Notebook computers - MacBook vs Windows machine?

[galain]

Looking for a little help on this one. I have never owned a notebook before - and I'm looking to buy one in the next month. I've looked at Macs before but have never spent any decent time with them. My wife has one - I used it for 2 weeks and didn't like it because I felt it was second guessing me all the time - but I can see that that would be pretty easy to get used to. I know most of the arguments against buying a Mac - no software, poor compatibility with Windows users, etc.

I've only ever used standard Windows PC's and have never had a single problem with the ones I've owned. Nothing. No crashes, no freezes - no issues at all. A few of my Mac buddies will quietly admit that they've had to take their machines back to the store on occasion, but then , i know plenty of pc users in the same boat.

I have heard NOTHING good about Vista. Not a single thing.

I have heard lots of good stuff about OS X (Leopard?? The recently released one).

I will be taking this machine overseas with me next year. I don't use my computer for anything other than word processing, internetting, playing music and organising my life. I may start to dabble with digital media soon though.

I am open to any insight from anyone who has some experience with both.Thanks in advance.

 

[Topaz]

MACbook Pro!

Leopard is the bomb. And if you are going to dabble with digital media, than Mac is the way to go.

Also, I'm horribly biased toward Mac, but then again...there is a reason for that bias, and that reason is the product.

 

[movdqa]

We have a MacBook Pro, three Dell Windows notebooks running XP Home or XP Pro and one HP notebook running Windows XP Pro x64 edition and Windows XP Home in dual-boot mode.

The MacBook Pro can get five to six hours on battery using Mac OSX. Battery life running Windows is about half that. It weighs a little over five pounds, has a LED-backlit screen which probably adds 30 minutes to battery life and a bunch of other nice features including integrated Bluetooth, Wireless pre-N and the Intel Santa Rosa chipset.

The MacBook Pro sounds like overkill for what you're going to be using it for but some find that they use their notebooks for much more than they had planned after finding out how convenient they are on the go.

If you need to run Windows programs, you can just get a copy of Windows ($98 at my local store) and run it either using Boot Camp or as a virtual machine. Boot Camp allows you to run Mac OSX or Windows. A virtual machine would allow you to run Windows applications while running Mac OSX. Parallels allows you to have Windows windows as if they were Mac OSX windows instead of requiring you to use a Windows manager. We have Boot Camp on our MacBook Pro so the kids can boot up Windows if they prefer that OS.

One of the quirks at Apple right now is that only the 15 inch MacBook Pro comes with the LED-backlit screen. Their 17 inch MacBook Pro and the regular MacBooks don't have it. Conventional CCFL backlights contain mercury, get dimmer over time and use more power. At some point, Apple will go with LED as will the rest of the industry.

Making your decision harder is that Intel just release their new Penryn chip. They only release one high-end desktop chip and a bunch of server chips. Mobile chips are expected out in 2008. Penryn is a die-shrink from 65 nm
process technology to 45 nm process technology and this means that they
can fit the same number of transistors in half the space. They developed a
new gate technology that dramatically reduces power consumption as well
and allows them to get to much higher clock frequencies. These chips have
50% more cache and have IPC (Instructions per clock) improvements.

I'm hoping that Apple introduces new MacBooks at MacWorld in January. I personally think that the new chips are worth waiting for if you can wait.

 

[Morpheus]

Start by decided Mac or PC. Then decide which specific computer.

I use both systems, but my Mac is much, much less maintenance intensive--I am always attending to my PC, but the Mac is solid. That means a lot to me, so I have migrated to the Mac platform for home use.

 

[StealthGnome]

Mac Pro's provides a huge performance/price ratio provided you can spend $1500-2000.

I stick with Windows because it doesn't cause all the problems it's hyped up to have. No need to switch when your applications are on Windows. Creating a partition and switching OS's is a good idea but it's just a waste of space.

In reality, Vista isn't as flawed as its set up to be. Don't be afraid.

I would look at price first in your situation. When buying, try to get a Core 2 Duo processor with 4MB of L2 Cache. 2GB of RAM and a graphic card. It will help in the long run.

Dells are very cheap when you use a 30% off coupon code. $700-800 for a well packed laptop.

 

[LuckyR]

If you don't play games and have a lot of money for a cool looking machine: get a Mac

If you don't have a lot of money get a PC

If you are going to do something like video editting: get a Mac

If you play games: get a Sager.

 

[jhhachamp]

I have heard NOTHING good about Vista. Not a single thing.

Well, I have had Vista for a couple months and so far everything is great. Now you have something good about Vista.

 

[Mister G]

It's all down to money really...

If you are an experienced user, and you know how to maintain a PC and keep it running, why not?

If you dont mind spending the extra cash and dont want a higher maintenance computer, a MAC will do as its the perfect computer for "dumb" users.

Mind you, the last time I checked, you could get a PC with the same specifications of a MAC at almost half the price...

Since you are not using your computer for any specific task, you might as well save your hard earned cash (unless you like spending it) and get a PC since its much more flexible (going abroad as well - repair, applications, components, etc)

Good luck!

 

[spiritboy3]

theres really no need to explain the whole concept about MAc or windows.... everyone noes the pros and cons between each and window would have more pros for a pretty NORMAL computer user with intense gaming. well i would reccomend u a alienware laptop if ur gonna buy a laptop. i would personally get a desktop for intense gaming reccomend u intel core 2 duo E6850 or quad core 6600 2 gb ram and window xp, i personally wont reccomend window vista but ur own choice..

 

[Mister G]

Alienware... Why the HELL would you pay so much for an overpriced product?

 

[angharad]

i would personally get a desktop for intense gaming reccomend u intel core 2 duo E6850 or quad core 6600 2 gb ram and window xp, i personally wont reccomend window vista but ur own choice..

This is one of those things I wonder about...I can understand not wanting to upgrade your current machine to Vista, but why on earth would you get a new machine with a soon-to-be-legacy OS? Vista has a few problems, but it'll stay current for much longer than XP.

 

[MTChong]

I agree with one of the above posters: definitely choose an OS first and then from there, choose a notebook.

However, provided you go with a PC, I'd recommend a Lenovo Thinkpad; they're well-built (at least for now).

 

[J-man]

I would probably good with the Macbook or if you could download windows OP to replace the Vista

 

[Gmedlo]

With your needs, a mac wins, hands down. Unless you're doing a lot of gaming, coding, or you have an extremely intensive knowledge of computers, you don't need to wade through the problems of a PC.


I used to be able to keep a PC running correctly when I spent ~5 hours a day on one, but now that I've slowed down on that and no longer have all of the skills I used to, I can't go a week on my PC without some problem popping up. Either there's a corrupt driver on my pc's wireless card that I have to download on my mac (which never has this problem) and transfer to my pc, or a fan goes dead and it won't stay on for more than 15 minutes without overheating.

The nice thing is, with a mac, as long as you have applecare, if pretty much ANY problem pops up, you just take it to your local apple store and they fix it right away, no bill other than the yearly fee for applecare. That is if you have a problem, which is highly unlikely with a mac.

As for the price, it's all about the software. When a pc can do half of what a mac can, out of the box, I might consider buying one.

 

[movdqa]

Mind you, the last time I checked, you could get a PC with the same specifications of a MAC at almost half the price...

A low-end MBP costs $2K. The specs are:

2 GB RAM, upgradeable to 2 GB
Core 2 Duo 2.2 Ghz
Santa Rosa Chipset
Wireless Pre N
Bluetooth
LED-backlit screen
Built in video camera
5.4 pounds
Fairly hefty application suite
15 inch screen
NVidia 8600 video

Dell had a similar model for $1,448 but it didn't have the nVidia 8600 and the LED backlit screen. It's pretty hard to configure laptops in the low-end with the nVidia 8600 and LED backlit screens are very, very rare.

 

[movdqa]

With your needs, a mac wins, hands down. Unless you're doing a lot of gaming, coding, or you have an extremely intensive knowledge of computers, you don't need to wade through the problems of a PC.


I used to be able to keep a PC running correctly when I spent ~5 hours a day on one, but now that I've slowed down on that and no longer have all of the skills I used to, I can't go a week on my PC without some problem popping up. Either there's a corrupt driver on my pc's wireless card that I have to download on my mac (which never has this problem) and transfer to my pc, or a fan goes dead and it won't stay on for more than 15 minutes without overheating.

The nice thing is, with a mac, as long as you have applecare, if pretty much ANY problem pops up, you just take it to your local apple store and they fix it right away, no bill other than the yearly fee for applecare. That is if you have a problem, which is highly unlikely with a mac.

As for the price, it's all about the software. When a pc can do half of what a mac can, out of the box, I might consider buying one.

One thing about Apple Macs. If you buy one at an Apple Store, they give you an incredible level of service.

 

[movdqa]

This is one of those things I wonder about...I can understand not wanting to upgrade your current machine to Vista, but why on earth would you get a new machine with a soon-to-be-legacy OS? Vista has a few problems, but it'll stay current for much longer than XP.

Vista isn't accepted well in the corporate world. And there can be all kinds of problems using software at work or even just using VPN to get into the corporate network.

Vista in danger of being bypassed by businesses
IDG News Service 11/15/07

Elizabeth Montalbano, IDG News Service, New York Bureau

It will be one year that Windows Vista has been available to businesses on Nov. 30, yet many companies still are waiting until the release of Vista's first service pack to upgrade. But with Microsoft planning to release the next version of Windows, code-named Windows 7, in late 2009 or 2010, there remains a strong possibility that companies might skip over Vista altogether in favor of the next release of Windows.

For this reason, one East Coast IT consultant who specializes in Microsoft products said that unless Windows Vista SP1 really smooths over the problems people are having with Vista, "there's a good chance many people will hold on to XP until the next version of Windows."

"They're just so many little usability issues," said the consultant, who asked not to be named, but who has nearly 20 years of experience with Microsoft software. "I can just imagine when the next one comes out, Microsoft will actually get it right and everyone will breathe a sigh of relief."

Michael Cherry, an analyst with Directions on Microsoft who said he has experienced his own frustrations with Vista's quirky performance issues, agreed that if Microsoft releases Windows 7 on schedule, there may be "less of a need to upgrade to Vista" for businesses that follow the typical "every other release" rule for Windows.

In Cherry's opinion, Windows XP Service Pack 2, a major security release for XP, was less a service pack than an upgrade to Windows. Businesses running this version of Windows may choose to bypass Vista and opt to install Windows 7 instead if it is released in the next few years, depending on where they are in their hardware upgrade cycle. The release of a third service pack for XP, which Microsoft has confirmed is in the works, supports this theory, since it adds "a couple more years" to the viability of XP in the enterprise.

http://www.itworld.com/Comp/2218/071115vistaskip/

 

[Voltron]

We have a MacBook Pro, three Dell Windows notebooks running XP Home or XP Pro and one HP notebook running Windows XP Pro x64 edition and Windows XP Home in dual-boot mode.

The MacBook Pro can get five to six hours on battery using Mac OSX. Battery life running Windows is about half that. It weighs a little over five pounds, has a LED-backlit screen which probably adds 30 minutes to battery life and a bunch of other nice features including integrated Bluetooth, Wireless pre-N and the Intel Santa Rosa chipset.

The MacBook Pro sounds like overkill for what you're going to be using it for but some find that they use their notebooks for much more than they had planned after finding out how convenient they are on the go.

If you need to run Windows programs, you can just get a copy of Windows ($98 at my local store) and run it either using Boot Camp or as a virtual machine. Boot Camp allows you to run Mac OSX or Windows. A virtual machine would allow you to run Windows applications while running Mac OSX. Parallels allows you to have Windows windows as if they were Mac OSX windows instead of requiring you to use a Windows manager. We have Boot Camp on our MacBook Pro so the kids can boot up Windows if they prefer that OS.

One of the quirks at Apple right now is that only the 15 inch MacBook Pro comes with the LED-backlit screen. Their 17 inch MacBook Pro and the regular MacBooks don't have it. Conventional CCFL backlights contain mercury, get dimmer over time and use more power. At some point, Apple will go with LED as will the rest of the industry.

Making your decision harder is that Intel just release their new Penryn chip. They only release one high-end desktop chip and a bunch of server chips. Mobile chips are expected out in 2008. Penryn is a die-shrink from 65 nm
process technology to 45 nm process technology and this means that they
can fit the same number of transistors in half the space. They developed a
new gate technology that dramatically reduces power consumption as well
and allows them to get to much higher clock frequencies. These chips have
50% more cache and have IPC (Instructions per clock) improvements.

I'm hoping that Apple introduces new MacBooks at MacWorld in January. I personally think that the new chips are worth waiting for if you can wait.

Fantastic post, although you pretty much stole my thunder.

 

[quest01]

I think PCs are a lot better. MACs are overpriced, they have less hardware and software. PCs are better for gaming and pretty much everything else however I use the Safari browser on my PC. Also I never had any issues or problems with Windows Vista like many people have mentioned.

 

[movdqa]

I think PCs are a lot better. MACs are overpriced, they have less hardware and software. PCs are better for gaming and pretty much everything else however I use the Safari browser on my PC. Also I never had any issues or problems with Windows Vista like many people have mentioned.

I think that you have to evaluate the price range that you are in. If you go to Dell or HP, you may find that similarly equipped systems from Apple, particularly in notebooks, cost less at Apple. You also have to consider the superior service that you get at the Apple store where you are well-treated by knowledgeable staff. Quite a bit unlike the service you get from CompUSA, Best Buy, WalMart or some guy in an Indian call center.

Something else that you get the Windows doesn't provide in the mainstream is native 64-bit computing. The latest release of Mac OSX is native 64-bit so you get to use a lot more of your CPU. Current Intel and AMD CPU chips support 32-bit mode and 64-bit mode. Most Windows XP and Vista operating systems shipped run in 32-bit mode. Windows has had 64-bit variants of their major operating systems for several years but they have not actively marketed them and driver issues tend to be much more of a problem on the 64-bit platforms compared to the 32-bit platforms. I'm running XP x64 edition on two of my systems and have been using it for many years. I do some Windows x64 development.

Using native 64-bit mode has many advantages:

- 64-bit integer arithmetic as opposed to composited 32-bit arithmetic to emulate 64-bit arithmetic
- > 4 GB of address space (32-bits has a 4 GB address space limit)
- 16 general purpose registers (as opposed to 8 in 32-bit mode)
- 16 multimedia registers (as oppsed to 8 in 32-bit mode). The multimedia registers are 128-bits wide and can do 1, 2, 4, 8 or 16 operations per SIMD instruction and can generally improve IPC (instructions per clock) with the right algorithms.
- Additional instruction variants that operate on 64-bits at a time.

If you do multiplatform development, the Unix base of Mac OSX is quite a bit more natural than having to use cygwin on Windows.

The evidence that you provided on Vista is anecdotal. We haven't deployed Vista where I work and you're on your own in trying to get applications to work if you have Vista.

I have a Vista kit sitting on my bookshelf. It's been there since March or April. I haven't seen a good reason to install it. And I've heard of many reasons not to install it. I have users that send me complaints that my software has problems on Vista. It works for some users and not for others. My general response is that I don't support Vista. I've heard that many other software products have the same problem.

 

[fishuuuuu]

Look for the online coupons and get an HP notebook. You can get one that fits your needs (portability or media) for roughly $1000 or under that will not be dated anytime in the foreseeable future.

I have tried time and again with Dell but I have been given the run around too many times, and I refuse to purchase their products due to their extremely poor customer support and hardware. Their equipment is marginal and reasonably priced, but if you get a lemon, beware!

 

[movdqa]

Look for the online coupons and get an HP notebook. You can get one that fits your needs (portability or media) for roughly $1000 or under that will not be dated anytime in the foreseeable future.

I have tried time and again with Dell but I have been given the run around too many times, and I refuse to purchase their products due to their extremely poor customer support and hardware. Their equipment is marginal and reasonably priced, but if you get a lemon, beware!

One of the downsides to machines from HP is that they don't give you any of the installation disks unlike Dell. Dell provides OEM disks so that you can do a repair install of Windows if you have some minor OS damage. HP expects you to make your own image backups. This requires a few writable DVDs or a huge number of writable CDs and a few hours of your time. HP also loads their machines with crapware that can take hours to remove.

I have 6 systems from Dell. The oldest is a laptop which is about 7 years old. It still works fine. I have three HP systems - two desktops and one laptop. The laptop is over four years old and works fine. One of the desktops that's about 18 months old has a bad power supply and is out of service. The other desktop is about 15 months old and is getting noisy. These were both $1,000+ systems.

The MacBook Pro beats all of the other systems; it's no contest.

 

[galain]

Thank you all for your responses. It was a big help. I should have clarified - I'm in Australia, so things aren't quite as cheap as they are in the US. A MacBook Pro is a little out of my price - and I really don't think I'd make the best use of it anyway.

I'm not a gamer, not a programmer or a tinkerer. I'm an idiot without the savant. Seems like the MacBook might suit my needs nicely. I'll see if I can get my local store to give me some time on one and on a Windows machine.

Thanks again everyone, for the input.

 

[ananda]

cut the crap and buy a MAC. You'll thank yourself forever.

 

[fishuuuuu]

And as far as all those toting the Mac attack. What does a Mac offer superior to the PC? Have you ever inspected the internals on a Mac? I for one, am not impressed. They offer reliable systems but at outrageous prices for consumer appeal and mediocre parts.

Spend a week, get yourself thoroughly entrenched in knowledge concerning computers and notebooks (the information is readily available all over the internet), and make an educated decision.

Also, try the forums at notebookreview.com

 

[movdqa]

And as far as all those toting the Mac attack. What does a Mac offer superior to the PC? Have you ever inspected the internals on a Mac? I for one, am not impressed. They offer reliable systems but at outrageous prices for consumer appeal and mediocre parts.

Spend a week, get yourself thoroughly entrenched in knowledge concerning computers and notebooks (the information is readily available all over the internet), and make an educated decision.

Also, try the forums at notebookreview.com

Mac/OSX. LED backlit screen. High-end parts. A close working relationship with Intel. 64-bit operating system. Less worry over spyware and viruses. Free development environment. Excellent developer support, especially for SIMD programming. The Unix shell. Outstanding customer service at the Apple Store.

My background? I've been using computers since 1970. Degrees in IS and CS. Software engineer since the mid-1980s. IS consultant before that. Knowledgeable in CPU architecture.

Personally I don't think that you can really educate yourself in computers in a week. It's more of a lifelong process.

 

[BigServer1]

I have a MacBook Pro running 80 GB on Mac OS 10.5 and 40GB Windows XP Professional. The new OS is great, the dual partition program is awesome, and it runs Windows natively so there's no bugs or crappy virtualized performance. The MacBooks start at $1099 with the new OS, which is very affordable and it comes with a brand new OS that actually works, unlike Vista. If you go Mac and dual partition, you won't regret it. If you just go Mac, you won't regret that either. Just do it.

 

[BigServer1]

And as far as all those toting the Mac attack. What does a Mac offer superior to the PC? Have you ever inspected the internals on a Mac? I for one, am not impressed. They offer reliable systems but at outrageous prices for consumer appeal and mediocre parts.

Spend a week, get yourself thoroughly entrenched in knowledge concerning computers and notebooks (the information is readily available all over the internet), and make an educated decision.

Also, try the forums at notebookreview.com

Dude, it's pretty evident that you haven't taken a close look at the newer Mac computers, and if you have, you are obviously blinded by your loyalty for PCs. Like I said in my post, I have a MacBook pro, running a 2.4 GHz Intel core2 duo santa rosa chip set. The new Operating system allows me to run Windows natively, so when I need to use Microsoft Access or anything else out of the 2007 suite, I restart into Windows XP (which loads faster on my computer than any of my friends PC notebooks) and I work in XP professional. That is what Mac offers that is superior to the PC. That coupled with everything modvqa stated gives the Mac the edge.

If you want a piece of crap for $600 that will last you a year, get a PC. If you like quality and performance, spend the money and get a Mac that will last you 4-5 years if you need it to.

 

[Mister G]

No offense, but are you a Mac Rep movdqa?

I wasn't going to say anything but you repeatedly posted replies to other peoples opinions, only praising Macs.. For someone who is as qualified as you say you are, you are incredibly biased...

Replies to the other Mac worshippers:

Macs are for only two types of people:

a. People who either know what they are doing and need a professional platform for graphic/audio work.

b. People who dont know what they are doing. Surf the net, use their iTunes and facebook, chat to others etc. Most use they'll get is a word processor.

Yes, higher end Macs are AWESOME but cost MOST people a freakin kidney after you pay for any extras and software. Higher end Macs run AMAZING, and are incredibly powerful and fast. True! Let me ask you something though. What are YOU doing that requires so much processing power on your super Mac? Probably nothing that really pushes its limits, not even close. So why pay so much for it? Hmmm. :roll:

Even SO, dont give this "Macs are perfect, dont crash" bullsh*t attitude. The number of times I've witnessed Macs crash at a local studio (that have over 15 Macs installed) are countless. I've owned a Mac, made the switch to a PC years ago. My computer runs fine. No crashes, no problems, nothing. In fact, I like the fact that I know EXACTLY what kind of RAM I have, at what timings and FSB, I like how I can adjust these if I feel the need to be curious or brave. I like how I can tailor build a PC exactly how I want and need it. You dont get that with a Mac. Funny how technology actually makes people more stupid and lazy.

Money/Value, a PC wins, thats why Bates is kicking Jobs *** in the computer market (dont worry, Im not a fan of either). If you are stupid enough not to crash your PC/download virus/blah blah, you deserve to be ripped off by Apple, sorry. Spend some more time learning, instead of buying an expensive product and then saying that PCs suck. Get some perspective. Why spend A LOT more when you can get the same, cheaper? One word for you: Brand!

One last thing, I have nothing against Apple. They make great products, and if I could afford it, I would probably get a Mac myself because it is more suited for what I do. Unfortunately, I would need to spend a lot more than 5K to replace what I have now. What bothers me are those that use Macs, and flaunt how great they are when frankly, they have NO idea what they are talking about. Stupid sheep.

 

[Morpheus]

My computer runs fine. No crashes, no problems, nothing. In fact, I like the fact that I know EXACTLY what kind of RAM I have, at what timings and FSB, I like how I can adjust these if I feel the need to be curious or brave. I like how I can tailor build a PC exactly how I want and need it. You dont get that with a Mac. Funny how technology actually makes people more stupid and lazy.


One last thing, I have nothing against Apple. They make great products, and if I could afford it, I would probably get a Mac myself because it is more suited for what I do.

Something does not compute...you say you like PCs for all these reasons and that technology makes people stupid and lazy, yet you conclude by saying you'd get an Apple if you had the money.

I would also offer up that one should not have to invest so much time and effort learning about technology. It should be seamless and useful to the end-user. Macs do a much better job at this simply because they don't have to write code that supports a zillion peripherals.

You cannot dispute the fact the Mac OS is more stable than Windows. Nor can you dispute the fact that Macs are more intuitive and easier to use for the average user.

I run a network at home and moved to the Mac platform. I am not stupid or lazy and have the money. Now I have a lot more time to make more money because my computers require very little maintenance. It wasn't always so, and for me, the Macs make all the difference.

 

[movdqa]

> No offense, but are you a Mac Rep movdqa?

I already wrote that I'm a software engineer. But you'd know that if you
knew what a movdqa was.

> I wasn't going to say anything but you repeatedly posted replies to
> other peoples opinions, only praising Macs.. For someone who is as
> qualified as you say you are, you are incredibly biased...

You seem to equate reporting expert opinions and facts as biased.

> Macs are for only two types of people:

> a. People who either know what they are doing and need a professional
> platform for graphic/audio work.

> b. People who dont know what they are doing. Surf the net, use their
> iTunes and facebook, chat to others etc. Most use they'll get is a
> word processor.

My office client is a PC and my development environment is a Linux
server. From time to time I may use an Itanium system or a Digital
Alpha system or maybe some other esoteric hardware and operating
system combination. Mac/OSX is a member of the Unix family and
variants of Unix are popular in multiplatform development
environments. These are the machines that serve up web pages, handle
financial transactions all over the world, are used in manufacturing
applications, handle stock market trades, etc. Linux is in use in more
and more standalone devices like routers. I know several other
engineers that use their Macs for development. These guys have no
problems spending $20K for hardware and software.

I know a lot of professionals that use their Macs for far more than
what you mentioned.

> Yes, higher end Macs are AWESOME but cost MOST people a freakin kidney
> after you pay for any extras and software. Higher end Macs run
> AMAZING, and are incredibly powerful and fast. True! Let me ask you
> something though. What are YOU doing that requires so much processing
> power on your super Mac? Probably nothing that really pushes its
> limits, not even close. So why pay so much for it? Hmmm.

I seldom get to use the Mac because it is in high demand in my
household but I use it for development. My regular platform is a
Windows XP x64 edition Dell that I also use for development. I'm
waiting for the new Penryn processors before getting my own
Mac. Service costs money and you pay for it up front with Apple. You
can take your chances with Dell or HP if you want but you probably get
what you pay for.

> Even SO, dont give this "Macs are perfect, dont crash" bullsh*t
> attitude.

Strawman. Please document where anyone here has said that Macs don't
crash. Macs are less likely to crash because Apple controls the
hardware. PCs tend to have more problems because the operating system
company doesn't control the drivers.

> The number of times I've witnessed Macs crash at a local
> studio (that have over 15 Macs installed) are countless. I've owned a
> Mac, made the switch to a PC years ago. My computer runs fine. No
> crashes, no problems, nothing. In fact, I like the fact that I know
> EXACTLY what kind of RAM I have, at what timings and FSB, I like how I
> can adjust these if I feel the need to be curious or brave. I like how
> I can tailor build a PC exactly how I want and need it. You dont get
> that with a Mac. Funny how technology actually makes people more
> stupid and lazy.

People ideally want appliances that they don't have to think
about. And they want to do minimal maintenance on the things that they
buy. Sure some people will spend a half-a-year of weekends remodelling
their kitchen or spend the time on a ladder cleaning out their gutters
or using a blowtorch and soup can to repair muffler pipes but most of
us like some amount of convenience in our lives for the things that
aren't hobbies. And there are a lot of people out there willing to pay
a lot of money for devices that work well, a high level of service and
simplicity. I have a very simple car that requires gasoline, service
every 5,000 miles, tires from time to time but has mainly been trouble
free. My previous car was an Audi Quattro which was a tremendous
amount of fun to drive but a maintenance nightmare. If you have a busy
household to run, then you want something that won't chew up your
time. As that's really what your life is composed of. When you only
have a year to live, what's more important: money or time?

> Money/Value, a PC wins,

This is incorrect. With cost, a PC wins. With money for value, it
depends on what your time is worth.

> thats why Bates is kicking Jobs *** in the computer market (dont
> worry, Im not a fan of either).

In the last five years, Apple stock is up about 1,800%. Microsoft
stock is up about 42%.

> If you are stupid enough not to crash your PC/download virus/blah
> blah, you deserve to be ripped off by Apple, sorry. Spend some more
> time learning, instead of buying an expensive product and then saying
> that PCs suck. Get some perspective. Why spend A LOT more when you can
> get the same, cheaper? One word for you: Brand!

Most of the people that I work with have at least a graduate degree
and one of the things that I appreciate about working with world-class
engineers is that they understand that the more you learn, the more
you realize how little you know.

> One last thing, I have nothing against Apple. They make great
> products, and if I could afford it, I would probably get a Mac myself
> because it is more suited for what I do. Unfortunately, I would need
> to spend a lot more than 5K to replace what I have now. What bothers
> me are those that use Macs, and flaunt how great they are when
> frankly, they have NO idea what they are talking about. Stupid sheep.

They're entitled. They clearly had the brains or heritage to acquire
the capital to purchase the Mac and use it in any way they please.

No offense, but are you a Mac Rep movdqa?

I wasn't going to say anything but you repeatedly posted replies to other peoples opinions, only praising Macs.. For someone who is as qualified as you say you are, you are incredibly biased...

Replies to the other Mac worshippers:

Macs are for only two types of people:

a. People who either know what they are doing and need a professional platform for graphic/audio work.

b. People who dont know what they are doing. Surf the net, use their iTunes and facebook, chat to others etc. Most use they'll get is a word processor.

Yes, higher end Macs are AWESOME but cost MOST people a freakin kidney after you pay for any extras and software. Higher end Macs run AMAZING, and are incredibly powerful and fast. True! Let me ask you something though. What are YOU doing that requires so much processing power on your super Mac? Probably nothing that really pushes its limits, not even close. So why pay so much for it? Hmmm. :roll:

Even SO, dont give this "Macs are perfect, dont crash" bullsh*t attitude. The number of times I've witnessed Macs crash at a local studio (that have over 15 Macs installed) are countless. I've owned a Mac, made the switch to a PC years ago. My computer runs fine. No crashes, no problems, nothing. In fact, I like the fact that I know EXACTLY what kind of RAM I have, at what timings and FSB, I like how I can adjust these if I feel the need to be curious or brave. I like how I can tailor build a PC exactly how I want and need it. You dont get that with a Mac. Funny how technology actually makes people more stupid and lazy.

Money/Value, a PC wins, thats why Bates is kicking Jobs *** in the computer market (dont worry, Im not a fan of either). If you are stupid enough not to crash your PC/download virus/blah blah, you deserve to be ripped off by Apple, sorry. Spend some more time learning, instead of buying an expensive product and then saying that PCs suck. Get some perspective. Why spend A LOT more when you can get the same, cheaper? One word for you: Brand!

One last thing, I have nothing against Apple. They make great products, and if I could afford it, I would probably get a Mac myself because it is more suited for what I do. Unfortunately, I would need to spend a lot more than 5K to replace what I have now. What bothers me are those that use Macs, and flaunt how great they are when frankly, they have NO idea what they are talking about. Stupid sheep.

 

[fishuuuuu]

Well, if this thread has shown you anything OP, is that Mac users are rude. Take your chances!

 

[BigServer1]

Well, if this thread has shown you anything OP, is that Mac users are rude. Take your chances!

Well when you unabashedly crap on Apple computers with (seemingly) little knowledge of their current state of technology, you can expect to illicit some negative (rude) responses. I guess this haughty, "We PC users can customize anything and we laugh at the plight of terrible software and lack of options for Macintosh, even though we won't take the time to learn about them" attitude isn't rude at all...

You would be amazed at how many people who are die-hard PC people go nuts when they see what my computer is able to do. I show them the new OS, which they are impressed with (thanks Vista, for setting the bar really low) and I show them the Mac to XP changeover, and that usually does it.

I guess for some, ignorance is bliss.

 

[movdqa]

Ninety percent of 961 IT professionals surveyed said they have concerns about migrating to Vista and more than half said they have no plans to deploy Vista.

"The concerns about Vista specified by participants were overwhelmingly related to stability. Stability in general was frequently cited, as well as compatibility with the business software that would need to run on Vista," said Diane Hagglund of King Research, which conducted the survey for systems management vendor Kace. "Cost was also cited as a concern by some respondents."

"Clearly many companies are serious about this alternative, with 9% of those saying they have considered non-Windows operating systems already in the process of switching and a further 25% expecting to switch within the next year," the report "Windows Vista Adoption and Alternatives" reads.

Macintosh leads the pack of Vista alternatives, with support from 28% of respondents. About a quarter said they would opt for Red Hat Linux, with SUSE Linux and Ubuntu each garnering 18% of the vote. Another 9% cited other Linux operating systems and 4% were unsure.

http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258

One could listen to the concerns of 961 IT professionals or the opinion of
a poster that loves Windows machines because they are cheap but
actually would prefer a Mac.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

Our business has been going for eight years. At first we had *both* a Mac Desktop and a Toshiba Win Notebook. (The company I Rep claimed their proprietary software would not run on a Mac ... and they refuse to support the Mac.)

Five years ago I upgraded the Mac Desktop to a iBook G4 and gave the Toshiba to my Tech. (The company I Rep doesn't really have "software". They have a Web Portal which they claimed wouldn't work on Macs. They were wrong.) I've been delighted with the change.

Two years ago, my wife had to load yet another Virus / Spam / Bot protector on her Win Desktop. When the "protective" software brought her system's operating efficiency to its knees she hollered, "I want a Mac!" We got her a G5 Desktop system and we've had to spend *way* fewer hours messing with locked-up / jammed-up / frozen applications.

Life is better.


Also, I have a colleague who runs a small company focused on servicing PCs and Networks ... and a client of the very same business category. Neither of them is recommending VISTA to their own clients. They advise their commercial clients to stick with XP.


How is relating personal experiences "rude"???

- KK

 

[meh]

Mac OSX is a glorified Linux (not technically, I know) for money-spenders! The best bang for the buck is buying an inexpensive notebook and installing your favorite distro!

 

[Kaptain Karl]

<Mod Mode> Mister G - Using cre@t!ve spellings to by-pass the Language Filters ... *still* gets your posts zapped. Please keep the language in your posts within the TT Rules. Thank you.</Mode Mode>

- KK

 

[ananda]

Mac OSX is a glorified Linux (not technically, I know) for money-spenders! The best bang for the buck is buying an inexpensive notebook and installing your favorite distro!

you can only pull this line off in a forum like this.
i moved to the Mac in 2004 after many years of Linux and before that Unices. Tired of fighting with Redhat's manager issues (RPMs) and hardware compat issues.
I am extremely happy with a MAC. Its Unix (darwin) is great. I am more of a command-line user and write shell-scripts and perl/ruby scripts etc.

Yes, the Mac does crash once in a _rare_ while. But usually i don't restart it for months, only when a OS upgrade insists on it.

 

[35ft6]

Looking for a little help on this one. I have never owned a notebook before - and I'm looking to buy one in the next month. I've looked at Macs before but have never spent any decent time with them. My wife has one - I used it for 2 weeks and didn't like it because I felt it was second guessing me all the time - but I can see that that would be pretty easy to get used to. I know most of the arguments against buying a Mac - no software, poor compatibility with Windows users, etc.

What software are you looking for?

I've only ever used standard Windows PC's and have never had a single problem with the ones I've owned. Nothing. No crashes, no freezes - no issues at all. A few of my Mac buddies will quietly admit that they've had to take their machines back to the store on occasion, but then , i know plenty of pc users in the same boat.

Well, if anecdotes mean something to you, then let me say that I've never had a problem with the three macs I've owned.

I will be taking this machine overseas with me next year. I don't use my computer for anything other than word processing, internetting, playing music and organising my life. I may start to dabble with digital media soon though.

Then get a Mac. It's far superior for most media related applications.

I am open to any insight from anyone who has some experience with both.Thanks in advance.

I use both, Windows at work, Mac at home. I cut my computer teeth on Windows machines and when I used my first Mac, I felt immediately at home. It makes sense. Nothing is more complicated than it has to be and functions are positioned and operate in a logical, sensible way. Windows, not so much.

 

[SalvadorVeiga]

just to throw my opinion... I know Windows has the biggest share in PC Market, but you can't generalize that PC's are windows like someone else here as said... There are other alternatives like GNU/Linux, which being a new user (5 months) I am extremely happy with... I work with media also, image editing and couldn't be happier... I also introduced my uncle to GNU/Linux and he is a graphic editor for the biggest newspaper in my country and he loved it (he has always been a mac user), I was a windows avid and tried avoiding changing OS because was too afraid or didn't know how it would work or it was too hard to configure but Linux worked out of the box and it is damn stable... I haven't had a single crash in 4 months. And the good thing is I can give use to the old PC I had, where even XP didn't work on the machine now works with Linux, aside from being stable the eyecandy available gives a doouble bagel to Vista (6-0 6-0). Although I've never liked/got used to Mac, now I use Linux emulating a Mac Look which looks awesome, apart from working darn fast and stable...

All this just to make the point, that you can't generalize PC's = Windows , altohugh they have pretty much the biggest share on the market... but like that article said 28% are using OS X as a VISTA alternative, while 25 % for RedHat and 18 % for SuSE and 18% for Ubuntu... so 61% of people are looking into GNU/Linux for Vista alternatives, it is interesting this happening... i think Linux is starting to become "less complicated" to the eyes of people... at least from my experience I had no tweaks to do on it...

 

[movdqa]

you can only pull this line off in a forum like this.
i moved to the Mac in 2004 after many years of Linux and before that Unices. Tired of fighting with Redhat's manager issues (RPMs) and hardware compat issues.
I am extremely happy with a MAC. Its Unix (darwin) is great. I am more of a command-line user and write shell-scripts and perl/ruby scripts etc.

Yes, the Mac does crash once in a _rare_ while. But usually i don't restart it for months, only when a OS upgrade insists on it.

I use Linux daily at work and it feels similar to Mac OSX when I'm in the shell. The difference is that I have IT staff to manage the Linux environment so they take care of the software platform and I just use it for development. I have done system management on hardware going back decades but I prefer not to do it if I don't have to. Apple has Mac OSX set up so that the end-user has to do an absolute minimum of the system management work.

The other issue that I have with Linux is device drivers. Getting multiple-monitor systems up and running on Linux has proven to be a challenge. I remember playing around with this a few years ago. If you made a mistake, you had to boot into console mode and us Vi to edit the configuration file to set it back again. I generally use xemacs on unix systems and don't even know the Vi commands but we have a Unix text at home that explains the Vi commands. Your typical user would go nuts over having to use Vi.

Linux has come a long ways but it's still hard to do a lot of things that are pretty simple on Windows and Mac OSX. I know one guy at work that was working with YellowDog Linux on his Vaio. He couldn't get his wireless card working so he spent a lot of time on forums and then found someone with a similar driver that he hacked to get working on his system.

 

[movdqa]

>> I would also offer up that one should not have to invest so much time
>> and effort learning about technology. It should be seamless and useful
>> to the end-user. Macs do a much better job at this simply because they
>> don't have to write code that supports a zillion peripherals.
> Like I said, lazy.

One could say lazy or efficient.

>> I run a network at home and moved to the Mac platform. I am not stupid
>> or lazy and have the money. Now I have a lot more time to make more
>> money because my computers require very little maintenance. It wasn't
>> always so, and for me, the Macs make all the difference.

> Another ridiculously biased Mac user comment, acting like PC's require
> a monkey wrench, screwdrivers and a pneumatic drill to operate on a
> daily basis.

Perhaps not on a daily basis but they do require considerably more
mainteance than a Mac does. My wife used to call me during the day to
deal with Windows issues and I got tired of the calls so I told her to
ask the kids for help. They got tired of the calls so I bought her a
PowerMac G5. End of calls and the kids stopped complaining about
having to do tech support.

> It was rhetorical question Don't be a pompous with your "You'd know
> that if...." Only making yourself sound stupidly arrogant, as you are.

Ad hominem.

> Expert opinions, as expert they may be, are not facts. Dont get
> confused between the two.

I don't. It's you that have a hard time understanding facts and expert
opinions.

>> These guys have no problems spending $20K for hardware and software.
> Wish I could say the same for the rest of billions of us.

How do you think people get to the point where they can drop $20K for
hardware or $60K for a car? They relentlessly work on becoming more
efficient in many aspects of their lives.

> I know a lot of professionals that use their Macs for far more than
> what you mentioned. Of course there are other applications for
> Macs. We are talking about the average user now no?

From your original post:

>>> Macs are for only two types of people:

>>> a. People who either know what they are doing and need a professional
>>> platform for graphic/audio work.

>>> b. People who dont know what they are doing. Surf the net, use their
>>> iTunes and facebook, chat to others etc. Most use they'll get is a
>>> word processor.

You are now asserting that the combination of (a) and (b) represent the
average user. Perhaps (a) does but I don't see how (b) does. Which makes
your claim that we (or actually you) were talking about the average user
specious.

>> I seldom get to use the Mac because it is in high demand in my
>> household but I use it for development.
> "High demand in my household" Haha Looks like they bought your brand,
> quite literally.

I bought it for our son who started full-time college this fall. Our
daughter took it as she likes the platform. His HP X2 4400 died (only
18 months old) with a power supply problem which I have yet to fix so
I recently got him a Dell Vostro desktop. I wanted to buy a few more
MacBook Pros but Penryn is just around the corner and I'd rather wait
for that platform. The Penryn chip have SSE4 support and I'd like to
play around with those new machine instructions.

My kids are smart enough to know good hardware when they see it.

> Genius. I never said someone said that, I put those in quotes then put
> ATTITUDE behind it - learn to read between the lines please.

Strawman. Please post where anyone has that attitide.

> Yadda yadda. Chew up your time? Exactly what kind of PCs are you
> running? You talk as if you compare the performance between a 286 and
> a Mac Pro. Stop exaggerating.

Perhaps you missed it but the beginning of my paragraph was:

>> People ideally want appliances that they don't have to think
>> about. And they want to do minimal maintenance on the things that they
>> buy.

I was clearly talking about maintenance time. The rest of my anecdotes
were about the maintenance time for cars, houses, etc. How you came up
with me thinking that my paragraph was about CPU and system
performance is a mystery to me.

> Once again, biased opinons shooting out of your mouth. A PC is 1,425
> times slower than a MAC! (or was it 1,428, you tell me)

Strawman. My point is that time is money. As you acquire wealth, the
relative value of money in comparison to time diminishes. Perhaps you
don't have the capacity to understand this.

>> In the last five years, Apple stock is up about 1,800%. Microsoft
>> stock is up about 42%.

> You do realise that Apple produce OTHER products apart from computers
> right? Products such as the iPod has helped Apples stock increase by
> god knows how much. Don't try to fill in inconsistent banter to
> support your biased opinions. Honestly, do you actually believe that
> MACs out number PCs now? What hole are you living in? (Not that it
> means one is superiror to the other - Im talking about market share)

I'm an investor in Apple and I do keep an eye on earnings and the
contributions from their various product lines. I do some engineering
on the Mac OSX platform too and so I'm more than a casual observor of
the company. I also keep up with chip architecture.

Perhaps you didn't notice but Apple, Intel and Microsoft had very good
quarters. It's rumored that Intel sold out their Q4 chip production
several weeks ago. They have two new 45 nm fabs coming online and they
should have much more capacity online for Q1 when they launch their
mainstream Penryn parts. I'd suggest taking a look at the Mac
contributions to Apple's bottom line as they have been very impressive
in terms of growth and absolute contributions.

Apple is riding a wave of technology innovation in the personal
computing space. The advent of the solid-stats drive, LED backlit
screen, better bus technology, better video cards, etc. allow Apple to
do product refreshes whenever they want to. The biggest driver, though
is Intel's astonishing improvements in chip technology in the last few
years. Their process shrinks and relentless IPC improvements keep
Apple supplied with ever-better chips to make better products with and
Apple makes for quite a nice showcase for Intel's products. As I said
before, Penryn mainstream chips come out early in 2008. Then they have
Nehalem coming out in the second half. Nehalem features up to eight
cores and the options of an integrated memory controller and
high-speed serial inteconnect. In 2009, they have Larrabee which will
include one or two GPUs on the CPU chip itself. They should be coming
out with 32 nm parts in 2009/2010. Intel also has UPMC chips coming
out in 2008-2010. The Silverthorne processor should run around 2 watts
of power and a good chip for devices like the iPhone. The followon
product in 2009/2010 will use between 10 and 200 milliwatts. Modern
CPUs use around 25 to 120 watts at load.

But getting back to your original quote:

>>> thats why Bates is kicking Jobs [removed] in the computer market (dont
>>> worry, Im not a fan of either).

As an investor, are you more concerned with absolute numbers or growth
rate? Asset valuation models have a growth rate component and that
component is usually more important than the absolute size of the
company. If you were a newly minted CS major, would you rather work in
Cupertino or Redmond?

>> Most of the people that I work with have at least a graduate degree
>> and one of the things that I appreciate about working with world-class
>> engineers is that they understand that the more you learn, the more
>> you realize how little you know.

 

[movdqa]

> I agree with the bold. Your point?

You seem to think that you know a lot about computers and the world but
your posts belie that.

>> They're entitled. They clearly had the brains or heritage to acquire
>> the capital to purchase the Mac and use it in any way they please.

> Brains and Heritage?

> Get off your high horse. Brains has nothing to do with capital one
> has/owns. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon up their....

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

There is considerable support for the notion that the rate of return
on investment in higher education is high enough to warrant the
financial burden associated with pursuing a college degree. Though
the earnings differential between college and high school graduates
varies over time, college graduates, on average, earn more than high
school graduates. According to the Census Bureau, over an adult's
working life, high school graduates earn an average of $1.2 million;
associate's degree holders earn about $1.6 million; and bachelor's
degree holders earn about $2.1 million (Day and Newburger, 2002).

Day, J.C., & Newburger, E.C. (2002). The Big Payoff: Educational
Attainment and Synthetic Estimates of Work-Life Earnings. (Current
Population Reports, Special Studies, P23-210). Washington, DC:
Commerce Dept., Economics and Statistics Administration, Census
Bureau. [On-Line].

Available: http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

>> Ninety percent of 961 IT professionals surveyed said they have
>> concerns about migrating to Vista and more than half said they have no
>> plans to deploy Vista... blah blah blah ...One could listen to the
>> concerns of 961 IT professionals or the opinion of a poster that loves
>> Windows machines because they are cheap but actually would prefer a
>> Mac. I never said I use Vista. I never said Vista was great. I never
>> recommended/nor stated that Vista was a superior OS. You are making
>> assumptions and selling your crap again. Didn't your graduate buddies
>> and "world-class engineers" tell you that assumptions are the mother
>> of all f-ups? I guess not.

> I could go back to all your other replies and show you just how
> arrogant and biased you are. In fact, you make yourself seem
> incompetant to use a PC...

Ad hominem abusive or ad personam

Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and
most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but
can also involve pointing out factual but ostensibly damning character
flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This
tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative
facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with
the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions. This
tactic is frequently employed as a propaganda tool among politicians
who are attempting to influence the voter base in their favor through
an appeal to emotion rather than by logical means, especially when
their own position is logically weaker than their opponent's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I recommend Introduction to Logic by Copi and Cohen for those with a
poor background in logic and reasoning.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

Have you ever inspected the internals on a Mac? I for one, am not impressed. They offer reliable systems but at outrageous prices for consumer appeal and mediocre parts.

Stop it. You're gonna make Steve Jobs blush.

You are actually arguing that Macs are superior even though they use inferior components. Wow! Apple *must* be really good if it can do that...!

There are other alternatives like GNU/Linux ... Linux emulating a Mac Look ... RedHat ... SuSE ... Ubuntu ...

and​

Posted by movdqa ... I'm in the shell ... manage the Linux environment ... boot into console mode and us Vi to edit the configuration file ... xemacs ... Vi commands ... YellowDog Linux....

Holy cow!!! (That probably did mean something ... to you two ... but, Geez! I couldn't follow *that*.)

I swear, geeks are going to take over the world ... and we won't even know it happened until it's too late.

- KK

 

[Mister G]

Perhaps not on a daily basis but they do require considerably more mainteance than a Mac does.

Once again, dont exaggerate.

My wife used to call me during the day todeal with Windows issues and I got tired of the calls so I told her to ask the kids for help. They got tired of the calls so I bought her a PowerMac G5. End of calls and the kids stopped complaining about having to do tech support.

My point exactly... Going back to Mac is for "dumb" users (I dont mean that as an insult)

Ad hominem.

Touche.

How do you think people get to the point where they can drop $20K for hardware or $60K for a car? They relentlessly work on becoming more efficient in many aspects of their lives.

Efficient isnt quite the word you are looking for here...

You are now asserting that the combination of (a) and (b) represent the average user. Perhaps (a) does but I don't see how (b) does. Which makes your claim that we (or actually you) were talking about the average user specious.

Isn't that what I just said?

I bought it for our son who started full-time college this fall. Our daughter took it as she likes the platform. His HP X2 4400 died (only 18 months old) with a power supply problem which I have yet to fix so I recently got him a Dell Vostro desktop. I wanted to buy a few more MacBook Pros but Penryn is just around the corner and I'd rather wait for that platform. The Penryn chip have SSE4 support and I'd like to play around with those new machine instructions.

You have to "fix" this so - called PSU problem... Talk about world-class engineering.

My kids are smart enough to know good hardware when they see it.

I'm sure every parent would say the same.

Strawman. Please post where anyone has that attitide.

Go back and read your posts. If it doesnt smell like you have a superior attitude, well... *wipes something off your nose*

I was clearly talking about maintenance time. The rest of my anecdotes were about the maintenance time for cars, houses, etc. How you came up with me thinking that my paragraph was about CPU and system performance is a mystery to me.

Yes, and because YOU need to maintain your PC 48 hours a week, its costing you money, I know, we heard it before. :roll:

I'm an investor in Apple and I do keep an eye on earnings and the contributions from their various product lines. I do some engineering on the Mac OSX platform too and so I'm more than a casual observor of the company. I also keep up with chip architecture.

Once again. I'm qualified in... Still doesn't explain why you are way too biased. At least admit it. You remind me of pompous sound art glitch music freaks.

Perhaps you didn't notice but Apple, Intel and Microsoft had very good quarters. It's rumored that Intel sold out their Q4 chip production several weeks ago. They have two new 45 nm fabs coming online and they should have much more capacity online for Q1 when they launch their mainstream Penryn parts. I'd suggest taking a look at the Mac
contributions to Apple's bottom line as they have been very impressive
in terms of growth and absolute contributions.

Apple is riding a wave of technology innovation in the personal
computing space. The advent of the solid-stats drive, LED backlit
screen, better bus technology, better video cards, etc. allow Apple to
do product refreshes whenever they want to. The biggest driver, though
is Intel's astonishing improvements in chip technology in the last few
years. Their process shrinks and relentless IPC improvements keep
Apple supplied with ever-better chips to make better products with and
Apple makes for quite a nice showcase for Intel's products. As I said
before, Penryn mainstream chips come out early in 2008. Then they have
Nehalem coming out in the second half. Nehalem features up to eight
cores and the options of an integrated memory controller and
high-speed serial inteconnect. In 2009, they have Larrabee which will
include one or two GPUs on the CPU chip itself. They should be coming
out with 32 nm parts in 2009/2010. Intel also has UPMC chips coming
out in 2008-2010. The Silverthorne processor should run around 2 watts
of power and a good chip for devices like the iPhone. The followon
product in 2009/2010 will use between 10 and 200 milliwatts. Modern
CPUs use around 25 to 120 watts at load.

More useless banter that doesnt contribute whatsoever except for you to make YOURSELF look more credible. Sorry but no matter what you know, biased opinons are just that - biased opinions. Nonetheless, some of the things you have said carry weight and are true.

As an investor, are you more concerned with absolute numbers or growth rate? Asset valuation models have a growth rate component and that component is usually more important than the absolute size of thecompany. If you were a newly minted CS major, would you rather work in Cupertino or Redmond?

Nothing to do with investing. Smoke and mirrors. I originally stated that PCs were more popular than Macs for a few reasons, then YOU came up with this whole Apple stock malarky. :roll:

You seem to think that you know a lot about computers and the world but your posts belie that.

Touche. Dont believe everything you read mister.

Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensibly damning character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative
facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with
the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions. This
tactic is frequently employed as a propaganda tool among politicians
who are attempting to influence the voter base in their favor through
an appeal to emotion rather than by logical means, especially when
their own position is logically weaker than their opponent's.

Ok, strawman.

And.. once again:

You seem to think that you know a lot about computers and the world but your posts belie that.

One of the downsides to machines from HP is that they don't give you any of the installation disks unlike Dell. Dell provides OEM disks so that you can do a repair install of Windows if you have some minor OS damage. HP expects you to make your own image backups. This requires a few writable DVDs or a huge number of writable CDs and a few hours of your time.

If you need to run Windows programs, you can just get a copy of Windows ($98 at my local store) and run it either using Boot Camp or as a virtual machine.

So... you're telling the others that if you need to run Windows, you can get a copy for a Mac, but not for HP machines. Hmm Like I said, if you dont know how to backup your stuff in case of any hardware/software failure.. well..

HP also loads their machines with crapware that can take hours to remove.

This is my favourite quote. Hours to remove. Maybe days? You did say you were into computers since the 70s no? Interesting how I managed to clean up the missus HP laptop in roughly 6minutes, with 2 reboots.

I have 6 systems from Dell. The oldest is a laptop which is about 7 years old. It still works fine. I have three HP systems - two desktops and one laptop. The laptop is over four years old and works fine. One of the desktops that's about 18 months old has a bad power supply and is out of service. The other desktop is about 15 months old and is getting noisy. These were both $1,000+ systems.

Since you're so knowledgable and since you dont seem mind paying for quality, you should build your own machines. If you REALLY knew what quality was, you would try your best to avoid pre-built systems. Im sure you already know WHY.

Bad PSU. Takes you that long to fix? I know 12 year olds that can remedy that problem.

Noisy Desktop. Oh no! Run for the hills.

 

[Morpheus]

Replace Allah with PC and Mac with Christ and you have the God thread. All we need now is for Deuce to chime in with the luddite perspective.

 

[fishuuuuu]

Since you're so knowledgable and since you dont seem mind paying for quality, you should build your own machines. If you REALLY knew what quality was, you would try your best to avoid pre-built systems. Im sure you already know WHY.

Bad PSU. Takes you that long to fix? I know 12 year olds that can remedy that problem.

Noisy Desktop. Oh no! Run for the hills.

Noisy desktop ... build your own machine ... you called? Haha.

To be honest I'm surprised at the better than thou attitudes cast by everyone. And while I'm being honest, I'm more surprised that no one cared to notice that I had no respect for any prebuilt system or vendor. However ultimately, you can purchase a "good' system from Mac, that comes at a far higher price tag than a similarly reliable machine run on Windows.

If it runs, it runs.

If you're having problems, educate yourself with a computer. I know ten year olds that could be working tech support with the problems some of the purported problems people have.

And I won't even get into the whole Windows vs. Linux vs. OSX debate. They all have their purposes ... and their faults, and their advantages!

But the real answer to MacBook vs Windows machine is ... to build your own. I own an Asus notebook chasis and have tooled it out exactly to my aspiring wants and needs. And you can see my PC there, the result of two hours of work ... first hour on napping, second hour on putting it together. Guess how many OSs I have installed? (;

 

[Mister G]

Replace Allah with PC and Mac with Christ and you have the God thread. All we need now is for Deuce to chime in with the luddite perspective.

Irrelevant comparison, sorry.

Let me repost cause you obviously missed my early one.

Something does not compute...you say you like PCs for all these reasons and that technology makes people stupid and lazy, yet you conclude by saying you'd get an Apple if you had the money.

One software that I use is Logic. Apple purchased Logic from its original developers and only develop Logic for the Mac. Its currently on version 8, the PC users have had to either switch over, or stay with version 5.5. Most recording studios use Logic/Pro Tools as its pretty much industry standard. I only want to switch to Mac for this reason, nothing more (oh and partly because I love Apple displays!) I would like to minimise switching between applications but so far, it hasnt been too troublesome (to the point where I HAVE to switch). Get it?

You cannot dispute the fact the Mac OS is more stable than Windows. Nor can you dispute the fact that Macs are more intuitive and easier to use for the average user.

I never disputed this, nor did I ever straight out disagree with it. You are confusing me with someone else, sorry. This isn't a PC vs MAC flame-fest.

I'm not debating what is necessarily BETTER than the other. Each have obviously their pros and cons - Macs might work better for some, PC might work better for others, whatever.

The reason I started replying to this thread is because I detest the smug arrogant I-have-a-Mac-and-I'm-superior attitude (and the biased, ridiculoulsly exaggerated comments made by those with that attitude, all of which mentioned above)

 

[Mister G]

Noisy desktop ... build your own machine ... you called? Haha.

Interesting build. Dont recognise the chassis though I have a classic ATCS.

To be honest I'm surprised at the better than thou attitudes cast by everyone.

Sorry but thats the reason why I started posting. To put the arrogant BS preaching ones in their place. Nothing wrong with defending your tool of choice, at least be honest about it and stop the BS.

If you're having problems, educate yourself with a computer.

Exactly. Nothing wrong with learning. If you cant be bothered with any of it and want to spend more money, then the solution is obvious. (2nd Mac user).

 

[Morpheus]

Mister G: you are a stubborn, humorless fellow. If you want to live in the PC world, by all means, go at it.

I stand by my experience with the Mac platform. I have too many other important things to do in life than muck around with a PC.