NorCal 40+ league stupidity

[OrangePower]

The new 40+ league kicks off here in NorCal in January. The format is decidedly stupid IMO:

During the regular season, the format is 1 singles line + 2 doubles lines.
But during the post-season, it becomes 2 singles + 3 doubles.

So that means teams who think they have a shot at playoffs (i.e., most teams as at the start of the season ) need to have a roster size similar to that for 18+ league.

But during the regular season, there are only 5 players needed per match, rather than 8. That's only 62.5% of the play opportunities. As a result, people will get to play far less.

Of course, the USTA roster fee remains the same :shock:

Of the guys I have spoken to that think they will play, many intend to join two teams - our districts are close enough geographically to allow this. They figure that between the two teams they will get the same playing time as on one 18+ team. If both teams make playoffs they will have to decide which team to play for.

Perhaps this is an unintended consequence, but of course this would also result in additional roster fees for USTA (more :shock: ) There is another thread going on about USTA money grabbing, which reminded me of this 'feature'...

Who else thinks this format is dumb?

 

[floridatennisdude]

I don't think it matters much. You just need to clarify with folks up front if they can play in the post season. My experience is that you have a half dozen or so that have a conflict on a roster of 18. If you just keep the other 12, you'll have more than enough in the regular season. Then you end up with 10-11 that can travel after another 1 or 2 will undoubtedly have an emergency come up.

Nutshell, max your roster at 12 eager players.

 

[OnyxZ28]

It also seems harder for teams to get everybody qualified for playoffs. With only 5 people playing per match, and each person needing 2 matches to qualify for playoffs, with some of the smaller local flights (such as the upper peninsula, in 4.5 last year it had two teams!), it'll be tough to field a big team in anticipation of playoffs and get everybody qualified.

 

[Mike Y]

I'm glad that I am in my 30s and don't have to deal with these 40+ leagues. Plus, I am a 4.5, and in NorCal the 4.5 leagues can have 2 5.0s on the team. I know my normal 4.5 team is flipping out about that. So whoever can get the 40+ 5.0s on their team is going to dominate. If the league was trying to create more singles opportunities for the 40+ folks, doesn't this kinda defeat the purpose? The mostly doubles playing 40+ folks would get crushed by a 5.0 in singles. Coincidentally enough, I wouldn't mind trying my hand at a 5.0 in singles in the regular adult leagues, but it's kinda the opposite, only the old folks will get that "opportunity"

 

[OrangePower]

Nutshell, max your roster at 12 eager players.

It also seems harder for teams to get everybody qualified for playoffs.

Yeah, IF I captain a team, I will limit it to 12 players - fits in with my usual rule of thumb for roster size: (2 * number of players per match) + 2. That formula has worked well for me for 18+ (18 player roster) and combo (14 player roster). Then everyone gets playing time, and also that way I can get everyone qualified for playoffs.

Of course the risk is then needing to have absolutely everyone available for playoffs. Sure, I can get assurances before the season starts, but people's priorities change, they get injured, etc - stuff always seems to happen.

 

[OrangePower]

I'm glad that I am in my 30s and don't have to deal with these 40+ leagues. Plus, I am a 4.5, and in NorCal the 4.5 leagues can have 2 5.0s on the team. I know my normal 4.5 team is flipping out about that. So whoever can get the 40+ 5.0s on their team is going to dominate. If the league was trying to create more singles opportunities for the 40+ folks, doesn't this kinda defeat the purpose? The mostly doubles playing 40+ folks would get crushed by a 5.0 in singles. Coincidentally enough, I wouldn't mind trying my hand at a 5.0 in singles in the regular adult leagues, but it's kinda the opposite, only the old folks will get that "opportunity"

Yeah I wasn't going to muddy the waters with the 5.0 thing, but you're absolutely right, it seems to defeat the purpose. Each team can have 2 5.0s, but only one can play per match. So my guess is the 5.0 gets put in at singles - most bang for the buck. And of course there is only 1 singles line. So the actual 4.5s looking to play some singles are SOL.

 

[Jack the Hack]

OrangePower, I totally agree with you that the 1S/2D format for the regular season, and 2S/3D for the playoffs, makes no sense. Given that the purpose of the new 40+ league was to give people more opportunities to play, the NorCal decision seems to miss the point. Were they concerned about court space or something? (Seems to me that Northern California has no shortage of tennis courts.)

MikeY, I think you may have been misinformed. I have a draft copy of the 2013 USTA League rules, and page 5, section 2.01A, says:

2.01A NTRP Levels of Play:
- Changes 5.0 NTRP level to 5.0 Plus (+) NTRP level in Adult Division, 18 & Over League Type and changes 4.5 NTRP level to 4.5 Plus (+) NTRP level in Adult Division,
40 & Over League Type.- Allows all Plus (+) NTRP level team rosters to include up to two players from the next
higher NTRP level.
- Requires Plus (+) players to always play in the #1 position, either #1S or #1D.
- Allows only one Plus (+) player to compete in a team match when the Plus (+) NTRP
level utilizes only three individual matches within a team match.
- Allows two Plus (+) players to compete in a team match when the Plus (+) NTRP level
utilizes four or more individual matches within a team match.

The reason they are making the new "plus" categories is because there are rarely any teams above 5.0 in regular play, and no 5.0 divisions planned in the new 40+ category.

In other words, in the regular adult league (18+), they are eliminating the 5.5 league, and allowing two 5.5s to join a 5.0 team. And in 40+, there will be no 5.0 category, so two 5.0s are allowed to play 4.5.

4.5 teams in regular 18+ adult will stay the same as they always have, with no 5.0s allowed. (Unless these 5.0 and 5.5s self rate and sandbag to play, like usual!)

 

[KoaUka]

Yes that is strange....
Any idea why your district (NorCal) decided to go w/ that format and not align with the national format?
I wonder if any other districts decided to do that or if Norcal is the only one?
Our district chose to keep the format aligned w/ the national schedule (2 singles, 3 doubles).

 

[Jack the Hack]

Yes that is strange....
Any idea why your district (NorCal) decided to go w/ that format and not align with the national format?
I wonder if any other districts decided to do that or if Norcal is the only one?
Our district chose to keep the format aligned w/ the national schedule (2 singles, 3 doubles).

Same here, we're following the national format (2/3) in the Pacific Northwest.

It seems odd, with the plentiful number of courts and high participation levels, that NorCal would do this.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I will probobly skip the 40+ season, or at least not captain. I can play combo and mixed. That is enough.

 

[OrangePower]

Yes that is strange....
Any idea why your district (NorCal) decided to go w/ that format and not align with the national format?

No idea why this decision was made. If anyone on this forum is in the know, please share. All I know is what was posted on NorCal web site:

Team Match Format - Local League Season:
ONE line of singles and TWO lines of doubles

Team Match Format - District, Section, and National Championships:
TWO lines of singles and THREE lines of doubles

Levels: Men's and Women's teams in 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5+

4.5+ allows two 5.0 players to join the roster. One 5.0 player can participate per match. 5.0s must play singles or #1 doubles.

Age Requirement: Players must reach age 40 by the end of the calendar year.

 

[kylebarendrick]

Norcal claims this was to help facilities with court space. The end result is that instead of having a 50+ league where 6 play each week, we now have a 40+ league where 5 play. Looks like less tennis per person to me.

 

[NTRPolice]

Norcal claims this was to help facilities with court space. The end result is that instead of having a 50+ league where 6 play each week, we now have a 40+ league where 5 play. Looks like less tennis per person to me.

The good thing is that 5.0's can actually play league now. It kinda sucks when you have some 5.0 S players looking for a team, but arnt really 5.0's. I'm not sure we even have 5.0 teams here and any 5.0's either dump to 4.5 so they can play normal leagues or the 5.0's just have to try and find a 9.0 league to play on. The thing is... mixed dont count, so even if they find a 9.0 team, they cant sandbag to 4.5 to play adult next year haha.

 

[West Coast Ace]

The format is decidedly stupid IMO:

During the regular season, the format is 1 singles line + 2 doubles lines.

But full price, right?

Yeah, very dumb. But if you guys who have big list of players to play with keep putting up with it, you are in the 'you deserve what you accept' zone. Vote with your feet - take a year off and put your own events/ladders together. You may enjoy the change of pace.

 

[OrangePower]

But full price, right?

Yeah, very dumb. But if you guys who have big list of players to play with keep putting up with it, you are in the 'you deserve what you accept' zone. Vote with your feet - take a year off and put your own events/ladders together. You may enjoy the change of pace.

LOL, still waiting for the day USTA offers a discount to loyal customers who participate in multiple leagues

I'm torn on this one - I generally enjoy league; I can get all the tennis I want even without it, but I enjoy the cameraderie of being on a team, and I enjoy the competitive aspects. And I like that USTA is adding more playing opportunities for those of us 40-50, and included singles this time.

But I also agree with you - if I participate despite thinking it's dumb, what does that say about me?

I've decided that I won't captain, but still haven't decided whether I will join some other team or just sit it out.

 

[bruintennis]

I'm looking forward to the 40+ (4.5+) league. It should be interesting if there's enough teams in my area.

 

[The Dampener]

This new league will likely take time to sort itself out.

The intriguing aspect to me is that organizations will now have to figure out how many teams to field. For instance, my club frequently fields two teams for the sweet-sport ratings (3.5-4.5). So will they now have to field 3 teams to accommodate those who wish to play? Maybe more?

And God help us with the politics of who now gets to play on which teams.

Captains are going to have their hands full, no doubt.

 

[goober]

But full price, right?

Yeah, very dumb. But if you guys who have big list of players to play with keep putting up with it, you are in the 'you deserve what you accept' zone. Vote with your feet - take a year off and put your own events/ladders together. You may enjoy the change of pace.

This actually has been tried and done in my area. Mens 4.5 18+ and 40+ are pretty much dead. There are zero 40+ teams this season and over the last couple years there have been anywhere from 0-3 18+ teams. A seperate league was formed and has its own software, schedule. It is 4.5+ so nobody can claim sandbagging. There are no nationals or sectionals so nobody is trying to game the system. They charge less than USTA and there are plenty of teams and full rosters. So far it hasn't spread beyond this group yet, but given their success who knows?

 

[Sakkijarvi]

OP, I agree that is a fudging stupid format.

 

[Bash and Crash]

This actually has been tried and done in my area. Mens 4.5 18+ and 40+ are pretty much dead. There are zero 40+ teams this season and over the last couple years there have been anywhere from 0-3 18+ teams. A seperate league was formed and has its own software, schedule. It is 4.5+ so nobody can claim sandbagging. There are no nationals or sectionals so nobody is trying to game the system. They charge less than USTA and there are plenty of teams and full rosters. So far it hasn't spread beyond this group yet, but given their success who knows?

Well that's no fun, just flat out competition, no stacking or tanking to be rated lower to get to nationals. Who wants to play tennis just for great competition.
:shock:

 

[Spokewench]

No idea why this decision was made. If anyone on this forum is in the know, please share. All I know is what was posted on NorCal web site:

Team Match Format - Local League Season:
ONE line of singles and TWO lines of doubles

Team Match Format - District, Section, and National Championships:
TWO lines of singles and THREE lines of doubles

Levels: Men's and Women's teams in 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5+

4.5+ allows two 5.0 players to join the roster. One 5.0 player can participate per match. 5.0s must play singles or #1 doubles.

Age Requirement: Players must reach age 40 by the end of the calendar year.

I do not know why Norcal went with 1 singles and 2 dubs instead of 2 singles and 3 dubs, but I can hazard a guess. It is court availability. To host matches that need 5 courts instead of three can cause facilities issues.

 

[Angle Queen]

I do not know why Norcal went with 1 singles and 2 dubs instead of 2 singles and 3 dubs, but I can hazard a guess. It is court availability. To host matches that need 5 courts instead of three can cause facilities issues.

That is a serious issue around here even though we have LOTS of courts as I suspect NorCal does too. One of the biggest clubs around here (multiple court surfaces and teams) has already told their team captains to expect split match times (doubles first, then singles). That prospect will not make for some happy campers.

As I understand it, there'll be a big pow-wow in January to try to figure something out. It's all being done on the fly and that's too bad. Not sure National really thought this thing out from the logistics. Probably just looked at the (potential?) bank accounts first.

 

[Topaz]

I'm not old enough (yet) to participate...but around here they are not only doing 40+, but also 40+ mixed! I can not fathom how they are going to fit all the matches onto courts around here.

We actually already had one big pow-wow meeting...I didn't go but one of my captains did and sent a really good email wrap up. I'll have to see if I can find it...the amount of matches and leagues and divisions is mind boggling.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I'm not old enough (yet) to participate...but around here they are not only doing 40+, but also 40+ mixed! I can not fathom how they are going to fit all the matches onto courts around here.

We actually already had one big pow-wow meeting...I didn't go but one of my captains did and sent a really good email wrap up. I'll have to see if I can find it...the amount of matches and leagues and divisions is mind boggling.

We are having three doubles and two singles for 40+ starting in January. We actually have a new tennis facility in the county, so maybe that's how they will find enough courts in the dead of winter.

 

[TommieF]

Off topic but does anyone know when new ratings come out for Norcal?