Novak Djokovic and The USO - Can he end his career there as the USO Open Era's greatest champion?

I haven't lost anything. I'm tired of hearing all the Djokovic hype because it's borderline sickening. I simply said how I felt and that's that. No winners or losers here bub. A choker will never be my UO GOAT.
The logic behind your opinion was weak. Not all opinions are created equal. The bold logic is even weaker, by that logic Novak could win 10 us opens and that couldn't undo "choking" (Which where was the choking in 2010 and 2011 SF?)

This thread was fair and many gave fair answers. I said he isn't till 5 and not unequivocally till 6. I consider Federer the UO Goat now btw.

YOU are the one with the weird personal issue with Djokovic and or his fans (as evidenced by looking thru your posts and threads you have created).

We all have out favorites and those we don't like and that may include most of their fans. But in your case it is clouding your logic to the point of embarrassment.
 
The logic behind your opinion was weak. Not all opinions are created equal. The bold logic is even weaker, by that logic Novak could win 10 us opens and that couldn't undo "choking" (Which where was the choking in 2010 and 2011 SF?)

This thread was fair and many gave fair answers. I said he isn't till 5 and not unequivocally till 6. I consider Federer the UO Goat now btw.

YOU are the one with the weird personal issue with Djokovic and or his fans (as evidenced by looking thru your posts and threads you have created).

We all have out favorites and those we don't like and that may include most of their fans. But in your case it is clouding your logic to the point of embarrassment.
Right now at this moment, Djokovic has a 3-5 record there in finals. I'm not rewarding him for losing over and over again. If you want to reward players for losing you go right ahead. You do that.
 
Right now at this moment, Djokovic has a 3-5 record there in finals. I'm not rewarding him for losing over and over again. If you want to reward players for losing you go right ahead. You do that.
You just changed the argument. No one said he is the best with only 3 titles. The argument was extra finals helps if he ties the record.
 
I haven't lost anything. I'm tired of hearing all the Djokovic hype because it's borderline sickening. I simply said how I felt and that's that. No winners or losers here bub. A choker will never be my UO GOAT.
So anything other than 24/7 Federer hype on here is too much for you? Lol. You come off like a severe Djokovic detractor these days so it's hard to take any opinion from you seriously.
 
So anything other than 24/7 Federer hype on here is too much for you? Lol. You come off like a severe Djokovic detractor these days so it's hard to take any opinion from you seriously.
You guys take someone disagreeing with you as as someone being a detractor. Either he's being hyped to no end or leapfrogging past ATG like nothing. Slams are being thrown out the window like nothing. Nadal has lost all respect now. It's just bs. I have a right to an opinion like anyone else.
 
Apparently extra finals are great, IF your winning percentage is above 50%. Otherwise, you are actually a failure. :confused:
According to some Djokovic fans he is the HC Goat right?So the supposed HC Goat have lost 5 Slam finals from 8 at US Open.I don't know for you but him losing 5 finals at HC Slam is not good outlook for a lot of people.HC is his best surface and he should have done better at US Open.He underachieved at this Slam.The fact that some people are trying to deny this is laughable.
 
You guys take someone disagreeing with you as as someone being a detractor. Either he's being hyped to no end or leapfrogging past ATG like nothing. Slams are being thrown out the window like nothing. Nadal has lost all respect now. It's just bs. I have a right to an opinion like anyone else.
No you said the Djokovic hype is borderline sickening. My question to you is it a problem when it's not Federer hype non-stop? Basically Federer gets hyped on here more than anyone else especially since it's a pro Federer site. It's more than disagreeing and pretty obvious really. Who has he leap frogged and what Slams are being thrown out the window? You have a right to an opinion and anyone else has a right to say how that opinion is clouded in bias and doesn't make sense.
 
No you said the Djokovic hype is borderline sickening. My question to you is it a problem when it's not Federer hype non-stop? Basically Federer gets hyped on here more than anyone else especially since it's a pro Federer site. It's more than disagreeing and pretty obvious really. Who has he leap frogged and what Slams are being thrown out the window? You have a right to an opinion and anyone else has a right to say how that opinion is clouded in bias and doesn't make sense.
You are pretty reasonable most of the time, but you don't see that you also are guilty of bias at times. Then again I think you know this. I know for a fact that if the shoe was on the other foot and Federer was 3-5 in UO finals that you guys would make the same arguement. We would say more finals! You would say he can't even win when he makes the final!! lmao!! Lalalala. I already know.
 
You are pretty reasonable most of the time, but you don't see that you also are guilty of bias at times. Then again I think you know this. I know for a fact that if the shoe was on the other foot and Federer was 3-5 in UO finals that you guys would make the same arguement. We would say more finals! You would say he can't even win when he makes the final!! lmao!! Lalalala. I already know.
I am biased like anyone else but I can give credit where it's due and separate fact from fiction. No you tried to say Djokovic was a failure at the USO which is ridiculous and why so many in here disagree with you. How can you win a Slam 3 different times, make the SF or better for 11 years straight and be a failure? Not only that but you also said that he had "lucky wins over Federer" at the USO and a 5-5 record wouldn't be enough to place him over certain others at the USO. That is letting your bias cloud your judgment and makes you look like a Djokovic detractor, especially considering the other posts you have made recently.
 
According to some Djokovic fans he is the HC Goat right?So the supposed HC Goat have lost 5 Slam finals from 8 at US Open.I don't know for you but him losing 5 finals at HC Slam is not good outlook for a lot of people.HC is his best surface and he should have done better at US Open.He underachieved at this Slam.The fact that some people are trying to deny this is laughable.
Nobody is more pissed by his underachieving at the US Open than his fans. :D But the overall title count, it's pretty close now, and going far was always considered better than losing early. This should be no exception.
 
I am biased like anyone else but I can give credit where it's due and separate fact from fiction. No you tried to say Djokovic was a failure at the USO which is ridiculous and why so many in here disagree with you. How can you win a Slam 3 different times, make the SF or better for 11 years straight and be a failure? Not only that but you also said that he had "lucky wins over Federer" at the USO and a 5-5 record wouldn't be enough to place him over certain others at the USO. That is letting your bias cloud your judgment and makes you look like a Djokovic detractor, especially considering the other posts you have made recently.
Most of it is me reacting to the extreme posters of your fanbase. Even some reasonable ones like yourself like to give him a little too much leeway at times. I do feel like he had a lot of luck in his wins over Federer at UO. A lot of Fed fans feel that way. That's not anything new or special. I said earlier that "failure" was a bit much. I addressed that already. I understand the enthusiasm you guys have, but it gets out of hand at times imo. It's not anything against Djokovic himself. I use to hate him, but I don't now and haven't for a while. I use to hate his attitude and his dominance at what I thought was an opportune time after 2012. So many of you on here have a chip on your shoulder it seems to me. The world is against Djokovic mentality. As a Fed fan, it's my place to stand up to nonsense when I see it. For example, putting Djokovic ahead of Nadal at the moment is ludicrous imo. It is what it is.
 

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Professional
Yes he can. 2 more titles seem doable at this moment in time, but we all know how easily things take drastic turns in tennis. What a turn that would be though.

Also, still putting my hopes in Federer winning one more in NY. Really unlikely but maybe if they make the USO faster again?
at 38+ is not gonna happen.
 
Most of it is me reacting to the extreme posters of your fanbase. Even some reasonable ones like yourself like to give him a little too much leeway at times. I do feel like he had a lot of luck in his wins over Federer at UO. A lot of Fed fans feel that way. That's not anything new or special. I said earlier that "failure" was a bit much. I addressed that already. I understand the enthusiasm you guys have, but it gets out of hand at times imo. It's not anything against Djokovic himself. I use to hate him, but I don't now and haven't for a while. I use to hate his attitude and his dominance at what I thought was an opportune time after 2012. So many of you on here have a chip on your shoulder it seems to me. The world is against Djokovic mentality. As a Fed fan, it's my place to stand up to nonsense when I see it. For example, putting Djokovic ahead of Nadal at the moment is ludicrous imo. It is what it is.
Is it luck? Federer has lost 20 matches in his career from match point up. Not many others, if any, have lost that many from that position and like I said earlier, one time is lucky and 2 times is not. Besides the matches were 8 or 9 years ago and time to accept them for what they are. Every fanbase is going to have overzealous members but that still should not drive anyone to the point where they lose sense of all reason. You may see it as you standing up to nonsense but don't be surprised when people push back when they feel like Djokovic's accomplishments are being denigrated.
 
I'm of the opinion on this specific matter that a tie is a tie. When looking at the history books, it will say tied, players with the same amount of titles will always be on the same column, not below or above eachother. Then of course you can look at consistency and finals too as a tiebreaker but in the end they will always have the same amount of titles. Therefore it's hard to name someone GOAT at an event in matters such as these. Neither Federer, Connors nor Sampras are GOATs at USO in the OE. As a matter of fact there is no stand alone leader. Tilden, Sears and Renshaw too has 7 titles a piece.

So Djokovic will need 6 USOs for OE GOAT.
I can agree 6 would be needed for unequivocal best and that is unlikely
It is good some fans understand why Novak needs a 6th here. Media will always list achievements in chronological order by date.
 
Is it luck? Federer has lost 20 matches in his career from match point up. Not many others, if any, have lost that many from that position and like I said earlier, one time is lucky and 2 times is not. Besides the matches were 8 or 9 years ago and time to accept them for what they are. Every fanbase is going to have overzealous members but that still should not drive anyone to the point where they lose sense of all reason. You may see it as you standing up to nonsense but don't be surprised when people push back when they feel like Djokovic's accomplishments are being denigrated.
So you think I've lost all sense of reason because I don't think 5 is enough because of his record there? That's how this all started. I don't think that's being unreasonable. I think it's just something you don't want to hear. As far as luck goes with Djokovic, we will never agree on that. He went big in a moment that guys just don't do that. He was ready to walk up and shake hands with Fed before he made that shot back in 2011 and there ain't nothing anyone can say to change my mind.
 
put $100 if you think that will happen.
I said I hope it will happen because it is possible although the chances are small. Maybe I will bet some money if Federer's in good form come the USO, but don't confuse my "Federer can do it" with "He is totally winning the USO again".
 
So you think I've lost all sense of reason because I don't think 5 is enough because of his record there? That's how this all started. I don't think that's being unreasonable. I think it's just something you don't want to hear. As far as luck goes with Djokovic, we will never agree on that. He went big in a moment that guys just don't do that. He was ready to walk up and shake hands with Fed before he made that shot back in 2011 and there ain't nothing anyone can say to change my mind.
Well yeah especially if you felt like Federer was the AO GOAT when he was tied with 6 and he had more finals. It is basically the same thing yet you are trying to hold Djokovic to a different standard. That is not being reasonable at the end of the day and is a double standard. As far as 2011 USO, Djokovic went big in a moment that guys just don't do that because he is not a run of the mill average player and is a champion. Regardless if you feel it was luck or not, Djokovic is the 2011 USO champion and that's been settled a long time ago.
 
I am genuinely concerned for his well being. Forum dynamics aside, I don't wish ill on anyone's health in real life.

Sounds like he has become unglued totally due to the success of a certain wiry Serb, and may not be sleeping or eating in adequate amounts due to the omnipresent defensive and butt hurt replies to anything Djokovic.

I can see him on an old Nokia constantly refreshing TT using dodgy WiFi at some local Starbucks before being told it's 11 PM and to go back out on the street.

Wish there was a number of a social worker or caretaker that I could call :-D
Haha, so bitchy 125! You could give @NatF a run for his money at this rate. :p;)
 
Well yeah especially if you felt like Federer was the AO GOAT when he was tied with 6 and he had more finals. It is basically the same thing yet you are trying to hold Djokovic to a different standard. That is not being reasonable at the end of the day and is a double standard. As far as 2011 USO, Djokovic went big in a moment that guys just don't do that because he is not a run of the mill average player and is a champion. Regardless if you feel it was luck or not, Djokovic is the 2011 USO champion and that's been settled a long time ago.
It's not a double standard because Fed doesn't have a losing record in AO finals. It's not the same. Two different arguements.
 
One of No1e's problems at USO is that he has never defending his title. Defending titles is a very important factor for me. To make Ultron the GOAT of USO, he has to get 6 titles. 5 titles for GOAT USO can not be enough, due to Federer's series of 5 titles in row in a years 2004-08, which are four successful defences. To overcome Federer on USO, Djoker needs 3 titles.

At the moment, Djoker is not in the group 5 greaterst players at USO history. More titles than Ultron have Federer, Connors, Sampras, McEnroe. The last place in the Top 5 belongs to Lendl, who has three USO titles, as Djoker, but also two successful defences, even managed to complete the hat-trick, this record has already reached only Big Mac and Fed at USO. If Djoker gains the 4th USO title, will overcomes Lendl, but he will be behind Big Mac (because Big Mac also owns the hat-trick). If Ultron gains the 5th USO title, will overcomes Big Mac.

If Djoker had 5 USO titles and had two successful defenses on his account, he would have exceeded Connors and Sampras, who managed only once to defend the title.

In this thread, they are opinions, that Djoker's advantage is 8 participations in the finals, but 5 of them Djoker lost and the lost finals are double-sided weapon. They show the very good consistency of the tennis player, but also his weaker success in the finals.
 
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Here is another way of looking at this. What would guys like Nadal!, Djoker and Fed have done with Connor’s years at grass, clay, then hard courts at the USO?

The USO for Jimmy:
Grass through age-23 season
Clay age 24 and 25 seasons
Hard court age-26+ seasons

With the formula above, I think that Djoker and Fed each lose a title while Nadal gains a title.

This has me taking Connors over a Djoker at 5 each.
But USO in years 1975-77 was not played on classic red/orange clay, but for green clay. And as Madrid 2012 showed (Bull lost in 3R against Verdasco 3:6, 6:3, 5:7), Nadal doesn't like other clay than the classic red/orange clay.
 
He has a negative H2H there in the finals 3-5, after USO 2013, Djokovic had a losing H2H against all remaining members of the big four, he was 1-2 against Nadal, 0-1 against Murray, and 2-3 against Federer.

The USO historically hasn't always been his favorite place to pick up the trophy, and he is often touted at the Lendl of this era at the USO. Lendl has similar kind of stats when it comes to finals.

But...can he actually turn it around to become the most successful there?

Djokovic needs at least two more USO wins to be included in that conversation, since Federer, Sampras and Connors all have five each and have incredible feats to go with it, Federer won five in a row, Sampras has the crazy longevity between first and last win, and Connors won it on three different surfaces...Djokovic, should he equal them could have his own claim...more overall finals. He has evened his H2H with Federer and Murray, but Nadal still holds a 2-1 H2H over him, that is still better than all three holding a winning H2H over him.

With the way the competition currently is, the level of Djokovic still very potent and finally taking into consideration that Ashe is now playing more to Novak's taste, with there being little to no wind and a much slowed down court, two more USOs are not improbable at the moment. Anything can happen, and he can drop off, but there is a strong possibility with the amount of times he will have a chance, he has a good chance.

If he manages to tie the five slams, where would you personally put him? Do you value his overall consistency of 10 straight years making semis, and more overall final appearances higher, lower, or the same level as the incredible feats of Sampras, Federer, and Connors. To me, it doesn't look like we have a true USO GOAT of the Open Era, and unless someone breaks the tie with six, it will stay that way.

How do you see his finally tally ending up there?
No, but I'm generally wrong in predicting. I think we're going to see him start to:

A: slow down over the next two years.
B: face more competition

What is going on now just can't continue forever. At his age he should not be doing what he is doing now. Someone should be stepping up. To be fair, I don't think Fed should have been able to win three slams starting in 2017. These players actually did worse result wise in years when they were playing even better, like Fed against Djoker in 2015.
 
Any player would prefer to lose in the final than an earlier round so I agree with you. The Federer and Pete comparison at Wimbledon was close but by the time Federer made the final in 2014 and 2015, he had pretty much separated himself at that point. Still, Pete's record of 7-0 in finals gave him certain bragging rights so some could have argued in his favor but Federer broke the tie anyway and became the all time GOAT so it doesn't matter now. I probably would say Djokovic was the Open Era USO GOAT with 5 titles and 7 finals, and place him over Connors as well. I don't think a losing record in finals would matter in that situation.
For Andre Agassi was better lost in the semifinal than in the final (according to his autobiography Open).
 
I think if he reached 5 it would probably go to him due to all his extra finals and semis. I definitely wouldnt put Federer over him at that point, even with his 5 in a row, and definitely wouldnt put Sampras over him either at that point. Sampras actually would have nothing to put him over Djokovic at that point, Federer would always have the 5 in a row as an argument. Only maybe Connors due to his winning on all 3 surfaces.
 
How is 5-5 not better than 5-2
A tennis player with a 5:5 balance has a success of 50 % in the finals.
A tennis player with a 5:2 balance has a success of 71,4 % in the finals.

When Federer and Djokovic were tied at AO, Djokovic fans used the same tactic even though Federer had been more consistent there throughout his career. H2h was thrown around and everything under the sun.
For me in a time, when both players had 6 titles, Djoker was a greater AO player thanks to a higher number of successful defenses of titles - 2012, 2013, 2016; while Fed 2007 and 2018.
 
A tennis player with a 5:5 balance has a success of 50 % in the finals.
A tennis player with a 5:2 balance has a success of 71,4 % in the finals.


For me in a time, when both players had 6 titles, Djoker was a greater AO player thanks to a higher number of successful defenses of titles - 2012, 2013, 2016; while Fed 2007 and 2018.
Djokovic had a much stronger argument with a tie at AO. I can agree with that and I see your point of view. He's been a one man wrecking crew there and now has the most titles anyway. He deserves to be called AO Goat. The UO on the other hand, is a different story. Losing a crapload of finals can't be ignored no matter how much some want it to be.
 
Djokovic had a much stronger argument with a tie at AO. I can agree with that and I see your point of view. He's been a one man wrecking crew there and now has the most titles anyway. He deserves to be called AO Goat. The UO on the other hand, is a different story. Losing a crapload of finals can't be ignored no matter how much some want it to be.
AO yes, USO no! This doesn't make any sense; USO ERA great! He owns 3 titles with several other players with almost twice as many! IDIOTIC! :unsure: :cautious: :rolleyes: :(
 
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