Novotna vs Martinez vs Sabatini

Best and worst of Sabatini, Martinez, Novotna


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    12

chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
I always lumped these 3 together more or less. All 3 were 1 slam winners of the Graf era, with about 30 career titles. Of the trio Sabatini had by FAR the highest expectations and fell the shortest of them.

I suspect most will pick Sabatini as the best as she has the winning record over both (11-4 Novotna, 9-7 Martinez) and she is the most famous. I am going to pick Novotna though for having the most slam finals, doing better at the most prestigious slam, and her doubles career. I think Novotna was also more competitive with the very best players minus Graf than Sabatini. Will put Martinez last for never winning the YEC, and being too much a pigeon of the top players. Also never winning a slam on her best surface, unlike Novotna and Sabatini.
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
Aside from the H2Hs, what really makes Sabatini stand out for mine is the fact that she made 18 Grand Slam SFs. That is a hell of a lot. By comparison Martinez has 12, and Novotna 9.

Sabatini's conversion rate is horrendous, and I don't want to minimise that, but the fact she was consistently there at the pointy end of big tournaments for over a decade (she made at least one Slam SF every year between 1985 and 1995) is a testament to her quality. I really do think that it puts her on another level compared to pretty much every other single-slam winner - including the two listed.
 
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chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
Aside from the H2Hs, what really makes Sabatini stand out for mine is the fact that she made 18 Grand Slam SFs. That is a hell of a lot. By comparison Martinez has 12, and Novotna 9.

Sabatini's conversion rate is horrendous, and I don't want to minimise that, but the fact she was consistently there at the pointy end of big tournaments for over a decade (she made at least one Slam SF every year between 1985 and 1995) is a testament to her quality. I really do think that it puts her on another level compared to pretty much every other single-slam winner - including the two listed.

Valid points.

I just wanted to make an additional point on the H2Hs though. Her head to head vs Novotna is basically meaningless as she played 0 matches vs Novotna in Jana's prime from 95-99, and almost all their matches in Sabatini's prime from 88-92. They also played a ton of matches on clay (not surprisingly Jana won only once, although she choked badly in losing out on a 2nd win at the 91 French where she blew a set and 5-2 lead) and only 1 on grass (which as expected Jana won easily). Her head to head vs Martinez also has many more matches in Sabatini's prime of 88-92 than Conchita's from 93-96.

I do agree on the slam semis being a key stat though.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Heart: Novotna
Head: Sabatini.

In terms of who did most to raise the profile of tennis beyond tennis fans: Sabatini without question. In no small part because of her beauty and bursting on to the scene at 14.

Which one made me cry: the untimely death of Novotna. So sad.

I enjoy your threads.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
I may be the only person I know who is an actual Conchita Martinez fan around here, but clearly she's not the answer here. She had a fantastic career - A Slam, 3 slam finals overall (including her win) on three different surfaces. 12 SFs, a ton of QFs, 33 or so tournament wins (including multiple Tier 1), 5 Fed Cup titles, Olympic medals.

But, the one thing she never did is make her presence matter to the greats of her generation. In no way would I expect her to have a winning or even .500 or even .333 record vs. the players above her, but her records vs. Graf and Seles are dismal - 1-13 and 1-20. And, it's not even the poor record - she's clearly a tier below, so of course she's going to have a considerable losing record. It's the absence of big wins, or even a singular big win - wins that might alter her opponents' legacy by denying them a Slam or other big title. Sabatini has considerable losing records against Graf and Seles, but she actually beat Graf in a Slam final. Sabatini never beat Seles in a Slam but beat her two times in the final of Rome. Novatna beat Graf and Seles in Slams - yeah only once, but still - that matters to me. Martinez, though, was never able to do that.

Martinez has a 4-14 record against ASV, and one of those wins is in a Slam semi and another in a Tier 1 final. If she could have that sort of record against Graf and Seles - just one match where it truly mattered and two more wins overall, I'd rank her considerably higher. At least she beat Graf in the final of a tournament, but it wasn't a legacy-changing tournament.

I'd rank them - 1. Sabatini, 2. Novotna, 3. Martinez - though in a broader context I put them in the same grouping.
 
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chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
Doesnt Novotna have a winning head to head with Seles? A lot of the matches post stabbing Seles but still. I think she leads 5-4. That is impressive. Of note too she only ever played Seles in slams on her worst surfaces and Seles's best, Australian and French Open. 3 times, and she has one straight set win, and two three set losses. Just imagine if they played at the U.S Open or Wimbledon ever, especialy from 96-98. Jana would have scored some more wins, at Wimbledon she probably wins every single year had they met, including 92 or 93.

Her head to head vs Hingis is also very close isnt it? And if she didnt badly choke at the end of 2 matches she should have won (Miami 97, U.S Open 98) she might have a winning record. This is key to me since Martinez and even Sabatini would never manage such a record vs peak Hingis. In fact both would be pushovers for Hingis with their playing style.

Only her head to head vs Graf is horrible, a lot of that is the ghost of Wimbledon 93 as she was playing her quite tough in 91-early 93 (slumping Graf but still).
 
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chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
If Novotna had played as relaxed and well against Graf, Davenport, and Sabatini as she did vs Seles and Hingis she would have an easy winning head to head vs Sabatini and a much closer one vs Graf and Lindsasy. Sadly the tension seemed to overwhelm her when she played Graf or Davenport, and she constantly choked (usually losing in 3 sets or 2 close sets afer blowing a lead) vs Sabatini.

Jana and Gaby both have very narrow winning head to heads vs Sanchez interestingly enough.
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
1. Sabatini
2. Novotna





3. Martinez

We've gone through this debate several times over the years and my thoughts have not changed

If Wozniacki ends her career with just the one major, which seems very likely at this point...you could have a good debate about her vs Gabby for the best 1 major winner.
 
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bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
1. Sabatini
2. Novotna





3. Martinez

We've gone through this debate several times over the years and my thoughts have not changed

If Wozniacki ends her career with just the one major, which seems very likely at this point...you could have a good debate about her vs Gabby for the best 1 major winner.

I would definitely put Martinez third, but not THAT far of a gap. There's concrete reasons to rank her below the other two, but I also think people just don't like her or are completely indifferent. She was never a player that invoked a lot of passion from fans.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
I would definitely put Martinez third, but not THAT far of a gap. There's concrete reasons to rank her below the other two, but I also think people just don't like her or are completely indifferent. She was never a player that invoked a lot of passion from fans.
I think she was hard to warm to because she looked miserable- which is unfair because she appears to have a down-turned mouth (if that makes sense) which she could do little about. And maybe a tad unlucky that in her own country, ASV was by far the bigger star.

I enjoyed watching her play generally.
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
I would definitely put Martinez third, but not THAT far of a gap. There's concrete reasons to rank her below the other two, but I also think people just don't like her or are completely indifferent. She was never a player that invoked a lot of passion from fans.

I really just feel like, in terms of fortitude and her ability to leave her mark on the competition, she really fell short in comparison. Sabatini was a stone's throw away from being #1, Novotna was always recognized as a real threat at Wimbledon. Conchita, on her best surface...was, well certainly an annoying opponent, never really imposing. Even in 1995 when she had a huge winning streak going into the French, Graf was able to just put her down on the biggest points. She was a great player, and I actually really like her. She needs to be in the HOF as far as I am concerned, but comparatively speaking she just falls very behind Gabby and Jana for me.
 

chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
1. Sabatini
2. Novotna





3. Martinez

We've gone through this debate several times over the years and my thoughts have not changed

If Wozniacki ends her career with just the one major, which seems very likely at this point...you could have a good debate about her vs Gabby for the best 1 major winner.

I think Woz is easily #1. She was two time YE#1. Sabatini and Novotna never got to #1. Sabatini never even got to #2.
 
Sabatini>Wozniaki. The Dane has been a non-factor at all but ten slams. Sabatini got to QF or better at 28 slams. Sabatini was competing with the likes of Graf, Seles and Navratilova. Wozniaki was a lame duck of a number one who was outperformed by Zvonareva in slams and only won her slam in the weakest era of all, the current WTA-minus Serena on maternity leave.

Sabatini> Martinez and Novotna too.
 

chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
Sabatini>Wozniaki. The Dane has been a non-factor at all but ten slams. Sabatini got to QF or better at 28 slams. Sabatini was competing with the likes of Graf, Seles and Navratilova. Wozniaki was a lame duck of a number one who was outperformed by Zvonareva in slams and only won her slam in the weakest era of all, the current WTA-minus Serena on maternity leave.

Sabatini> Martinez and Novotna too.

There is a lot more depth in the womens game than when Sabatini, Martienz, and Novotna played. Now you play tough opponents in the 3rd or 4th round which was never the case then, you played Judith Weisner at that point back then.
 

suwanee4712

Professional
At one point, as a devil's advocate, I made an argument to rank Jana first over Gaby. But I do believe Gaby was a slightly better and more accomplished player. Although I might actually choose Jana's career accomplishments as the one I admire the most because of Wimbledon and the doubles.

I do think Jana's game was more limited because of her lack of a reliable topspin backhand and her down the line limitations on her forehand and forehand volley. So I do believe Jana was closer to fulfilling her potential and got more out of her game.

At times, I enjoy watching Conchita. Others, I couldn't believe she was so content wasting her potential. She probably would've worked harder and achieved more back when there was less money in the game.
 
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bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
At one point, as a devil's advocate, I made an argument to rank Jana first over Gaby. But I do believe Gaby was a slightly better and more accomplished player. Although I might actually choose Jana's career accomplishments as the one I admire the most because of Wimbledon and the doubles.

I do think Jana's game was more limited because of her lack of a reliable topspin backhand and her down the line limitations on her forehand and forehand volley. So I do believe Jana was closer to fulfilling her potential and got more out of her game.

At times, I enjoy watching Conchita. Others, I couldn't believe she was so content wasting her potential. She probably would've worked harder and achieved more back when there was less money in the game.

Beyond working harder (I think she probably worked fairly hard, but it could have been more), I think she needed to sometimes flatten out her game a bit and have some aggressive play complement her base game. She loved to loop and to do high-low with the looping topspin and the slice backhand. Worked a LOT obviously, but not enough against the top players. She could actually hit semi-big, but she usually saved it for when she was forced - like a passing shot. Yeah, everyone says that 1994 Wimbledon final was against a post-prime Martina, but I still felt she played great and showed that she could hit harder and bigger and flatter (trajectory) if need be. Better fitness in the latter part of her career could have helped that - looping and slicing was a strategy, but in her later career also a defensive necessity. If she was in better position due to better fitness when it dropped a bit in her later career, she could have unloaded more often.
 
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chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
I remember watching the Canadian Open semis in 97 when Conchita was down 6-2, 4-1 (double break) to Seles and all of the suddent started hitting her forehand the way she can but is reluctant to, especialy early in points. Still constructing points and opening up the court, but finishing them off. She came all the way back to bring the 2nd set to a tiebreak, and had a set point, before losing. Probably wins if the match went to a 3rd as Seles was looking winded. I wondered why she doesnt play like that all the time, she would have a lot more success vs the top players.

Also the 2nd and some of the 3rd of the 95 French against Graf when she got more agressive and came back from 6-3, 4-1 to force a 3rd, and had break points to go up a break in the 3rd at 0-40 3-3, probably wins the match if she pulls out this game, but folded.

And the 2000 German Open when she beat Hingis was a great example of her usual base game but with controlled agression and some big forehands, surprise net forays, and backhand downs the line.

That is the way she needed to play on a regular basis, especialy against top 5 opponents, but she just wanst comfortable being agressive.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
This thread has made me watch a lot of youtube content of the three players. Sabatini's serve actually seemed to get worse over time. It looked somewhat better very early in her career. But, that's a big conclusion to make just from videos. Just my impression.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
This thread has made me watch a lot of youtube content of the three players. Sabatini's serve actually seemed to get worse over time. It looked somewhat better very early in her career. But, that's a big conclusion to make just from videos. Just my impression.
I would agree.
Also Sabatini got more defensive generally towards the end of her career and approached the net less.
 
Novotna of 95-98 would regularly beat Sabatini of 88-92 or Martinez of 93-96 so she is the best. She also had the best career in terms of results, especialy factoring in her doubles success.

Sabatini is the worst playing level wise but Martinez results wise.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Novotna of 95-98 would regularly beat Sabatini of 88-92 or Martinez of 93-96 so she is the best. She also had the best career in terms of results, especialy factoring in her doubles success.

Sabatini is the worst playing level wise but Martinez results wise.

What does that even mean? I'm not saying H2H's should be the defining factor in ranking the players, but Sabatini does have a 10-3 H2H over Novotna. Novotna of 95-98 would beat Sabatini of 88-92? That's just a conclusory statement about fictional matchups that never happened.
 
What does that even mean? I'm not saying H2H's should be the defining factor in ranking the players, but Sabatini does have a 10-3 H2H over Novotna. Novotna of 95-98 would beat Sabatini of 88-92? That's just a conclusory statement about fictional matchups that never happened.

Well as was mentioned earlier by some others Jana was not in her prime and Sabatini was in nearly all her meetings with Jana. She is lucky she never played her in 95-96 when she was already on decline and Jana the late bloomer was coming into her own. In 96 there were a couple tournaments someone like Seles destroyed Sabatini then lost to Jana, just imagine if they met.

Head to head is overrated anyway, I dont care much about it. Nadal is way up on Federer on head to head, but nearly everyone agrees Federer is the better player. I only care about overall level and performance, not head to head between two players which can be depenent on match up, luck, and a lot of other factors. I think Jana in her best years was a better player than Sabatini ever was. Better and bigger forehand, much better serve, much better volleys, better movement and athleticsm. Really everything but the backhand. If Novotna didnt choke at the end of the 98 U.S Open semis she would have beaten peak of peaks Hingis at both Wimbledon and the U.S Open in 98 and taken #1 from her, Sabatini never could have done that. She couldnt even pass the worst ever version of Graf for the #2 ranking in 91, her own best year of tennis ever.

Martinez at her best has better groundstrokes, a much better forehand, better serve, and better defensive skills and movement than Sabatini at her best too.
 
Martinez is a way lower level than the other two. Compare them by surface.

Grass: Novotna >>>>> Martinez > = Sabatini
Clay: Sabatini > = Martinez >>>> Novotna
Hard courts: Sabatini >= Novotna >>> Martinez
Carpet: Sabatini = Novotna >>>>>>>>>>>> Martinez (look at her YEC record, pathetic)
 
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