NTL players 1968 calendar

[Scott_tennis]

I am interesting in developing a complete and accurate listing of all events that the NTL players (Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales, Gimeno, Emerson and Stolle) participated in during 1968. This listing includes all NTL events, joint WCT/NTL events and open tournaments in which any or all of the NTL players participated.

Based on the McCauley book and other sources I have developed the following list of events and final results:

NTL 1968
1. 3/23-3/25 NTL Buenos Aires F Laver d Gonzales
2. 3/29-4/1 NTL Bogota F Gimeno d Stolle
3. 4/7-4/9 NTL Los Angeles CA - postponed
4. 4/10-4/14 Hollywood FL F Emerson d Rosewall
5. 4/15 Cannes Gimeno d Stolle
6. 4/18 BBC2 Wembley F Laver d Rosewall
7. 4/19-4/20 NTL Paris F Rosewall d Gimeno
8. 4/22-4/28 BHC Open Bournemouth F Rosewall d Laver
(All 6 NTL men participated)
9. 5/3-5/6 NTL Wembley F Laver d Rosewall
10. 5/13-5/18 NTL Madison Square Garden NY NY F Laver d Rosewall
11. 5/27-6/9 French Open F Rosewall d Laver
(All 6 NTL men participated)
12. 6/10-6/15 Kent Beckenham Open F Stolle d Emerson
(Stolle, Emerson and Gimeno participated)
13. 6/12-6/16 US Pro Longwood Boston MA (with WCT) F Laver d Newcombe
(The final was postponed until 9/10)
14. 6/17-6/22 Queens Open F (rained out; Graebner vs Okker)
(Laver, Stolle, Emerson and Gimeno participated)
15. 6/24-7/6 Wimbledon Open F Laver d Roche
(All 6 NTL men participated)
16. 7/9-7/15 French Pro Clay (with WCT) F Laver d Newcombe
17. 7/17-7/19 NTL Los Angeles CA F Gonzales d Laver
18. 7/24-7/26 NTL Oakland CA F Stolle d Gonzales
19. 8/8-8/11 NTL Binghamton NY F Gimeno d Stolle
20. 8/15-8/18 NTL Ft. Worth TX F Rosewall d Gimeno
21. 8/29-9/8 US Open F Ashe d Okker
(All 6 NTL men participated)
13 again. 9/10 US Pro F (see above)
22. 9/16-9/22 PSW Open F Laver d Rosewall
(All 6 NTL men participated)
23. 9/28-10/1 NTL Midland TX F Gonzales d Emerson
24. 10/4-10/7 NTL Corpus Christi TX F Laver d Gimeno
25. (Dates in Oct or Nov?) NTL Sao Paulo Laver W RR 3-0
26. (Dates in Oct or Nov?) NTL La Paz Laver W RR 3-0
27. (part of RR played on 11/1) NTL Lima Stolle W RR 3-0
28. 11/2-11/10 Buenos Aires Open F Emerson d Laver
29. 11/7 Marseille Gonzales d Rosewall
30. 11/10 Lyon Rosewall d Gonzales
31. 11/15-11/21 Wembley Tournament of Champions (with WCT)
F Rosewall d Newcombe
32. 11/27-12/1 Madison Square Garden NY NY (with WCT)
F Roche d Gonzales

A separate thread on this board mentioned an NTL Moscow tournament in August. Does anyone have results, dates or other details of that event?

Is anyone aware of any additional events held between Oakland and Binghamton or between Ft Worth and the US Open?

Any corrections or additions to the list are appreciated.

 

[Scott_tennis]

I have also found some reference to an exhibition event held in Chicago IL or Evanston IL in early December 1968 (12/3 or 12/4). Some NTL players may have been involved with this event.

Anyone with further details?

 

[jeffreyneave]

ntl team match usa v aus

laver and rosewall represented aus. gonxales , ralston, buchholz and pasarell played for usa. the aussies won.

laver beat ralston and pasarell; rosewall beat gonzales and lost to buchholz .


i THINK THE DOUBLES WERE SPLIT. ; THEREFORE AUSSIES WON 4-2 AND MATCH PLAYED AT EVANSTON DECEMBER 1968






JEFFREY

 

[AndrewTas]

1968

I am interesting in developing a complete and accurate listing of all events that the NTL players (Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales, Gimeno, Emerson and Stolle) participated in during 1968. This listing includes all NTL events, joint WCT/NTL events and open tournaments in which any or all of the NTL players participated.

Based on the McCauley book and other sources I have developed the following list of events and final results:

NTL 1968
1. 3/23-3/25 NTL Buenos Aires F Laver d Gonzales
2. 3/29-4/1 NTL Bogota F Gimeno d Stolle
3. 4/7-4/9 NTL Los Angeles CA - postponed
4. 4/10-4/14 Hollywood FL F Emerson d Rosewall
5. 4/15 Cannes Gimeno d Stolle
6. 4/18 BBC2 Wembley F Laver d Rosewall
7. 4/19-4/20 NTL Paris F Rosewall d Gimeno
8. 4/22-4/28 BHC Open Bournemouth F Rosewall d Laver
(All 6 NTL men participated)
9. 5/3-5/6 NTL Wembley F Laver d Rosewall
10. 5/13-5/18 NTL Madison Square Garden NY NY F Laver d Rosewall
11. 5/27-6/9 French Open F Rosewall d Laver
(All 6 NTL men participated)
12. 6/10-6/15 Kent Beckenham Open F Stolle d Emerson
(Stolle, Emerson and Gimeno participated)
13. 6/12-6/16 US Pro Longwood Boston MA (with WCT) F Laver d Newcombe
(The final was postponed until 9/10)
14. 6/17-6/22 Queens Open F (rained out; Graebner vs Okker)
(Laver, Stolle, Emerson and Gimeno participated)
15. 6/24-7/6 Wimbledon Open F Laver d Roche
(All 6 NTL men participated)
16. 7/9-7/15 French Pro Clay (with WCT) F Laver d Newcombe
17. 7/17-7/19 NTL Los Angeles CA F Gonzales d Laver
18. 7/24-7/26 NTL Oakland CA F Stolle d Gonzales
19. 8/8-8/11 NTL Binghamton NY F Gimeno d Stolle
20. 8/15-8/18 NTL Ft. Worth TX F Rosewall d Gimeno
21. 8/29-9/8 US Open F Ashe d Okker
(All 6 NTL men participated)
13 again. 9/10 US Pro F (see above)
22. 9/16-9/22 PSW Open F Laver d Rosewall
(All 6 NTL men participated)
23. 9/28-10/1 NTL Midland TX F Gonzales d Emerson
24. 10/4-10/7 NTL Corpus Christi TX F Laver d Gimeno
25. (Dates in Oct or Nov?) NTL Sao Paulo Laver W RR 3-0
26. (Dates in Oct or Nov?) NTL La Paz Laver W RR 3-0
27. (part of RR played on 11/1) NTL Lima Stolle W RR 3-0
28. 11/2-11/10 Buenos Aires Open F Emerson d Laver
29. 11/7 Marseille Gonzales d Rosewall
30. 11/10 Lyon Rosewall d Gonzales
31. 11/15-11/21 Wembley Tournament of Champions (with WCT)
F Rosewall d Newcombe
32. 11/27-12/1 Madison Square Garden NY NY (with WCT)
F Roche d Gonzales

A separate thread on this board mentioned an NTL Moscow tournament in August. Does anyone have results, dates or other details of that event?

Is anyone aware of any additional events held between Oakland and Binghamton or between Ft Worth and the US Open?

Any corrections or additions to the list are appreciated.

Looked at the list. According to reports there were 3 tournaments played in South America, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires and Bogota.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4291,1226358&dq=sao+paulo+tennis

Until today I didn't find the winner of Sao Paulo, but according to this report in the Melbourne Age Laver defeated Gonzales in the final of a three day tournament on March 21 (or March 20). In the next tournament played in Buenos Aires Laver also defeated Gonzales in the final.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7QYRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=f5MDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3565,4053272&dq=laver

I haven't yet found reference to the Moscow tournament and I don't think there are any other missing tournaments in the list.

Laver's win in Sao Paulo means his tournament tally has increased to 196 (+ 1 shared) from 528 tournaments.

 

[Dan Lobb]

I would like to reconcile my own following list with Scott_tennis list above.

I have the following list of 1968 pro tournaments and winners for the NTL circuit.

Lima Pro (Nov. 1-3) winner: Stolle
Buenos Aires winner: Laver
Bogota winner: Gimeno
Sao Paulo (Nov.) winner: Laver
Colonial winner: Rosewall
Binghamton winner: Gimeno
Hollywood winner: Emerson
L.A. winner: Gonzales
Oakland winner: Stolle
South Texas winner: Laver
Midland winner: Gonzales
MSG 1 (NTL) winner: Laver
Wembley Invitation (NTL) winner: Laver
Paris (NTL) winner: Rosewall
Cannes winner: Gimeno
La Paz (Nov.) winner: Laver

That is 16 events, the season started slowly in March, Emerson joined the NTL circuit in April.

So from this list we have tournament wins BEFORE OCT. 16 as follows,

1) Laver (4)
2) Gimeno (3)
3) Rosewall (2)
4) Gonzales (2)
5) Stolle (1)
6) Emerson (withdrew) (1)

It would appear that the "top four" for the NTL was determined by tournament wins.
It would appear that the "top four" of the WCT was determined by tournament wins.

Last edited: 9 minutes ago

 

[NoMercy]

I would like to reconcile my own following list with Scott_tennis list above.

I have the following list of 1968 pro tournaments and winners for the NTL circuit.

Lima Pro (Nov. 1-3) winner: Stolle
Buenos Aires winner: Laver
Bogota winner: Gimeno
Sao Paulo (Nov.) winner: Laver
Colonial winner: Rosewall
Binghamton winner: Gimeno
Hollywood winner: Emerson
L.A. winner: Gonzales
Oakland winner: Stolle
South Texas winner: Laver
Midland winner: Gonzales
MSG 1 (NTL) winner: Laver
Wembley Invitation (NTL) winner: Laver
Paris (NTL) winner: Rosewall
Cannes winner: Gimeno
La Paz (Nov.) winner: Laver

That is 16 events, the season started slowly in March, Emerson joined the NTL circuit in April.

So from this list we have tournament wins BEFORE OCT. 16 as follows,

1) Laver (4)
2) Gimeno (3)
3) Rosewall (2)
4) Gonzales (2)
5) Stolle (1)
6) Emerson (withdrew) (1)

It would appear that the "top four" for the NTL was determined by tournament wins.
It would appear that the "top four" of the WCT was determined by tournament wins.

Last edited: 9 minutes ago

First of all, Cannes was not a tournament but just a one night stand, played on Apr 14.

Second, Stolle won in Beckenham too.

Third, on Oct 16 They chose Emerson.
Not Gimeno, Not Stolle, but Emerson.

 

[Dan Lobb]

First of all, Cannes was not a tournament but just a one night stand, played on Apr 14.

Second, Stolle won in Beckenham too.

Third, on Oct 16 They chose Emerson.
Not Gimeno, Not Stolle, but Emerson.

Emerson withdrew.
Beckenham was not an NTL event, where did you get that idea?
I think that I have included all the NTL events above.

 

[NoMercy]

Emerson withdrew.
Beckenham was not an NTL event, where did you get that idea?
I think that I have included all the NTL events above.

Emerson withdrew after Wembley, until Wembley he was supposed to play.

 

[Scott_tennis]

First off - hard to believe 14 years have passed since the original post in this thread. Thank you Dan for bringing it forward.

In terms of the NTL overall calendar for men’s players in 1968 - there have been some revisions since the original 2009 post due to corrections and additional information received from various other researchers and sources.

By my count the NTL men appeared in 43 various events in 1968, from late March until early December (roughly nine month season)
I have not included on this list any women-only NTL events.

1 March 18-20 Sao Paulo (N)
2 March 22-24 Buenos Aires (N)
3 March 27-28 Bogota (N)
4 April 11-14 Hollywood FL (N)
5 April 14 Cannes (ONE)
6 April 16,18-19 Paris (N)
7 April 17 Wembley (BBC2) (N)
8 April 20 Bordeaux (ONE)
9 April 21 Toulouse (ONE)
10 April 21 Pau (ONE)
11 April 22 Lille (ONE)
12 April 22-27 Bournemouth (O)
13 May 2-6 Wembley (N)
14 May 15,17-18 New York MSG (N)
15 May 27-June 9 French (O)
16 June 10-15 Kent Beckenham (O)
17 June 12-16 US Pro Longwood (N/W)
18 June 17-22 Queen’s Club (O)
19 June 24-July 6 Wimbledon (O)
20 July 9-15 French Pro Paris (N/W)
21 July 17-19 Los Angeles (N) (rescheduled from Apr 7-10)
22 July 24-25 Oakland (N)
23 August 3 Hawaii (ONE)
24 August 5 Hawaii (ONE)
25 August 9-11 Binghamton (N)
26 August 12 McAllen (ONE)
27 August 15-18 Fort Worth (N)
28 August 29-Sept 8 Forest Hills (O)
17 Sept 10 US Pro finals (N/W) - rain delayed from June
29 Sept 16-22 PSW Los Angeles (O)
30 Sept 27-29 Midland (N)
31 Oct 4-6 Corpus Christi (N)
32 Oct 12-13 Fresno Stolle and non-NTL pros
33 Oct 21-23 Sao Paulo (N)
34 Oct 25-27 La Paz (N)
35 Oct 31-Nov 2 Lima (N)
36 Nov 2-10 Buenos Aires (O)
37 Nov 6 Marseille (ONE)
38 Nov 7 Lyon (ONE)
39 Nov 10 Metz (ONE)
40 Nov 15-21 Wembley Kramer (N/W)
41 Nov 28-30 New York MSG (N/W)
42 Dec 3-4 Evanston (N/W)
43 Dec 7-10 Nashville (N/W)

(N) = NTL only
(O) = Open
(ONE) = One night event
(N/W) - NTL/WCT event with players from each group

43 total events:

8 Open tournaments
17 NTL only tournaments (round robin or knockout with draws of 4+)
6 NTL and WCT pro events (US Pro, French Pro, Wembley/Kramer (Nov), New York MSG (Nov), Evanston and Nashville
11 One night events with two players or with four players and no final (McAllen)
1 tournament not affiliated with NTL or WCT (Fresno; Stolle was sole NTL participant)

 

[Dan Lobb]

First off - hard to believe 14 years have passed since the original post in this thread. Thank you Dan for bringing it forward.

In terms of the NTL overall calendar for men’s players in 1968 - there have been some revisions since the original 2009 post due to corrections and additional information received from various other researchers and sources.

By my count the NTL men appeared in 43 various events in 1968, from late March until early December (roughly nine month season)
I have not included on this list any women-only NTL events.

1 March 18-20 Sao Paulo (N)
2 March 22-24 Buenos Aires (N)
3 March 27-28 Bogota (N)
4 April 11-14 Hollywood FL (N)
5 April 14 Cannes (ONE)
6 April 16,18-19 Paris (N)
7 April 17 Wembley (BBC2) (N)
8 April 20 Bordeaux (ONE)
9 April 21 Toulouse (ONE)
10 April 21 Pau (ONE)
11 April 22 Lille (ONE)
12 April 22-27 Bournemouth (O)
13 May 2-6 Wembley (N)
14 May 15,17-18 New York MSG (N)
15 May 27-June 9 French (O)
16 June 10-15 Kent Beckenham (O)
17 June 12-16 US Pro Longwood (N/W)
18 June 17-22 Queen’s Club (O)
19 June 24-July 6 Wimbledon (O)
20 July 9-15 French Pro Paris (N/W)
21 July 17-19 Los Angeles (N) (rescheduled from Apr 7-10)
22 July 24-25 Oakland (N)
23 August 3 Hawaii (ONE)
24 August 5 Hawaii (ONE)
25 August 9-11 Binghamton (N)
26 August 12 McAllen (ONE)
27 August 15-18 Fort Worth (N)
28 August 29-Sept 8 Forest Hills (O)
17 Sept 10 US Pro finals (N/W) - rain delayed from June
29 Sept 16-22 PSW Los Angeles (O)
30 Sept 27-29 Midland (N)
31 Oct 4-6 Corpus Christi (N)
32 Oct 12-13 Fresno Stolle and non-NTL pros
33 Oct 21-23 Sao Paulo (N)
34 Oct 25-27 La Paz (N)
35 Oct 31-Nov 2 Lima (N)
36 Nov 2-10 Buenos Aires (O)
37 Nov 6 Marseille (ONE)
38 Nov 7 Lyon (ONE)
39 Nov 10 Metz (ONE)
40 Nov 15-21 Wembley Kramer (N/W)
41 Nov 28-30 New York MSG (N/W)
42 Dec 3-4 Evanston (N/W)
43 Dec 7-10 Nashville (N/W)

(N) = NTL only
(O) = Open
(ONE) = One night event
(N/W) - NTL/WCT event with players from each group

43 total events:

8 Open tournaments
17 NTL only tournaments (round robin or knockout with draws of 4+)
6 NTL and WCT pro events (US Pro, French Pro, Wembley/Kramer (Nov), New York MSG (Nov), Evanston and Nashville
11 One night events with two players or with four players and no final (McAllen)
1 tournament not affiliated with NTL or WCT (Fresno; Stolle was sole NTL participant)

Thanks for this list.
For purposes of identifying the "top four" NTL players, I presume that only the (N) or NTL only events until Oct. 4-6 at Corpus Christi would be included to rank the players.

 

[Dan Lobb]

Extracting from the Scott_tennis list above, we have the following NTL only events (including one-night events) and known winners up to Oct. 4-6 at Corpus Christi, the "top four" designation being made about Oct. 15 for the grand finale at MSG.

1 March 18-20 Sao Paulo (N) winner: Laver
2 March 22-24 Buenos Aires (N) winner: Laver
3 March 27-28 Bogota (N) winner: Gimeno
4 April 11-14 Hollywood FL (N) winner: Emerson
5 April 14 Cannes (ONE) winner: Gimeno
6 April 16,18-19 Paris (N) winner: Rosewall
7 April 17 Wembley (BBC2) (N) winner:
8 April 20 Bordeaux (ONE) winner:
9 April 21 Toulouse (ONE) winner:
10 April 21 Pau (ONE)
11 April 22 Lille (ONE)
13 May 2-6 Wembley (N) winner: Laver
14 May 15,17-18 New York MSG (N) winner: Laver
21 July 17-19 Los Angeles (N) (rescheduled from Apr 7-10) winner: Gonzales
22 July 24-25 Oakland (N) winner: Stolle
23 August 3 Hawaii (ONE)
24 August 5 Hawaii (ONE)
25 August 9-11 Binghamton (N) winner: Gimeno
26 August 12 McAllen (ONE)
27 August 15-18 Fort Worth (N) winner: Rosewall
30 Sept 27-29 Midland (N) winner: Gonzales
31 Oct 4-6 Corpus Christi (N) winner: Laver

 

[urban]

Please, Dan. Let it go. MSG wasn't the Grand Finale nor a ranking event, they played afterwards through. Scott and me (and i think No Mercy, too) had access to the McCall papers fom an US University archive. There was no point ranking for 1968, just the summary of prize money won and win-loss records.

 

[Dan Lobb]

Please, Dan. Let it go. MSG wasn't the Grand Finale nor a ranking event, they played afterwards through. Scott and me (and i think No Mercy, too) had access to the McCall papers fom an US University archive. There was no point ranking for 1968, just the summary of prize money won and win-loss records.

I think that the MSG was the grand finale that year, in the same sense that 8-man finals have been the season-ending event in recent times. The WCT had no further events after MSG in 1968, it was their final event.

The choice specified "top four", not just any old pros who wanted to play. So that is the same system which has prevailed ever since. Kramer established the Masters just two years later, and this MSG season ending event was clearly the template for Kramer's year end event.

Here is the Wiki description of the origins of the ATP finals.

"The ATP Finals is the fifth iteration of a championship which began in 1970. It was originally known as the Masters Grand Prix and was part of the Grand Prix tennis circuit. It was organised by the International Lawn Tennis Federation (ILTF) and ran alongside the competing WCT Finals. The Masters was a year-end showpiece event between the best players on the men's tour, but did not count for any world ranking points."

ATP Finals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And the precursor of the 1970 Masters was the 1968 and 1969 MSG combined WCT/NTL event. Here is the description from the Wiki article on the pro tournament series.

"In 1968–69, the two pro tennis tours, the NTL and the WCT, each had a tournament series ranking list which contributed four players from each tour to a combined final tournament at the Madison Square Garden. Tony Roche won the 1968 event, and Rod Laver won the 1969 event. Beginning in 1970, the ILTF authorized Kramer to arrange a year-end championship in which the pros with the highest tournament series points competed for the title of Grand Prix champion. This event was held in various locations and finally remained at Madison Square Garden from 1977 to 1989. In 1990, the ATP took over running the event and started awarding ranking points for the 8 qualifiers based on their results in the tournament. Currently, the championship is known as the "ATP Finals"."

Tennis pro tours and tournament ranking series - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Dan Lobb]

Please, Dan. Let it go. MSG wasn't the Grand Finale nor a ranking event, they played afterwards through. Scott and me (and i think No Mercy, too) had access to the McCall papers fom an US University archive. There was no point ranking for 1968, just the summary of prize money won and win-loss records.

Urban, did you ever wonder WHY there are and have always been since 1970 EIGHT (8) players in the year-end event?

The answer is right here, in those 1968/1969 MSG finals, and MSG was also the location of the year-end final from 1977-1989.

The template is clearly there right in front of our eyes.

The 1968/69 MSG events were not ranking events, but they did decide the combined contract pro champion for those years.

 

[urban]

The selection in those day by promoters and tournament directors was a matter of marketability, not actual performance. They wanted the bigger name and drawing card to sell tickets. In the US, for instance, Gonzalez and Emerson were bigger names than Gimeno, and so they wer in., regardless of form or performance. In those cited McCall Papers, i have read a letter exchange betwenn McCall and a local director, who wanted to stage a pro match in the summer of 1969 with NTL players. McCall offered him Laver plus X, the director could pick one other from the guys. He chose not Rosewall, not Emmo, but old Gorgo, the still most popular US player. When Fred Podesta staged the Super Series of winner-takes-all matches in early 1970, he did not pick Laver vs Roche, the regular choice 1 vs. 2 for the first Garden match, but Laver vs. old Gorgo, to fill the Garden. When they staged a pro-am Australia-USA Davis Cup tie at Chicago, Evanston in late 1968, the whole event was built in the newspapers around the clash between pro king Laver and amateur king Ashe. The match didn't happen, because Ashe got injured.

 

[Dan Lobb]

The selection in those day by promoters and tournament directors was a matter of marketability, not actual performance. They wanted the bigger name and drawing card to sell tickets. In the US, for instance, Gonzalez and Emerson were bigger names than Gimeno, and so they wer in., regardless of form or performance. In those cited McCall Papers, i have read a letter exchange betwenn McCall and a local director, who wanted to stage a pro match in the summer of 1969 with NTL players. McCall offered him Laver plus X, the director could pick one other from the guys. He chose not Rosewall, not Emmo, but old Gorgo, the still most popular US player. When Fred Podesta staged the Super Series of winner-takes-all matches in early 1970, he did not pick Laver vs Roche, the regular choice 1 vs. 2 for the first Garden match, but Laver vs. old Gorgo, to fill the Garden. When they staged a pro-am Australia-USA Davis Cup tie at Chicago, Evanston in late 1968, the whole event was built in the newspapers around the clash between pro king Laver and amateur king Ashe. The match didn't happen, because Ashe got injured.

Well, you have brought us back to the point of these posts, how did the NTL choose the "top four" (according to McCauley) players to participate in the MSG final in December.

It is clear that for the WCT, the top four players in terms of tournaments won were chosen.

For the NTL, the final selection of players was also on the basis of tournaments won.

Emerson was an initial choice in Oct, but he withdrew. Emerson was the new big name for the NTL, so of course they would want him in the mix. Also the WCT would want Roche and Newcombe in the final, who were also the top money signings. These big money signings would earn some money towards their guarantees. Roche and Newcombe earned well below their guarantees that first year. Roche was guaranteed $125,000 annually, Newcombe was guaranteed $135,000 annually. The balance came out of Hunt's pocket.

But Emerson was clearly injured and unavailable and he predictably withdrew, leaving the top 4 tournament winners in the final.

 

[NoMercy]

Urban, did you ever wonder WHY there are and have always been since 1970 EIGHT (8) players in the year-end event?

The answer is right here, in those 1968/1969 MSG finals, and MSG was also the location of the year-end final from 1977-1989.

The template is clearly there right in front of our eyes.

The 1968/69 MSG events were not ranking events, but they did decide the combined contract pro champion for those years.

The 1969 Madison Square Garden Invitational (yes, also this one was an invitational) was played in May and the players was chosen in April. Definitely not a final as they barely played any pro tournaments at that point of the year.

Raymond Moore def not a top4 in WCT in any way

Regarding the “always 8 players field“ in the year end event, I would suggest you to check the Masters of 1970, 1971, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985 or even the 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986 WCT finals.

 

[Scott_tennis]

Well, you have brought us back to the point of these posts, how did the NTL choose the "top four" (according to McCauley) players to participate in the MSG final in December.

It is clear that for the WCT, the top four players in terms of tournaments won were chosen.

For the NTL, the final selection of players was also on the basis of tournaments won.

Emerson was an initial choice in Oct, but he withdrew. Emerson was the new big name for the NTL, so of course they would want him in the mix. Also the WCT would want Roche and Newcombe in the final, who were also the top money signings. These big money signings would earn some money towards their guarantees. Roche and Newcombe earned well below their guarantees that first year. Roche was guaranteed $125,000 annually, Newcombe was guaranteed $135,000 annually. The balance came out of Hunt's pocket.

But Emerson was clearly injured and unavailable and he predictably withdrew, leaving the top 4 tournament winners in the final.

Dec 05, 1968, page 32 - The Sydney Morning Herald at Newspapers.com - Newspapers.com

View the digital scanned newspaper from The Sydney Morning Herald dated Dec 05, 1968, page 32.

www.newspapers.com

Based on this article....the guarantee figures for Newcombe and Roche were for three years, so their 1968 guarantees were $40,000 and $35,000 respectively,

Newcombe and Roche each earned prize money greater than their guarantees in 1968.

I think I recall reading in a separate article quoting Mike Davies that Barthes was the only player of the WCT "Handsome Eight" who earned less than his original guarantee for 1968.

 

[Dan Lobb]

Dec 05, 1968, page 32 - The Sydney Morning Herald at Newspapers.com - Newspapers.com

View the digital scanned newspaper from The Sydney Morning Herald dated Dec 05, 1968, page 32.

www.newspapers.com

Based on this article....the guarantee figures for Newcombe and Roche were for three years, so their 1968 guarantees were $40,000 and $35,000 respectively,

Newcombe and Roche each earned prize money greater than their guarantees in 1968.

I think I recall reading in a separate article quoting Mike Davies that Barthes was the only player of the WCT "Handsome Eight" who earned less than his original guarantee for 1968.

Well, there are various reports,

With the US Open underway, a look at end of ‘shamateur’ tennis - Wilmington News Journal

The hoopla surrounding the annual American tennis championships, the U.S. Open, is a far cry from the public and private debate that accompanied the national tournament 50 years ago this month. In 1967, both the singles and doubles tournaments — men and women — were restricted to amateurs, the...

www.wnewsj.com

"In early January 1968, promoter Dave Dixon, who was bankrolled by oilman and American Football League founder Lamar Hunt, welcomed Australian amateurs Newcombe and Tony Roche to the pro ranks. They joined what Dixon called the “Handsome Eight,” which included six other pros — Roger Taylor, Nickki Pilic, Earl Buchholz, Dennis Ralston, Pierre Barthes and Cliff Drysdale. Dixon guaranteed Newcombe $135,000 annually and Roche, $125,000, a sum equal to the salary of Willie Mays in 1968 — the highest then in Major League Baseball."

In this article Dixon claims that Newcombe received the biggest ever contract in history and would make $200,000 in the first year.

St. Petersburg Times - Google News Archive Search

However, your numbers appear to be in line with this source below, and Newk's guarantee stated to be $121,500 over three years. That would put it well below the previous record for a two-year contract of $125,000 given to Hoad in 1957. Laver was $110,000 for a three year period.

The Age - Google News Archive Search

Ramanathan Krishnan was offered a guarantee of $150,000 for a three year period by Kramer, which may be the largest ever amount on offer.

 

[Dan Lobb]

The 1969 Madison Square Garden Invitational (yes, also this one was an invitational) was played in May and the players was chosen in April. Definitely not a final as they barely played any pro tournaments at that point of the year.

Raymond Moore def not a top4 in WCT in any way

Regarding the “always 8 players field“ in the year end event, I would suggest you to check the Masters of 1970, 1971, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985 or even the 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986 WCT finals.

So 8 was the standard number? Went from 6 (1970) to 7 (1971) to 8.

Here is the description of format from

ATP Finals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The format described above has been in place for all editions of the tournament except the following years:

• 1970–71: All round robin (no groups), no semifinals or finals, the winner was decided based on round-robin standings.
• 1982–84: 12-player three-round single-elimination tournament (no round robin), the top four seeds received byes in the first round.
• 1985: 16-player four-round single-elimination tournament (no round robin), no byes."

YearsChampionships name
1970–89 Masters Grand Prix
1990–99 ATP Tour World Championships
2000–08 Tennis Masters Cup
2009–16 ATP World Tour Finals
2017– ATP Finals

 

[Dan Lobb]

The 1969 Madison Square Garden Invitational (yes, also this one was an invitational) was played in May and the players was chosen in April. Definitely not a final as they barely played any pro tournaments at that point of the year.

Raymond Moore def not a top4 in WCT in any way

Regarding the “always 8 players field“ in the year end event, I would suggest you to check the Masters of 1970, 1971, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985 or even the 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986 WCT finals.

Here is the 1969 version, in which Laver defeated Emerson in the final. Again, this looks like a combined NTL/WCT championship, with Newcombe strangely absent. 8 man format.

Again, this was not an invitational.

The Bryan Times - Google News Archive Search

 

[NoMercy]

Here is the 1969 version, in which Laver defeated Emerson in the final. Again, this looks like a combined NTL/WCT championship, with Newcombe strangely absent. 8 man format.

Again, this was not an invitational.

The Bryan Times - Google News Archive Search

Definitely an invitational

Apr 15, 1969, page 35 - Stockton Evening and Sunday Record at Newspapers.com - Newspapers.com

View the digital scanned newspaper from Stockton Evening and Sunday Record dated Apr 15, 1969, page 35.

www.newspapers.com

 

[Dan Lobb]

Definitely an invitational

Apr 15, 1969, page 35 - Stockton Evening and Sunday Record at Newspapers.com - Newspapers.com

View the digital scanned newspaper from Stockton Evening and Sunday Record dated Apr 15, 1969, page 35.

www.newspapers.com

Here is the report,
"A select field of eight will shoot for a first place prize of $15,000 largest winners' prize in tennis history in the Madison Square Garden Invitation Tournament May 15-17, the Garden announced Tuesday. The invited eight include Rod Laver, Andres Gimeno, Pancho Gonzales and Roy Emerson of the National Tennis League and Tony Roche, Ray Moore, Marty Riessen and Dennis Ralston of World Championship Tennis. "

That does not sound like an invitational except in the sense that both circuits were invited to present their "top four" players. It was not an "open" event to just any pro.

 

[NoMercy]

Here is the report,
"A select field of eight will shoot for a first place prize of $15,000 largest winners' prize in tennis history in the Madison Square Garden Invitation Tournament May 15-17, the Garden announced Tuesday. The invited eight include Rod Laver, Andres Gimeno, Pancho Gonzales and Roy Emerson of the National Tennis League and Tony Roche, Ray Moore, Marty Riessen and Dennis Ralston of World Championship Tennis. "

That does not sound like an invitational except in the sense that both circuits were invited to present their "top four" players. It was not an "open" event to just any pro.

It sounds like an invitational at 100% rate.
It’s in the name of the tournament itself.
There is no merit in being invited, they just invited the ones they wanted to invite (or the available ones).
As an invitational works.

 

[Dan Lobb]

It sounds like an invitational at 100% rate.
It’s in the name of the tournament itself.
There is no merit in being invited, they just invited the ones they wanted to invite (or the available ones).
As an invitational works.

An invitational to the four top players from each circuit.

 

[NoMercy]

An invitational to the four top players from each circuit.

An invitational with Raymond Moore and without Rosewall and Newcombe.

 

[Dan Lobb]

An invitational with Raymond Moore and without Rosewall and Newcombe.

The field and the money look good, "largest winners' prize in tennis history"

"Eight in Rich Tennis Event NEW YORK (AP) A select field of eight will shoot for a first place prize of $15,000 largest winners' prize in tennis history in the Madison Square Garden Invitation Tournament May 15-17, the Garden announced Tuesday. The invited eight include Rod Laver, Andres Gimeno, Pancho Gonzales and Roy Emerson of the National Tennis League and Tony Roche, Ray Moore, Marty Riessen and Dennis Ralston of World Championship Tennis. "

Newcombe was busy elsewhere,

1969 Italian Open (tennis) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Roche made the trip back to N.Y. for the MSG, but not Newcombe.

Rosewall was also busy,

29 April-5 May [4]

1969 WCT Midland Midland, United States Singles - Doubles

Ken Rosewall 5-7 6-1 7-5

Pancho Gonzales

Andrés Gimeno Fred Stolle

Rosewall and Newcombe did poorly in the previous event at MSG.

 

[NoMercy]

The field and the money look good, "largest winners' prize in tennis history"

"Eight in Rich Tennis Event NEW YORK (AP) A select field of eight will shoot for a first place prize of $15,000 largest winners' prize in tennis history in the Madison Square Garden Invitation Tournament May 15-17, the Garden announced Tuesday. The invited eight include Rod Laver, Andres Gimeno, Pancho Gonzales and Roy Emerson of the National Tennis League and Tony Roche, Ray Moore, Marty Riessen and Dennis Ralston of World Championship Tennis. "

Newcombe was busy elsewhere,

1969 Italian Open (tennis) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Roche made the trip back to N.Y. for the MSG, but not Newcombe.

Rosewall was also busy,

29 April-5 May [4]

1969 WCT Midland Midland, United States Singles - Doubles

Ken Rosewall 5-7 6-1 7-5

Pancho Gonzales

Andrés Gimeno Fred Stolle

Rosewall and Newcombe did poorly in the previous event at MSG.

Midland was played 3-5 Oct 1969.
Please, don’t post Wikipedia in reply to me.
Wikipedia is trash, garbage.

And yes, they were busy elsewhere.
They were not invited because they were not available. Not sure what idea you have about invitational events, but if I organize an invitational tournament, I try to get the best around so it can be successful.

So they always try to get the best (for their pockets) players according to what is available.

 

[Dan Lobb]

Midland was played 3-5 Oct 1969.
Please, don’t post Wikipedia in reply to me.
Wikipedia is trash, garbage.

And yes, they were busy elsewhere.
They were not invited because they were not available. Not sure what idea you have about invitational events, but if I organize an invitational tournament, I try to get the best around so it can be successful.

So they always try to get the best (for their pockets) players according to what is available.

The concept behind MSG in both 1968 and 1969 was to get the top 4 players from each of the NTL and the WCT to play off for a combined contract pro championship.

That concept was expanded beginning in 1970 with the idea of getting all the pros, including the many national association pros, together for an 8-man final, which is still the concept being used today. I know that you do not like Wiki, but there have been some outstanding editors in the tennis articles.
Here is the concept for the 1970-1989 era from the Wiki article,

"The Masters was a year-end showpiece event between the best players on the men's tour, but did not count for any world ranking points."
This description could also be used to describe the 1968-69 MSG event.

Sure, some players skipped the 8-man MSG championship, but that has always been the case. Look at what happened in 1970, here from the Wiki article,

"The best six players from the 1970 Grand Prix circuit ranking qualified for the singles event. Cliff Richey, the winner of the Grand Prix ranking, could not participate due to illness. John Newcombe was the first replacement as the number seven ranked but was unable to play which meant that Jan Kodes, ranked eight, completed the field. Stan Smith won the singles title in the round robin format and earned $15,000 first-prize money."

Again, there is that pesky $15,000 number, the same number as the 1969 MSG combined pro title.
Do you still believe that is a coincidence?