norcal suspensions

[buddhatennis]

Anyone hear about the ratings suspensions in Norcal? My sources tell me suspensions are:
13 players with 3 months
21 players with 6 months
6 players with 12 months
1 player with 24 months

I believe this is because of ratings manipulations through a concerted effort by an organization that played out of public parks. Mostly, they focused on mixed and combo, mixed to win national titles and probably combo because they thought it was good practice and it wouldn't count.

Wonder if National and others will follow suit?

 

[sureshs]

@norcal was suspended? I was always suspicious of him.

 

[MaxTennis]

Anyone hear about the ratings suspensions in Norcal? My sources tell me suspensions are:
13 players with 3 months
21 players with 6 months
6 players with 12 months
1 player with 24 months

I believe this is because of ratings manipulations through a concerted effort by an organization that played out of public parks. Mostly, they focused on mixed and combo, mixed to win national titles and probably combo because they thought it was good practice and it wouldn't count.

Wonder if National and others will follow suit?

I heard about one captain and player from Sunnyvale who were suspended but not sure of any others.

 

[norcal]

Hey I didn't play HS or College tennis so according to the guidelines my -2.5 self rate is totally legit!

@norcal was suspended? I was always suspicious of him.

 

[HBK4life]

Nice to see a section doing something besides cheerleading the usual suspects.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Anyone hear about the ratings suspensions in Norcal? My sources tell me suspensions are:

I believe this is because of ratings manipulations through a concerted effort by an organization that played out of public parks. Mostly, they focused on mixed and combo, mixed to win national titles and probably combo because they thought it was good practice and it wouldn't count.

Wonder if National and others will follow suit?

What do you mean an "organization that played out of public parks"? Each team (organization) plays out of a single public park or private club.

 

[Addxyz]

I heard about one captain and player from Sunnyvale who were suspended but not sure of any others.

A local church also had captains suspended. I don't want to sound racist, but some of these teams are very easy to spot.

 

[Addxyz]

What do you mean an "organization that played out of public parks"? Each team (organization) plays out of a single public park or private club.

He's referring to being based out of a certain park in the area.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

He's referring to being based out of a certain park in the area.

What does he mean "Wonder if National and others will follow suit?".
Is he saying that these teams went to Nationals and won titles? And he's wondering if titles will be yanked?

 

[Addxyz]

What does he mean "Wonder if National and others will follow suit?".
Is he saying that these teams went to Nationals and won titles? And he's wondering if titles will be yanked?

He's probably referring to if there will be the same level of suspensions at the National level or at other sections.

If it's the team I think he's talking about, they won last year, didn't win this year.

 

[Thiemster]

Palo alto?

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

If a team/player is suspended it should all be publicly disclosed by usta. Including reasons why.
Not disclosing it only promotes cheating. And speculation.
We need full transparency!

 

[silverwyvern4]

He's probably referring to if there will be the same level of suspensions at the National level or at other sections.

If it's the team I think he's talking about, they won last year, didn't win this year.

Mixed 7.0?

 

[LuckyAC]

I noticed A.S. is still running 2025 teams, and he certainly had the strongest machine.

 

[Chairman3]

I hate to sound like a moron, as I have posed this question before buuuut....

What are people's motivation and who has the time to cheat and spend hours scheming to win in a pay-for-play rec league sport?

Anyone..anyone..beuller...?

 

[wolvesight]

I hate to sound like a moron, as I have posed this question before buuuut....

What are people's motivation and who has the time to cheat and spend hours scheming to win in a pay-for-play rec league sport?

Anyone..anyone..beuller...?

some people self-identify in strange ways. In cases like these, winning is all that matters to them.

 

[denoted]

Lot of discussion here on this topic, as you would expect, but I think it's a combination of things. As @FuzzyYellowBalls often points out, leisure is one key component. Competitiveness is also a part, as well as the desire to play coach or GM. The scheming is the juice, for the most part, as, and this is also a common point, most of the captains who do this do not actually play on the teams they create. I think an overlooked factor is a deep cynicism: the belief that everyone else is cheating, but at least I'm cheating for the right reason (to benefit me).

 

[Purestriker]

I hate to sound like a moron, as I have posed this question before buuuut....

What are people's motivation and who has the time to cheat and spend hours scheming to win in a pay-for-play rec league sport?

Anyone..anyone..beuller...?

It also does not take a lot of effort, nor a lot of time to build superteams that are better than their rating.

 

[Purestriker]

Lot of discussion here on this topic, as you would expect, but I think it's a combination of things. As @FuzzyYellowBalls often points out, leisure is one key component. Competitiveness is also a part, as well as the desire to play coach or GM. The scheming is the juice, for the most part, as, and this is also a common point, most of the captains who do this do not actually play on the teams they create. I think an overlooked factor is a deep cynicism: the belief that everyone else is cheating, but at least I'm cheating for the right reason (to benefit me).

Also seems to be more common with mens teams.

 

[Chairman3]

It also does not take a lot of effort, nor a lot of time to build superteams that are better than their rating.

Yeah ive never captained, so maybe not.
But from the outside it seems like alot of effort
Even if it's minimal effort, what's the point?

 

[travlerajm]

I hate to sound like a moron, as I have posed this question before buuuut....

What are people's motivation and who has the time to cheat and spend hours scheming to win in a pay-for-play rec league sport?

Anyone..anyone..beuller...?

 

[Purestriker]

Yeah ive never captained, so maybe not.
But from the outside it seems like alot of effort
Even if it's minimal effort, what's the point?

The only thing I can compare it to is golf. No different than sand bagging your handicap so you can win tournaments. They have massive egos and a win at all costs mentality.

 

[Chairman3]

The only thing I can compare it to is golf. No different than sand bagging your handicap so you can win tournaments. They have massive egos and a win at all costs mentality.

Makes sense, guess I'm not competitive enough, I only get so much gratification from winning haha

Appreciate the input as I genuinely can't comprehend the mindset.

 

[GrassCourtFan]

It's people playing fantasy sports with real people.

Someone who actually wants to get out there on court and play some tennis won't bother to get his teammates to manage scores or whatever. But someone who's treating the season as the real game they're playing would.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

It's people playing fantasy sports with real people.

Someone who actually wants to get out there on court and play some tennis won't bother to get his teammates to manage scores or whatever. But someone who's treating the season as the real game they're playing would.

And, not that it's the sky is falling end of the world thing, but let me give you a funny example about how this behavior in a city can impact new players. I knew some guys in their late 20s that picked up tennis during covid, good athletes, started at 3.0 and quickly were able to beat 3.5 players now and then. I suggested, for their own fun and improvement they should play up at 3.5 the next season. Without hesitation, in the most natural calm voice, they responded almost together...."no way, we want to win! We don't want to be bumped up!"

They bought in, their whole mindset was just win, not compete, not improve, win. Hopefully they do like playing tennis just enough so that if every match they had the opponents just greeted them and said we default now before the match begins, hopefully that wouldn't be preferred over playing, but it's almost as silly as that.

 

[TennisOTM]

Anyone hear about the ratings suspensions in Norcal? My sources tell me suspensions are:
13 players with 3 months
21 players with 6 months
6 players with 12 months
1 player with 24 months

I believe this is because of ratings manipulations through a concerted effort by an organization that played out of public parks. Mostly, they focused on mixed and combo, mixed to win national titles and probably combo because they thought it was good practice and it wouldn't count.

Wonder if National and others will follow suit?

I'm curious about what exactly they were supsended for and what was the evidence. "Ratings manipulations" is pretty fuzzy. Was it lying on the self-rating form? Players with multiple USTA accounts? If it had to do with match tanking, what was the evidence or proof that they lost games on purpose?

 

[HBK4life]

There is a team here with players that have gone to sectionals/nationals for 10 years plus. They cross over into mixed too. They don’t get bumped up and if they do it’s for one season and back down. Two of the players are involved with the USTA. Everyone knows,including the local office, it’s a conflict of interest. Nothing is done. If you call them out they clutch their pearls and act as if you’re accusing them of murder lol. Many teams in that level have simply disbanded because it’s not fun for them. Now there are less teams/ players. People hope they get busted like what is being talked about here but it’s not going to happen.

 

[Purestriker]

There is a team here with players that have gone to sectionals/nationals for 10 years plus. They cross over into mixed too. They don’t get bumped up and if they do it’s for one season and back down. Two of the players are involved with the USTA. Everyone knows,including the local office, it’s a conflict of interest. Nothing is done. If you call them out they clutch their pearls and act as if you’re accusing them of murder lol. Many teams in that level have simply disbanded because it’s not fun for them. Now there are less teams/ players. People hope they get busted like what is being talked about here but it’s not going to happen.

The local and state offices know and don’t care. It is good for business to have representation at sectionals.

 

[RHIR]

Hi, I just registered an account because this just took place to a team that some of my friends played in, and USTA NorCal really mishandled this one. Hopefully, we can dispell some rumors and maybe someone who have had experience dealing with these sorts of bureacratic shenanigan have some advice to reverse this fraudulant decision.

One of the team that received a mass suspencion was a team out of a public park, mostly of relatively new tennis players (started during the COVID years), but they practiced enthusiastically and because most of the players started around the same time, there's a fairly large group of players who play in multiple teams together, which lead to quick improvement of their games.
This apparently did not sit well with some of the teams playing out of membership-based tennis clubs, and one of the team out of a very "exclusive" club out of Palo Alto organized a mass grievance based on speculation, and USTA NorCal somehow decided that this was a valid grievance.

Do what you will with this, but the team that became the target of grievance were basically a group of dedicated newer players, and yes they were mostly Asians, but of quite diverse backgrounds and no prior grievances of any sort. The team that grievanced them were spearheaded by a pair of Silicon Valley executives with connections outside of tennis.

 

[TennisOTM]

Hi, I just registered an account because this just took place to a team that some of my friends played in, and USTA NorCal really mishandled this one. Hopefully, we can dispell some rumors and maybe someone who have had experience dealing with these sorts of bureacratic shenanigan have some advice to reverse this fraudulant decision.

One of the team that received a mass suspencion was a team out of a public park, mostly of relatively new tennis players (started during the COVID years), but they practiced enthusiastically and because most of the players started around the same time, there's a fairly large group of players who play in multiple teams together, which lead to quick improvement of their games.
This apparently did not sit well with some of the teams playing out of membership-based tennis clubs, and one of the team out of a very "exclusive" club out of Palo Alto organized a mass grievance based on speculation, and USTA NorCal somehow decided that this was a valid grievance.

Do what you will with this, but the team that became the target of grievance were basically a group of dedicated newer players, and yes they were mostly Asians, but of quite diverse backgrounds and no prior grievances of any sort. The team that grievanced them were spearheaded by a pair of Silicon Valley executives with connections outside of tennis.

Thanks for sharing this side of it. Can you provide any specifics on what sort of evidence or speculative evidence that the club provided in the grievance they filed?

 

[HBK4life]

The local and state offices know and don’t care. It is good for business to have representation at sectionals.

True. Some day it will just be a district of one team in this division.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

True. Some day it will just be a district of one team in this division.

So......what district is this, what facility or club is their home court?

 

[Purestriker]

Hi, I just registered an account because this just took place to a team that some of my friends played in, and USTA NorCal really mishandled this one. Hopefully, we can dispell some rumors and maybe someone who have had experience dealing with these sorts of bureacratic shenanigan have some advice to reverse this fraudulant decision.

One of the team that received a mass suspencion was a team out of a public park, mostly of relatively new tennis players (started during the COVID years), but they practiced enthusiastically and because most of the players started around the same time, there's a fairly large group of players who play in multiple teams together, which lead to quick improvement of their games.
This apparently did not sit well with some of the teams playing out of membership-based tennis clubs, and one of the team out of a very "exclusive" club out of Palo Alto organized a mass grievance based on speculation, and USTA NorCal somehow decided that this was a valid grievance.

Do what you will with this, but the team that became the target of grievance were basically a group of dedicated newer players, and yes they were mostly Asians, but of quite diverse backgrounds and no prior grievances of any sort. The team that grievanced them were spearheaded by a pair of Silicon Valley executives with connections outside of tennis.

Sounds like the start of a great script for a movie or documentary.

 

[jviss]

Hi, I just registered an account because this just took place to a team that some of my friends played in, and USTA NorCal really mishandled this one. Hopefully, we can dispell some rumors and maybe someone who have had experience dealing with these sorts of bureacratic shenanigan have some advice to reverse this fraudulant decision.

One of the team that received a mass suspencion was a team out of a public park, mostly of relatively new tennis players (started during the COVID years), but they practiced enthusiastically and because most of the players started around the same time, there's a fairly large group of players who play in multiple teams together, which lead to quick improvement of their games.
This apparently did not sit well with some of the teams playing out of membership-based tennis clubs, and one of the team out of a very "exclusive" club out of Palo Alto organized a mass grievance based on speculation, and USTA NorCal somehow decided that this was a valid grievance.

Do what you will with this, but the team that became the target of grievance were basically a group of dedicated newer players, and yes they were mostly Asians, but of quite diverse backgrounds and no prior grievances of any sort. The team that grievanced them were spearheaded by a pair of Silicon Valley executives with connections outside of tennis.

Drama! We have had some public vs private club issues in Sac but guessing this area is to the extreme. That’s a lot of suspensions though. That’s wild. They are so long too. Something isn’t adding up with the bureaucratic shenanigan take.
There were a bunch of upper-level players in Norcal (around the same area) who would blatantly tank the seasons that count towards ratings to stay lower rated. They went to Mixed and Tri-Level Nationals every year forever. Don’t think they even got suspended - think some of them just ended up getting bumped up. The “we practice a lot” doesn’t hold up well. That’s what everyone who gets a ratings grievance says. It’s a fine excuse for one season but after that it’s not. The other one people try is they are in so much pain they need to stay down a level but still end up playing on 5 teams.
I realty want to know what’s up. That’s a lot of people getting suspended – Anyone have that 4 page suspension log?

 

[Baby_yoda]

Adding to what RHIR said. I know several of the players on the team that was suspended and got to read the grievance. I found it concerning that it led to so many suspensions even though it contained a lot of blatantly false statements. I don’t want to give too many details for privacy reasons, but for example, they claimed one player was tanking in adult season by presenting results of a completely different player that has a higher rating and has the same first name with a similar last name. They also confused two players who are siblings and presented articles about the wrong sibling as evidence. They even created a table of results and win percentages where the numbers of matches played don’t correspond to what’s listed on the USTA website and where some of the win percentages were calculated wrong (to be higher). Even if there is some truth to the other things they said, it seems really irresponsible to not fact check more carefully before potentially getting a bunch of people suspended.

USTA has access to the correct data for all these players, but it didn’t seem like they actually checked each one individually before making this decision. Seems like they just lumped everyone together and suspended the whole team. The one that bugs me the most is that one player had actually emailed USTA to complain about being denied when they tried to appeal up after not getting bumped at the end of the last year. They played up this year and did get bumped when ratings came out. Some others were also playing up this year (and winning) and got bumped up. Why these players got suspended too is beyond me if the allegations are that they tried to suppress their rating.

 

[schmke]

Adding to what RHIR said. I know several of the players on the team that was suspended and got to read the grievance. I found it concerning that it led to so many suspensions even though it contained a lot of blatantly false statements. I don’t want to give too many details for privacy reasons, but for example, they claimed one player was tanking in adult season by presenting results of a completely different player that has a higher rating and has the same first name with a similar last name. They also confused two players who are siblings and presented articles about the wrong sibling as evidence. They even created a table of results and win percentages where the numbers of matches played don’t correspond to what’s listed on the USTA website and where some of the win percentages were calculated wrong (to be higher). Even if there is some truth to the other things they said, it seems really irresponsible to not fact check more carefully before potentially getting a bunch of people suspended.

USTA has access to the correct data for all these players, but it didn’t seem like they actually checked each one individually before making this decision. Seems like they just lumped everyone together and suspended the whole team. The one that bugs me the most is that one player had actually emailed USTA to complain about being denied when they tried to appeal up after not getting bumped at the end of the last year. They played up this year and did get bumped when ratings came out. Some others were also playing up this year (and winning) and got bumped up. Why these players got suspended too is beyond me if the allegations are that they tried to suppress their rating.

I too have seen some of the grievance documents and decision, but have only perused them and have not done any conclusive fact checking or analysis. But on the surface, while I'm generally one that would love to see cheaters identified and rooted out, it feels like NorCal went too far here, or it is at least surprising they went as far as they did.

While it is possible some of the players did self-rate too low, or should be rated higher and their rating is suppressed due to how the system works, some of that is an indictment of the system and upholding the grievance seems to be the section using the grievance to get the result a better system is failing to do. But doing it in a blanket way for an entire team feels a bit too much.

Again, I have not analyzed everything claimed or closely looked at player records to see if there is a clear indication they have managed scores or used one league to get a rating and another to win, it is possible some or a good portion of the claims are true, or perhaps not. Just my observation from what I've read thus far.

 

[brokenRPM]

>

 

[TennisOTM]

The one that bugs me the most is that one player had actually emailed USTA to complain about being denied when they tried to appeal up after not getting bumped at the end of the last year.

If this part is true, wth. The player tried to appeal UP and got denied, then later got suspended for supressing/manipulating his rating?? How on earth...

 

[Addxyz]

I too have seen some of the grievance documents and decision, but have only perused them and have not done any conclusive fact checking or analysis. But on the surface, while I'm generally one that would love to see cheaters identified and rooted out, it feels like NorCal went too far here, or it is at least surprising they went as far as they did.

While it is possible some of the players did self-rate too low, or should be rated higher and their rating is suppressed due to how the system works, some of that is an indictment of the system and upholding the grievance seems to be the section using the grievance to get the result a better system is failing to do. But doing it in a blanket way for an entire team feels a bit too much.

Again, I have not analyzed everything claimed or closely looked at player records to see if there is a clear indication they have managed scores or used one league to get a rating and another to win, it is possible some or a good portion of the claims are true, or perhaps not. Just my observation from what I've read thus far.

Norcal goes to town on the the punishments here, but turns a blind eye to the other teams' systematic manipulations.

 

[Remioli]

Living in Utah, we have the king of sandbagging here, so this drama is really interesting/funny to me. They let him play with 5.0's in the 4.0 leagues every single year, and nothing happens. The excuse the guy above "they just practiced a lot and improved REALLY quickly" is the same excuse the Utah guy uses. It's ridiculous for the Utah guy because he's blatantly cheating, but idk about the norcal situation. Would love to hear updates about this. I've never heard of bans happening in my life.

 

[silverwyvern4]

Does the USTA publish a list of suspended players?

 

[Purestriker]

Adding to what RHIR said. I know several of the players on the team that was suspended and got to read the grievance. I found it concerning that it led to so many suspensions even though it contained a lot of blatantly false statements. I don’t want to give too many details for privacy reasons, but for example, they claimed one player was tanking in adult season by presenting results of a completely different player that has a higher rating and has the same first name with a similar last name. They also confused two players who are siblings and presented articles about the wrong sibling as evidence. They even created a table of results and win percentages where the numbers of matches played don’t correspond to what’s listed on the USTA website and where some of the win percentages were calculated wrong (to be higher). Even if there is some truth to the other things they said, it seems really irresponsible to not fact check more carefully before potentially getting a bunch of people suspended.

USTA has access to the correct data for all these players, but it didn’t seem like they actually checked each one individually before making this decision. Seems like they just lumped everyone together and suspended the whole team. The one that bugs me the most is that one player had actually emailed USTA to complain about being denied when they tried to appeal up after not getting bumped at the end of the last year. They played up this year and did get bumped when ratings came out. Some others were also playing up this year (and winning) and got bumped up. Why these players got suspended too is beyond me if the allegations are that they tried to suppress their rating.

They can appeal the suspensions to a board of review, if they in fact have false data.

 

[gooberwho]

Does the USTA publish a list of suspended players?

Norcal used to, but I don't think it's made public anymore since COVID.

 

[Baby_yoda]

They can appeal the suspensions to a board of review, if they in fact have false data.

I think they are appealing, but the captain already sent a very detailed rebuttal that countered all the false claims when this grievance was first reviewed. So I guess I’m not optimistic that an appeal will go any differently, especially if it’s the same committee reviewing the appeal too.

 

[Roforot]

Do what you will with this, but the team that became the target of grievance were basically a group of dedicated newer players, and yes they were mostly Asians, but of quite diverse backgrounds and no prior grievances of any sort. The team that grievanced them were spearheaded by a pair of Silicon Valley executives with connections outside of tennis.

Just wondering but how did sandbagging get tied to asians? That guy from Utah isnt asian?

 

[drivophd]

The one that bugs me the most is that one player had actually emailed USTA to complain about being denied when they tried to appeal up after not getting bumped at the end of the last year. They played up this year and did get bumped when ratings came out.

Just to add a voice to the conversation of someone who’s not associated or friends with the group of suspended players:

This player in particular was one of the most egregious tankers of all. She tanked her dynamic rating so low during adult season that the computer wouldn’t grant her an automatic appeal up at the beginning of 2024, despite going to nationals for numerous mixed teams and dominating in combo as well. Strange how this trait is common across all of these teams…

My theory is that NorCal realized they finally had to do something about the systemic ratings management orchestrated by this group after the facility they play out of swept 40+ Mixed Sectionals in all of 6.0, 7.0, 8.0 and 9.0 in 2024.

 

[LeftyMagic]

Hi, I just registered an account because this just took place to a team that some of my friends played in, and USTA NorCal really mishandled this one. Hopefully, we can dispell some rumors and maybe someone who have had experience dealing with these sorts of bureacratic shenanigan have some advice to reverse this fraudulant decision.

One of the team that received a mass suspencion was a team out of a public park, mostly of relatively new tennis players (started during the COVID years), but they practiced enthusiastically and because most of the players started around the same time, there's a fairly large group of players who play in multiple teams together, which lead to quick improvement of their games.
This apparently did not sit well with some of the teams playing out of membership-based tennis clubs, and one of the team out of a very "exclusive" club out of Palo Alto organized a mass grievance based on speculation, and USTA NorCal somehow decided that this was a valid grievance.

Do what you will with this, but the team that became the target of grievance were basically a group of dedicated newer players, and yes they were mostly Asians, but of quite diverse backgrounds and no prior grievances of any sort. The team that grievanced them were spearheaded by a pair of Silicon Valley executives with connections outside of tennis.

this thread is wild. former d1 athlete here, if u need an extreme win at all costs mentality over 40 yrs old, you’re a loser. sorry its that simple. play at the right level play hard for 90 minutes, try to win, and then go home back to an adult life. and a membership based club complaining abt park based players - another set of entitled losers. what is wrong w ppl? this is what deters some from “league play”. ill stick to age based tournaments, to me its fair.

 

[HBK4life]

this thread is wild. former d1 athlete here, if u need an extreme win at all costs mentality over 40 yrs old, you’re a loser. sorry its that simple. play at the right level play hard for 90 minutes, try to win, and then go home back to an adult life. and a membership based club complaining abt park based players - another set of entitled losers. what is wrong w ppl? this is what deters some from “league play”. ill stick to age based tournaments, to me its fair.

New to USTA I see lol.

 

[norcal]

This player in particular was one of the most egregious tankers of all. She tanked her dynamic rating so low during adult season that the computer wouldn’t grant her an automatic appeal up at the beginning of 2024, despite going to nationals for numerous mixed teams and dominating in combo as well

I love when you hear the other side of the story.

 

[Baby_yoda]

Just to add a voice to the conversation of someone who’s not associated or friends with the group of suspended players:

This player in particular was one of the most egregious tankers of all. She tanked her dynamic rating so low during adult season that the computer wouldn’t grant her an automatic appeal up at the beginning of 2024, despite going to nationals for numerous mixed teams and dominating in combo as well. Strange how this trait is common across all of these teams…

My theory is that NorCal realized they finally had to do something about the systemic ratings management orchestrated by this group after the facility they play out of swept 40+ Mixed Sectionals in all of 6.0, 7.0, 8.0 and 9.0 in 2024.

I don’t think we’re talking about the same person. The one I’m referring to isn’t old enough for 40+. She did go to nationals but won all but one of her 18+ matches in 2023 in straight sets (including 6 matches at 18+ nationals). This was her first season playing USTA. Most of these wins were very lopsided, so she wasn’t tanking as far as I can tell. She could’ve probably self-rated higher based on those results but I don’t think we can assume she self-rated too low on purpose since there’s evidence she came to the same conclusion and did want to get bumped up. Following the USTA’s advice on how to make sure she bumps up in 2024, she played up and did well enough to get bumped. Nothing about that sounds like tanking to me. Sounds like you’re probably thinking of someone who’s been obviously tanking for years.