Novak Djokovic and Roger Federer as Qualifiers -- A comparison...

S'in-net

Semi-Pro
A Comparison...Of the Early Days :

Novak Djokovic :

Djokovic has three times played a Grand Slam qualifying tournament :

1) MelB 2005/Qualification tournament
Djokovic : Age 17...
Ranking 188/Unseeded in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt F. Piccari 6/3, 7/5
Rnd 2) Bt (32nd seed) S. Wawrinka 6/3, 6/1
Rnd 3) Bt (15th seed) W. Moodie 4/6, 6/3, 6/4

Qualified into : MelB 2005 Main Draw :
Rnd 1) Loses to (4th seed) M. Safin 0/3 and Safin goes on to win the tournament beating Federer/Hewitt in one of the greatest displays of all time...

2) RG 2005/Qualification tournament
Djokovic : Age 18...
Ranking 153/Seeded 15th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt G. Wiener 6/2, 6/3
Rnd 2) Bt F. Ferreiro 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 3) Bt M. Gicquel 6/4, 7/6

Qualified into : RG 2005 Main Draw :
Rnd 1) Bt R. Ginepri 6/0, 6/0, 6/3
Rnd 2) Lost to (8th seed) G. Coria 6/4, 2/6, 2/3 ret
At that time Coria was the second best clay courter in the world and had just had this run of form at the
last six clay majors he had played in : Monte Carlo 2004/Champion, Hamburg 2004/Runner-up,
RG 2004/Runner-up, Monte Carlo 2005/Runner-up, Rome 2005 /Runner-up, Hamburg 2005 qf
Djokovic himself was on an nine match winning streak going into this match having just won a clay challenger in San Remo + 3 rnds RG qualifying and won his 1st rnd main draw

3) AELTC 2005/Qualification tournament
Djokovic : Age 18...
Ranking 128/Seeded 17th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt B. Baker 1/1 ret
Rnd 2) Bt J. Wang 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 3) Bt (15th seed) W. Moodie 4/6, 6/0, 6/7, 7/6, 6/3
Djokovic beat Moodie in the last round of qualifying for the second time, both in close matches...
And Moodie qualified in the Mens Doubles this year, with Huss, and went right out and won the main event Mens Doubles beating the Bryan brothers in the Finals...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/4644175.stm

Qualified into : AELTC 2005 Main Draw :
Rnd 1) Bt J. Monaco 6/3, 7/6, 6/3
Rnd 2) Bt G. Garcia Lopez 3/6, 3/6, 7/6, 7/6, 6/4
Rnd 3) lost to (9th seed) S. Grosjean 5/7, 4/6, 7/5, 4/6
And Grosjean had made semis/semis the two previous years and lost in 5 sets quarters this year

Qualifying Match TOTALS : Played NINE : Won NINE (including beating three seeded players)

So early days Novak completed a Grand Slam Qualifying Hat-trick of tournaments in a row :
On Hard/Clay and Grass courts

Roger Federer :

Federer has twice played a Grand Slam qualifying tournament :

1) MelB 1999/Qualification tournament
Federer : Age 17...
Ranking 298/Unseeded in qualifying

Rnd 1) Lost to O. Delaitre 4/6, 4/6

(Federer didn't have to qualify for RG/AELTC 1999, because he got WC for both events)

2) USO 1999/Qualification tournament
Federer : Age 18...
Ranking 104/Seeded 4th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt E. Kempes 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 2) Lost to I. Heuberger 6/7, 2/6

Qualifying Match TOTALS : Played THREE : Won ONE/LOST TWO (Played no seeded players)
 
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S'in-net

Semi-Pro
Others :

Rafael Nadal never entered a Grand Slam Qualifying tournament...

Andy Murray once played a Grand Slam Qualifying tournament :

1) USO 2005/Qualification tournament
Murray : Age 18/
Ranking 122/Seeded 15th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt D. Sela 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 2) Bt P. lorenzi 6/3, 6/2
Rnd 3) Bt (22nd seed) G. Lapentti 6/0, 7/6

Qualified into : USO 2005 Main Draw ;

Rnd 1) Bt A. Pavel 6/3, 3/6, 3/6, 6/1, 6/4
Rnd 2) Lost to A. Clement 2/6, 6/7, 6/2, 7/6, 0/6
Clement had also come through the qualifying (3rd seed in qualifying)

Qualifying Match TOTALS : Played THREE : Won THREE (including beating one seeded player)

(Murray was given a WC for AELTC 2005)
 

Noelan

Legend
A Comparison...Of the Early Days :

Novak Djokovic :

Djokovic has three times played a Grand Slam qualifying tournament :

1) MelB 2005/Qualification tournament
Djokovic : Age 17...
Ranking 188/Unseeded in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt F. Piccari 6/3, 7/5
Rnd 2) Bt (32nd seed) S. Wawrinka 6/3, 6/1
Rnd 3) Bt (15th seed) W. Moodie 4/6, 6/3, 6/4

Qualified into : MelB 2005 Main Draw :
Rnd 1) Loses to (4th seed) M. Safin 0/3 and Safin goes on to win the tournament beating Federer/Hewitt in one of the greatest displays of all time...

2) RG 2005/Qualification tournament
Djokovic : Age 18...
Ranking 153/Seeded 15th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt G. Wiener 6/2, 6/3
Rnd 2) Bt F. Ferreiro 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 3) Bt M. Gicquel 6/4, 7/6

Qualified into : RG 2005 Main Draw :
Rnd 1) Bt R. Ginepri 6/0, 6/0, 6/3
Rnd 2) Lost to (8th seed) G. Coria 6/4, 2/6, 2/3 ret
At that time Coria was the second best clay courter in the world and had just had this run of form at the
last six clay majors he had played in : Monte Carlo 2004/Champion, Hamburg 2004/Runner-up,
RG 2004/Runner-up, Monte Carlo 2005/Runner-up, Rome 2005 /Runner-up, Hamburg 2005 qf
Djokovic himself was on an nine match winning streak going into this match having just won a clay challenger in San Remo + 3 rnds RG qualifying and won his 1st rnd main draw

3) AELTC 2005/Qualification tournament
Djokovic : Age 18...
Ranking 128/Seeded 17th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt B. Baker 1/1 ret
Rnd 2) Bt J. Wang 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 3) Bt (15th seed) W. Moodie 4/6, 6/0, 6/7, 7/6, 6/3
Djokovic beat Moodie in the last round of qualifying for the second time, both in close matches...
And Moodie qualified in the Mens Doubles this year, with Huss, and went right out and won the main event Mens Doubles beating the Bryan brothers in the Finals...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/4644175.stm

Qualified into : AELTC 2005 Main Draw :
Rnd 1) Bt J. Monaco 6/3, 7/6, 6/3
Rnd 2) Bt G. Garcia Lopez 3/6, 3/6, 7/6, 7/6, 6/4
Rnd 3) lost to (9th seed) S. Grosjean 5/7, 4/6, 7/5, 4/6
And Grosjean had made semis/semis the two previous years and lost in 5 sets quarters this year

Qualifying Match TOTALS : Played NINE : Won NINE (including beating three seeded players)

So early days Novak completed a Grand Slam Qualifying Hat-trick of tournaments in a row :
On Hard/Clay and Grass courts

Roger Federer :

Federer has twice played a Grand Slam qualifying tournament :

1) MelB 1999/Qualification tournament
Federer : Age 17...
Ranking 298/Unseeded in qualifying

Rnd 1) Lost to O. Delaitre 4/6, 4/6

(Federer didn't have to qualify for RG/AELTC 1999, because he got WC for both events)

2) USO 1999/Qualification tournament
Federer : Age 18...
Ranking 104/Seeded 4th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt E. Kempes 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 2) Lost to I. Heuberger 6/7, 2/6

Qualifying Match TOTALS : Played THREE : Won ONE/LOST TWO (Played no seeded players)
Thanks OP very interesting data in your posts.
Numbers (instead fanboys hypotetical mumbo jumbo)
Shows how tough path to greatness Djokovic has had from the day one of his professional career. There weren't WCs for Serbian boy, he had to earn every of his single points the hard way.


Also Rafa, child prodigy:cool:
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
So Rafa was born great, Djokovic achieved greatness and Federer has greatness bestowed upon him. :)
 
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swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Interesting numbers op.
unreal Djokovic honed his skills against a massive amounts of peak prime players.
Basically thrown into the furnace that was Fedal.
Had Murray as his generational rival.
Thrown to the wolves against the Safins and nasty Roddicks at the time.
What a good kid.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Thanks OP very interesting data in your posts.
Numbers (instead fanboys hypotetical mumbo jumbo)
Shows how tough path to greatness Djokovic has had from the day one of his professional career. There weren't WCs for Serbian boy, he had to earn every of his single points the hard way.
Nothing to do with his nationality, everything do with lack of junior success, as he would rather focus in senior tennis right away. Novak chose that path for himself.

Federer was a top junior in 1998 & junior Wimbledon champion, hence the WCs for an obviously promising boy.
 

Noelan

Legend
Nothing to do with his nationality, everything do with lack of junior success, as he would rather focus in senior tennis right away. Novak chose that path for himself.

Federer was a top junior in 1998 & junior Wimbledon champion, hence the WCs for an obviously promising boy.
Djokovic hasn't played much junior tennis (his parents couldn't aford travelling costs , Serbian TA hadn't any money to support him))but his talent was seen in his game ever since he started his professional career 2003. He won couple of CH at age 17. Sure he didn't deserved any WC :rolleyes::oops:
 
C

Chadillac

Guest
Nothing to do with his nationality, everything do with lack of junior success, as he would rather focus in senior tennis right away. Novak chose that path for himself.

Federer was a top junior in 1998 & junior Wimbledon champion, hence the WCs for an obviously promising boy.

There are only a certain number of wildcards. Host countries usually give them their own players or people like Delpo who dropped in ranking. His nationality has a lot to do with wildcards.

Taylor Fritz was a top junior in the world, he got his wildcards in the us. Juniors are juniors, they arent comparable to a grown pro. Fans dont care about up and comers unless they are locals, would rather see established players that wont flame out 0-0 in the first round.
 
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Druss

Hall of Fame
It only shows how much of a 'fighter' Djoker was in the early stages of his career. Other than that doesn't really mean anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

S'in-net

Semi-Pro
Meh, It's like calling the US Open the
USTABJKNTC. Neither really has the same ring to it

Wimbledon, is common, and to loooong
And Wimbledon common is for wombles

d5eee629e7e8ecc5cebfb0558bda9836.jpg
wimbledon-fever-grips-the-nation_414949.jpg


http://uk.blastingnews.com/sport/2015/06/no-wombles-but-plenty-of-tennis-at-wimbledon-00459383.html
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic hasn't played much junior tennis (his parents couldn't aford travelling costs , Serbian TA hadn't any money to support him))but his talent was seen in his game ever since he started his professional career 2003. He won couple of CH at age 17. Sure he didn't deserved any WC :rolleyes::oops:
So many talents, so few WCs. The junior Wimbledon champion surely can't be left without WC. RG was surplus, not that it helped since Teenerer drew Rafter in R1, but hey he took a set, awesome!

Someone who is already winning challengers will attain direct entry into majors very soon anyway; just a different path. Don't you Novak fans think it helped mold him into the player he is (may well be true)? Then why salty? Find a different angle, be proud Djokovic double bagelled Ginepri as an 18 y.o. qualifier, that takes someone special (what an inconsistent guy Ginepri was... imagine someone getting pasted by an 18 y.o. now, weak era cries would not stop).
 

Noelan

Legend
So many talents, so few WCs. The junior Wimbledon champion surely can't be left without WC. RG was surplus, not that it helped since Teenerer drew Rafter in R1, but hey he took a set, awesome!

Someone who is already winning challengers will attain direct entry into majors very soon anyway; just a different path. Don't you Novak fans think it helped mold him into the player he is (may well be true)? Then why salty? Find a different angle, be proud Djokovic double bagelled Ginepri as an 18 y.o. qualifier, that takes someone special (what an inconsistent guy Ginepri was... imagine someone getting pasted by an 18 y.o. now, weak era cries would not stop).
You are crying about post when I said how difficult Djokovic path was.That's a fact, I din't ever mention your god , nor I said who is better:rolleyes:
Btw read Chadilac post.
 

Luckydog

Professional
This comparison makes nonsense.
If Djokovic is as good as you want to express,why does he starts his dominance until 2014 while Roger and Nadal are both old?
 

Jackuar

Hall of Fame
A Comparison...Of the Early Days :

Novak Djokovic :

Djokovic has three times played a Grand Slam qualifying tournament :

1) MelB 2005/Qualification tournament
Djokovic : Age 17...
Ranking 188/Unseeded in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt F. Piccari 6/3, 7/5
Rnd 2) Bt (32nd seed) S. Wawrinka 6/3, 6/1
Rnd 3) Bt (15th seed) W. Moodie 4/6, 6/3, 6/4

Qualified into : MelB 2005 Main Draw :
Rnd 1) Loses to (4th seed) M. Safin 0/3 and Safin goes on to win the tournament beating Federer/Hewitt in one of the greatest displays of all time...

2) RG 2005/Qualification tournament
Djokovic : Age 18...
Ranking 153/Seeded 15th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt G. Wiener 6/2, 6/3
Rnd 2) Bt F. Ferreiro 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 3) Bt M. Gicquel 6/4, 7/6

Qualified into : RG 2005 Main Draw :
Rnd 1) Bt R. Ginepri 6/0, 6/0, 6/3
Rnd 2) Lost to (8th seed) G. Coria 6/4, 2/6, 2/3 ret
At that time Coria was the second best clay courter in the world and had just had this run of form at the
last six clay majors he had played in : Monte Carlo 2004/Champion, Hamburg 2004/Runner-up,
RG 2004/Runner-up, Monte Carlo 2005/Runner-up, Rome 2005 /Runner-up, Hamburg 2005 qf
Djokovic himself was on an nine match winning streak going into this match having just won a clay challenger in San Remo + 3 rnds RG qualifying and won his 1st rnd main draw

3) AELTC 2005/Qualification tournament
Djokovic : Age 18...
Ranking 128/Seeded 17th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt B. Baker 1/1 ret
Rnd 2) Bt J. Wang 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 3) Bt (15th seed) W. Moodie 4/6, 6/0, 6/7, 7/6, 6/3
Djokovic beat Moodie in the last round of qualifying for the second time, both in close matches...
And Moodie qualified in the Mens Doubles this year, with Huss, and went right out and won the main event Mens Doubles beating the Bryan brothers in the Finals...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/4644175.stm

Qualified into : AELTC 2005 Main Draw :
Rnd 1) Bt J. Monaco 6/3, 7/6, 6/3
Rnd 2) Bt G. Garcia Lopez 3/6, 3/6, 7/6, 7/6, 6/4
Rnd 3) lost to (9th seed) S. Grosjean 5/7, 4/6, 7/5, 4/6
And Grosjean had made semis/semis the two previous years and lost in 5 sets quarters this year

Qualifying Match TOTALS : Played NINE : Won NINE (including beating three seeded players)

So early days Novak completed a Grand Slam Qualifying Hat-trick of tournaments in a row :
On Hard/Clay and Grass courts

Roger Federer :

Federer has twice played a Grand Slam qualifying tournament :

1) MelB 1999/Qualification tournament
Federer : Age 17...
Ranking 298/Unseeded in qualifying

Rnd 1) Lost to O. Delaitre 4/6, 4/6

(Federer didn't have to qualify for RG/AELTC 1999, because he got WC for both events)

2) USO 1999/Qualification tournament
Federer : Age 18...
Ranking 104/Seeded 4th in qualifying

Rnd 1) Bt E. Kempes 6/4, 6/4
Rnd 2) Lost to I. Heuberger 6/7, 2/6

Qualifying Match TOTALS : Played THREE : Won ONE/LOST TWO (Played no seeded players)


So, that means....

Federer -- AO 99 to USO 99 is a jump of 194 ranking places. Sure it shows the man's dedication and professionalism throughout the season.
Djokovic -- AO 05 to WO 05 .. That's two slams of main draws 3rd round and ranking from 188 to just 128 for USO --- 60 places. What was he doing the other times? Goofing around?

Such a shame, so much lost potential. Too bad he lost motivation after his glorious qualifying days. :rolleyes:
 
O

OhYes

Guest
This comparison makes nonsense.
If Djokovic is as good as you want to express,why does he starts his dominance until 2014 while Roger and Nadal are both old?
Because he started in 2011. From 2012 to 2014 there were players who don't call themselves Federer and Nadal, yet they won a Slam (Cilic, Wawrinka, Murray), Federer also won only 1 Slam. In 2015 Becker training started giving profit, it has nothing to do with old Federer.
 

S'in-net

Semi-Pro
So, that means....

Federer -- AO 99 to USO 99 is a jump of 194 ranking places. Sure it shows the man's dedication and professionalism throughout the season.
Djokovic -- AO 05 to WO 05 .. That's two slams of main draws 3rd round and ranking from 188 to just 128 for USO --- 60 places. What was he doing the other times? Goofing around?
Such a shame, so much lost potential. Too bad he lost motivation after his glorious qualifying days. :rolleyes:

Comparing 17-18 year old Djokovic/Federer :

Djokovic :

Challengers : Played ELEVEN : WON THREE (All whilst still 17)
Challengers record : !st Rnd/Then Won only the second Challenger he entered at Budapest (clay) on his 17th birthday/
QF/QF/Then Won only the fifth Challenger he entered at Aachen (indoor carpet) Bt Wawrinka, Norman, Bastl/
2nd Rnd Bratislava, Lost to World No. 14 Hrbaty, 4/6, 5/7, (Hrbaty playing in his home tournament)/
2nd Rnd/QF/SF/QF/Then Won San Remo (clay)...All at the age of 17

Won only the third Futures he ever entered (Serbia, outdoor hard) at just turned 16...This without even having an ATP ranking (unranked)...
Won another Futures, whilst still 16

Davis Cup debut first tie, aged 16, won his only match/second tie, aged 17, won both his matches/
Third tie, aged 17, lost to World No. 33 Rochus, 3/6 in the fifth

Bucharest ATP 250, aged 17, Bt World No. 67 Clement 6/4 in the 3rd, Lost to Ferrer 4/6 in the 3rd

Then in 2005, aged 18, after RG : (wasn't playing Future/Challengers anymore after San Remo)
ATP 250 Umag Lost to Ferrero/Cinci Masters Lost to Gonzalez/
Then reached 3rd Rnd USO Bt World No 43 Monfils 7/5 in the fifth, Bt World No. 24 Ancic in 4
Lost to World No. 48 Verdasco 4/6 in the fifth

Federer :

Challengers : Played EIGHT : WON ONE (Aged 18)
Challengers record : 1st Rnd/SF/2nd Rnd/1st Rnd/SF/SF/2nd Rnd/Won Brest aged 18 (Bt Mirnyi)

Futures record : Age 16, lost in Qualifying Ist Rnd (Germany, May 98)
The reason Federer didn't play any more Futures is because he got a WC into ATP 250 Gstaad 98 and a WC into ATP 250 Basel 98...
For instance, just getting that WC at Basel, and losing 1st Rnd in straights, meant his ranking went up 98 places from 396-298 (1 ATP point gained...)
And he helped himself as well with a tremendous performance, inbetween Gstaad and Basel, at ATP 250 Toulouse
where he won 3 rounds of qualifying without dropping a set and then made QF main event, which made his ranking go up to 396

Federer was worse in the Challengers at the same age but broke through in the ATP 250's faster
ATP 250 Toulouse 1998, aged 17, Bt World No. 45 Roux and World No. 43 Fromberg
ATP 250 Marseille 1999, aged 17, Bt World No. 5 Moya and World No. 63 Golmard
ATP 250 Rotterdam 1999, aged 17, Bt World No. 71 Roux and World No. 50 Ulirach
Which moved his ranking up from 298 at the beginning of the year to 129...Then in his next 5 tournaments his ranking only moved up 6 places to 123...
The plateaus are harder to maintain than the leaps...So from Rotterdam February 99, Federer had only moved up 6 places
until just before RG 99, (when the actual cut-off for entry was made), and still required a WC to get into the main event
Otherwize he would have been playing qualifying, and he still had not progressed enough in the rankings by USO 99
where he again needed to qualify, and lost in qualifying, aged 18
Outside of two Challengers where he made semis/semis, from Rotterdam 99 to USO 99, Federer went 3 : 13 in all other matches

The Federer 'leap' that you mentioned, certainly was not a year round dedication and professionalism shown by Federer...
 
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Urkezi

Semi-Pro
Because he started in 2011. From 2012 to 2014 there were players who don't call themselves Federer and Nadal, yet they won a Slam (Cilic, Wawrinka, Murray), Federer also won only 1 Slam. In 2015 Becker training started giving profit, it has nothing to do with old Federer.

Exactly. The guy being ranked no. 3 from 2007 to 2010 was actually Djovak Nokovic, which is why many people get confused. As for Nole, it seems as if he played challengers at 18, then disappeared until he was almost 24 and THEN he "started". Nothing to do at all with Nadal or Rog, plain as day :)
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Djokovic hasn't played much junior tennis (his parents couldn't aford travelling costs , Serbian TA hadn't any money to support him))WC :rolleyes::oops:

This is untrue. Novak lived and trained with Nikki Pillach in Munich for over a year, if not longer.
 

Noelan

Legend
This is untrue. Novak lived and trained with Nikki Pillach in Munich for over a year, if not longer.
His coach Jelena Gencic asked (actually sent young Djokovic with recommendation letter )Nikola Pilic (that is his name , former tennis player and Yugoslavian national team member, and Jelenas good friend ) who owned Tennis Academy in Germany to take and coach Novak on minimum costs that he and his business could afford.
So it's very true:)
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Comparing 17-18 year old Djokovic/Federer :

Djokovic :

Challengers : Played ELEVEN : WON THREE (All whilst still 17)
Challengers record : !st Rnd/Then Won only the second Challenger he entered at Budapest (clay) on his 17th birthday/
QF/QF/Then Won only the fifth Challenger he entered at Aachen (indoor carpet) Bt Wawrinka, Norman, Bastl/
2nd Rnd Bratislava, Lost to World No. 14 Hrbaty, 4/6, 5/7, (Hrbaty playing in his home tournament)/
2nd Rnd/QF/SF/QF/Then Won San Remo (clay)...All at the age of 17

Won only the third Futures he ever entered (Serbia, outdoor hard) at just turned 16...This without even having an ATP ranking (unranked)...
Won another Futures, whilst still 16

Davis Cup debut first tie, aged 16, won his only match/second tie, aged 17, won both his matches/
Third tie, aged 17, lost to World No. 33 Rochus, 3/6 in the fifth

Bucharest ATP 250, aged 17, Bt World No. 67 Clement 6/4 in the 3rd, Lost to Ferrer 4/6 in the 3rd

Then in 2005, aged 18, after RG : (wasn't playing Future/Challengers anymore after San Remo)
ATP 250 Umag Lost to Ferrero/Cinci Masters Lost to Gonzalez/
Then reached 3rd Rnd USO Bt World No 43 Monfils 7/5 in the fifth, Bt World No. 24 Ancic in 4
Lost to World No. 48 Verdasco 4/6 in the fifth

Federer :

Challengers : Played EIGHT : WON ONE (Aged 18)
Challengers record : 1st Rnd/SF/2nd Rnd/1st Rnd/SF/SF/2nd Rnd/Won Brest aged 18 (Bt Mirnyi)

Futures record : Age 16, lost in Qualifying Ist Rnd (Germany, May 98)
The reason Federer didn't play any more Futures is because he got a WC into ATP 250 Gstaad 98 and a WC into ATP 250 Basel 98...
For instance, just getting that WC at Basel, and losing 1st Rnd in straights, meant his ranking went up 98 places from 396-298 (1 ATP point gained...)
And he helped himself as well with a tremendous performance, inbetween Gstaad and Basel, at ATP 250 Toulouse
where he won 3 rounds of qualifying without dropping a set and then made QF main event, which made his ranking go up to 396

Federer was worse in the Challengers at the same age but broke through in the ATP 250's faster
ATP 250 Toulouse 1998, aged 17, Bt World No. 45 Roux and World No. 43 Fromberg
ATP 250 Marseille 1999, aged 17, Bt World No. 5 Moya and World No. 63 Golmard
ATP 250 Rotterdam 1999, aged 17, Bt World No. 71 Roux and World No. 50 Ulirach
Which moved his ranking up from 298 at the beginning of the year to 129...Then in his next 5 tournaments his ranking only moved up 6 places to 123...
The plateaus are harder to maintain than the leaps...So from Rotterdam February 99, Federer had only moved up 6 places
until just before RG 99, (when the actual cut-off for entry was made), and still required a WC to get into the main event
Otherwize he would have been playing qualifying, and he still had not progressed enough in the rankings by USO 99
where he again needed to qualify, and lost in qualifying, aged 18
Outside of two Challengers where he made semis/semis, from Rotterdam 99 to USO 99, Federer went 3 : 13 in all other matches

The Federer 'leap' that you mentioned, certainly was not a year round dedication and professionalism shown by Federer...

So it's a myth that Federer is naturally talented. Nadal leads them by a country mile as a teenager. Nadal is the one with the most natural talent.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
So it's a myth that Federer is naturally talented. Nadal leads them by a country mile as a teenager. Nadal is the one with the most natural talent.
Nadal has the most physical talent. Having the physicality of a young man already in teenage years certainly helped.

Compare Thiem and Coric, for example. Thiem was playing futures and challengers as a teenager, only relocating to ATP tour after he turned 20. Coric, who is about to turn 20, entered top 100 after beating Nadal at 17 and has been hovering in the top 50 for more than a year, whereas 20 y.o. Thiem was yet to enter top 100. However, Thiem is the one with more talent game-wise, and I have no doubt he will end up being (much) more successful to reflect it, while Coric has been simply making the most of his physical strength to rise early, and then prompty stagnated in the rankings because he can't improve.

My point: being an early bloomer does not equal having the most talent.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal has the most physical talent. Having the physicality of a young man already in teenage years certainly helped.

Compare Thiem and Coric, for example. Thiem was playing futures and challengers as a teenager, only relocating to ATP tour after he turned 20. Coric, who is about to turn 20, entered top 100 after beating Nadal at 17 and has been hovering in the top 50 for more than a year, whereas 20 y.o. Thiem was yet to enter top 100. However, Thiem is the one with more talent game-wise, and I have no doubt he will end up being (much) more successful to reflect it, while Coric has been simply making the most of his physical strength to rise early, and then prompty stagnated in the rankings because he can't improve.

My point: being an early bloomer does not equal having the most talent.
Your point "being an early bloomer does not equal having the most talent" is an oxymoron.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Your point "being an early bloomer does not equal having the most talent" is an oxymoron.
It is not. "The earlier you rise, the more talented you are" is a false maxim.
Another take is possible: the bigger your talent is, the more time it takes to refine, but when the process is complete, it shines more than anyone else's.
The truth must, as always, be somewhere in-between.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
It is not. "The earlier you rise, the more talented you are" is a false maxim.
Another take is possible: the bigger your talent is, the more time it takes to refine, but when the process is complete, it shines more than anyone else's.
The truth must, as always, be somewhere in-between.
You have to try harder because what you are saying is so illogical. Comparing Coric beating Nadal at 17 with Nadal's achievements as a teenager is a joke, notwithstanding the fact that when Coric beat Rafa, Rafa was suffering from appendicitis and only played to fulfil his obligations to the tournament.
 

Urkezi

Semi-Pro
You have to try harder because what you are saying is so illogical. Comparing Coric beating Nadal at 17 with Nadal's achievements as a teenager is a joke, notwithstanding the fact that when Coric beat Rafa, Rafa was suffering from appendicitis and only played to fulfil his obligations to the tournament.

Lol. If we let go of the fact that you can't grasp a very simple comparison and actually read what the guy is saying, did you ever have appendicitis? Have you played a tennis match with that or say, just made 2-3 squats?
And unrelated to that has Nadal ever lost a match completely healthy? :)
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
You have to try harder because what you are saying is so illogical. Comparing Coric beating Nadal at 17 with Nadal's achievements as a teenager is a joke, notwithstanding the fact that when Coric beat Rafa, Rafa was suffering from appendicitis and only played to fulfil his obligations to the tournament.
I'm not comparing Coric to Nadal. I am comparing Coric to Thiem as an example of one player blooming much earlier than the other player but nevertheless being the least talented of the two, to prove my point that being an early bloomer does not mean having the most talent.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not comparing Coric to Nadal. I am comparing Coric to Thiem as an example of one player blooming much earlier than the other player but nevertheless being the least talented of the two, to prove my point that being an early bloomer does not mean having the most talent.
How has Coric bloomed?
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Coric is 19, his career win/loss ratio is 55/60, he's never made a final let alone win a title. How can he be an early bloomer?
 
Why has it backfired. Rafa was a winner from day one so he was born great.

It basically amounts to the conclusion that greatness was bestowed upon Federer from someone that has the power to bestow greatness (who?) and also to the conclusion that there is no excuse for Nadal and Djokovic that they are not in front of Federer in their standing in the tennis world.

:cool:
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
It basically amounts to the conclusion that greatness was bestowed upon Federer from someone that has the power to bestow greatness (who?) and also to the conclusion that there is no excuse for Nadal and Djokovic that they are not in front of Federer in their standing in the tennis world.

:cool:
What it means, is that Federer was given the title of greatness by people who rushed to crown him the GOAT not knowing that he would be eclipsed by younger players.
 
What it means, is that Federer was given the title of greatness by people who rushed to crown him the GOAT not knowing that he would be eclipsed by younger players.

You are wrong.

Most people that know their stuff still put him ahead of Nadal and Djokovic, long after they "eclipsed" him.

:cool:
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Do you mean that when newborn Rafa crawled out of his mother, he already looked like the future GOAT? Tell me, how do you spot a winner when looking at a newborn?
The fact that you think Nadal 'crawled' out of his mother is a sign of greatness as newborn babies can't usually crawl.
 
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