail of tennis:

Federer - 7
Sampras - 7
Borg - 5

Djokovic - 2

I agree throwing in AO is bad when comparing with pre-1990 GOAT candidates. But if we only consider post-1990, then it's totally valid.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

I agree throwing in AO is bad when comparing with pre-1990 GOAT candidates. But if we only consider post-1990, then it's totally valid.

Agreed.

10 chars.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

Borg can only blame himself for that.

Blame? What's to blame? Borg retired a year earlier than Djokovic and even then was #1-ranked (during an era of shoddy record-keeping), that's all I was saying. Wasn't it enough that I gave Novak repeated congratulations?...and also calling him a "good guy and a worthy GS champion?"

I mean, just because Borg was clearly better than Djoko, don't blame me. Blame Borg: because Borg can only blame himself for that.

Would Borg have been the best player if his generation included Federer and Nadal?

You'll never know. Mentally stronger than Federer and equally as strong as Nadal. Nobody will know..





COLOR-CODED FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE KIDS!

Hey Skippy, why don't you list back-to-back French Open-Wimbledon championships?..

Slam counts when discounting the AO (3 Majors with quite reliable prestige throughout Open Era history barring a hiccup or two):

Federer - 13
Nadal - 13
Sampras - 12
Borg - 11

Djokovic - 3


Slam count at the holy grail of tennis:

Federer - 7
Sampras - 7
Borg - 5

Djokovic - 2

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Why are you constantly so aggressive on this forum, Dedans. You spend almost your entire time here finding posts you don't like and then with what seems like genuine malicious intent, crucify them. The only time you actually bothered to post in a marginally more civil manner was when Federer almost lost to Monfils and you decided to take a break from your generally disgusting attitude and posted semi friendly stuff (though still with insane amounts of condescension) about the match. Usually it's post after post (sometimes 30/40/50 in a row) of you jumping out of a hole suddenly and being pretty vicious - or at least that's how it comes across.

I think most members would agree here that it's rather unpleasant.

If sometimes you are just having fun and being jovial without any malicious intent, then you make it very unclear.

 

[abmk]

I don't follow you. If many people put Borg on a par with Nadal and Sampras despite having 3 less Slams, why wouldn't some people put Nole ahead of him even if he were one or two Slams behind?

that's because AO was not the 4th biggest event in borg's time. It was the Masters & WCT Dallas. Borg won 2 Masters and 1 WCT Dallas.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

The Italian Open was even mentioned before the AO for a time.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Because Borg's achievements are absolutely legendary, given the nature of the game back then (huge difference between grass and clay) and the fact that he only played 3 slams a year and retired at 26. I don't see what Djokovic could do, within reason, that would have him surpassing Borg if he only had 9 or 10 slams.

But if we put aside the difference between surfaces then I think there would still be a good argument for Nole being ahead, especially if he gets to 9/10 Slams by winning RG.

 

[Fiji]

But if we put aside the difference between surfaces then I think there would still be a good argument for Nole being ahead, especially if he gets to 9/10 Slams by winning RG.

Borg won FIVE Wimbledon and SIX RG when they were completely different surfaces. THAT is special. Now it's red and green clay.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Borg won FIVE Wimbledon and SIX RG when they were completely different surfaces. THAT is special. Now it's red and green clay.

But the record books won't include that part as an aside will they?

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

But if we put aside the difference between surfaces then I think there would still be a good argument for Nole being ahead, especially if he gets to 9/10 Slams by winning RG.

You think there is a good argument for Nole already being ahead of Borg? Or just if he carries on to win 9/10 Slams plus some other achievements such as additional YE#1 accolades and whatever else...

 

[Djokovic2011]

You think there is a good argument for Nole already being ahead of Borg? Or just if he carries on to win 9/10 Slams plus some other achievements such as additional YE#1 accolades and whatever else...

The second part Nathaniel.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

The second part Nathaniel.

Permission to edit my post as to reverse the two parts?

 

[Djokovic2011]

Or just if he carries on to win 9/10 Slams plus some other achievements such as additional YE#1 accolades and whatever else...

This part mate. :wink:

 

[5555]

He will never reach Borg's 11 slams though.

Does Nole must reach 11 slams in order to become a greater player than Borg?

I have no idea, and nor do you or anybody else.

We do not know but we can make reasonable guess. By the way, you have not answered this question:

Why is it unreasonable to say that Federer, Nadal and Murray are tougher competition than Connors, McEnroe and Vilas?

I don't see what Djokovic could do, within reason, that would have him surpassing Borg if he only had 9 or 10 slams.

Level of competition.

Slam counts when discounting the AO

I think it's a better idea to compare Nole and Borg by counting 5 biggest titles. Read below my answer to abmk.

Blame? What's to blame? Borg retired a year earlier than Djokovic and even then was #1-ranked (during an era of shoddy record-keeping), that's all I was saying. Wasn't it enough that I gave Novak repeated congratulations?...and also calling him a "good guy and a worthy GS champion?"

I mean, just because Borg was clearly better than Djoko, don't blame me. Blame Borg: because Borg can only blame himself for that.

Had Borg not retired, he could have achieved more so can only blame himself as Nole has now realistic chance to suprass Borg.

You'll never know. Mentally stronger than Federer and equally as strong as Nadal. Nobody will know..

Nadal is mentally stronger than Federer but Nadal has won less slams than Federer.

Hey Skippy, why don't you list back-to-back French Open-Wimbledon championships?..

How many back-to-back FO-W would Brog have won if his rivals were Federer and Nadal?

that's because AO was not the 4th biggest event in borg's time. It was the Masters & WCT Dallas. Borg won 2 Masters and 1 WCT Dallas.

Nole has 7 slams + 3 YEC = 10
Borg has 11 slams + 2 YEC + 1 WCT = 14

I predict Nole will surpass Borg's 14 titles.

Borg won FIVE Wimbledon and SIX RG when they were completely different surfaces. THAT is special. Now it's red and green clay.

What about level of competition?

 

[Fiji]

Does Nole must reach 11 slams in order to become a greater player than Borg?

He needs 11 slams at least to join the likes of Laver, Borg, Sampras and Nadal.

 

[Kenshin]

But if we put aside the difference between surfaces then I think there would still be a good argument for Nole being ahead, especially if he gets to 9/10 Slams by winning RG.

Some people on the Former player section even had Borg ahead of Sampras and Nadal on their top 10 lists. I was confused by that ranking at first but I wanted to know the reason behind it and read many posts regarding Borg on that section. Now I understand how some would put him even ahead of Pete and Rafa. You may find it interesting to know more about Borg.

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Kenshin, king of stoicism. How are you doing, my friend?

Good to see you around. Hopefully Rafa comes back for the last season arc and gives himself a chance to find form and match practice in time for WTF but especially the AO (the IPTL events should help here).