notching vs stiffness, hybrids

[zuzu70]

So I tried multifilaments. They fray after 4 hitting sessions. They don't break until about 15 hitting sessions, but if they're too frayed, they begin to notch and that makes them act stiff like a board, even though they started out being a forgiving multi.

Tried hybrid setup (soft poly main, multi cross). Again, first 3 or 4 hitting sessions are good, but hybrid notches even more severely than a full multi. It basically glues the strings in place so they don't move...the opposite of what I want. I've tried different brands of multi, but they all notch a lot. I hear so many people talk about hybrid stringing. I don't understand how people keep their hybrid setups from notching.

I don't help but wonder if a soft full poly, that won't notch and can actually move smoothly, might be better for the arm than a multi or hybrid that notches and eventually gets sort of locked in. I know to string the poly lower. Any thoughts?

 

[sheaunien]

What multi are you using?
What hybrid are you using?
What racket are you using?

 

[zuzu70]

I tried a bunch of different multis: velocity, hdx tour, biphase, prince something or other. They all notched. 2 dif racquets, both 16X19.
I did have the poly on the main / multi on the cross. Maybe that was my mistake. But with how badly the multi's frayed and notched, I figured a multi would probably break within a couple hours if I used the multi as the main. But I admit I have never tried it M/P, only P/M.

 

[sheaunien]

Are you using round poly or edge poly?

 

[LOBALOT]

I think we are misusing terms here. If the soft string (multi) is in the main sliding across a stiffer cross (i.e. poly) the multi will notch by sliding across the poly cross but continue to slide freely across the poly.

If the stiffer string especially if shaped is the main (i.e. poly) and the softer string is in the cross (i.e. multi) the multi will fray and the main strings will lock.

If you have a full bed of multi you will get both occurring but the fraying of the cross lock everything up.

Why not put the multi in the main and the round poly in the cross and prevent the whole thing from locking up?

 

[zuzu70]

Why not put the multi in the main and the round poly in the cross and prevent the whole thing from locking up?

I guess I should try that. I had assumed that since (all other things being equal) the main strings are more prone to breaking, that putting the multi as the main string in a hybrid would just equal even faster breakage. Was that an incorrect assumption?

 

[zuzu70]

Are you using round poly or edge poly?

Round

 

[LOBALOT]

I guess I should try that. I had assumed that since (all other things being equal) the main strings are more prone to breaking, that putting the multi as the main string in a hybrid would just equal even faster breakage. Was that an incorrect assumption?

You are right. a multi/poly hybrid is not for everyone especially string breakers but it is certainly worth trying.

You do need to be careful to choose a multi that is very slippery and holds tension well so it holds up to the abuse. Also per above the poly should be round and slippery.

With use you will see the multi notching as it saws across the poly until it snaps. Hopefully, that duration is something you can live with. If not then you can try a thicker gauge. If that doesn't help and you are still not satisfied with how long it lasted then perhaps you need to pursue other options.

If the multi starts locking out of place then it has lost tension and either you have selected a multi that doesn't hold tension well or you are not a string breaker (I am not a string breaker) in which case the string job is done and it is ready for a restring.

If you search this forum there are several suggestions for multis that make a good main in a hybrid.

 

[zuzu70]

If you have a full bed of multi you will get both occurring but the fraying of the cross lock everything up.

Thank you, Lobalot. I think you've explained it so I finally understand. I looked again at my strings, and you're absolutely right. Fullbed multi: the mains are notched, and the crosses are frayed. There's a definite difference between the notching and the fraying. So, asking for your (or others') opinion: if I get fraying after about 4-6 hours on a fullbed multi, should I try multi main / poly cross, or should I just go straight to full poly because the multi main will break too soon? I can restring every 1-2 months, but restringing more often than that is too much hassle.

 

[sheaunien]

4-6 hrs than fraying, does it brake after that?
What gauge and brand of multi are you using?

 

[LOBALOT]

For sure. I personally (at my avg rec Joe kind of player) do not like a full bed of multi or gut for that mater just for that reason. I think they perform better in the mains when they have something slippery that resists fraying to slide against. If it is fraying that quickly it sounds like you are a better player than me and it is performing even worse for you so I would look to a hybrid next. You could try full poly but as long as you are on this path why not follow the progression and try the hybrid next.

As far as how frequently a restring is acceptable that is up to you. For me 1-2 months is fine. 4-6 hours would not be fine. I will also add that full poly dies rather quickly too so it is not a panacea.

I would be careful on the multi and poly you choose for your hybrid like I said I would pick a slippery multi that holds tension well (Head Velocity and Prince Premier Control are 2 I have tried and like). I would choose a round slippery poly based on your desired stiffness (For me I like Weiss Cannon Silverstring, Lux 4G Soft, Isospeed Cream. You may like others that are more stiff or less.).

 

[zuzu70]

If the multi starts locking out of place then it has lost tension and either you have selected a multi that doesn't hold tension well or you are not a string breaker

I'm not sure what you mean by locking out of place. You mean like the mains "need straightening"?

 

[LOBALOT]

I'm not sure what you mean by locking out of place. You mean like the mains "need straightening"?

Exactly, when you have to keep straightening them.

 

[Shroud]

If the multi starts locking out of place then it has lost tension and either you have selected a multi that doesn't hold tension well or you are not a string breaker (I am not a string breaker) in which case the string job is done and it is ready for a restring.

I had a problem with this explanation. Its the notching that stops snapback and locks the stringbed. Tension loss not so much.

 

[LOBALOT]

So if I start with a taught string say at 50 pounds the tension is going to help the string resist the friction of the cross and snap back.

If the tension then drops to 40 pounds the only way that can take place is the string is longer within the span of the hoop. There is no way that a string with slack is going to overcome the friction of the cross and snap back. Notching in the main string that has kept its tension is not going to preclude the string from sliding across the cross.

 

[PrinceYonex]

Thank you, Lobalot. I think you've explained it so I finally understand. I looked again at my strings, and you're absolutely right. Fullbed multi: the mains are notched, and the crosses are frayed. There's a definite difference between the notching and the fraying. So, asking for your (or others') opinion: if I get fraying after about 4-6 hours on a fullbed multi, should I try multi main / poly cross, or should I just go straight to full poly because the multi main will break too soon? I can restring every 1-2 months, but restringing more often than that is too much hassle.

You could also try a gut/poly hybrid. It’s obviously more expensive than a multi/poly, but the gut will probably hold tension longer than a multi.
Or, buy a stringing machine and string more often.

 

[BenC]

if I get fraying after about 4-6 hours on a fullbed multi, should I try multi main / poly cross, or should I just go straight to full poly because the multi main will break too soon? I can restring every 1-2 months, but restringing more often than that is too much hassle.

multi main/poly cross will probably stay unlocked and playable until the mains break, but it will most likely break even sooner than full-bed multi because of the increased sawing back-and-forth that occurs with unlocked stringbeds.

In most hybrids, one string will be harder than the other. The harder string will saw into the softer string during impacts. I've found this leads to 3 general failure modes:
1) crosses harder than mains (e.g. syngut/poly) -> mains notch and break
2) mains harder than crosses (e.g. poly/syngut) -> crosses notch or coating wears off, stringbed locks up and becomes stiff
3) tension loss (usually poly), stringbed becomes uncontrollable due to launch angle changes

Then you have more exotic setups like Kevlar/ZX where the ZX is utterly impervious to notching.

 

[Shroud]

So if I start with a taught string say at 50 pounds the tension is going to help the string resist the friction of the cross and snap back.

If the tension then drops to 40 pounds the only way that can take place is the string is longer within the span of the hoop. There is no way that a string with slack is going to overcome the friction of the cross and snap back. Notching in the main string that has kept its tension is not going to preclude the string from sliding across the cross.

Higher tension increases friction
Notching increases friction
lower tension decreases friction
Higher the friction the less there is snapback.

I also dont think a 40lb strung racquet is "slack". Said another way, no one picks up their 40lb strung racquet and then says "man its slack". No one looks at their 40lb mains that were strung at 50lbs and sees slack.

Its a simple test. String up full syngut at any tension you like. Then hit a few. In the beginning you will get snapback. And a few hits later it will lock as it notches. Then put in some string savers, like a whole pack and you will see it now snaps back because you essentially removed the notching. Or if string savers are a challenge, play with it till it gets locked and then restring the cross and alter the weave. You will see it snapback for the first few hits till it notches.

 

[LOBALOT]

Higher tension increases friction
Notching increases friction
lower tension decreases friction
Higher the friction the less there is snapback.

I also dont think a 40lb strung racquet is "slack". Said another way, no one picks up their 40lb strung racquet and then says "man its slack". No one looks at their 40lb mains that were strung at 50lbs and sees slack.

Its a simple test. String up full syngut at any tension you like. Then hit a few. In the beginning you will get snapback. And a few hits later it will lock as it notches. Then put in some string savers, like a whole pack and you will see it now snaps back because you essentially removed the notching. Or if string savers are a challenge, play with it till it gets locked and then restring the cross and alter the weave. You will see it snapback for the first few hits till it notches.

I agree from this perspective actually friction is a constant. The higher the tension the more force is applied between the two strings which increases the resistive frictional force opposing the strings movement. Likewise the notch will provide more surface area for the friction to take affect. However, all this is minimal in comparison to when I start out with a string spanned across a fixed distance that has dropped tension (and thus will have more slack than before) and the inability of the string to now overcome the friction (either notched or not) and snap back into position.

When I referenced 40 pounds as slack what I indicated was the string started at 50 pounds and dropped to say 40 (as an example). When that happens there sure is slack in the string as where else did that tension go?

It is also a simple test to string up a racquet say with OGSM at 50. Lets not even worry about notching. Simply grab onto one of the strings and tug the heck out of it until it has dropped tension and then displace it to one side. It will not snap back notch or not.

 

[zuzu70]

restring the cross and alter the weave

Is that a real thing that frugal people really do, restringing only the crosses?? Or are you saying just for demonstration purposes?

 

[Shroud]

Is that a real thing that frugal people really do, restringing only the crosses?? Or are you saying just for demonstration purposes?

Its a thing. I always do it.