Non-Appealable NTRP Dynamic Rating Disqualification?

CiscoPC600

Professional
I have a player who was just promoted to 5.0, and I'm trying to appeal the situation but the local coordinator says it's not appealable. There must be a grievance option, and I have tangible evidence to demonstrate this is action should at least be reversed until the end of the season. If you have an email address or contact information for a higher up in the USTA, please PM me.

I'll spare the details as it won't achieve anything on here. I'm sure there are plenty of other people that have been in the same situation. I at least want to put USTA on notice what their arbitrary and flawed action is doing to a team that was poised for sectionals. Thanks in advance.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Hard to offer an opinion on what you should do if you offer no details. Was this a 3-strike DQ/promotion? Or was a grievance filed against the player and it was upheld resulting in the DQ/promotion? Or something else entirely?

In general, there is nothing you can do about a 3-strike DQ unless scores were entered incorrectly, or you can prove something shady went on to cause the player to get strikes unfairly. But frankly, the strike threshold allows for players to be a fair amount above level _and_ they have to get 3-strikes, so even if some strange happened for one match, it is unlikely that is the sole reason for the DQ.

If it was from a grievance, the player/captain should have had an opportunity to respond with facts to support their case and it should have been considered. If that didn't happen, perhaps you can make a case, but no guarantees.
 

CiscoPC600

Professional
Hard to offer an opinion on what you should do if you offer no details. Was this a 3-strike DQ/promotion? Or was a grievance filed against the player and it was upheld resulting in the DQ/promotion? Or something else entirely?

In general, there is nothing you can do about a 3-strike DQ unless scores were entered incorrectly, or you can prove something shady went on to cause the player to get strikes unfairly. But frankly, the strike threshold allows for players to be a fair amount above level _and_ they have to get 3-strikes, so even if some strange happened for one match, it is unlikely that is the sole reason for the DQ.

If it was from a grievance, the player/captain should have had an opportunity to respond with facts to support their case and it should have been considered. If that didn't happen, perhaps you can make a case, but no guarantees.

It was a 3-strike DQ. Our league is filled with other 4.5 players that have more dominating performances yet they haven't been bumped. One guy has an 11UTR..
 

Cloister

Rookie
It was a 3-strike DQ. Our league is filled with other 4.5 players that have more dominating performances yet they haven't been bumped. One guy has an 11UTR..
IOW, your league is filled with people who sandbagged last year to keep their computer rating down, and your self-rated sandbagger is paying the price for that.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
The other sandbaggers have a C rating so they are not subject to the DQ rule like a self rate would be. All you can do is tell your guy to do what they are doing.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
It was a 3-strike DQ. Our league is filled with other 4.5 players that have more dominating performances yet they haven't been bumped. One guy has an 11UTR..
Right or wrong, like @Moveforwardalways said, if the other 4.5s hold C ratings from the past year or two, they are not subject to strikes and DQs/promotions.

The idea is that they've had sufficient play from the year they got their C rating for to establish them as a legit player at that level, and allowing them to play at that level for the subsequent year and reevaluating their rating at year-end is sufficient.

A self-rate on the other hand has no history and the self-rate questions and where a player happens to self-rate may not be an accurate reflection of where they below. To project the other players that must play against this new player, the 3-strike system is in place to identify players that are "clearly above level" and seemingly self-rated too low so they can be promoted to the next level if appropriate. Note that the strike thresholds are not simply the top of their current level, but there is ample room for a player to improve and be above level without getting strikes. They really must demonstrate they are way above in order to be DQ'd.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
I’m not sure this would really qualify as tangible evidence the promotion should be reversed.
Agreed. It all depends on the opponents and partners and their ratings at the time of the match. Someone can have a dominating performance, but against low rated opponents, and they justifiably may not be rated as high as someone with a 0.500 record who achieved that against very high rated opponents.

The system really does a pretty good job of not DQing players unless they really deserve it, in fact I've seen far more cases where players have not been DQd and should have been than situations where someone was DQd that should not have been.

@CiscoPC600 if you are interested, PM me who the player is, I'd be curious to take a look. And I won't disclose anything about who the player is.
 

Ft.S

Semi-Pro
If your team is good to be in Sectionals, one player should not impact the team that much.

Having a DQ’d 5.0 player in a 4.5 team... umm... I don’t think you will get much sympathy here or the USTA.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
It was a 3-strike DQ. Our league is filled with other 4.5 players that have more dominating performances yet they haven't been bumped. One guy has an 11UTR..
LOL, three strike DQ's aren't appealable because they are mathematical. You can whine about "other players" all you want, but the DNTRP calculations are what they are and there is nothing subjective about them to appeal.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Some just want a place to play. For many, a bump up means no leagues or a multi hour drive for league.

I don't think that's the case for the OP, but just making the statement.
I too don't know if this is the case for the OP or not, but this is certainly true in some areas. The number of teams at 4.5 may be few, and a bump up to 5.0 relegates a player to no league play as there aren't enough players.

Now, it does become a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy in some cases as players sandbagging down to 4.5 in itself is the reason there aren't more 5.0s which leads the 5.0s there are to feel they have to sandbag in order to have a place to play. If everyone just played to their full ability, there would be more 5.0s and a better chance of having enough players to field a flight.
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
I too don't know if this is the case for the OP or not, but this is certainly true in some areas. The number of teams at 4.5 may be few, and a bump up to 5.0 relegates a player to no league play as there aren't enough players.

Now, it does become a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy in some cases as players sandbagging down to 4.5 in itself is the reason there aren't more 5.0s which leads the 5.0s there are to feel they have to sandbag in order to have a place to play. If everyone just played to their full ability, there would be more 5.0s and a better chance of having enough players to field a flight.
This is true. There are enough 5.0s in my area to make 2 teams which almost NEVER happens, but after their bad experience at 5.0 sectionals last year, I can't even convince them (not yet anyway) to play a local league.
 
I’ll never understand why some want to play under level even after being promoted. Embrace the promotion.


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It's clearly because the competition "under level" isn't quite so under-leveled. That and they want to win at all costs.
 
This is true. There are enough 5.0s in my area to make 2 teams which almost NEVER happens, but after their bad experience at 5.0 sectionals last year, I can't even convince them (not yet anyway) to play a local league.
I've known some 5.0s who were successfully able to form 3 full teams and begged the coordinators to let them play a regular season, only for the request to get declined. They just sent all three teams straight to districts.
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
Winning all the time is way more fun than losing all the time....just sayin'
The thing though is that someone who was mathematically DQ’ed from 4.5 league in the OPs case would NOT be losing all the time at 5.0.

Perhaps he would lose half of his matches. But at least he would be playing where he belongs.


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5sets

Semi-Pro
I have a player who was just promoted to 5.0, and I'm trying to appeal the situation but the local coordinator says it's not appealable. There must be a grievance option, and I have tangible evidence to demonstrate this is action should at least be reversed until the end of the season. If you have an email address or contact information for a higher up in the USTA, please PM me.

I'll spare the details as it won't achieve anything on here. I'm sure there are plenty of other people that have been in the same situation. I at least want to put USTA on notice what their arbitrary and flawed action is doing to a team that was poised for sectionals. Thanks in advance.
Lol, lol, as a Dynasty sandbagging captain I guess you failed to hold a team meeting in the beginning of the season where you instructed your players to throw a few games here and there in their matches to make it look real and avoid suspicion


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CiscoPC600

Professional
We are a new team that formed to stop a division with one team that had won it three years in a row. It was our policy not to throw games like we understood other teams did. Our goal was to end this country club's hold over the division. Our area doesn't have 5.0 leagues only tri level that is roughly one hour away. Few tournaments here have 5.0.

Only one of our players was bumped as mentioned in my original post. He is not even the strongest in the league. Multiple others at or above his level. You can construe this however you want but my post wasn't here to complain or get pity. I understand some people here would rather just not compete in league play.

The point of my post was to see if anyone experienced something similar and had contact info for someone to appeal to. If you want to be on a high pedestal and claim to be morally superior, feel free to do so. Most people here know that sectionals and nationals is full of teams with complete rosters made of sandbaggers. I don't feel bad that we had one player who came back from years off the sport to grind out and win every point/game possible. He never bageled anyone but others in the league have multiple times. This isn't a black and white issue but a systematic failure by the NTRP system. Especially the C vs S rating semantics.
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
The thing though is that someone who was mathematically DQ’ed from 4.5 league in the OPs case would NOT be losing all the time at 5.0.

Perhaps he would lose half of his matches. But at least he would be playing where he belongs.


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Winning all the time is more fun than winning half the time. Just sayin'
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Threads like this make me miss @Starzel
Dear God, no.

We are a new team that formed to stop a division with one team that had won it three years in a row. It was our policy not to throw games like we understood other teams did. Our goal was to end this country club's hold over the division. Our area doesn't have 5.0 leagues only tri level that is roughly one hour away. Few tournaments here have 5.0.

Only one of our players was bumped as mentioned in my original post. He is not even the strongest in the league. Multiple others at or above his level. You can construe this however you want but my post wasn't here to complain or get pity. I understand some people here would rather just not compete in league play.

The point of my post was to see if anyone experienced something similar and had contact info for someone to appeal to. If you want to be on a high pedestal and claim to be morally superior, feel free to do so. Most people here know that sectionals and nationals is full of teams with complete rosters made of sandbaggers. I don't feel bad that we had one player who came back from years off the sport to grind out and win every point/game possible. He never bageled anyone but others in the league have multiple times. This isn't a black and white issue but a systematic failure by the NTRP system. Especially the C vs S rating semantics.
Ok, then, the answer is that you can't appeal dynamic DQs. /thread
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
Ok, then, the answer is that you can't appeal dynamic DQs. /thread
This is the answer. The regulations specifically state that the only thing you can contest regarding a 3-strike DQ are incorrect scores (like I said earlier), so no, there isn't some other avenue to contest it.
 

Cloister

Rookie
This is the answer. The regulations specifically state that the only thing you can contest regarding a 3-strike DQ are incorrect scores (like I said earlier), so no, there isn't some other avenue to contest it.
Of course it would suck to have your first match against a highly rated player who legitimately turns their ankle or something near the start of the match, but hobbles their way through rather than retire resulting in a seemingly crushing victory. That alone could give a self rated player a high enough dynamic rating to basically guarantee a DQ.
 
Of course it would suck to have your first match against a highly rated player who legitimately turns their ankle or something near the start of the match, but hobbles their way through rather than retire resulting in a seemingly crushing victory. That alone could give a self rated player a high enough dynamic rating to basically guarantee a DQ.
Even worse happened to me. My second year playing league I played up as a 4.0 on some buddys' really good 4.5 team. At districts on the 2nd day we played a team who was out of the running so i got the chance to play singles. Before the match my opponent mentions how he wanted to get back down to 4.0. I didn't think anything of it at the time. He proceeded to give me winners that were clearly out and quit running for balls within his reach. I won like 6-2, 6-0... sayonara 4.0 tennis. I knew that match was weird as it was happening, but it took me months to realize what he was trying to do. Didn't know that was a thing at the time.

P.S. I looked him up and he never did get bumped down. What a waste.
 
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schmke

Hall of Fame
Of course it would suck to have your first match against a highly rated player who legitimately turns their ankle or something near the start of the match, but hobbles their way through rather than retire resulting in a seemingly crushing victory. That alone could give a self rated player a high enough dynamic rating to basically guarantee a DQ.
A single match like this is very unlikely to result in a DQ all by itself. It would have to be backed up by similarly high rated matches. So unless someone is very unlucky to have a situation like this happen repeatedly in back to back matches, ...

And the strike threshold is already high enough that a player is getting strikes, they are well above the top of their level already and almost certainly belong at the next higher level.
 

Cloister

Rookie
A single match like this is very unlikely to result in a DQ all by itself. It would have to be backed up by similarly high rated matches. So unless someone is very unlucky to have a situation like this happen repeatedly in back to back matches, ...

And the strike threshold is already high enough that a player is getting strikes, they are well above the top of their level already and almost certainly belong at the next higher level.
With singles I agree. Doubles though - play with a partner rated low in the range and beat moderately rated teams, your rating won’t drop.
 
Correct. This is basic math at work. The DQ'd player must have been paired with lower rated guys, struck out, and is now without recourse to appeal.
Sometimes the math stinks and there are victims of circumstances, but this has no where else to go.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
With singles I agree. Doubles though - play with a partner rated low in the range and beat moderately rated teams, your rating won’t drop.
Good point. You are right that strange situations can happen in doubles with low rated partners, but if someone can carry a low rated partner to a win against moderate to high rated opponents, a high rating is probably justified.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
It really is.

Don't sandbag.
Actually, it's not totally a black and white issue. Obviously, I'm OK with "promotions". If a player is identified out of level, then s/he should be moved up. What I don't like is overturning scores because the people who are "promoted" are the ones who DON'T cheat and manipulate scores. In other words, the people who are actually gaming the system are the ones who make sure they win 6-4 6-4 when they could easily bagel their opponents to make sure they don't get DQ'd. That is cheating. The players who get promoted are those rated at the wrong level but just play out the matches and eventually gets flagged and moved up, because they DON'T engage in the cheating that the score manipulators do. They should just be moved up and get on with it.
 

5sets

Semi-Pro
Actually, it's not totally a black and white issue. Obviously, I'm OK with "promotions". If a player is identified out of level, then s/he should be moved up. What I don't like is overturning scores because the people who are "promoted" are the ones who DON'T cheat and manipulate scores. In other words, the people who are actually gaming the system are the ones who make sure they win 6-4 6-4 when they could easily bagel their opponents to make sure they don't get DQ'd. That is cheating. The players who get promoted are those rated at the wrong level but just play out the matches and eventually gets flagged and moved up, because they DON'T engage in the cheating that the score manipulators do. They should just be moved up and get on with it.
I gotcha. You mean when in tennislink the winner’s score is reversed to 0-6 0-6, right? I always that thought that was strange. If he is honestly improving and winning, just bump him up without the scar on his name


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Good point. You are right that strange situations can happen in doubles with low rated partners, but if someone can carry a low rated partner to a win against moderate to high rated opponents, a high rating is probably justified.
TR gave my first 7.0 match a 4.36 rating, lol.
 
And you feel 4.0 is the correct level for you to be playing at?


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Yes, for now. I am toward the top of, but still competitive at, this level. I was just posting that to illustrate the point being made about strange results with low rated partner. My 7.0 mixed partner has a 2.67 mixed rating per TR. I most certainly do not play at a 4.36 level, lol.
 
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