Novak Djokovic is still the best player on clay

Also you do NOT need to be best on a surface to win slam..

Nadal won ao 22 when he was not top 2 favorite.

Most of the times on hard court competition is such that best players can be beaten. That's why even if Nole isn't top best on any surface of any slam today, he still has chances. In fact clay being a specialist surface, it would be even tougher to break through here than on hc.
 
NoleFam said:
Sinner hasn't won anything important on clay yet and was 11-2 this year with no top 5 wins. Alcaraz was 10-1 and beat Sinner and Zverev. Why would Sinner be #1?

I just don't agree man, sorry. I wasn't that impressed with the level in the final this year. It wasn't terrible but not outstanding either. To look at it statiscally, Alcaraz and Djokovic hit the same amount of winners in the 2023 final vs 2024 final (52 winners) despite it being 3 sets vs 5 sets, but Djokovic had 24 less errors.
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Except Ruud and Zverev are not on same tier.

Ruud is at the bottom tier of contenders on clay. Zverev is somewhere in the middle.
 
@NoleFam I would still put tsitsipas ahead of Casper Ruud on clay and Ruud was the finalist.

Roland Garros 2024 Contenders

1. Novak Djokovic - 3 time Roland Garros champion, won 2 of the last 3 titles and lost third to eventual winner. Has taken apart Nadal Tsitsipas Ruud Zverev and Alcaraz who are all on the LIST. 2. Carlos Alcaraz - 20 years old with 7 clay titles. Already won 2 Madrid titles and 2 Barcelona...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Sinner is recent addition and was injured this year on clay season but he was pretty dominant for the time he played. Let's be thankful he wasn't part of Olympics otherwise odds are Nole would play sinneraz back to back for the gold.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
@NoleFam I would still put tsitsipas ahead of Casper Ruud on clay and Ruud was the finalist.

Roland Garros 2024 Contenders

1. Novak Djokovic - 3 time Roland Garros champion, won 2 of the last 3 titles and lost third to eventual winner. Has taken apart Nadal Tsitsipas Ruud Zverev and Alcaraz who are all on the LIST. 2. Carlos Alcaraz - 20 years old with 7 clay titles. Already won 2 Madrid titles and 2 Barcelona...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Sinner is recent addition and was injured this year on clay season but he was pretty dominant for the time he played. Let's be thankful he wasn't part of Olympics otherwise odds are Nole would play sinneraz back to back for the gold.
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I wouldn't at RG. Tsistipas hasn't done anything at RG since 2021 and is Alcaraz's punching bag right now. He needs to play it like it's Monte Carlo.

I don't agree with Sinner being #1 clay Elo. That makes no sense for him to be over Alcaraz, even if we went back 2 years instead of 1. That calculation must be off.
 
NoleFam said:
I wouldn't at RG. Tsistipas hasn't done anything at RG since 2021 and is Alcaraz's punching bag right now. He needs to play it like it's Monte Carlo.

I don't agree with Sinner being #1 clay Elo. That makes no sense for him to be over Alcaraz, even if we went back 2 years instead of 1. That calculation must be off.
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Tsitsipas won mc and made final of Barcelona. That's 1330 pts right there. Beaten Sinner.
Qf of rg where he faced his kryptonite Alcaraz.

He has top 10 wins vs zverev sinner and Ruud just in MC. That was powerplay. All three would be my list of rg contenders.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Tsitsipas won mc and made final of Barcelona. That's 1330 pts right there. Beaten Sinner.
Qf of rg where he faced his kryptonite Alcaraz.

He has top 10 wins vs zverev sinner and Ruud just in MC. That was powerplay. All three would be my list of rg contenders.
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Yea good clay season until he got straightsetted, again, by Alcaraz at RG. Also, Ruud won more clay points this season.

Yea but RG is not MC. He plays great there and then has no answers for Alcaraz when they meet at RG.
 
Rosstour said:
Look at the players.

Zverev had to go through Rune and Ruud, both of them are top players who are best on clay.

And would you rather face Eubanks on clay, or Rafa? Lmao
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I don't take the sinner draw at all. His draw was a joke.
What I take is the way sinner played. It was crushing tennis from both sides.

I wouldn't be surprised if sinner is multi time rg champion in next 5 years tbh.

Zverev went to fifth set vs griekspoor ffs.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I don't take the sinner draw at all. His draw was a joke.
What I take is the way sinner played. It was crushing tennis from both sides.

I wouldn't be surprised if sinner is multi time rg champion in next 5 years tbh.

Zverev went to fifth set vs griekspoor ffs.
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Sir, Sinner has one title on clay in his entire career, a 250 in Umag 2022.

He withdrew from Barcelona 2023 after struggling against Nishioka there.

His career arc so far suggests he's going to dominate hard courts, but I don't see anything there to indicate he will win multiple RGs in this decade.
 
Rosstour said:
Sir, Sinner has one title on clay in his entire career, a 250 in Umag 2022.

He withdrew from Barcelona 2023 after struggling against Nishioka there.

His career arc so far suggests he's going to dominate hard courts, but I don't see anything there to indicate he will win multiple RGs in this decade.
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I can give 2 ****s what sinner has his entire career.

The rise is meteoric and numbers don't matter before that. Anyway he made rg semi at age 22 it's not like the guy is too old.

Roger first made semi of rg in 2005 at age 23+
 
geromino said:
One may point to the failures of the 2024 clay season. Djokovic no longer cares about the masters, and tore his meniscus at Roland Garros. We saw in the Olympics what Djokovic at 37 post meniscus surgery is still capable of on clay. With Sinner dominating hard courts and Alcaraz dominating grass, the 2025 Roland Garros is Djokovic's best chance at slam #25. Discuss.
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Alcaraz by a country mile.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I can give 2 ****s what sinner has his entire career.

The rise is meteoric and numbers don't matter before that. Anyway he made rg semi at age 22 it's not like the guy is too old.

Roger first made semi of rg in 2005 at age 23+
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Yeah, and Fed ended up with 1 RG crown and everyone makes fun of him for sucking on clay despite winning so many matches. Bad example

It might happen but you're doing magical thinking again to say "he's so good he will win everywhere and the past doesn't matter"

You seem to be drunk on all the winning from Nole and unwilling to give that up, so you're trying to make Sinner into someone he's not (or hasn't been yet)

"i don't care about the draw" and "i don't care about his past performance" aren't logical things to say. Just emotionally shutting out information that conflicts with your desires
 
Rosstour said:
Yeah, and Fed ended up with 1 RG crown and everyone makes fun of him for sucking on clay despite winning so many matches. Bad example

It might happen but you're doing magical thinking again to say "he's so good he will win everywhere and the past doesn't matter"

You seem to be drunk on all the winning from Nole and unwilling to give that up, so you're trying to make Sinner into someone he's not (or hasn't been yet)

"i don't care about the draw" and "i don't care about his past performance" aren't logical things to say. Just emotionally shutting out information that conflicts with your desires
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"No true scholar of tennis would ever say Federer sucked on clay. Being the 23,876th best of your era is no small feat."
 
Rosstour said:
Yeah, and Fed ended up with 1 RG crown and everyone makes fun of him for sucking on clay despite winning so many matches. Bad example

It might happen but you're doing magical thinking again to say "he's so good he will win everywhere and the past doesn't matter"

You seem to be drunk on all the winning from Nole and unwilling to give that up, so you're trying to make Sinner into someone he's not (or hasn't been yet)
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We make fun of fed when comparing to greatest on clay but Fed is in top 10/15 of all time. Let's stop playing victim.

If sinner wins more than 1 rg then it would be enough.

I am not drunk. It's done. Sinner is so good he will win everywhere and for him past doesn't matter.
 
TearTheRoofOff said:
"No true scholar of tennis would ever say Federer sucked on clay. Being the 23,876th best of your era is no small feat."
Click to expand...

Federer was for a long time the 2nd place player on the all time list of Roland Garros match wins behind Rafa.

Djoko might have passed him, but Fed was a top 5 player all time on clay. Without Rafa he has 5-6 RGs and is right up there with Borg for CLAYGOAT
 
nolefam_2024 said:
We make fun of fed when comparing to greatest on clay but Fed is in top 10/15 of all time. Let's stop playing victim.

If sinner wins more than 1 rg then it would be enough.

I am not drunk. It's done. Sinner is so good he will win everywhere and for him past doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

Nothing is done until it happens. Such thinking is dangerous. Ask Putin in Ukraine. He celebrated before he even started the war and now look. Overconfidence is a killer
 
Rosstour said:
Nothing is done until it happens. Such thinking is dangerous. Ask Putin in Ukraine. He celebrated before he even started the war and now look. Overconfidence is a killer
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We are not talking war.

I will not stop. Modest expectation is sinner being top 2 player on clay. It's very modest expectation. Carlos is no Nadal and sinner can beat him on clay or won't even face him in title run more likely.

So sinner being top 2 on clay is very modest expectation. More than likely he wins multiple rg titles. We will see.

And we don't need to fear future. Saying sinner wins 10 rg is dangerous. Saying he is ahead of all but Carlos is not dangerous to me.
 
Rosstour said:
Federer was for a long time the 2nd place player on the all time list of Roland Garros match wins behind Rafa.

Djoko might have passed him, but Fed was a top 5 player all time on clay. Without Rafa he has 5-6 RGs and is right up there with Borg for CLAYGOAT
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Come on man, lol.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
We are not talking war.

I will not stop. Modest expectation is sinner being top 2 player on clay. It's very modest expectation. Carlos is no Nadal and sinner can beat him on clay or won't even face him in title run more likely.

So sinner being top 2 on clay is very modest expectation. More than likely he wins multiple rg titles. We will see.

And we don't need to fear future. Saying sinner wins 10 rg is dangerous. Saying he is ahead of all but Carlos is not dangerous to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is crazy talk until he wins one sir. Sounds a bit unhinged if I'm honest

"I will not stop". Yes, ignore the haters. You are the main character.

Carlos has already won RG over the absolute best players he could face. And yet I'm absolutely aware that he could be stopped at one title. It is not guaranteed for either of them
 
Rosstour said:
Yeah this is crazy talk until he wins one sir. Sounds a bit unhinged if I'm honest

"I will not stop". Yes, ignore the haters. You are the main character.

Carlos has already won RG over the absolute best players he could face. And yet I'm absolutely aware that he could be stopped at one title. It is not guaranteed for either of them
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Ok then ignore me.

For you Roger lost the clay surface discussion and you are here coping.

For us it doesn't matter, Roger who.

I am talking current generation. Not old wogi.
 
NoleFam said:
Come on man, lol.
Click to expand...

Numbers are numbers and until Novak, only Nadal had won more matches at RG than Fed.

I'm not even sure Novak has passed him, I'm just assuming.

And ok, I'm sure you will argue that Novak is a better player at RG because more titles and he has wins over Rafa. But 2011 SF says "not so fast"
 
Rosstour said:
Numbers are numbers and until Novak, only Nadal had won more matches at RG than Fed.

I'm not even sure Novak has passed him, I'm just assuming.

And ok, I'm sure you will argue that Novak is a better player at RG because more titles and he has wins over Rafa. But 2011 SF says "not so fast"
Click to expand...
Oh you are not even sure. My ass.

Roger had most matches won because he played every year for few years.

Nole is 15+ match wins ahead of old Rog at rg if I am right.
 
Rosstour said:
Numbers are numbers and until Novak, only Nadal had won more matches at RG than Fed.

I'm not even sure Novak has passed him, I'm just assuming.

And ok, I'm sure you will argue that Novak is a better player at RG because more titles and he has wins over Rafa.
Click to expand...
Yea but that's because the OGs threw in the towel at 30 or before. Borg said bye bye at 25. You have to look at percentage of wins, who they were playing and beating, top 10 and top 5 wins, etc.

No I'm not because I am exhausted of rehashing that debate over and over.
 
Rosstour said:
Dude, YOU were the one who brought up Federer. Not me.
Click to expand...
And my point was sound. Old results don't matter.

Until age 23 Roger didn't even make a semis of rg and yet he ended up having top 10/15 on clay.

Sinner is ahead of Roger. Past results don't matter when sinner is dominant number 1. Now surfaces won't matter for him. Just come and be among top 1/2 favorite everywhere.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
And my point was sound. Old results don't matter.

Until age 23 Roger didn't even make a semis of rg and yet he ended up having top 10/15 on clay.

Sinner is ahead of Roger. Past results don't matter when sinner is dominant number 1. Now surfaces won't matter for him. Just come and be among top 1/2 favorite everywhere.
Click to expand...

And Roger ended up getting one RG win. So he doesn't prove your point that Sinner is def gonna get multiples.

"Past doesn't matter". OK then I can say Shapovalov will win multiple Wimbledons. Screw the haters, I will not stop.
 
Rosstour said:
And Roger ended up getting one RG win. So he doesn't prove your point that Sinner is def gonna get multiples.

"Past doesn't matter". OK then I can say Shapovalov will win multiple Wimbledons. Screw the haters, I will not stop.
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Don't stop. Except in your case you are lying you o yourself. And I am not lying to myself.
 
55.5% of total points won on clay by sinner this year.

That number is so high that aside from Nadal for many years , only guys who made it in last 21+ years (all Roger Federer's years included) are Coria in 2003 and Djokovic in 2011/2015/2021/2024.
 
For same age Federer was 55-28 on clay.
Djokovic is 83-30.
Sinner is 54-22.

All are not natural clay courters but likely going to dominate hard courts.

It's highly likely sinner will win at least 1 rg if not multiple.

Andy Murray was merely 26-22.
Zverev was 77-33.
Tsitsipas was 60-21.
Ferrer was 70-50.

Alcaraz is already 81-18. He is going to dominate tennis for many years on this surface.
 
Last edited:
Does Djokovic have a chance to win the FO if healthy? Sure as he has won two titles in the last four years and also the Olympics at that venue. If he doesn’t have to play both Sinner and Alcaraz back-to-back, he has a chance.

Does he have a chance to be the best player on clay which means he also wins some of the European clay Masters tournaments and is the best player for two months? I don’t think he will even try to play many tournaments and so it won’t happen.

I doubt his odds of winning the FO will be better than that of Alcaraz or Sinner by the time the tournament starts - he may not be a top 5 seed if he doesn’t play much or do well in the first half of next year.
 
socallefty said:
Does Djokovic have a chance to win the FO if healthy? Sure as he has won two titles in the last four years and also the Olympics at that venue. If he doesn’t have to play both Sinner and Alcaraz back-to-back, he has a chance.

Does he have a chance to be the best player on clay which means he also wins some of the European clay Masters tournaments and is the best player for two months? I don’t think he will even try to play many tournaments and so it won’t happen.

I doubt his odds of winning the FO will be better than that of Alcaraz or Sinner by the time the tournament starts - he may not be a top 5 seed if he doesn’t play much or do well in the first half of next year.
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Agreed on all points. Very succinct.
 
Djokovic only won ONE title this year, and it was the Olympics (the event he could never win during his prime).
If the Olympics was an indicator of who the best is, then Federer and Djokovic would have won it a long time ago!
And even when Nadal won the Olympics, it was on hardcourt, and Nadal was not the best hardcourter in the world in 2008 :whistle:
So how do you figure that Djokovic is the best claycourter in the world?
There's a huge chance we'll never see Djokovic win a clay event ever again... especially when Alcaraz matures and plays safer tennis.
Alcaraz gets better every year, while Djokovic gets worse every year...
And even Zverev is probably too good for Djokovic now at RG.
 
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